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Discussion Starter #1
How I've seen the instinctual variants applied is completely disconnected from the Enneagram type. It generally is a description completely independent of the Enneagram type and not aligning with motivations at all but where your focus is. I would be tempted to say that most of the instinctual variant descriptions I've seen are completely based off your lifestyle. Typewatch seems to not truly connect them, and many people rely on their descriptions.

Naranjo gave a very different description of instinctual variants in context of the Enneagram type, making the two typologies dependent off one and other. Here are notes from a workshop: http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/NaranjoSubtypes.pdf

What are your thoughts?
 

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I'm a SP/SO 3 and I think the SP 3 description fits me to a T. I definitely have that overconfidence, and I'm definitely not as pleasing to be around as any other 3 I know. They're all a little more charming, but I'm much more confident, most of my fried think I have some sort of astronomical self esteem, I definitely don't let on about my actual insecurities. I want to feel safe that no one can ever say anything negative about me.

Very interesting article...thank you for sharing!
Why not apply it to the MBTI then? SP INTP should be different than an SO INTP, right? I don't see why it is attached to the Enneagram. Descriptions are great, but they don't answer how the core value is applied differently past your lifestyle. I'm a SO/SP 1 and I can seem very much like an SX1 when in a relationship.
 

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Why not apply it to the MBTI then? SP INTP should be different than an SO INTP, right? I don't see why it is attached to the Enneagram. Descriptions are great, but they don't answer how the core value is applied differently past your lifestyle. I'm a SO/SP 1 and I can seem very much like an SX1 when in a relationship.
That's a really good idea! Too bad I don't have the slightest clue what MBTI type I am. And isn't your variant just ranked in how prominent each one is? So you have traits of each one, or am I wrong?
 

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That's a really good idea! Too bad I don't have the slightest clue what MBTI type I am. And isn't your variant just ranked in how prominent each one is? So you have traits of each one, or am I wrong?
One of them is supposed to be largely ignored for most. How they're applied to you is the real question. If they're applied to your Enneagram type as the pairing of the two typologies seems to imply then they must be a different approach to the same overall desire, and those definitions not connected to the Etype are misleading and incredibly insufficient. Each type is fundamentally the core alone and everything else is up to the individual, and you can't really connect the two otherwise.
 

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Why not apply it to the MBTI then? SP INTP should be different than an SO INTP, right? I don't see why it is attached to the Enneagram. Descriptions are great, but they don't answer how the core value is applied differently past your lifestyle. I'm a SO/SP 1 and I can seem very much like an SX1 when in a relationship.
I agree with applying it to the MBTI--I think instincts can actually skew your results, which I'll talk about in just a sec.

First, I am fairly sure I am sp/sx. (It's actually a toss-up between sp and sx. I match the sx/sp general descriptions better, but I personally feel my health, money, and nutrition issues more than others so I call myself sp.) I first deduced my stacking from general descriptions of the instincts (at Typewatch and other places), and I can indeed see this mirrored in the descriptions of stackings specific to Type.

As to the MBTI, I'm actually an ENTP, although I always test as ISTP. I actually believe that sp/sx and the resulting withdrawing "magic inside my head" leads me to test out as an "I" (and I do think of myself as being introverted). I also test out as an "S" because I am uncharacteristically in tune with my body and environment for an Si-deficient ENTP.

I really, really like Naranjo's descriptions, btw. For me, they are quite accurate, particularly the bolded sections:

Self-Preservation: Family (doesn't need to be "blood" family). Very earthy, sensuous, focused on tastes,
colors, tactile stimulation
; a little cynical like the Eight, not so gullible; counting on one another is
important; very tender, family man. Pain is not felt directly; transforms shit to cream (then might say,
"Not enough cream!")
. More for oneself, more opportunistic. Good at business. Epicurean (also applies a
little bit to the Social subtype). A bit more selfish. (Tells story of man who put ads in the papers in France
offering financial advice for widows at a time when it was difficult for women to invest, when they were
required to have a lawyer or some mediation. This man offered his "fatherly" service and a little
romance, took them to his country house, then poisoned them, cut them into pieces and burned them.
He was a very respected, law-abiding citizen, who "only did it to get money for my childrens' education.") [WTF?! This is NOT indicative of sp7]

Sexual: Suggestibility. More extraterrestrial; actually not very sexual—more poetic, more the dreamer. The "charmed charmer." Prestidigitator. More narcissistic. Like being in love, more enthusiastic
("Tomorrow my enthusiasm might take me in another direction"), mania. Not so much into pleasures of
hist world, more extraterrestrial. May not be very sexual in the literal sense.


Social: Service. More ambitious, Six-ish, willing to accept limitations in service of recognition; also very
helpful/giving of love in search of recognition; sweetness in exchange for service. Creating an imaginary
"perfectionism" (Dickens almost killed himself with hard work). "Good people," do-gooders. Echoes the
Two a bit, "seducing" the world. A bit of an Epicurean, a sense of sensationalism (Walt Whitman).
Monkey mind
 

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Naranjo's description of a Sexual Four fits me very well. Competitive, hateful, angry envy does describe me in a sense. This concerns things I want or want to be. This feeling isn't directed toward others who have these things, toward the things themselves, or towards myself for lacking them. I simply feel that I have been denied what I deserve.
 

