[Zeitgeist]

I want to address this very serious issue with INTJs. I have a very important INTJ in my life, someone I love very much and would sacrifice anything for. The problem is that he seems to experience an extreme Ni takeover, to the point where he cuts himself off from new important information. This includes new information about me, which causes him to judge me harshly and push me away. He also makes sweeping generalizations about me without taking into consideration idiosyncracies, circumstance, mental state, external influence, and other factors. He cannot look past things I've done before being with him. This is destructive to our relationship as he keeps me at a distance and keeps revisiting his same concerns over and over again.

I've told my INTJ everything about me, shared with him volumes of information and all of my thoughts. I've invited him to look closely at me and analyze me. I do this to avoid him making snap, intuitive judgments about me but he still sometimes goes back to his concerns as though we hadn't already addressed them 1,000 times before. It's tempting for me to get upset but I believe the reason he does this is because his intuition will not let go of its initial assesment, no matter what else he learns about me.

I'm looking for a few INTJs who are honest with themselves and can admit to having this problem with their psyche. How do you experience it? Do you have any methods, tools, or thought processes which help you counteract this tendency? I welcome anecdotal stories about how you came to the conclusion that you had this problem and what you did about it. Anything is helpful.

 

[intjdude]

He cannot look past things I've done before being with him. This is destructive to our relationship as he keeps me at a distance and keeps revisiting his same concerns over and over again.

Yeah that argument isn't going anywhere with most rationals I reckon, especially with those that have high standards. One cannot separate a person from his/her past behavior and judge that person ignoring that past.

 

[kikidmonkey]

the problem is, judging people based on what they have done in the past is actually an excellent indicator of what they will do in the future.

Also judging people based on their past is the only way to judge someone. you can't judge a person on what they are going to do until the do it, and then it's in the past!

 

[Abraxas]

I want to address this very serious issue with INTJs. I have a very important INTJ in my life, someone I love very much and would sacrifice anything for. The problem is that he seems to experience an extreme Ni takeover, to the point where he cuts himself off from new important information. This includes new information about me, which causes him to judge me harshly and push me away. He also makes sweeping generalizations about me without taking into consideration idiosyncracies, circumstance, mental state, external influence, and other factors. He cannot look past things I've done before being with him. This is destructive to our relationship as he keeps me at a distance and keeps revisiting his same concerns over and over again.

I've told my INTJ everything about me, shared with him volumes of information and all of my thoughts. I've invited him to look closely at me and analyze me. I do this to avoid him making snap, intuitive judgments about me but he still sometimes goes back to his concerns as though we hadn't already addressed them 1,000 times before. It's tempting for me to get upset but I believe the reason he does this is because his intuition will not let go of its initial assesment, no matter what else he learns about me.

I'm looking for a few INTJs who are honest with themselves and can admit to having this problem with their psyche. How do you experience it? Do you have any methods, tools, or thought processes which help you counteract this tendency? I welcome anecdotal stories about how you came to the conclusion that you had this problem and what you did about it. Anything is helpful.

I really hate to do this and be so fatalistic, but you asked for honesty from those who see themselves exhibiting this kind of self-destructive behavioral pattern, and, well, I must admit that I tend to make some sweeping generalizations and act on false assumptions sometimes that are based on a bad first impression of someone. But I don't have any good news for you. The reality is, I myself am very much helpless to this kind of habitual way of interacting with my environment, and if Jung is to be believed, then it is a byproduct of my cognitive biases - and this is really what you are coming up against, it seems.

Against such a biological and psychological barrier, I can't recommend much. How exactly are you going to get around this? It is like asking them to be a different person. I don't believe that is really a viable solution, because it would be necessarily self-negating for him, and I wouldn't even recommend that kind of behavior to him either, since it would not be in either of your mutual interests.

My only advice, then, as weak as it is in the end, is simply to try and ride it out and hope that things 'surface' eventually, and maybe this is one of those 'everything is the darkest just before dawn' kind of things. Just don't wait forever. Eventually you might have to recognize that he is not the right person for you, or you are not the right person for him, and at that point, there's nothing left but to just let go.

