Personality Cafe banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,268 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have this INTJ friend who I've known for years. One of the things which annoys me about her is that she often doesn't say what she really thinks about something if it will disagree with the other person for fear of causing conflict or something. It is obvious what she really thinks because she'll just give this annoyed/disapproving look... It's really annoying that she does this with her friends. It's almost insulting in a way, like she thinks I won't be able to handle the fact that she doesn't like a particular movie or whatever that I happen to like. I mean, why would that matter? I'd like to hear that she doesn't like it and then maybe even discuss it even if we disagree rather than have this awkward thing where it's obvious to everyone what she really thinks but she won't say it. She's mentioned before that she doesn't like conflict so I think that's the reason why, even though it doesn't make sense. She said that she can't handle it if someone loses face so she doesn't watch it. I find all this quite strange and then when I read INTJ type descriptions it doesn't seem to fit. I thought that INTJ's were meant to be blunt and not afraid of debates...(btw I know not every INTJ will fit into the description and not to take it too literally)... I mean, I understand not liking and avoiding conflict as that is what I am like but I don't understand the way she behaves.

Also, she is not usually shy of giving her opinion. She loves to talk, give her opinion. She does make bitchy little comments sometimes to undermine her friends - My other friend can get away with a lot less than me... She shows off constantly - which is another main thing which annoys me about her. She does debate things. But then she often won't say what she thinks about something silly like a matter of taste for example if she has to disagree with someone after they've said they like something. It's weird. I don't understand really. She has this front up the whole time. I just wish she'd relax and stop showing off all the time and also just be honest. Just drop the act. It makes me not want to see her anymore and to be honest I don't really like her basically because of what I've described. Also I feel like she'd shaft me in a second, for example to better herself or just to impress a boy or another friend...

I know this has just turned into a rant but I do find the not being honest thing a bit perplexing and was just wondering what you're take on it is and if you act like this too or can relate? I'd like to how honest and blunt are you and in which situations are you not? When do you hold back your opinion? How afraid of conflict are you? How cautious are you of offending someone? etc.

I'm just interested because she's the only INTJ that I know at all well and I'm just looking for any kind of enlightenment on this I guess.
 

·
Jaffa Master
Joined
·
7,575 Posts
I found it difficult to read this post because I was humming the pippy longstocking theme in my head.

Regarding the question, why would you want to even be around a person like that? She sounds intolerable by the way you described her. I would not want to attribute any of that to INTJness.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,255 Posts
People with undeveloped infantile narcissism can be like this. They are afraid of what the world thinks so them so they create a new character for interacting with the world. That character however will often be contradictory. Like you said she is fine to debate and express an opinion but only when she thinks she will win. You can't win in a debate about personal preferences. There is no basis in which one is objectively superior to the other. So she chooses not to engage in that kind of disclosure. She chooses not to disclose herself at all. It's always one sided with her, she expects disclosure from you so she can hold tight to her feelings of superiority and yet will not put herself in that same vulnerable position.

I am not saying she's not INTJ or that she's a horrible person. But I am suggesting that she has an unconscious shadow that is controlling her interaction with the outside world. The reality of that is, she will be like this until she wants to grow. And growing from there will be a scary proposition to her, and it will be slow and there will be a lot of retreating into the comfort of the shadow time and time again. It's up to you whether or not you want to stick around for that eventuality, there is no guaranteee it will ever happen. I know many adults who are still stuck in the emotional state of an 8yr old. It's the way it goes for some people.

Just some thoughts for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
She sounds like an immature INFJ to me, not an INTJ. I despise lying. But everything you have said about not wanting conflict, having strong opinions on important things, but not stating how she feels on little things are all classic INFJ traits. You should read the INFJ description I think you will find it more accurate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,376 Posts
How old is she? Age can matter here.

When I was in my late teens, I had a lot of trouble with being true to my feelings and opinions. It's something I've really had to put effort into working through.

Still have remnants of it now, just not so prevalent as it once was.

Regardless of that, if you want to give her a chance, then be honest with her. Try not to make it an accusation ("you're X") because people just shut that stuff out. Instead, if you want to give her a chance, be honest with her about how this stuff is affecting you and how you feel about it, and then be willing to hear her side of the story and work from that dual perspective on what the two of you can do differently, if anything.

