[MarioAndLuigi]

Flirting? What is it? How does it work? What is the purpose? Do other INTJs do it? Do other types experience this with INTJs or do it with INTJs? I would like to know more about this subject of flirting. (The "INTJ and Dating" thread lead me to this idea, so I decided to start a new thread right here, right now.)

I have zero understanding of this concept of flirting.

It seems there is a crazy-flirting scale, as a certain type may have more craziness, they also have more flirting tendencies; that's all I have.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

Flirting is supposed to convey romantic interest, but it's very confusing. Signs of flirting are often cited as laughter, smiling, light contact, etc...however, many of these things merely indicate pleasantness and are usually present in conversations between friends. This results in either misconstrued intentions or confusion (Is he being nice or just flirting? Is she laughing at my jokes because I'm funny or because she likes me?). The only "non-friendship-esque" flirting I've heard of is extended eye-contact, and that's really hard to pull off without looking creepy.

I don't know how people do it, man. I really don't.

I wish people can just be honest and say their intentions like saying "I like you and I would like to get to know you more." How hard is it to say that? There is no creepiness that goes into that statement. That sentence seems so simple to eliminate all the nonsensical flirting that seems to take place with other types.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

I rarely flirt, but it can be fun. It's like a little game to go back and forth with. After a while I'm done with it, though, and would like some straight talk. The purpose is really just to go back and forth and see if you can get the other person to take the initiative.

That just makes me have lots more questions to this topic. For starters, why not just take the initiative instead of playing this game to hint at getting somebody else to take the initiative?

This is a very strange game. The only winning move seems to be not to play.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

Because sometimes it's fun to see if I can get the other person to take the initiative and see what they'll do. Sometimes I'm not in any hurry so I'll have fun messing with someone and being messed with.

And no, that quote doesn't apply here. You don't lose merely by playing.

Why is it "fun" to do this? It is plenty flattering just to be straightforward; now that would be fun with some blushing by just saying "I like you and I would like to get to know you more," just say it straight up. What's wrong with that? Socializing and small talk is difficult enough as it is; why not lighten the load is all I'm saying? I'm trying my best to understand this social concept.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

Because it's a game. Games are fun. Seeing how much you can get someone to react through flirting with them.

I didn't say anything is wrong with it. If you want to be blunt, go for it. Socializing isn't hard, maybe for you it's hard. Small talk ain't hard either. Also, what's flattering to you isn't necessarily what's flattering for everyone else.

It's like when you go into a big battle. You don't commit your biggest pieces immediately, because you have no idea what the other commander has or will do, so if you do that immediately you can put yourself ina very dangerous situation and potentially one where you lose everything.

Same thing with flirting. You don't go all out immediately. You take your time and probe each other. There's no hurry.

I like how you alluded into a commander of war. I like Command and Conquer and understand that part very well. You have to know what the other side behind the shroud has to offer as a retaliation. War is life and death with survival tactics. This is not life and death (you survive regardless of what happens), it is talking, so being straightforward with honest intentions should not have a downfall and should be encouraged and thus eliminating the "flirting" that would go on between people.

P.S. Command and Conquer is a true game, if it really does not work out or it seems doubtful you can save the game and try one tactic, if it fails, just load the game file and try a different tactic. Real life is not a game because you can't save it and redo it differently and socializing is not war with other people, one should be friendly and honest while socializing, if you treat socializing like war, that would make you very hostile.

P.P.S. If I say, "I like you and I would like to get to know you more," and the other person retaliates by saying "thank you, but I don't feel the same way," I will be more than happy to move onto somebody else and be very happy not to have wasted my precious time with that person; hence this would make the flirting paradigm insignificant and a complete waste of one's time. If the other person treats that statement likewise, then we can actually get to know each other more by talking about our own life and finding commonalities and that is a "date". From here on out, I've actually been much into the INTJ and dating thread very much.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

I love flirting. I love the word play, banter, verbal teasing, and innuendo. It's a fun game.

When I'm romantically interested in someone I tend to be a lot more direct, although I do occasionally flirt to get a read on their interest levels before going with the direct approach.

Generally though, flirting is something I tend to do with people who are "safe" - where for whatever reason there is no real chance of a relationship or dating scenario. It's usually a co-worker, another woman, a male friend with whom there is no romantic interest, or someone who is substantially older/younger to the point where a relationship is impractical.

