[panda8888]

Hi! I am an ENFP girl, deeply in love with an INTJ man. In fact, I've been in love with him for 3 years. He has a wife, so i tried to forget him several times ( I know it is not right), but since I see him everyday, I haven't managed to do that .
We get alog very well and I've always felt a kind of attraction from his side as well, which just makes things even harder.
The thing is that i decided on confessing him everything, and I did it a week ago. There was a tension between the two of us lately because of our strange relationhip, so he was not shocked at all. I told him, that i am really in love with him and the reason i haven't confessed earlier is that i never wanted to lose him. He seemed burdened. He told me that he could not neglect me and that he is interested in me and sees me as an amazing human being. Later on, He added that he thinks of me a lot and he is attracted to me. After saying that he felt guilty, so we called it a day and agreed to talk more next day. We did talk, he has cleared his mind and told me tha he knows his for ages and he was less emotional all in all. We decided to stay friends and communicate less, no messages, and no alone time together. A week later we talked more. He said he thinks of me even more than before, and he cant bare not to communicate with me, but eventually we agreed on contionouing not to write each other and stuff. However the next day he came to me and asked me how i was. He feels bad that he cant be determined enough to cut the ties, now he says he wants to have more conversations with me ,just the two of us alone, and he began to message me again, in a more intimate way.
In the end I feel closer to him than ever, he is so open about his feelings and I feel his trust. He is kinder than ever, smiles more than ever. And I don't know why or what is happening. Is he playing? Though it doesn't seem like that, and he is not the player kind of person. I am interested in your opinion. Thank you for your responses in advance!

 

[Wild]

You can better decide based upon his body language/overall demeanor whether or not he's playing around with you than forum people can, but from what I can tell, he seems genuinely interested to a shallow extent.

That said, it sounds like he doesn't want to pick. He's comfortable with his wife and probably loves her, but right now you're new and exciting, and he wants both. It's still cowardly/douchey for him to even be doing this, regardless of whether or not he genuinely has feelings for you.

You need to make a decision here, since he apparently doesn't want to. I think that out of respect for yourself, you need to confront him on this. Ask him how he feels about his wife - is their marriage dying? Is he interested in you because he sees you as a way out? Are you just exciting to him right now, and he doesn't want to give that up? Really get to the bottom line of this. You should be able to tell whether or not he's lying depending on his body language/how much he hesitates/gets shook by your directness.

My advice? If he's not interested in his wife anymore and he really does want you more, he needs to split with her. Chances are he's genuinely interested in you, but would pick his wife over you. If that's the case, GTFO. Don't make yourself the second woman in this situation, that only makes you look terrible and demonstrates a severe lack of respect for the wife, and your own self-respect. Don't allow yourself to sit in this limbo where he comes to you when he feels like it but otherwise lives his life with her. If you're gonna stay with him, he has to choose you, and not her. There's nothing more pathetic than sitting in the sidelines anxiously waiting for attention from a man when he's already married and would choose her over you anyway. If you believe you're worth more than that (which you are), act like it.

Finally, even if he really does want you more than his wife and miraculously breaks up with her for you, just know that he will do this kind of shit in the future with you. You're not some special case that'll never happen again. Someday, unless you're lucky, some new interesting girl that was just like you will come along and he'll do the same thing.

My two cents for you there. Make good decisions. Good luck!

 

[entheos]

I've seen this before, with 2 INTJ males actually, both married (not to each other, but to women lol).

He is playing you. He is comfortable with his wife, and you're the side chick. He's having an ego boost.

I agree with what @Wild said. Good advice. Except I don't think that he'll leave his wife; and I don't think he should necessarily, but then the OP doesn't provide info on the state of the marriage. But a commitment is a commitment, imo, and one should have integrity. I asked my two INTJ friends, and they said they never had intentions of leaving their wives, they just enjoyed the adventure of having their egos and little hearties stroked by the side-women.
My own opinion is that you should have self-respect & self-love and look for someone who considers you Number 1 in their life, not a side dish. And he will tell you all the tender words you want to hear, but don't let yourself be fooled by words. Actions are what matter. Actions are the truth. Do his actions indicate that you are N1 in his life? (rhetoric question)

 

[Red Panda]

It doesn't seem like "he's playing you", but it still doesn't mean he's likely to choose you over his wife and future kid. He is likely becoming infatuated with you, wanting to experience this new rush of feelings that, let's be honest, make people feel desired and alive.
Unless his relationship with his wife is over and they want to break up this is not going to end well for you or him.