Relationships are hard and people don't always know how they're affecting us, even though it's the most obvious thing in the world to us cause we're the one experiencing it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sometimes and Dao

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,987 Posts
who knows. she might be an asshole, might be some other type, might just be so severely traumatized/mistrustful she doesn't know which way is up yet in terms of not only who she actually is, but whether or not she has any right to be who she is. the threads that pop up now and then about how hard it is to be an intj woman, especially when we're very young and/or until we figure out how to fight back . . . those aren't just theoretical things. some of us do/did have an extremely hard time, and we either get so sick of the aggravation or so confused for a while that we stay off the radar as much as we can.

anyone will care about 'what people think', regardless of type . . . if they're in a structure that allows what people think to have an actual hard-core effect on their lives. anybody who imagines otherwise has a very limited experience of real-world life, imo.

and just inb4 . . . 'yes but i'm not like the rest of the world' wouldn't cut it, necessarily. whatever she's got going on might have a much wider context than you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
357 Posts
Personally I have problems coming out with opinions when I think the statements I can conjure up at present are too bold and assumptuous or rough/vague and doesn't accurately represent how I feel. In other words sometimes I have begun to form a thought about something but I don't know the parameters and justifications of what that opinion is just yet, so I don't share it.

Otherwise no, I don't think I have given others disapproving vibes while withholding opinions. I had a childhood friend who ended up being like that in her late teens, and I was fiercely angered by her such behaviour at the time. She didn't come off as an INTJ... not even an NT really.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,180 Posts
I don't know where it came from, but when I was young, I somehow got it into my head that I was better equipped to deal with negativity/emotional hardship than anyone else. I think I was called out one too many times over being insensitive or cruel. Regardless of where it came from, somewhere along the line, I learned that other people's emotions were fragile, delicate little snowflakes. When damaged, these pweshus little feels would cause irrevocable pain and suffering to other person.

Out a misguided attempt to spare their tender little hearts, I would put up with A LOT of crap. That included going along with people rather than confronting them or giving them an honest opinion. I eventually figured out that people really aren't all that fragile and reverted to the more typical INTJ bluntness.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
I actually don't enjoy debating because it feels pointless, especially with my friends. What's the purpose? We aren't going to change each other's minds. Everyone has their own opinions.

As for conflict, I avoid stating my honest opinion only to people who have not responded well to me in the past. It's not out of fear of creating conflict, per se, but because conflict is often a huge waste of time, energy, and frustration. Most things aren't worth arguing over. It depends on the temperament of the person I'm interacting with. For instance, I have a friend who is always asking my opinion on things and I often avoid answering or give vague responses because she always reacts in the most dramatic and negative way. I'd rather just avoid the fight. She gets frustrated with me when I don't respond, but It's because I know she would freak out if I told her what I really think. She always tells me she wants to know my honest opinion, then gets offended by what I tell her.
I don't have any problem voicing my honest opinions to people who will respect them and not overreact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,053 Posts
I have this INTJ friend who I've known for years. One of the things which annoys me about her is that she often doesn't say what she really thinks about something if it will disagree with the other person for fear of causing conflict or something. It is obvious what she really thinks because she'll just give this annoyed/disapproving look... It's really annoying that she does this with her friends. It's almost insulting in a way, like she thinks I won't be able to handle the fact that she doesn't like a particular movie or whatever that I happen to like. I mean, why would that matter? I'd like to hear that she doesn't like it and then maybe even discuss it even if we disagree rather than have this awkward thing where it's obvious to everyone what she really thinks but she won't say it. She's mentioned before that she doesn't like conflict so I think that's the reason why, even though it doesn't make sense. She said that she can't handle it if someone loses face so she doesn't watch it. I find all this quite strange and then when I read INTJ type descriptions it doesn't seem to fit. I thought that INTJ's were meant to be blunt and not afraid of debates...(btw I know not every INTJ will fit into the description and not to take it too literally)... I mean, I understand not liking and avoiding conflict as that is what I am like but I don't understand the way she behaves.

