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Long story short: My best friend is an INTP and whenever we're debating something (in good humor) she has a habit of listing all the contradictions and logical inconsistencies in my statements which infuriates me to no end.

What I want to know is how do I go about winning without resorting to the same tactics?

Is there anyway to make her doubt her own logic? Any weak areas I can poke at until she accepts that I'm right? Or a way to at least just get her to acknowledge that I have a good point?

Or are debates between these two types always likely to end in stalemate?
 

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It isn't a very 'good point' if it isn't logical. The only way I ever doubt my own logic is if I am presented with factual, concrete evidence that explicitly states that I am wrong. Otherwise, I won't back down. Ever.
 

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It isn't a very 'good point' if it isn't logical. The only way I ever doubt my own logic is if I am presented with factual, concrete evidence that explicitly states that I am wrong. Otherwise, I won't back down. Ever.
Lol then you're probably not an INTP.
JK but, INTPs tend to not be very confident in their arguments. They tend to want to know the right answer however they often try to defend their argument as long as possible.
arguments, to INTPs, are half convincing others that they're right and half convincing themselves.
INTPs tend to doubt themselves, they try to hide it by attacking your argument but if you can just keep pushing their docile nature should take over. After all, INTPs just care about knowledge and understanding. They'll be happy if they learn something new.
Just keep in mind if you're wrong, don't bother arguing, and try to keep calm, INTPs, while not good at expressing emotion, tend to be excellent at reading emotion and if they sense that you're getting angry they'll realize that their winning.
 

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I think your main problem is that you're trying to "win" a debate. Debates are for discussion and understanding more than it is for debating, really. Listing inconsistencies in a statement are part of better understanding what you're trying to say and trying to better follow your train of thought.

Funnily enough, when I told my INTJ best friend the thread title here with no other details, she said pretty much the same thing as what @StateOfDaniel just mentioned in his post about it xD It's pretty much true us INTPs need to convince themselves of arguments and debates are seen more as discussion for the sake of knowledge and understanding the subject better. I'm not really sure who "wins" or "loses" the debates I have with my INTJ since I don't really see winning and losing as the point of debating. Does it really matter what side is "right"? Right and wrong are subjective terms anyway; both sides of any decent debate have their points.

Oh, and don't let emotions get into the debate much. It has a way of invalidating an argument 8P
 

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My best friend is an INTP and whenever we're debating something (in good humor) she has a habit of listing all the contradictions and logical inconsistencies in my statements which infuriates me to no end.
Have you tried not making inconsistent statements?

What I want to know is how do I go about winning without resorting to the same tactics?

Is there anyway to make her doubt her own logic? Any weak areas I can poke at until she accepts that I'm right?
Resort to the same tactics - if they're applicable.

Or a way to at least just get her to acknowledge that I have a good point?
If she's able to point out contradictions and logical inconsistencies, then it wasn't a good point.

I may sound like I'm being an asshole, but I'm not actually being an asshole, I promise... does that make sense? :confused:
 

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Long story short: My best friend is an INTP and whenever we're debating something (in good humor) she has a habit of listing all the contradictions and logical inconsistencies in my statements which infuriates me to no end.

What I want to know is how do I go about winning without resorting to the same tactics?

Is there anyway to make her doubt her own logic? Any weak areas I can poke at until she accepts that I'm right? Or a way to at least just get her to acknowledge that I have a good point?

Or are debates between these two types always likely to end in stalemate?
I know what you mean. I have the same problem with an INTP in my life, who, even when I know that I'm right (and even when he knows I'm right) is able to beat me simply through word trickery, making up rules as he goes, and other deceptions that turn the sharing of ideas into a battle of wits.

Ask her to entertain the idea and try switching sides. If she just wants to win and nothing else, debate is likely pointless, but if she actually wants to learn, remind her of it. Ask how she would respond to her own points, and tell her if she's just sounding stubborn. You're not attacking her, you just want to understand, and she should do the same.
 

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Well how bad do you want to "win". There are many tactics to win a fight, less so to be right. Rarer still are those who have mastered the art of being right, and being fully capable of winning a debate.

If I can win a debate through facts that's good. If I can win a debate through facts and logic that's better. If I can win a debate through facts, logic, and testimony then that's the best. See where I'm going with this? If both sides are right, what are you bringing to make your side more right? I don't care if you have the best infantry soldiers in the universe. If the other person brings their infantry, tanks, emotional support, food, logistics, airplanes, space ships, warp drives, nuclear bombs, and all other manner of weapons your going to lose.

So ask yourself. How bad do you want to win?
 
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If being right won the day, the best lawyers wouldn't be paid so much money. Unless it's something important, who cares who's right? It's all about who can present the most convincing argument. Debate's are a battle wits. Make the opponent question their position. Either they'll give in or deliver. I cross my fingers that they'll deliver, because I just enjoy the challenge and don't care who wins. I wanna make my opponent sweat.

My advice, have fun! Stop worrying about stalemates and winning. You could be learning something from the debates and putting her arguments to the test. At least, I find debating one of the most efficient ways to learn a topic and fun too.
 

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My SO is an INTJ. We don't really "debate" because unless she sees how it serves a purpose she isn't really interested in a long discussion. Most of the time when we talk about the big things, we actually already see them the same way anyway, the main differences being how we arrived to that same conclusion, and then the conversation turns into analyzing our differing brain functions.