 

[BenjiMac]

If I could offer a male perspective;

I agree with much of whats been said so far.

However, I'd disagree with the assertion that he would repeat this behaviour or that he should stay with his wife for reason of integrity. Thats a very outdated, moralised view to my ear.

Humans are not naturally monogamous, I've seen different numbers but somewhere between 7 - 14 years things tend to go from routine to wholly unfulfilling. Basically, our natural instinct is to pair up to mate and to ensure the child survives infancy. Beyond that time, hormones will no longer do the heavy lifting.

It is of course possible to remain happy and loyal beyond this time but it requires a level of work and open mindedness that is somewhat uncommon.

We don't pick a haircut for life, we don't pick food for life, we don't pick a home for life and I think it's absurd to believe we choose a partner for life. We are within a construct built for another age - an age when disease and poverty were much greater threats and through religion and, almost entirely male, insecurity we have lectured and moralised this idea of perpetual fidelity into the collective concioussess - imo primarily to control women though it effects both sexes equally. You may think this is a bold assertion but I invite you to look to other cultures and religions and their treatment of women and marriage and you'll see, in some cases, a more extreme amplification of what's seen to this day in the christianised world.

That said, nor do I buy the 'once a cheater, always a cheater' line. Sometimes things don't work out but we get it right the next time around. As I've asserted above, it won't all be sunshine - the feelings will wane with time without serious work, communication and honesty. But history need not repeat itself - marriages that open up when this entropy begins to set in tend to remain happier and healthier, which seemed counter intuitive when i first heard it but given time to consider it, it makes a lot of sense.

To quote British Sit-Com Peep Show;

"You can't love more than once person"

"Of course you can!"

"Well yeah.. but you don't. You pick one and then pretend not to like anyone else."

Thats my assessment too - adult life is just a series of masks we switch between as appropriate and one of those is that many of us (not all) will walk around in stale relationships, pretending to be fine with it because we feel thats whats expected and that others will judge us for not conforming.

I don't judge you nor the subject of your affection that harshly. However, I'd take the advice of the others here because it is excellent advice if you are seeking a traditional relationship - Judge him by his actions and don't allow yourself to be messed around. Be prepared that it may be as others say, that he likes you but not enough - and then consider what that reality means to you. Don't misunderstand my earlier points, you don't have to accept being the other woman and shouldnt if it is not what you want.

However, it is not your job to consider his wife here, as cold as that sounds. If you want him, there's nothing wrong with that - all you can do is let him know and let him decide.

I speak from experience here, I've been in your posiiton. Ultimately things worked out but when I explained my reticence and why things took so long - I was admonished for it. She is her own woman, she is not property of her boyfriend and thus off limits. I should have been direct and let her decide - that was the message I was given and Id relay it to you in the hope it helps.

 

[ponpiri]

Glad you posted this in the S&R forum, OP, because you set yourself up to be roasted asking this question to INTJs.

@BenjiMac

Nah, don't even bother with this monogamy isn't natural BS. That's an excuse cheaters use to justify their actions. If you don't want to be shackled, say it. If you want to fuck around, say it. If it's natural to have multiple partners and "love" more people at once [lol], then don't hide behind pop evolutionary theory.

Once a cheater, always a cheater unless the cheater realizes that the issue lies within their inner world rather than their "circumstances." And I haven't met a man that didn't regret leaving his first wife, even the few that went on to marry the side chick. The only person I can think of is a woman, but she didn't care about her husband anyway and only married him for financial support. So be careful what you wish for OP because going by your tone, it doesn't seem as if you've thought about the future, only your feelings right now.

 

[BenjiMac]

@BenjiMac

Nah, don't even bother with this monogamy isn't natural BS.