Also, she is not usually shy of giving her opinion. She loves to talk, give her opinion. She does make bitchy little comments sometimes to undermine her friends - My other friend can get away with a lot less than me... She shows off constantly - which is another main thing which annoys me about her. She does debate things. But then she often won't say what she thinks about something silly like a matter of taste for example if she has to disagree with someone after they've said they like something. It's weird. I don't understand really. She has this front up the whole time. I just wish she'd relax and stop showing off all the time and also just be honest. Just drop the act. It makes me not want to see her anymore and to be honest I don't really like her basically because of what I've described. Also I feel like she'd shaft me in a second, for example to better herself or just to impress a boy or another friend...

I know this has just turned into a rant but I do find the not being honest thing a bit perplexing and was just wondering what you're take on it is and if you act like this too or can relate? I'd like to how honest and blunt are you and in which situations are you not? When do you hold back your opinion? How afraid of conflict are you? How cautious are you of offending someone? etc.

I'm just interested because she's the only INTJ that I know at all well and I'm just looking for any kind of enlightenment on this I guess.
You might find this interesting: Myers & Briggs • Two major types of INTJ

This sounds very similar to me. I tend to have strong opinions about things, but I tend not to mention them out loud. I'll stand my ground, but I'm not willing to confront people directly with my opinions.

The main reason for this is survival. For the most part, people don't like people who are brutally honest since that tends to rub them the wrong way with such attitudes. If one wants to get a leg up in the world (i.e. me and probably your friend), you have to play the social game and not forcefully point out things with your strong opinion. It's technically a mask, but a mask that's important for surviving in this world.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,268 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It's always one sided with her, she expects disclosure from you so she can hold tight to her feelings of superiority and yet will not put herself in that same vulnerable position.
I think there is some truth in what you said. The above quote is definitely how she makes me feel. She disclose a lot of information about herself and likes to give off this impression that she basically doesn't hide anything but she's always just showing off about how clever and observant she is or whatever. I find it exhausting. She'll say something embarrassing or negative about her life but somehow make it into her showing off. I can't explain it.

Also I forgot to include this in my post but one time she confirmed what I thought about her not saying what she thinks about silly things sometimes. It was years ago and we were hanging out just the two of us and she had relaxed a bit with me I think and I think we were having a good time I guess and she wasn't showing off as much. I was telling her about how a (ESTP) friend of ours made me watch this movie that she thought was so great and I hated it. And the INTJ responded to the story by saying "what did you do? Just say that you liked it.." or something like that. In this way like that was an obvious way to behave and like she was empathising with me for being in such an awful position where you have to lie or something. I just said "well, I just said I didn't like it."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,268 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
She sounds like an immature INFJ to me, not an INTJ. I despise lying. But everything you have said about not wanting conflict, having strong opinions on important things, but not stating how she feels on little things are all classic INFJ traits. You should read the INFJ description I think you will find it more accurate.
I'd never really considered she could be INFJ. She hasn't taken the test to my knowledge but I always just thought she must be INTJ. After you suggested it I have entertained the idea of her as INFJ but I still think INTJ. Then again, I've sort of compared her (in my head) to hermione granger and lisa simpson sort of as joke because they seem to have similarities (although maybe superficial ones). And I've read that both those characters are basically typed as INFJ. When I started reading about mbti I thought of them as INTJ probably half unconsciously because I sort of associated them with this old friend whom I'm pretty sure is INTJ.

I am familiar (enough) with INFJ descriptions I think. My ex boyfriend who I'd known/been best friends/dated for ten years is an INFJ. He got INFJ on the test and it definitely fits. He was very honest about everything. He'd always say if he didn't like something that I liked. So I've never associated INFJ with not stating how they feel on little things. Can you elaborate?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,268 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
How old is she? Age can matter here.

When I was in my late teens, I had a lot of trouble with being true to my feelings and opinions. It's something I've really had to put effort into working through.

