Personality Cafe banner

1 - 7 of 7 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,856 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I want to open with the statement that my brother (whose name is Elias and with which I will refer to him) has expressed the desire to speak to me on a daily basis, and that I will give you some background information before I get into my inquiries. He is four years my subordinate, and I know that part of him looks up to me as a figure of success. Elias is a quiet teenager, he never cried as a child. I don't really express it to him, but I love him dearly. When he was born I am told that I exclaimed "It worked! It worked!" When we were younger both our parents worked, and I took it upon myself to do all the obligations that I assumed my parents would have to do. I changed his diapers, I tried to teach him speech, I fed him. My father tells me I would interpret the "words" he'd say when he was not speaking full sentences yet, so from the ages of zero to two and a half years of age, I acted as his guardian for the better part of five years as he aged. Him and I have had a very silent relationship, we have never expressed our affection with words, actions speak louder.

I am protective of him, I have always tried to look out for him and I, until a certain point, assumed a parental role over him. When I turned 13 I stopped. I decided that I had taught him what I could and that he must now learn on his own. We grew somewhat distant, we'd argue often, there was a period of time in which he greatly bothered me on a daily basis. Over time, things have changed. He is incredibly mature for his age, he has had my influence and my father's influence, and he blames us for being unable to identify with his age group. He has no understanding for people who are not intelligent, and he does not tolerate slowness. He, however, is not like me. He is more diplomatic, more compromising, more polite, and far more quiet. Elias does not insult people, he does not interrupt them, he does not tell them what he thinks. He avoids all conflict at all cost. A little anecdote, as a child he would ask me for help with video games, and I would always ask him to hand me the game so that I could show him, but he would always tell me that he didn't want me to show him, he wanted me to tell him, and often he would just get frustrated with me because I was unable to distinguish between the two, so he'd just tell me he didn't want my help anymore.

Elias grew overweight, he does not care about image. He wears what is comfortable and cuts his hair as he wants, he does not care how he dresses and he does not give a thought to how he appears to other people. This is very unlike my mother and I, both of us are very image conscious and value our outward appearance a great deal. He is more like my father, an INTJ, who prefers to be modest and silently better than everyone else. My brother is very intellectual, he pursues math and science on a level I cannot identify with, he learns as often as possible and he is content to sit in his room learning and reading and practicing. He's very good at competitive video games, he finds the patterns in things and he understands the math behind it all. He is most interested in astronomy and physics, he does not care about concrete concepts and he prefers to deal in fields that are purely theoretical, this is one of the driving reasons why, to me, he is an INTP. He catches onto things very quickly, he adeptly and seemingly without trouble gets everything. He is leagues more intelligent than I am, and he shows it every day.

To give you a little sight into the things he says, here are some notable quotes that I can remember of his:

"All goats are racist."
On the subject of sexism:
"When we get down to it, we're all just assholes."
"A girl in my class wore a shirt with galaxies, globular clusters and quasars, but in a the shape of the cross. I am so disappoint."
I boast about him a great deal, it does not occur to me how proud and envious I am of his success and his aptitude. In the past I have argued with him a great deal, and he hates conflict, as I have said. I tend to be very voracious, and he is very relaxed and easy going. I have moved out recently and Elias has expressed a great dislike for my being gone, and so he has told me that, as I stated in the beginning of this post, and I was very taken aback by this. Like I said, we have never spoken about affection and it is an unspoken bond, but I was very glad to hear from him, as that is the closest he has ever gotten to expressing feelings about me.

My questions to you INTPs are as followed:

-How have your interactions been with ESTJs over prolonged periods of time? I realise that, although he is my brother, him and I are still people, and unconditional love is kind of overrated.
-If any of you have ESTJ brothers or sisters, how have you kept in touch after flying the nest?
-What should I avoid in my speech? I want to make this relationship last till our old age, I do not want to lose my brother to despondency and disdain wrought by poor communication.
-Although he asked to speak with me daily, he does not engage me daily, I understand his introversion, but is it possible I have acted in a way that has caused him to avoid speaking to me often?
-What do you most like to talk about? I expect he will continue to ask for my advice on things, what is the best way to go about giving him advice?
-Is there anything else that I should know, or that you want to add?

Thanks in advance for your replies (I hope).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,792 Posts
those quotes... are you sure he isn't insane?
he would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Some times he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy, the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament
Disclaimer: I am not speaking for all INTPs only myself who happens to be an INTP.