 

[Cetanu]

I want to address this very serious issue with INTJs. I have a very important INTJ in my life, someone I love very much and would sacrifice anything for. The problem is that he seems to experience an extreme Ni takeover, to the point where he cuts himself off from new important information. This includes new information about me, which causes him to judge me harshly and push me away. He also makes sweeping generalizations about me without taking into consideration idiosyncracies, circumstance, mental state, external influence, and other factors. He cannot look past things I've done before being with him. This is destructive to our relationship as he keeps me at a distance and keeps revisiting his same concerns over and over again.

I've told my INTJ everything about me, shared with him volumes of information and all of my thoughts. I've invited him to look closely at me and analyze me. I do this to avoid him making snap, intuitive judgments about me but he still sometimes goes back to his concerns as though we hadn't already addressed them 1,000 times before. It's tempting for me to get upset but I believe the reason he does this is because his intuition will not let go of its initial assesment, no matter what else he learns about me.

I'm looking for a few INTJs who are honest with themselves and can admit to having this problem with their psyche. How do you experience it? Do you have any methods, tools, or thought processes which help you counteract this tendency? I welcome anecdotal stories about how you came to the conclusion that you had this problem and what you did about it. Anything is helpful.

I have a task for you.

Re-write this post from your INTJ friend's perspective. Pretend you are him and then explain the situation again. If you say something like "I keep putting people at a distance and it's really destructive, I wish I could stop." then I know you're bullshitting. Nobody says that about themselves unless they are guilt-ridden in which case the entire problem wouldn't exist.

Ready? Go.

 

[Zeitgeist]

It's sound logic and I see your point as I have told my INTJ many times. Nevertheless, I've done a lot of things over the course of my life, both good and bad. The problem lies in ignoring the good and focusing solely on the bad. If it were as simple as "I look at your past actions to determine your future" then one can safely assume that I am capable of doing both, (and consistently honest about it), making my future uncertain at worst and that's not even factoring in the power of choice.

By the time my INTJ has spent sufficient time with me, say 2-3 years of consistent behavior which he approves of, then I suppose he can trust me then. Meanwhile, I have dedicated 2-3 years of my life to a person who doesn't really love me. Is that fair to me? Is it unfair that I ask him to rethink his strategy and thoroughly examine my motives and personality or..God forbid..have some faith in me?

It has been a year and I am making some sort of progress in getting him to 'think' a little more and judge less. I need useful tools, not more close-ended logic which abruptly cuts me off. I don't mind bending over backwards to prove my love through action but in return, I want to be known and appreciated as a whole person. Nothing scars me like "You are every bad thing you've ever done in your life." Not fair and not true.

 

[Zeitgeist]

I accept your challenge as I am quite good at putting myself in other's shoes or I would not have gotten this far:

From my INTJ's point of view
"I tend to take people at face value, implicitly trusting what they tell me to be true as I don't have it in me to be disenguous about who I am.

I trusted my exes and I trusted their words but their actions said to me otherwise, displaying laziness, dishonesty, and a lack of respect for me. I don't care to elaborate too much on these things because I don't want to sound like a victim (I hate the idea, in fact) but sufficed to say, they were not who they presented themselves to be. When I get into a relationship, I give it all my all and I dedicate everything I've got towards it, so this was always a big dissapointment to me. Every person you give yourself to takes a little bit of you away with them.

I know this girl, an INFP, who is decidedly a good person. I like her; she is intelligent, funny, insightful, and a geek. In many ways, she's actually quite perfect for me. What she is not, (a real Christian) is what makes ambivalent about being with her. She also has a dubious past involving having had a lot of sexual partners (by comparison, I've only had 2), excessive drinking and partying at times, and just all around bad decision making. Granted, she has made some significant changes recently but whether or not those will stick remains to be seen."

I must stipulate, there is so much more to me and this story than my INTJ would tell you but this proves that I have and do put myself in his shoes.