It's not BS - it might not be what you believe - or want to believe, but we are surrounded by the evidence. Science is building a pretty clear picture on the subject - we are at best socially monogamous (Have multiple sexual partners but remain co-habiting with a single partner for practical, economic and societal reasons) - but the thing about social monogamy is in the title.. it's presumed to be socially constructed. Even then, only 17% of human cultures have a concept of strict monogamy.

I should be clear that i am not arguing the Polygamy is morally virtuous - only that monogamy is not our natural instinct.. because it isn't.

I'm in the Oscar Wilde camp - we should aspire to defy nature whenever we can.. but should accept it's truth and recognise we won't win every fight.

 

[ponpiri]

It's not BS - it might not be what you believe - or want to believe, but we are surrounded by the evidence. Science is building a pretty clear picture on the subject - we are at best socially monogamous (Have multiple sexual partners but remain co-habiting with a single partner for practical, economic and societal reasons) - but the thing about social monogamy is in the title.. it's presumed to be socially constructed. Even then, only 17% of human cultures have a concept of strict monogamy.

I should be clear that i am not arguing the Polygamy is morally virtuous - only that monogamy is not our natural instinct.. because it isn't.

"Nah, don't even bother with this monogamy isn't natural BS. That's an excuse cheaters use to justify their actions."

I didn't take your comment as a nod towards polygamy. I clearly said it's an excuse a cheaters use. If monogamy isn't your thing, fine, don't use ET as an excuse.

 

[BenjiMac]

"Nah, don't even bother with this monogamy isn't natural BS. That's an excuse cheaters use to justify their actions."

I didn't take your comment as a nod towards polygamy. I clearly said it sounded like an excuse a cheater would use.

Apologies, I misread your statement.

Still, by it's reality it is, on some level, an explanation.. if not an excuse for their behaviour. Though again, the moral code they have breached is artifically imposed and thats a whole bigger topic.

Sometimes our natural instincts are violent.. I wouldn't advocate for that as an excuse for murder. Though I do see love/sex as a different domain entirely so it really becomes 6 of one, half a dozen of another.

 

[Red Panda]

If I could offer a male perspective;

I agree with much of whats been said so far.

However, I'd disagree with the assertion that he would repeat this behaviour or that he should stay with his wife for reason of integrity. Thats a very outdated, moralised view to my ear.

Humans are not naturally monogamous, I've seen different numbers but somewhere between 7 - 14 years things tend to go from routine to wholly unfulfilling. Basically, our natural instinct is to pair up to mate and to ensure the child survives infancy. Beyond that time, hormones will no longer do the heavy lifting.

It is of course possible to remain happy and loyal beyond this time but it requires a level of work and open mindedness that is somewhat uncommon.

We don't pick a haircut for life, we don't pick food for life, we don't pick a home for life and I think it's absurd to believe we choose a partner for life. We are within a construct built for another age - an age when disease and poverty were much greater threats and through religion and, almost entirely male, insecurity we have lectured and moralised this idea of perpetual fidelity into the collective concioussess - imo primarily to control women though it effects both sexes equally. You may think this is a bold assertion but I invite you to look to other cultures and religions and their treatment of women and marriage and you'll see, in some cases, a more extreme amplification of what's seen to this day in the christianised world.

That said, nor do I buy the 'once a cheater, always a cheater' line. Sometimes things don't work out but we get it right the next time around. As I've asserted above, it won't all be sunshine - the feelings will wane with time without serious work, communication and honesty. But history need not repeat itself - marriages that open up when this entropy begins to set in tend to remain happier and healthier, which seemed counter intuitive when i first heard it but given time to consider it, it makes a lot of sense.

To quote British Sit-Com Peep Show;

"You can't love more than once person"

"Of course you can!"

"Well yeah.. but you don't. You pick one and then pretend not like anyone else."

Thats my assessment too - adult life is just a series of masks we switch between as appropriate and one of those is that many of us (not all) will walk around in stale relationships, pretending to be fine with it because we feel thats whats expected and that others will judge us for not conforming.

I don't judge you nor the subject of your affection that harshly. However, I'd take the advice of the others here because it is excellent advice if you are seeking a traditional relationship - Judge him by his actions and don't allow yourself to be messed around. Be prepared that it may be as others say, that he likes you but not enough - and then consider what that reality means to you. Don't misunderstand my earlier points, you don't have to accept being the other woman and shouldnt if it is not what you want.