-How have your interactions been with ESTJs over prolonged periods of time? I realise that, although he is my brother, him and I are still people, and unconditional love is kind of overrated.
I wouldn't say he is my best friend, but he is a very good friend of mine. He is intelligent. He is a programmer and created the game Rodent Rush on he iPhone (and later android). He recruited me to design a lot of the levels for it. but we get along fine. We don't always see eye to eye. (he can be frustrating and annoying at times. He also seems to oblivious to what other people think/feel, and sometimes, he can be very rude). but there is atleast a mutual respect and friendship between us.

-If any of you have ESTJ brothers or sisters, how have you kept in touch after flying the nest?
I don't think I have ESTJ bros. sorry

-What should I avoid in my speech? I want to make this relationship last till our old age, I do not want to lose my brother to despondency and disdain wrought by poor communication.
I don't think you would. few key things to keep in mind.

1. you need to make some effort. my ESTJ friend rarely ever contacts me. I'm the one who always has to initiate a conversation. I grow weary of that from time to time and communication stops until he picks it up again. I don't know about INTPs, but I don't put effort into a relationship that appears to be one-sided.

2. you need be careful that you don't get on his nerves/embarrass him/rude to him/etc. once again I can't speak for everybody, but if someone starts to irritate me, I'll just as soon get up and go somewhere else. And my friend has a habit of, if we are going to hang out, he'll go and sit with a bunch of people I don't know, and proceed to exclude me from the group. I'll just get up, and go sit somewheres else and read a book or something while I eat than sit excluded around a bunch of people I don't know. So if you say, hey bro let's hang out, you better intend on hanging out with him. Don't bring him someplace that is going to be a group activity that cuts him out. He went to hang out with you, not to talk to your friends or whoever.

-Although he asked to speak with me daily, he does not engage me daily, I understand his introversion, but is it possible I have acted in a way that has caused him to avoid speaking to me often?
If you mean to say he does not call you, he may be tired of the one having to do the engaging and is awaiting you to engage.
If you mean to say you try to strike up a conversation and he give you those one word answers that end conversations before they start, then either you are not talking about anything he is interested in or you have offended him. I have thick skin, but there comes a point when I determine that talking to a person only does bad for my mood (and/or image in some cases when someone takes what I say and then twists it and/or goes out and makes jokes about me and things I said in confidence), and I decide that I don't want to have anything to do with said person.
Now it is important to note that grudges are nearly impossible for me. so these moments of cold-shoulder only last a day-couple of weeks tops.


-What do you most like to talk about? I expect he will continue to ask for my advice on things, what is the best way to go about giving him advice?
I like to talk mostly abstract stuff. and my friend seems to like talking about some abstract topics. Like there was a month or two when we did nothing but talk about the probable characteristics of a fourth dimensional cube or sphere, based on the characteristics of three-dimensional shape compared to a two-dimensional shape and a two-dimensional shape compared to a one-dimensional shape, etc.
Best way to go about giving him advice? I'd say be open and honest. And I think this advice would apply to any type though I may be wrong. Don't tell him or imply that what he is doing is stupid or whatever, because if what he is doing is stupid that means he is stupid. Also don't give him advice on things that you really have no position to (example, non-parents giving parents advice) or advice that makes you a hypocrite. If you are going to give advice it needs to be in the form of what you're doing is good, but this is better and here is why. "that's a good idea, but it might be better to do it this way." now obviously you need to be careful. If you are giving him advice about something like drug use, that might not be a good way to go about it. lol. But you can't be condescending, you need to advise him as if he was an equal peer. You know what I mean? You need advise him as if you're open to the possibility that your advice may not be good, but you are just throwing it out the possibility... I'm not sure how well I've crystalized this. I'm not satisfied, but if I haven't explained it well yet, I probably won't. lol

-Is there anything else that I should know, or that you want to add?
I guess I'll summarize
1. INTP likes 1 on 1 interaction. INTPs are good and loyal friends. If he goes out of his way to hang out with you, you'll have his undivided attention and he'll expect (unless he is told otherwise before he accepts the invitation) your attention to also be undivided. he'll expect to be able to talk whenever you're not talking and for you to listen.

2. You should avoid any tone of condescension. You should avoid mocking him for any idea/belief he shares. INTPs like discussion of their ideas, but not mockery.