Still have remnants of it now, just not so prevalent as it once was.
She's 25. I feel like she's actually gotten worse (I've known her since we were about 16). Or maybe I've just got less tolerant as I'm now older (and hopefully wiser) I'm more sure of my self and feel I can and need to be far more selective about who I choose to spend my time with or have in my life (i.e. not people who I don't really enjoy spending time, where it's one sided and I leave feeling drained...). I mean, I've always had things which annoyed me about her but it used to be okay when it was just the two of us and recently I feel like she's got worse with all the things I described in my original post. Maybe adult life has just made her worse and put up even more of an act. I have decided I don't want to see her anymore. But thank you anyway, what you advised is what I would do if I wanted to give it a chance. But I'm still just curious about it because I want to understand it better anyway and also have a better understanding of INTJ's because it's hard when my opinion is biased by only knowing one (probably) INTJ in real life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,268 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
who knows. she might be an asshole, might be some other type, might just be so severely traumatized/mistrustful she doesn't know which way is up yet in terms of not only who she actually is, but whether or not she has any right to be who she is. the threads that pop up now and then about how hard it is to be an intj woman, especially when we're very young and/or until we figure out how to fight back . . . those aren't just theoretical things. some of us do/did have an extremely hard time, and we either get so sick of the aggravation or so confused for a while that we stay off the radar as much as we can.
Yes, I understand that. And I'm sure there is some truth applied to her.

anyone will care about 'what people think', regardless of type . . . if they're in a structure that allows what people think to have an actual hard-core effect on their lives. anybody who imagines otherwise has a very limited experience of real-world life, imo.
Yeah. I can agree/understand.

and just inb4 . . . 'yes but i'm not like the rest of the world' wouldn't cut it, necessarily.
What do you mean? Are you saying that you think I would respond by saying that? Even if I did think that (which I don't) then what would that have to do with what she thinks or how she feels or anything that we're talking about? I don't understand??... Or are you saying that she would say that? :confused:


whatever she's got going on might have a much wider context than you.
Well, obviously. :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,268 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
anyone will care about 'what people think', regardless of type . . . if they're in a structure that allows what people think to have an actual hard-core effect on their lives. anybody who imagines otherwise has a very limited experience of real-world life, imo.
I understand this by itself I guess. But I don't understand in what way you are applying it to the context or what it is has to do with what we're talking about?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
She very well could be either INTJ or INFJ obviously you would know better since you actually know her in person, that was just my thought when I read what you had said.

He'd always say if he didn't like something that I liked. So I've never associated INFJ with not stating how they feel on little things. Can you elaborate?
Obviously even within the same types people are different and maturity levels have a lot to do with it as well. But elaborating for me personally, when talking to certain people more so when I was younger than now, I just wouldn't state my opinion if it wasn't that important to me, because I was always trying so hard to avoid conflict. To me conflict was way worse than getting the kind of pizza I diid't like or going to a movie I'm not particularly fond of. That being said if someone asked for my opinion outright I'd answer honestly, but most of the time it just didn't matter to me. But with the people I was close with I was much more likely to state an opinion because I felt more comfortable. I hope that helps!

P. S. about honesty, dishonesty is something I've never been able to stand, so I've always done my best to be honest. But INFJs are also known for being very good liars if they want to be.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
23,656 Posts
I can't really relate to her as being similar. When I was younger I'd charge right in there with my bull in a china shop technique that works so well and be astounded by people taking everything so personally. I was perplexed as to why people thought I was aggressive (because I didn't feel aggressive). Mind you, once people knew me well enough they would change their mind about the aggression idea (I disappear/disengage when I'm angry).

Now I rather avoid conflict but not shy away, rather...meh, no point trying to change someone's opinion unless they are compatible with learning. I don't like having people get worked up (I can see why they do now). What you describe comes across as just another passive aggressive on any other day. Like the XXXX arsehole passive aggressiveness can transcend type IMO.

This is only really one INTJ talking about their own experience though. Others may or may not relate to it. Perhaps enneagram may come into it too.

As to the rest of it; she simply sounds like a frenemy you can't rely on if you get the feel you are going to be shafted any minute. It seems more the XXXX arsehole type.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
510 Posts
I'm just interested because she's the only INTJ that I know at all well and I'm just looking for any kind of enlightenment on this I guess.
I respect you as a dignified human being and I wish you best of happiness in life, but I have a very relevant thing to say, which might be unpleasant, so I apologize beforehand:

If you truly value honesty, print out the original post and show it to her.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,168 Posts
I'm quite a truthful person when I am with people I trust and who I know like and accept me. But with people who don't like me much, I keep my guard up and my opinions to myself. You have made it clear that you dislike her and don't accept her. She probably has figured this out and is doing her best to get along with you.

If a "friend" wrote about me the way you do about her, I would be devastated. I agree that you should no longer spend time with her. It sounds like it is bad for both of you.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top