Also, defeating our logic is impossible. Logic is what we do, even if we can't explain all of it. You should be excited that she is even debating you. It means she thinks you're worth the effort. My debates with people are usually about 30 seconds long because I don't think most people are smart enough to bother with. "Have you thought about this..." Or "maybe do it this way..." Is about all most people will get unless I think you're really smart or I might learn something.
 

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What I want to know is how do I go about winning without resorting to the same tactics?
By making an argument that is consistent, so that she cannot dismiss it due to your reasoning being iffy or simply invalid, and of which the premises are explicitly agreed upon by her. Do not assume, as the INTJs I know assume way too eagerly, that the INTP will simply agree upon any plausible or reasonable sounding premise. Make sure that the discursive commitments of both you and her are clear for the both of you, so that you can later get back to her when she tries to weasel out of something, by telling her: "No, you cannot say that, because it contradicts with the point to which you agreed earlier." It is all about finding good, non-contradictory premises that you both explicitly agree upon, and then arguing the point until you get to a conclusion that is inevitable if those premises, and the arguments that follow from them, are accepted.

For a simple conversation that is set up like this, you can start by reading something among the lines of 'Three Dialogues between Hylas and Philonous' by George Berkeley, or, if you do not have the time to analyse reasoning practices yourself, you can always try reading some textbooks on logic and argumentation theory. Watching videos of discussions between professional debaters may work too, but often these professional debaters make mistakes themselves, so I would be careful with anything that is not written down thoughtfully.

Is there anyway to make her doubt her own logic? Any weak areas I can poke at until she accepts that I'm right? Or a way to at least just get her to acknowledge that I have a good point?
Probably, but only if you know what would make her doubt her logic, which is a matter of understanding her psychology.

Probably, but you will have to know her weak points, and this will only be a quick fix; she could perhaps easily get back and see through your tricks if you rely on them too much.

Yes, by asking her whether she agrees with your points or not, and by realizing that you cannot reason someone into agreeing with your premises in many cases, since people often only agree to a point when they intuitively or emotionally agree with it; when they believe it, so that means you will have to learn how to use pathos.

Or are debates between these two types always likely to end in stalemate?
I wouldn't know, I do not know what kind of people you are, or what you two are like together.
 

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I typically like to distract them by unceremoniously stripping in front of them. Hasn't failed me yet.
I've never done that to distract a friend. Only if I was sleeping with them... Distractions are an affective tool though. Kudos.
 
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"listing all the contradictions and logical inconsistencies in my statements"

Either don't be inconsistent or try to defend every point of that list :)
 

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You can't win a debate against an INTP. And they can't win against you either. INTPs debate to learn, not to win. So just tell them things they don't know.

Even if you feel like you had the last word, the INTP won't feel any sense of loss or inferiority, they'll just feel that they learned something extra. They'll feel like it was finished on an equal footing because everyone came away with the same level of agreed knowledge and understanding.

Basically just keep telling them things they don't know until they have a Eureka moment. It doesn't mean you've won though, it just means you provided some extra insight into the bigger picture :wink:

Or at least that's my take on it anyway. I hate it when people bring it to the level of, "you're so stupid and that's why I'm right." Because really, in the INTP's case, it's never stupidity, merely an ignorance to the required facts. A debate, to us, is more of a process of mutual learning. I read somewhere that an INTP will often counter with opinions they don't even value, just for the sake of throwing an extra angle into the discussion, so all bases are evenly covered. Make of that what you will. We don't care about being the 'winner', we just want pure understanding.
 

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You could just do what all INTJs do when they argue with me:
- Look at me with full on anger and frustration
- Argue obsessively over something we have already establish is pointless to confuse me
- Criticise me for thinking in a certain way or inferring in a certain way and then counter that with your own inference
- Make sure you do everything above in a really angry manner

You're all set. Good luck.
 

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You can't win a debate against an INTP. And they can't win against you either. INTPs debate to learn, not to win. So just tell them things they don't know.

Even if you feel like you had the last word, the INTP won't feel any sense of loss or inferiority, they'll just feel that they learned something extra. They'll feel like it was finished on an equal footing because everyone came away with the same level of agreed knowledge and understanding.

Basically just keep telling them things they don't know until they have a Eureka moment. It doesn't mean you've won though, it just means you provided some extra insight into the bigger picture :wink:

Or at least that's my take on it anyway. I hate it when people bring it to the level of, "you're so stupid and that's why I'm right." Because really, in the INTP's case, it's never stupidity, merely an ignorance to the required facts. A debate, to us, is more of a process of mutual learning. I read somewhere that an INTP will often counter with opinions they don't even value, just for the sake of throwing an extra angle into the discussion, so all bases are evenly covered. Make of that what you will. We don't care about being the 'winner', we just want pure understanding.
OH MY GOD YES. THANK YOU KIND SIR.
Ugh all of my INTJ friends think I have a conflicting set of opinion of things when I am just offering a new insight into the issue so that we could discuss on it more. INTJs just want to get to the fucking point and just go do something more productive. INTPs like to sit over a table with some tea and discuss just about anything until we go like "WOW OK THAT'S INTERESTING LIFE IS DIFFERENT NOW".

Also personal observation, I think most INTPs females are great gossipers lol.
 

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Give them a puzzling programming task to divert them. Win by default of them abandoning the discussion.
Not all INTPs are programmers, though...
 
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