However, it is not your job to consider his wife here, as cold as that sounds. If you want him, there's nothing wrong with that - all you can do is let him know and let him decide.

I speak from experience here, I've been in your posiiton. Ultimately things worked out but when I explained my reticence and why things took so long - I was admonished for it. She is her own woman, she is not property of her boyfriend and thus off limits. I should have been direct and let her decide - that was the message I was given and Id relay it to you in the hope it helps.

I agree with every word but I was bored to type so much myself so thanks for that :kitteh:
I think people should only be allowed to marry until after they've been together for 5 years :laughing: i'm kidding about the "allowed" part but I do slightly judge those who marry early, like in 2 or 3 years. I don't expect them to last (not that I'm disappointed when they do of course) and I wish people were not so impulsive with such things.

 

I flirted with a married man once, or rather I was in limerence, but I didn't know before it was too late as he chose to not disclose that info until after 1 1/2 month or so of us flirting sexually. He just finally decided to tell me he's in a relationship for 3 years and will get married soon. It was already too late for me so I couldn't be rational and stop, though I did withdraw for a while until it spiraled again and became EVEN more sexual (still just flirting though). I thought we could be friends instead, but he would always make it sexual and it was very hard for me to resist because that's the only discussion he responded to and he'd divert all conversation to that. He was super stressed, possibly depressed (ENTx I think) and told me these conversation helped him unwind. But they were just an emotional roller coaster for me as I would fantasize more. He didn't even tell me they expected a child and when I learned that through other means I finally snapped out of it and stopped all contact. I just felt it was pointless and it took too much out of me.
It was an incredibly weird situation because we never talked about what we're doing, except what I mentioned about him unwinding, there was no straightforwardness just this weird over the top flirting game that led nowhere. And the way he talked about not caring for marriage and only marrying because "she" wants it and how he "wanted an artist, but she's a good girl" just made me feel there's a chance for more.

 

[Inveniet]

ENFP and INTJ attraction can be strong.
That doesn't make it right. (Leaving the cheating aside, just theoretically right)
The ENFP and INTJ attraction is an illusion, nothing more.
Do yourself and him a favour and don't create massive drama over an illusion.
Nothing can come of it other than pain and suffering.
Except if his wife is an ESFJ, then you would be doing him a favour.
Better an illusion over hell.

This is just my personal "judgment" over the way the types mix.
You may come to a different conclusion and think you can fix reality.
Good luck with that.
In my world, I have the POV that one can't fix people,
they are what they are, and trying to change them is a fools journey.

The basis for my judgment: (Feel free to disagree)
Socionics - the16types.info - Mirage relations

their lack in understanding the motives, goals and actions of one another has an inhibiting effect on their ability to cooperate and often makes joint achievement impossible.

These relations in their course begin to feel boring and stagnant.

Lacking in sincerity, these relations become boring. Ethical partner accuse the logical partner in "logical egoism", while logical partner accuse ethical partner in carelessness and frivolity.

When discussing a problem, partners are interested in different aspects, which often brings up a question: "how can he be interested in such nonsense?" and leads to irritation.

Yeah, just don't, especially with so much as stake at his end.
It would just be cruel to lure him into a promise you cannot uphold.

 

[Wild]

@BenjiMac

I agree with your assertion that humans aren't naturally monogamous for their lives; the evidence really does suggest that we truly aren't wired that way for the most part. Cheating frankly wouldn't be so rampant despite massive societal pressure against it if we were wired to be truly monogamous - we at least have some sort of extra "flavor" in there that makes our mating system more complicated.

I don't think that's relevant, however.

I tried to look up some cheating statistics on this from a decent source, but all the statistics were so different from each other that I find it kinda useless to even use any in my argument anymore (it was universal, however, that someone who cheats is significantly more likely to do it again as opposed to someone who has never cheated). So, instead, I'll just use a more psychological approach.

There are two overarching factors influencing every behavior: the situational factors, and the personal factors. Situational would be anything that's making someone act this way from the outside, while personal would be any characteristics the person has that makes them behave that way. You can break down any behavior to situational and personal factors; generally it's a mixture of both, with more or less of one than the other.