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Yes, the description of a Sexual Seven is spot on ;) I didn't identify as Sx 7 at first, because I'm not very sexual in the literal sense, not overly concerned with relationships, an artistic dreamer and so on.
 
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Yes, the description of a Sexual Seven is spot on ;) I didn't identify as Sx 7 at first, because I'm not very sexual in the literal sense, not overly concerned with relationships, an artistic dreamer and so on.
Were you referring to Naranjo's? Take note that those are only notes through the link.
 

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Were you referring to Naranjo's? Take note that those are only notes through the link.
Yes, that one. I'm pretty sure I'm Sx/Sp, and reading that only confirmed my thoughts.
 

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I'm not sure I understand exactly what the "steam-rolled" bit means, or the "Not original instinctual situation" statement.

wonder if there are any descriptions of 9 sx that include positive attributes...
 

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@Wake, you might find this insightful: On the Nature of the Enneagram Subtypes

I really like Susan Rhodes' approach to the enneagram. She goes into great detail in here about subtypes/instincts and different enneagram theorists' take on them, so you can get a pretty comprehensive view of the assorted theories.

(@Arienette, you might want to check it out, too. She talks about Gurdjieff and the fourth way and the enneagram as a process.)
 

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@Wake

I read it but I don't know. I smile like a SP six, bark like a Sx six (but I'm very insecure and anxious on the inside) and I couldn't relate one bit to So six. In fact "I despise that kind of thing!!!"...would be correct.

I could relate a lot to the righteous fury of Sx 1. I also related well to Sp 4. Not much to other type descriptions thou...


I think what others saw as "SO vibe" in me was actually the SP 6. This would mean Sp/sx or sx/sp.


ugh...would being very concerned about how attractive I am or more exactly concerned about how unattractive and how it isn't enough how well I pulled myself together..the need to be self reliant , independent, critical thinking, strong, willful and so on be sx? -.- despite not being overly concerned about how physiclly attractive my partner is...I'm very concerned about my own physical attractiveness....its kind of shameful and maybe superficial...but there it is.

It isn't just the physical thou. I need to "have it together"...on the inside as well.

I hide this from everyone...but myeah..first time I talk about it...
 

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Maybe this is why I seem Introverted at times. I've known that I am not at all Sx - Sx is definitely my third variant. Although I've had people tell me I could be So/Sx before. o_O I cannot relate to Sx, though. I have been debating whether I am So/Sp or Sp/So.

I relate to the Sp description of Six. Then So. I think I am, strangely enough, an Sp/So 6w7 ENFP.

And many things have tried to type me as INFP. o__o I know I'm not Introverted, though. Perhaps the fact that I am Sp/So touches on this.
 

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Naranjo's descriptions of the E4 subtypes are interesting. I have thought of myself as a Social four (really connecting with the wanting and needing to be accepted but feeling different and unacceptable inclinations of E4) with a bit of self-preservation (a clash between perseverance and self-defeating behaviour) thrown in. After reading these descriptions, I still relate most to the Social four but surprisingly relate more to the sexual instinct (jealousy and wanting what I see in others but feel is missing in myself). This has helped me reconsider my variant stacking, so thank you for posting.
 

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How I've seen the instinctual variants applied is completely disconnected from the Enneagram type. It generally is a description completely independent of the Enneagram type and not aligning with motivations at all but where your focus is. I would be tempted to say that most of the instinctual variant descriptions I've seen are completely based off your lifestyle. Typewatch seems to not truly connect them, and many people rely on their descriptions.

Naranjo gave a very different description of instinctual variants in context of the Enneagram type, making the two typologies dependent off one and other. Here are notes from a workshop: http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/NaranjoSubtypes.pdf

What are your thoughts?
Thanks for posting that PDF, I'm actually in the process of coding the subtype segment of the 2nd version of the enneagram quiz right now. :p
 

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Ok this really confirms that I'm a social type 4:

"Critical Commentator (shame/honor): Social acceptance or recognition brings honor & meaning; not
belonging brings shame. The tension between needing
to be socially correct & personally authentic > an aura
of reserve. Need to “speak their truth”—are often the
emotional truth-tellers in a group. But critical like 1s; must
learn not to pressure themselves too much to be authentic
& also not to be too critical or demand too much emotional
intensity."

Thanks for the link.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Hmm... as I read and think about this topic more I get the feeling as though there is both a physically inherent attribute to subtyping this and also a psychological one changing how you apply your core motivation, perhaps varying from others in some way based on how you became your Enneagram type. Thanks, @brainheart for the link. Susan Rhodes gives much insight to topics though I don't always agree with her.
 

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Naranjo's description of a Sexual Four fits me very well. Competitive, hateful, angry envy does describe me in a sense. This concerns things I want or want to be. This feeling isn't directed toward others who have these things, toward the things themselves, or towards myself for lacking them. I simply feel that I have been denied what I deserve.
Yes, exactly. Ironically, as I read your post and Naranjo's description I'm listening to one of my favorite songs which has the refrain/cry/scream, I thought I would be more than this. That is the feeling, the indignation, the fury- things are supposed to be different for me, I should have had parents who encouraged me musically, I should have been put in ballet lessons, I should have been able to go to this school, etc, I have these talents which were never brought to fruition because I didn't get the encouragement others got.

 

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