So I understand that you have reasons for not being in a relationship with a certain person; there is some kind of a turn-off to that person and I understand that. But why do you flirt with them? And what do you mean by "safe"? Are you trying to be friends with them, if so, do you have trouble establishing a new-found friendship with people?

Man, I'm having more questions and confusion on this topic than when this thread started. It is hell inside my head right now while I try to justify this ill-conceived and illogical topic. I still don't know what the purpose of this flirting is. What is the initiative or goal of this "game," as everybody seems to put it? Games are supposed to have rules and objectives; so what are the rules of this "game" and what are the objectives of this "game" of flirting? I think that is my best question and I hope somebody can answer it for me.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

Ok, first off, you don't know what the other side offers as retaliation. That's the whole point of flirting. You expose yourselves a little bit at a time and get comfortable and win each other over. The fact that you keep pushing being blunt and straightforward and talking as if flirting is a negative thing that everyone should eliminate just means this isn't really a discussion with open minds. You're stuck on your viewpoint and that's that. If you want to act like that, go for it, but don't act like flirting is some alien thing that you can never understand, and because you don't like it it must be a waste of time.

A 'true' game is one where you cannot load a save file. It's not a game if you can cheat. Who says flirting isn't friendly and honest?

You treat things as if time is so preciously limited that you should do everything to avoid wasting it. Sometimes, being relaxed brings you more opportunities than being focused on avoiding wasting time. You're focused on the end goal and wish to get there as quick as possible, so of course you wouldn't flirt.

Being vague is not being honest with true intentions. This playing does not give the result of any kind of friendship or relationship or nullify any potential friendship or relationship; it is like being "acquaintance-zoned"; sorry for meme-ing this discussion. Being vague works in a debate because that is actually a game and you don't want to give details and facts away willy-nilly! This is not a debate, if it is, please tell me, nicely.

I will reword, one of my prime questions: What are all the possible goals of flirting? If you want a relationship, then get into it, if you want a friendship, then get into it. If you want to remain forever acquaintances, fine, then just say "hi" or "wazzup" while passing in the halls. What will being vague in a social experience ever do? It is great to talk and get to know people, but what is with flirting? Is flirting just a label that people put on things? I will continue to ask questions as always until I have a sure understanding of just about anything and everything in the world.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

I'm just as lost as you are, man. People have told me that I am a huge flirt, but I have never intended to be one. I don't even know what I did to lead them to that conclusion. I tell jokes a lot, and if people (male or female) laugh, then I'll tell some more. The only time I ever actually try is when I've become good friends with a girl and I like her enough to start a relationship with her. And even then I don't know what I'm doing. I just listen to my gut and wing it.

I'm starting to think flirting is so vague of an action that it is just a label that people use when having a conversation. Nothing good can come out of being vague. One person will think, wow he really likes me, when in fact the person says, "I was just flirting." One may also think, if he must really not like me because he is just fooling around all the time, and then the relationship has been terminated. I think the world would be a better place in terms of a social atmosphere if everybody was just honest with one another, I've said it before and I will say it again, there is no time in life to waste on this "flirting" action. Let's get things done, let's do what is needed to be done or wanted to be done.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

When I say flirting is a very vague action, I mean one person might intend to converse with another and the other person thinks, he's flirting with me, when he's not; it's just a conversation. Flirting is a mixed message. I hope I have achieved some understanding on this flirting concept.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

Absolutely - Its some socially sanctioned fun, probably even required in some circumstances. Though, I am of the sort where I wouldn't know if someone was flirting with me if there was a huge bag of it burning on my front porch, and I often don't realize it until later. Much later. On the order of years. And that's only if it comes up in conversation:

Me: "That was a good party..."
Wife: "Yeah it was! Remember when K____ was putting the moves on you? I was laughing so hard...(snicker, snicker)"
Me (confused): "...wut?"
Wife (kinda confused, mostly amused): "Remember? K____ was following you around all night...kept grabbing you by the back pocket on your pants... R____ kept butting in so she could try and get in on the action... There was even a pool going to see who was going to get some lip action first - that's how I got that fifty bucks..."
Me (more confused): "...wut?"
Wife (more amused): "You really didn't see that? Any of it? At all?"
Me (increasingly confused): "...wut?"
Wife (increasingly amused): "So, riddle me this - did you ever know that I was flirting with you when we met?"
Me (ridiculously confused): "...wut?"
Wife (walking out of the room, ridiculously amused): "I love you..."
Me (just confused): "...wut?"