3. INTPs like to discuss abstract ideas and plans.

4. INTPs like to be treated as equals. Not inferiors and rarely superiors. INTPs expect advice to be given from someone who is in a place to give it, and from someone who is not a hypocrite. They like the advice to come from an equal (or superior speaking as an equal). they expect advice not to just be thrown at them, but to be offered with some reasoning behind it. If he does not take your advice right away, give it some time. a day or a month later he might come back to you with ideas that "he came up with" (but were really your advice). don't rub it in. Don't say "hey I told you to do that a week ago." he knows. just smile to yourself and think "victory.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
315 Posts
Derp. A potential flaw in SJ interaction with INTP could be that the SJ does not understand the point of view of INTP, or does not even think there is a different point of view, because intp does not speak much. A general "thing" with ennegram type 5 (he sounds like 5), is agreeing to do something for people in order to be left alone. I grew up with my whole family being SJ, my mother in particular ESTJ, and I developed a pattern of doing what I was told because it was easier doing what was asked rather than trying to explain my point of view to deaf ears. This left me with a rather inauthentic approach, and obviously leads to shallow interactions and relationship in general. My mother, to this day, wants to take me shopping and get me new stuff (she is incredibly frustrated by my immaterialistic approach, as well as wearing sweatpants in public).

A few suggestions for smoother interaction would be:
1. Try to accept whatever he says, without judging too harshly, thus making him comfortable to say what he actually feels without having to fake anything.

2. The dinner conversations in my family, or in general conversations, were rarely ever about anything I felt significant. On one hand, I did not introduce any topic, but their interests were so concrete somehow. It very rarely went into any depth. Try to avoid chit-chat subjects and inquire into things that can be analysed, perhaps ask about what you find so important but what he does not, why feminism is so popular and if it has any value, and stuff like that. Controversial topics I find usually very interesting.

3. My interaction with my mother (ESTJ) has smoothened over the years, she does not understand my point of view, but she has come to respect it, at least a little bit. I do not live with my mother, and do not speak to her very often, other than when she calls me and we talk for a while. It is not that I ignore her, but I do not need the interpersonal connection that much. Also when a person is not in my immediate physical surrounding for sustained periods of time, I feel the bond can be weakened. To counter this, perhaps simple interactions online, such as text messages or short calls on skype can sustain a connection.

4. You will get frustrated by his inaction, but it is he who must find his own way to action. Now you say you live apart, so perhaps it is not much of a problem. Try to be encouraging about his interests. Forcing him into corners when it comes to doing things he does not want is a recipe for isolation. One of the bigger problems when it came to my own interactions with relatives who are SJ, was the ultimate practical solution which was given unto me. I was never encouraged to do what I liked, rather encouraged to do what would get me a job and constant harrassment (unintentional of course) about getting an education etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,856 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
@grandpa2390:

Firstly, I'd like to thank you for the well thought out and informative reply. I wasn't really sure what to expect out of the INTPs on this forum, and I am delighted to receive such a detailed response. Many of the things that you have said about how to interact with him I have actually learned through the last fourteen years of our relationship. He never gives me one word answers or stuff like that, but whenever I visit home he is very eager to show me things and get my opinion on them, and sometimes I am disinterested but I humour him regardless. What will happen when I try to engage him on Skype or Steam or Facebook or by text is that he will talk to me, and then he will just stop responding. I have asked him why he does that, and he has told me that "I dunno, I just forget and start doing something else." He tends to talk more than INTJs that I know, but then again, so does my friend (Greg), who is also an INTP. Funny thing about that INTP, him and I started out as heated enemies, but at some point there was mutual respect and we started to hang out and he would talk to me. Both Elias and (Greg) are very similar, when they do things with me they really prefer to just coexist with me in the same room. (Greg) will come over for multiple hours and we will watch TV, I'll make dinner, and he'll read about physics and stuff (he is a physics major at Caltech), and he consistently wants to hang out again, so I figure he enjoys our interactions. I took him to a hot wings place and he told me "This is fun." and that is the best compliment he has given me. I take his friendship as an honour and I greatly appreciate him taking time out of his day to do things with me.

One time Elias and I got dinner and I was texting my (now) girlfriend, and he was very annoyed with it, it actually created a lot of tension and he stopped speaking with me entirely for that night. I was very angry at him at first, but I realised that I was not giving him enough attention and I apologised to him for ignoring him as I had. I have yelled at him on a number of occasions, usually because he was being irrational and I did not like how he responded to something in a hostile way, and he avoids getting into conflicts with me more so than he used to. I am not sure if it is out of fear of my anger, a dislike of conflict in general, or a desire to keep our relationship healthy. I want to assume all three, but I worry it is just the middle. I like all interaction, and one on one he is very vocal, but I have observed him in groups and he is very uncomfortable a lot of the time.

I know very much what you mean about not being condescending, I try never to be with him. I have a great amount of respect for him, and I treat him as an adult.

Once again, thank you for the well thought out response.

@Kurdomintt:

I am pretty sure he is a 5w6, yes. I do not tell Elias what to do, I did enough of that and I instilled values in him that I considered to be quality, and then I let him loose. He is his own person and I try to give him as much space as he needs to grow, since I am a firm believer in the idea that unity cannot come without individualistic development.