As far as we know: the situation here, for this guy, is that he has a wife that he's attached to, yet is becoming infatuated with this girl because she's new. He has expressed no desire to leave his wife for her. Likely, he falls into the very pattern that you were talking about: the attraction (or at least the excitement) has waned in his relationship with his wife over time, and he's now found someone brand new with whom the attraction is much stronger than it currently is with his wife.

The personal factors: Willful cheating requires a set of personal factors to occur. What those personal factors are depends on the situation, and I'm not saying that cheaters are bad or trying to condemn them. Nonetheless, this guy has shown that he has the personal factors to cheat in the given situation. At the very least, he has shown a willingness to bend his morals when the given situation occurs, as he has continued flirting with the OP despite feeling guilty.

So he's cheating for variety - which is what most men who cheat cheat for, as opposed to most women who cheat for emotional reasons. Men who cheat have been shown to be just as likely to do it in a happy relationship as an unhappy one. I can pull that statistic for you if you'd like, though I got it from a book, lol. A book by one of the best evolutionary psychologists out there, though.

Bottom line? this guy has shown that he has the personal factors to make him cheat in a relationship where he loves the person, but the attraction has waned and someone new comes along. And guess what? Even if she does somehow get him to leave his wife for her, that exact situation is inevitably going to happen in a few years for their relationship too. For the most part, the same situational factors will inevitably pop up; if the personal factors don't change, he's going to do it again.

With all of this said, there's a chance he may not. I can't absolutely damn this guy to cheating on her too (if he gets with her - probably won't even happen), but it would be absolutely unwise for her not to expect this situation or some variation of it to happen again.

 

[ponpiri]

ENFP and INTJ attraction can be strong.
That doesn't make it right. (Leaving the cheating aside, just theoretically right)
The ENFP and INTJ attraction is an illusion, nothing more.
Do yourself and him a favour and don't create massive drama over an illusion.
Nothing can come of it other than pain and suffering.
Except if his wife is an ESFJ, then you would be doing him a favour.
Better an illusion over hell.

This is just my personal "judgment" over the way the types mix.
You may come to a different conclusion and think you can fix reality.
Good luck with that.
In my world, I have the POV that one can't fix people,
they are what they are, and trying to change them is a fools journey.

The basis for my judgment: (Feel free to disagree)
Socionics - the16types.info - Mirage relations









Yeah, just don't, especially with so much as stake at his end.
It would just be cruel to lure him into a promise you cannot uphold.

I wouldn't even take the typing seriously, tbh. There was a massive thread that was recently resurrected in which an INFJ woman was infatuated with a married "INTJ" coworker. She argued with us about how she's trying to liberate him from his family, not cheat. The guy found the thread, became disgusted with her, quit speaking to her altogether, had to quit her job and everything and she was left with egg on her face. Also, it turned out he's INFJ anyway.

If I had the link, I would give it to OP as an example of what will likely happen. This seems like a losing situation for her all around.

 

[changos]

i decided on confessing him everything, and I did it a week ago. There was a tension between the two of us lately because of our strange relationhip, so he was not shocked at all. I told him, that i am really in love with him and the reason i haven't confessed earlier is that i never wanted to lose him. He seemed burdened.

I'm the kind of guy who thinks this is good, it can help to relieve tension and anxiety, both can only multiply disconfort and pressure. But what happen nexts gets trickier. What do you want? things can get ugly from here, you did one thing, ok, now think of the second if any. I don't think he is doing a bad move, but he is increasing intimacy, you both. Intimacy is good, but in terms of friends VS someone liking someone that's something else and can become a problem, a triangle.

I'm intj, I've seen how other men can take advantage of this to have sex or an adventure, etc. I've seen it depends on morals too, not just any men regardless of type will get involved or seek sex, even if they do doesn't mean leaving the wife. BUT I've seen me, intj, have been more open to get to know, listen, and understand the new person as a human being. This has been misinterpreted, and I've got friends telling me "don't do it" I mean I've been more open on contact without any further interest than just talking, as if the fire couldn't touch me (it can't). But that's just about the mind, doesn't mean a relationship is being built.

 

[Inveniet]

I wouldn't even take the typing seriously, tbh.