 

[kikidmonkey]

it's not about focusing on the bad and ignoring the good, it's that your bad thing is probably of great importance to your friend and he feels it would be foolish to ignore it.

if say your doctor could shorten your cold by weeks, but there is a 1 in 10,000 chance that his treatment would kill you, wouldn't it be better to just suck it up and endure your cold? Yes it's an extreme example. But let's go for a more realistic one:

Let's just say that the bad thing you (generic you, not you specifically) did was cheat on an old boyfriend. For me, that would be a HUGE thing to deal with. Sure you might say that you love me and would never do it, but why should I not believe that you said those words to your old boyfriend? The betrayal and dishonesty that could come from that greatly outweighs the possible happiness that I might experience during the relationship.

but then, I'm the kind of person that believes "it is better to have never loved at all then to have loved and lost."

 

[Humoriarty]

We all have a past.

This is about trust, some people never learn to trust.

Does he actually love you?

Why aren't you asking him this stuff? Communication is key, communication is all.

If that doesn't work YOU need to reasses, and HE needs to reasses.

Is your life better off without him? Is his life better off without you?

... Don't cling to each other for the sake of it.

 

[Zeitgeist]

I want to address this very serious issue with INTJs. I have a very important INTJ in my life, someone I love very much and would sacrifice anything for. The problem is that he seems to experience an extreme Ni takeover, to the point where he cuts himself off from new important information. This includes new information about me, which causes him to judge me harshly and push me away. He also makes sweeping generalizations about me without taking into consideration idiosyncracies, circumstance, mental state, external influence, and other factors. He cannot look past things I've done before being with him. This is destructive to our relationship as he keeps me at a distance and keeps revisiting his same concerns over and over again.

I've told my INTJ everything about me, shared with him volumes of information and all of my thoughts. I've invited him to look closely at me and analyze me. I do this to avoid him making snap, intuitive judgments about me but he still sometimes goes back to his concerns as though we hadn't already addressed them 1,000 times before. It's tempting for me to get upset but I believe the reason he does this is because his intuition will not let go of its initial assesment, no matter what else he learns about me.

I'm looking for a few INTJs who are honest with themselves and can admit to having this problem with their psyche. How do you experience it? Do you have any methods, tools, or thought processes which help you counteract this tendency? I welcome anecdotal stories about how you came to the conclusion that you had this problem and what you did about it. Anything is helpful.

I really hate to do this and be so fatalistic, but you asked for honesty from those who see themselves exhibiting this kind of self-destructive behavioral pattern, and, well, I must admit that I tend to make some sweeping generalizations and act on false assumptions sometimes that are based on a bad first impression of someone. But I don't have any good news for you. The reality is, I myself am very much helpless to this kind of habitual way of interacting with my environment, and if Jung is to be believed, then it is a byproduct of my cognitive biases - and this is really what you are coming up against, it seems.

Against such a biological and psychological barrier, I can't recommend much. How exactly are you going to get around this? It is like asking them to be a different person. I don't believe that is really a viable solution, because it would be necessarily self-negating for him, and I wouldn't even recommend that kind of behavior to him either, since it would not be in either of your mutual interests.

My only advice, then, as weak as it is in the end, is simply to try and ride it out and hope that things 'surface' eventually, and maybe this is one of those 'everything is the darkest just before dawn' kind of things. Just don't wait forever. Eventually you might have to recognize that he is not the right person for you, or you are not the right person for him, and at that point, there's nothing left but to just let go.

I'd hate to let him go for a lot of reasons. First of all, the two things which an INTJ offers, Honesty and loyalty, are the fundamental modus operandi of the INFP personality. I operate "authentically" without even playing the most basic dating games with people because I value directness and sincerity. We also jive on a Ni level, looking at the future together in great detail. We're also both idealists/perfectionists to this end. I want nothing less than true commitment and spiritual/intellectual solidarity. The depth of my sincerity can only be shared by this INTJ of mine. If I were a shallow, fun-loving ESFP, I might say otherwise.