You are right, he tends to eat dinner and then leave if we do not actively engage him in something that he considers to be of interest.

I do get frustrated with his apathy, yes, but it's all good. I've learned to live with it. I have always told him to beat his own drum and he has pursued what he wants to pursue. I think he should go into engineering, and I have told him so, but he fervently wants to go into research science. I am sure things will change, though, his interests wax and wane a lot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
309 Posts
My father is ESTJ, we grew very distant while I was a teenager. The only subject we had to talk about was soccer.

Now we enjoy talking about the past which supposedly engages his auxiliary and mine tertiary si. Or we talk about my goals and plans but those conversations(goals and plans) won't go much deeper because we have different views and is hard to understand each other. The past on the other hand already happened and we can only reflect on it to see if we can get any lessons from it.

We are still distant though, I know because we don't argue and I tend to argue with anyone who is close enough.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
938 Posts
Note: I am an INTP female and we are quite different than an INTP male. I have an ESTJ mother so I can only tell you what it's like having her as a mother.
-How have your interactions been with ESTJs over prolonged periods of time?.
I cannot live with my mother for long. I am also afraid that people I respect will begin to feel tired of me and loose respect for me if they are with me for too long. I do enjoy her company but for short periods of time and I do seek her out when stressful times come. Sometimes I will just want to talk with her for no apparent reason. I still will not be able to take long periods with her, I will need a break almost immediately after interaction due to her intensity or her changing the subject even though the subject she finds uncomfortable is what I needed to talk about.

-If any of you have ESTJ brothers or sisters, how have you kept in touch after flying the nest? My mother is usually the one that must reach me. I will not initiate unless I must share something I find important or significant. Too many initiations on my mother's part, can cause me to feel uncomfortable and smothered.
-What should I avoid in my speech? Do not talk down to us, do not say "well you'll learn" or "You'll understand one day" or "You will change your mind" you do not know what we want, we know what we want and what our futures will behold better than anyone else. Do not think that the words that come out of your mouth are gospel, we find it very distasteful. I personally do take advice, and once again, do not claim it to be gospel, we will take it as wisdom if we find it to be wise.
-Although he asked to speak with me daily, he does not engage me daily. That is just how it is. We don't like the idea that we may want or need someone, but we sometimes do. I understand his introversion, but is it possible I have acted in a way that has caused him to avoid speaking to me often? Sometimes as I said earlier, your type can be a bit intense.
-What do you most like to talk about? From what I gather, INTPs and myself personally, do not like small talk very much. I personally like to talk about philosophy and politics. Most INTPs do NOT like politics, so you will have to find this out on your own. You said he likes science, get him engaged on conversation about a theory/concept or of a specific scientist. I enjoy giving my opinion on such matters, I especially enjoy to hear people ask me about them.
-I expect he will continue to ask for my advice on things, what is the best way to go about giving him advice? "well I've found that..." or "I've come to think..." back up your opinion with facts so that it's not just an opinion, then ask what he thinks. Never force anything, or say "That's just the way it is." unless it's a 100% fact with evidence presented.
-Is there anything else that I should know, or that you want to add? I can't think of anything.
Thanks in advance for your replies (I hope). I hoped it helped a little. Uh, but IDK, this is a female to female perspective.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,792 Posts
@grandpa2390:

Firstly, I'd like to thank you for the well thought out and informative reply. I wasn't really sure what to expect out of the INTPs on this forum, and I am delighted to receive such a detailed response. Many of the things that you have said about how to interact with him I have actually learned through the last fourteen years of our relationship. He never gives me one word answers or stuff like that, but whenever I visit home he is very eager to show me things and get my opinion on them, and sometimes I am disinterested but I humour him regardless. What will happen when I try to engage him on Skype or Steam or Facebook or by text is that he will talk to me, and then he will just stop responding. I have asked him why he does that, and he has told me that "I dunno, I just forget and start doing something else."
Oh, I didn't think about online talking. I loathe talking on the phone or skype. First speech is very awkward when I can't see the person I'm speaking through. So my phone calls are very brief.
chatting (like through aim, gmail, facebook) is kind of the same. one, I can't see the person I'm talking to, but also it requires me to pretty much keep the window open. I couldn't watch a television show or really focus on reading a book or studying a topic if someone is trying to chat with me. So I am not to thrilled about that either and eventually, if the person takes too long to respond in the chat, I'll get focused on something else and forget all about the chat until an hour later I go back and there are lots of "helloooo....."s
So audio chat is a no
text chat is a maybe if you are giving undivided attention to the chat. the moment it takes you 5 minutes to reply is the moment you've lost me.
texting on the phone is better because I can sit the phone beside me and it doesn't interfere with tasking on the computer. but it gets a bit annoying if the texting is so often that it should be chat. So
undivided attention: chat.
divided attention: texting