Probably not, but I like to rant about how ENFPs and INTJs are not compatible,
if for no other reason than to remind myself.

I get the impression that she has already decided to position herself to just fall into his arms,
whenever she manages to convince him that she is better than his current partner.
Since I'm off the basic position that one can't fix people I extend that to her too.
I can't fix her.
She will end up doing whatever she will end up doing.

I'm just here to say, this is a bad idea, not for the moral reasons,
but because of techincal reasons related to type.
She ignores that at her own peril.
Since I probably won't be around to watch the fallout,
I guess this post can double up as a pre-emptive "I told you so".

Morally we all know it is a terrible situation, but she wouldn't have made the opening post,
without being okay at base with the morality of stealing the guy.
She will of course just position herself, drop hints, and let him do the "seduction".
Leaving her with plausible deniability, as it was he who made the move.
Sort of like undercover police that gets someone to commit a crime,
and then arrest them for it, if the cover is blown later.
Hard to prove their foul play, but still not very clean,
but if one only care about results, very effective.

That is how the situation looks to me on the surface.
I may be wrong about a number of points, but that is a given over the internet.

 

[ponpiri]

Probably not, but I like to rant about how ENFPs and INTJs are not compatible,
if for no other reason than to remind myself.

I get the impression that she has already decided to position herself to just fall into his arms,
whenever she manages to convince him that she is better than his current partner.
Since I'm off the basic position that one can't fix people I extend that to her too.
I can't fix her.
She will end up doing whatever she will end up doing.

I'm just here to say, this is a bad idea, not for the moral reasons,
but because of techincal reasons related to type.
She ignores that at her own peril.
Since I probably won't be around to watch the fallout,
I guess this post can double up as a pre-emptive "I told you so".

Morally we all know it is a terrible situation, but she wouldn't have made the opening post,
without being okay at base with the morality of stealing the guy.
She will of course just position herself, drop hints, and let him do the "seduction".
Leaving her with plausible deniability, as it was he who made the move.
Sort of like undercover police that gets someone to commit a crime,
and then arrest them for it, if the cover is blown later.
Hard to prove their foul play, but still not very clean,
but if one only care about results, very effective.

That is how the situation looks to me on the surface.
I may be wrong about a number of points, but that is a given over the internet.

That is called entrapment which is also a wonderful movie starring Catherine Zeta Jones and Sean Connery.

 

[And1]

I've not been given any information on the other woman here but I'd like to advocate for her and ask you how you'd feel if your future husband were doing this with another woman. Then realize you may just be in that position later in life.

 

[BenjiMac]

@BenjiMac

I agree with your assertion that humans aren't naturally monogamous for their lives; the evidence really does suggest that we truly aren't wired that way for the most part. Cheating frankly wouldn't be so rampant despite massive societal pressure against it if we were wired to be truly monogamous - we at least have some sort of extra "flavor" in there that makes our mating system more complicated.

I don't think that's relevant, however.

I tried to look up some cheating statistics on this from a decent source, but all the statistics were so different from each other that I find it kinda useless to even use any in my argument anymore (it was universal, however, that someone who cheats is significantly more likely to do it again as opposed to someone who has never cheated). So, instead, I'll just use a more psychological approach.

There are two overarching factors influencing every behavior: the situational factors, and the personal factors. Situational would be anything that's making someone act this way from the outside, while personal would be any characteristics the person has that makes them behave that way. You can break down any behavior to situational and personal factors; generally it's a mixture of both, with more or less of one than the other.

As far as we know: the situation here, for this guy, is that he has a wife that he's attached to, yet is becoming infatuated with this girl because she's new. He has expressed no desire to leave his wife for her. Likely, he falls into the very pattern that you were talking about: the attraction (or at least the excitement) has waned in his relationship with his wife over time, and he's now found someone brand new with whom the attraction is much stronger than it currently is with his wife.

The personal factors: Willful cheating requires a set of personal factors to occur. What those personal factors are depends on the situation, and I'm not saying that cheaters are bad or trying to condemn them. Nonetheless, this guy has shown that he has the personal factors to cheat in the given situation. At the very least, he has shown a willingness to bend his morals when the given situation occurs, as he has continued flirting with the OP despite feeling guilty.