I also would not bother if I did not believe so whole heartedly that I would be good for him. (sorry for the Fi overdose) but if I thought this would all end in unhappiness and wasted time, I would just let go. I would say "You're right, we're just not compatible because I did X when I was 26." but that just seems beyond ridiculous to me.

 

[Blocklos]

"I tend to take people at face value, implicitly trusting what they tell me to be true as I don't have it in me to be disenguous about who I am."

This part doesn't jive logically with everything else you have said about the problems you are having. If he is taking it at face value, then he will believe you are really reformed. He isn't taking it at face value.

What is he seeing that isn't allowing him to believe you have changed? Unless that can be discovered, you stand no chance of changing his mind independent of it.

 

[Enfpleasantly]

I accept your challenge as I am quite good at putting myself in other's shoes or I would not have gotten this far:

From my INTJ's point of view
"I tend to take people at face value, implicitly trusting what they tell me to be true as I don't have it in me to be disenguous about who I am.

I trusted my exes and I trusted their words but their actions said to me otherwise, displaying laziness, dishonesty, and a lack of respect for me. I don't care to elaborate too much on these things because I don't want to sound like a victim (I hate the idea, in fact) but sufficed to say, they were not who they presented themselves to be. When I get into a relationship, I give it all my all and I dedicate everything I've got towards it, so this was always a big dissapointment to me. Every person you give yourself to takes a little bit of you away with them.

I know this girl, an INFP, who is decidedly a good person. I like her; she is intelligent, funny, insightful, and a geek. In many ways, she's actually quite perfect for me. What she is not, (a real Christian) is what makes ambivalent about being with her. She also has a dubious past involving having had a lot of sexual partners (by comparison, I've only had 2), excessive drinking and partying at times, and just all around bad decision making. Granted, she has made some significant changes recently but whether or not those will stick remains to be seen."

I must stipulate, there is so much more to me and this story than my INTJ would tell you but this proves that I have and do put myself in his shoes.

I have to say, I'm not an INTJ, but this certainly seems like an NT wrote it...and I like that you were able to set bias aside and truthfully state what he rejects about you. If it were up to me, I'd say you completed the task successfully

 

[Zeitgeist]

"I tend to take people at face value, implicitly trusting what they tell me to be true as I don't have it in me to be disenguous about who I am."

This part doesn't jive logically with everything else you have said about the problems you are having. If he is taking it at face value, then he will believe you are really reformed. He isn't taking it at face value.

What is he seeing that isn't allowing him to believe you have changed? Unless that can be discovered, you stand no chance of changing his mind independent of it.

Yeah, that part was not conjecture but actual words straight out of the horse's mouth. I'm guessing he means that by default, he tends to take things at face value without hidden meaning but has TRAINED himself to look at actions as a more accurate indicator.

As to what he sees that gives him that indication, I can only guess. Long distance, he has seen that my friends posted facebook pictures of me with my group at a bar. My friends are mainly gamers and go out probably out once or twice a year on someone's birthday (in this case, my gf A's birthday) and we stick together in a cliquey sort of way without paying any attention to people around us. It's so rare though that's it actual laughable to me that me or my geeky friends are the partying types. Nevertheless though, these pics indicated to him that there is a problem with me. That was September. Otherwise, my drinking habits are basically a glass of wine with dinner every now and then. I'm not terribly social either. I tend to default to alone time or just gaming with a select few friends to fulfill my social needs.

I admit, in the past I've been terrible at picking boyfriends I could trust. I've been a dysfunctional INFP in the sense that I have historically looked for love in all the wrong places. I have used sex as a means to establish closeness in relationships doomed for failure. Given the number of bad relationships I've had, my number of sexual partners makes me look rather promiscuous for an INFP (our numbers typically range from 2-4). This is the past, however, and my intention is to sleep with my INTJ for the first time..on our wedding night. I've resigned myself into a permanent state of celibacy until then, not just for my INTJ, but also as a spiritual quest.