He tends to talk more than INTJs that I know, but then again, so does my friend (Greg), who is also an INTP. Funny thing about that INTP, him and I started out as heated enemies, but at some point there was mutual respect and we started to hang out and he would talk to me. Both Elias and (Greg) are very similar, when they do things with me they really prefer to just coexist with me in the same room. (Greg) will come over for multiple hours and we will watch TV, I'll make dinner, and he'll read about physics and stuff (he is a physics major at Caltech), and he consistently wants to hang out again, so I figure he enjoys our interactions. I took him to a hot wings place and he told me "This is fun." and that is the best compliment he has given me. I take his friendship as an honour and I greatly appreciate him taking time out of his day to do things with me.
yeah, I do agree. "this is fun" coming from an INTP referring to going out some place is a huge complement as we pretty much like to live in isolation. We are the hermits in the middle of the enchanted forest that the hero seeks for wisdom. The only time we like to leave our cozy forest is when the hero needs our desperate help. or something like that. lol. I'll go out with friends because they ask me to, but I don't really want to (usually). I almost never have a fun time being out. I enjoy their company when we talk, but in my mind, I'd rather do that some place free... like my house or their house.

Oh and also, we're like those dogs that hate strangers and then warm up after a couple of weeks. like in my younger days, I literally was cold to people I didn't know. I'm becoming warmer with age though. but I still am cold to strangers who are idiots (literally stupid or try to make fun of me. or any other thing that puts me off). and while it is practically impossible for me to hold a grudge against a friend, it is not impossible to hold a grudge against a stranger. if you give a bad first and second impression to me when we first meet, chances are you won't get many chances to redeem yourself. It's just the way I am. Once I have labeled you, you'll have to work hard to get into my good books. But I have friends who rubbed me the wrong way for our first interactions.

One time Elias and I got dinner and I was texting my (now) girlfriend, and he was very annoyed with it, it actually created a lot of tension and he stopped speaking with me entirely for that night. I was very angry at him at first, but I realised that I was not giving him enough attention and I apologised to him for ignoring him as I had. I have yelled at him on a number of occasions, usually because he was being irrational and I did not like how he responded to something in a hostile way, and he avoids getting into conflicts with me more so than he used to. I am not sure if it is out of fear of my anger, a dislike of conflict in general, or a desire to keep our relationship healthy. I want to assume all three, but I worry it is just the middle. I like all interaction, and one on one he is very vocal, but I have observed him in groups and he is very uncomfortable a lot of the time.
lol, you'd rather him fear your wrath than dislike conflict in general. lol (and I'm not ridiculing you, I just find that humorous) it is probably just the middle. I don't like conflict. I try to avoid it at all possible. Am I willing and ready to physically stand my ground, yes. but I'll exhaust every other possibility (including removing myself) before it gets that far.

But yeah. I know she is (or was going to be) your girlfriend, but from my point of view, I would have considered that rude. (and I think that goes for any type, but maybe INTP is a little more sensitive?) I mean, I don't know the situation like you do, but if he was talking and you pulled out your phone to text... let me talk about myself alone. If I am talking and the person I am talking to pulls out his phone to text, to me that says, "I really don't care about what you're saying, I'm just listening out of politeness. There are other people I'd rather be talking to, but I don't want you to feel bad or think I don't care about you..."
And me. I don't force my company on anybody. I'm thinking, "Well I'm sorry that I am interrupting your conversation with somebody on the phone. allow me to remove myself." If you don't want to hang out with me, I don't want you to feel obliged to. I don't want you to listen to me or hang out with me because you feel guilty. If you don't want to listen and talk to me, I'll give you what you want. I don't want to be the friend nobody likes. Who people talk to and invite along simply because they feel bad for me. I don't want to be a hinderance to anybody. So that's when I go silent or even remove myself to another table or leave.

I know very much what you mean about not being condescending, I try never to be with him. I have a great amount of respect for him, and I treat him as an adult.

Once again, thank you for the well thought out response.
it's no problem. I try to be helpful. take all I say with a grain of salt because no two INTPs are exactly alike. what's ok with me might make him mad. and also he may not be an INTP, I may not be an INTP, neither of us might be INTPs... you've considered this already, but I feel I need to put that disclaimer in there for anybody else who might read my post. :)
It's that part of me that everybody says should go to law school ;)
 
1 - 7 of 7 Posts
Top