So he's cheating for variety - which is what most men who cheat cheat for, as opposed to most women who cheat for emotional reasons. Men who cheat have been shown to be just as likely to do it in a happy relationship as an unhappy one. I can pull that statistic for you if you'd like, though I got it from a book, lol. A book by one of the best evolutionary psychologists out there, though.

Bottom line? this guy has shown that he has the personal factors to make him cheat in a relationship where he loves the person, but the attraction has waned and someone new comes along. And guess what? Even if she does somehow get him to leave his wife for her, that exact situation is inevitably going to happen in a few years for their relationship too. For the most part, the same situational factors will inevitably pop up; if the personal factors don't change, he's going to do it again.

With all of this said, there's a chance he may not. I can't absolutely damn this guy to cheating on her too (if he gets with her - probably won't even happen), but it would be absolutely unwise for her not to expect this situation or some variation of it to happen again.

I think we're in total agreement, we just placed differing emphases into our explanations.

I pointed out that conditions combined with human nature make cheating not just commonplace but occasionally, inevitable.

Your point was that the conditions that caused him to cheat could arise again. I would agree.

However, you admit we can't damn him to do it again and again, I concur. I don't believe it's inevitable he would cheat again, but the relationship will require real effort to achieve that result. More effort than many people feel able or willing to make.

As someone who was cheated on a few times in my youth and who went on to return the favour I came to some realisations. One of the girls in question maintains to this day that she did love me, she just felt strong physical attraction to others in addition to me.

At one time, for me, the two were one and the same. To be physically attracted to another precluded her love being genuine. In time I came to accept her point of view and came to realise that even if I had been able to prevent her sleeping with another guy, she still wanted to and that was what really cut deep and it would forever be beyond my control. I didn't care about her happiness or needs and wants, I cared only that she behaved the way I wanted her to. It was control over her sexuality - yes most modern relationships hinge on the mutual agreement to remain monogamous, but as soon as natural desire enters the picture that covenant is in a sense already broken because she no longer truly wants to remain monogamous but feels she must to maintain the relationship and societal approval.

So yes, she was shitty for going behind my back but ultimately she is human and flawed, just like I am, and perpetual, unending monogamous loyalty was an unfair standard to hold anyone to.

I decided it wasnt worth holding on to anger over. I even came to sympathise with the reality of her feelings. Whatever she did, one of us was being selfish on some level.

Ultimately, I don't have to be happy about the choices she made but I can't truly condemn her for them.

 

[Wild]

@BenjiMac

I hope you still get that cheating is a really fucked up thing to do to someone though. Like ponpiri said, if you don't want to be monogamous, just be honest. There's nothing wrong with that. But to go behind their back like a coward? It's pathetic, sorry.

I know I said in my last post I wasn't trying to say that it's bad, but that was just to get my point at the time across. I definitely do think it's messed up and there's no excuse for it - once again, nonmonogamy is fine. But cheating is something to be ashamed of. It's one of the biggest ways to say "fuck you, I don't care about your self worth, trust, or happiness" to someone who loves you.

I'm not judging you as a person fyi, you just sound like you're making excuses for cheating rather than simply saying monogamy is an unfair standard.

 

[Acrylic]

The thread can be summed up as follows...

Baby won't you keep your distance
You're getting too close to me
I've been feeling my resistance
Melting away :smilet-digitalpoint
But she said she wouldn't mind
If I spent a little time
Said you were a friend of mine
She could trust me out of sight
Now two bottles later on :very_drunk:
And I think I stayed too long
I forget where I belong :confused2:
Saying please don't turn me on

It's getting late I know I should be gone
Don't push me 'cause I'm not that strong (no, no, no, no)
You can never make it right frooom wrooong
Please don't touch me there
Stop playing with my mind it's not faaaiiir
When you know I've got another who cares
And she's waiting for me somewhere out there

Don't say my love is too familiar
'Cause she's everything to me
Don't say what she don't know won't kill her
I'm playing away
Put your hands where I can see
Baby you know what I mean
'Cause you're looking good to me
And you know I feel the heat
As you button up your dress
And I wake up in your bed
With a head full of regrets :1892:
Saying please don't turn me on​