So those are the bad things he has seen or I have told him about. He sees the inconsistency between those actions and what I say, which is that I am a morally idealistic INFP. In no way am I exaggerating or being dishonest about this. In fact, things like meaningful intimacy, committed relationships, and Saturday nights spent curled up on the couch with my loved one are far more "natural" to me than engaging in any sort of extraverted sensory activities like drinking and partying. There are a whole lot of contributing factors and external influences required for me to act against my nature in such a way. Hope I'm making any sense there.

 

[Enfpleasantly]

"I tend to take people at face value, implicitly trusting what they tell me to be true as I don't have it in me to be disenguous about who I am."

This part doesn't jive logically with everything else you have said about the problems you are having. If he is taking it at face value, then he will believe you are really reformed. He isn't taking it at face value.

What is he seeing that isn't allowing him to believe you have changed? Unless that can be discovered, you stand no chance of changing his mind independent of it.

I was thinking the exact same thing!

OP, do you think you do anything that might give him the impression you haven't completely changed?

Edit: Ahh we posted at the exact same time

 

[SPtheGhost]

I want to address this very serious issue with INTJs. I have a very important INTJ in my life, someone I love very much and would sacrifice anything for. The problem is that he seems to experience an extreme Ni takeover, to the point where he cuts himself off from new important information. This includes new information about me, which causes him to judge me harshly and push me away. He also makes sweeping generalizations about me without taking into consideration idiosyncracies, circumstance, mental state, external influence, and other factors. He cannot look past things I've done before being with him. This is destructive to our relationship as he keeps me at a distance and keeps revisiting his same concerns over and over again.

I've told my INTJ everything about me, shared with him volumes of information and all of my thoughts. I've invited him to look closely at me and analyze me. I do this to avoid him making snap, intuitive judgments about me but he still sometimes goes back to his concerns as though we hadn't already addressed them 1,000 times before. It's tempting for me to get upset but I believe the reason he does this is because his intuition will not let go of its initial assesment, no matter what else he learns about me.

I'm looking for a few INTJs who are honest with themselves and can admit to having this problem with their psyche. How do you experience it? Do you have any methods, tools, or thought processes which help you counteract this tendency? I welcome anecdotal stories about how you came to the conclusion that you had this problem and what you did about it. Anything is helpful.

...thats a tough one

 

[Blocklos]

Yeah, that part was not conjecture but actual words straight out of the horse's mouth. I'm guessing he means that by default, he tends to take things at face value without hidden meaning but has TRAINED himself to look at actions as a more accurate indicator.

As to what he sees that gives him that indication, I can only guess. Long distance, he has seen that my friends posted facebook pictures of me with my group at a bar. My friends are mainly gamers and go out probably out once or twice a year on someone's birthday (in this case, my gf A's birthday) and we stick together in a cliquey sort of way without paying any attention to people around us. It's so rare though that's it actual laughable to me that me or my geeky friends are the partying types. Nevertheless though, these pics indicated to him that there is a problem with me. That was September. Otherwise, my drinking habits are basically a glass of wine with dinner every now and then. I'm not terribly social either. I tend to default to alone time or just gaming with a select few friends to fulfill my social needs.

I admit, in the past I've been terrible at picking boyfriends I could trust. I've been a dysfunctional INFP in the sense that I have historically looked for love in all the wrong places. I have used sex as a means to establish closeness in relationships doomed for failure. Given the number of bad relationships I've had, my number of sexual partners makes me look rather promiscuous for an INFP (our numbers typically range from 2-4). This is the past, however, and my intention is to sleep with my INTJ for the first time..on our wedding night. I've resigned myself into a permanent state of celibacy until then, not just for my INTJ, but also as a spiritual quest.

So those are the bad things he has seen or I have told him about. He sees the inconsistency between those actions and what I say, which is that I am a morally idealistic INFP. In no way am I exaggerating or being dishonest about this. In fact, things like meaningful intimacy, committed relationships, and Saturday nights spent curled up on the couch with my loved one are far more "natural" to me than engaging in any sort of extraverted sensory activities like drinking and partying. There are a whole lot of contributing factors and external influences required for me to act against my nature in such a way. Hope I'm making any sense there.