I have about a hundred responses to this - and yet, just cannot find the words...

Yes, exactly! That's what I mean by flirting is an extremely vague action! It has no rhyme nor reason.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

flirting is a stupid and poorly defined game with ambigious rules and is a colossal waste of time.

If you think I'm attractive and/or want to get to know me better, just f***ing say so (i do.) On the off chance I even recognise flirting, I'm more likely to be irritated than relaxed. It would have been much simpler and quicker to be forward.

If I'm down, I'll find or invent common ground (eg find something we both do or are willing to try) and get to know you in the context of that activity. The activity serves as a distraction from the social pressure and the excercise of finding acceptable activities, as well as the conversations throughout, gives both parties insight into the others interests and lifestyle.

Exactly, how does one recognize it going on? I'm pondering every conversation I've ever had with a girl and I wonder "was that flirting?" if it was "what was it and how do I repeat it?" I thought it was all just random conversations. Most of you are vague by describing the experience as fun or gamelike or word play, banter, verbal teasing, and innuendo with strangers; that does not explain it at all; lots of things are fun, lots of things are gamelike. How do you do these things and how do you know that the other person is doing these things like word play, banter, verbal teasing, and innuendo?

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

Flirting is supposed to convey romantic interest, but it's very confusing. Signs of flirting are often cited as laughter, smiling, light contact, etc...however, many of these things merely indicate pleasantness and are usually present in conversations between friends. This results in either misconstrued intentions or confusion (Is he being nice or just flirting? Is she laughing at my jokes because I'm funny or because she likes me?). The only "non-friendship-esque" flirting I've heard of is extended eye-contact, and that's really hard to pull off without looking creepy.

I don't know how people do it, man. I really don't.

There are a lot of prank videos of people staring at others on youtube and I suppose that is flirting and yes it does look creepy at times. I sort of want to try it out. Although if I'm flirting, the other person may not have any idea that I am and it is even harder to tell if she is flirting or just being nice. Same goes for laughter, smiling, and light contact. It is difficult to say that every smile is flirting and every laugh ever made is flirting; maybe it is, I don't know; that is what I mean by vague. Is it okay to tell the person, "I'm trying to flirt with you" just to get the message across?

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

i think what defines flirting to me, as opposed to the other things, is with flirting there's an element of risk. it's take-a-risk-get-safe-take-a-risk play, like teasing the ocean to see if it can manage to get your shoes wet. if that helps.

I see. I see. Please go on.

So would dirty jokes count? That seems pretty risky. Or turning something the professor says and saying something to the girl next to me into something dirty and sexual based on something in lecture; there are tons of opportunities in biology for that. I've actually done that in a conversation about breast-feeding; that was not flirting by any means, it was just a dirty joke in passing in a convo; I don't know how that happened; it just did.

I suppose sarcasm could also be considered as flirting, but nobody has mentioned that yet. Nobody seems to understand my sarcasm, even though I always understand theirs.

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

I thank all of these posts for helping me to understand this "art" of flirting much more. I suppose in a twisted and warped way, I have flirted without knowing it and other people have a hard time realizing that I am flirting with them or may be not. I think NF's have an easier time with this whole flirting "game".

 

[MarioAndLuigi]

There is a guy who apparently was hitting on me for more than a year. And I don't know, I always took the "flirting signs" as jokes. Now I think he got bored of my "apathic attitude", but it wasn't apathy! I didn't know he was flirting! He basically wasted a whole year of his life, I don't understand.

I find the whole flirting thing so annoying and pointless that probably if I ever tried to do it, I'd had to pretend I'm playing a character who enjoys flirting... and I maybe that could actually go well, hmmm... No, that's probably not a good idea...

I know what you mean by that. When I have tried this flirting thing (extremely rarely), I have to be somebody who I am not and really put myself out there. It was just filled with complete weirdness afterwards and I never came in contact with those people ever again, they are just strangers. If you are curious and never done it before, you should try it once and just treat it as a "social experiment" like I did just to get a taste of what other humans deal with on a regular basis. I'm still not sure whether what I did was flirting or not, so I'm just going to call it border-line flirting; it's too vague of a concept for me to justify flirting.