I am not suggesting that you are leaving something out. I just wanted to make sure you were giving the idea that you may have missed something due diligence.

A few things strike me as relevant:

1) He is a devout Christian, to the point that it is an issue in your relationship, and he himself has had multiple sexual partners in his life?! Yet he gives you crap for it? Hypocrisy. It smelleth poor to mineself.

2) He is still stuck on your original problem, the religious incompatibility, and is making for himself more palatable means (psychologically) of saying it won't work. He is finding significant excuses.

 

[Enfpleasantly]

@rshortman does he make you feel like you're not good enough? Does he make you feel flawed?

 

[Zeitgeist]

@rshortman does he make you feel like you're not good enough? Does he make you feel flawed?

I would very much hate to say that he is does. That doesn't seem fair to me but I do feel like I have to explain myself a lot, and it does grind on me to have my authenticity questioned in such a manner, so often.

 

[Zeitgeist]

I accept your challenge as I am quite good at putting myself in other's shoes or I would not have gotten this far:

From my INTJ's point of view
"I tend to take people at face value, implicitly trusting what they tell me to be true as I don't have it in me to be disenguous about who I am.

I trusted my exes and I trusted their words but their actions said to me otherwise, displaying laziness, dishonesty, and a lack of respect for me. I don't care to elaborate too much on these things because I don't want to sound like a victim (I hate the idea, in fact) but sufficed to say, they were not who they presented themselves to be. When I get into a relationship, I give it all my all and I dedicate everything I've got towards it, so this was always a big dissapointment to me. Every person you give yourself to takes a little bit of you away with them.

I know this girl, an INFP, who is decidedly a good person. I like her; she is intelligent, funny, insightful, and a geek. In many ways, she's actually quite perfect for me. What she is not, (a real Christian) is what makes ambivalent about being with her. She also has a dubious past involving having had a lot of sexual partners (by comparison, I've only had 2), excessive drinking and partying at times, and just all around bad decision making. Granted, she has made some significant changes recently but whether or not those will stick remains to be seen."

I must stipulate, there is so much more to me and this story than my INTJ would tell you but this proves that I have and do put myself in his shoes.

I have to say, I'm not an INTJ, but this certainly seems like an NT wrote it...and I like that you were able to set bias aside and truthfully state what he rejects about you. If it were up to me, I'd say you completed the task successfully

Thank you!

 

[Enfpleasantly]

Well then I think it would be wise to seriously think about whether you should marry him or not. Can you imagine how much stronger these feelings will be 10 years from now if he still has issues with your past? Can you imagine the resentment you might have? The toll it will take on your self-esteem?

Here are some chacteristics of a dysfunctional relationship:

1.***** A sense that you have to fit into someone else's perception of what is right or wrong in order to be loved.
2.***** You feel confined.
3.***** There is always something to fix in the relationship.
4.***** You feel like you're settling.
5.***** Who you are is diminished in the relationship.
6.***** Your needs are not met in one way or another.
7.***** You're never going to be good enough.
8.***** You feel trapped.
9.***** Being there is not what you really want, but you're afraid to leave.
10.* You find other ways to satisfy yourself to keep your mind off how unhappy you are in the situation.
11.* When it's good, it's really good, but when it's bad it's horrible.


Here are some characteristics of a healthy relationship:

1.***** You feel honored.
2.***** You feel more alive.
3.***** There is nurturing and support for you to become more of who you are.
4.***** There is strength coming from your partner allowing you to explore ways to expand into new territories.
5.***** There is trust.
6.***** The goals are the same, even though the ways of expressing them may be different.
7.***** Each brings healing into the other through depth and security.
8.***** The relationship causes you to create a new dynamic based on the future rather than on what has been known in the past.
9.***** There seems to be a knowing about the other person that goes beyond this time and space, as if you had known each other before.
10.* Your partner is more than you would have known to ask for.
11.* You wonder how you ever got this lucky.

Edited to add: These characteristics are subjective, of course.

Edit again : All relationships take work, but when more work is required than not, it's not a good sign.