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Plague Doctor
INTJ, 5w4, Ni-T type
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Discussion Starter #1
I am interested in having a discussion about psychological issues (social anxiety, personality disorder, Autism Spectrum Disorder, Depression, social isolation, bullying, abuse/assault etc...) and their impact on those of us who are INTJs. Some things to think about that I'm interested in discussing:

What are your attitudes/beliefs about psychological challenges?
How have you handled psychological challenges?
What would be your advice to an INTJ who is experiencing a psychological challenge?
Personal stories/anecdotes about psychological challenges from an INTJ point of view.

I purposefully said "psychological issues" instead of "Mental Illness" because I wanted to make certain that this included every INTJ on the forum rather than just those of us who have been diagnosed with a mental illness.

I have a lot of say on this, but currently am getting a bit tired, but I look forward to other people's answers and I'll make a response about myself sometime within the next 24 hours.
 

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There is a big difference between having some issues and a mental illness. If you have a mental illness/disorder, then your MBTI type is somewhat compromised. Meaning that your type isn't very discriptive of your personality.

If you just have issues, like being depressed or at the same level, then how you deal with that issue should be a consideration. But I know that psychologist tend to not believe much in the MBTI when it comes down to treating mental issues. But I'm not an expert so perhaps they are right.

I also believe that mental issues like depression can be fixed through helping someone learn how to eat right. Certain vitamin or mineral deficiencies can be the cause of many mental issues. Sometimes a mental issue can cause a vitamin or mineral deficiency and you get stuck in a vicious circle where a relatively normal problem caused a deficiency which causes you to not be able to get out of it.

So if you just feel like you have a mental issue,... first thing to try: Eat right! And ofcourse, some help from a psychology professional usually doesn't hurt. But make sure you eat right as well!
 

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I have a family history of several diagnoses. So far moderate clinical depression is the only one I have had myself, though I have had it for most of my adult life. You get used to it, comes with the territory and you learn to put together routines that help you get through the day - diet, exercise, rest, meditation, achievable goals.

When it isn't a clinical diagnosis, strong routines ought to be sufficient to get you back on your feet, including targeting the source (stress etc.). When it is debilitating enough to be diagnosed, other measures may be necessary, including medication. In a rare few extremely dysfunctional cases, there may not be much we can do - some brains just don't function no matter what. Had a cousin like that with schizophrenia - ended up taking his life. Although it was hard on his parents, there was relief, too, as he was never able to lead anything like a normal life, and ended up hurting lots of people in the process.
 

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social anxiety
It sucks.

personality disorder
Can be fun. In my case, I exhibit manic-depression combined with a Cassandra Complex.

Autism Spectrum Disorder
Autistic people find me annoyingly "random."

Depression
It sucks too.

social isolation
Can be beneficial in moderation, as with social interaction. Try to rotate one's crops, so to speak.

bullying, abuse/assault
Legalize vigilantism (basically what I mean is decriminalize self-defense).

What are your attitudes/beliefs about psychological challenges?
It's an on-going quest that never ends.

How have you handled psychological challenges?
In the past, martial arts became my outlet. Prior to that, I had zero self-confidence. Taekwondo, and the guidance of my wise sensei, trained me to harness mental focus and taught me to confide in my abilities without becoming prideful. Unfortunately, I've been out of practice for a couple decades.

What would be your advice to an INTJ who is experiencing a psychological challenge?
Don't lose heart. You're not alone.

Personal stories/anecdotes about psychological challenges from an INTJ point of view.
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What are your attitudes/beliefs about psychological challenges?
I've dealt with hard stage fright since a bad experience in attempting to be a leader in a club since then I do a lot of things before presenting on a project e.g relaxing my body, letting sufficient air go through me, paying attention to my body language.
But it's not like it'll go away even if I do that, I'll still get anxious when it's almost my turn. For example in The War of Art, the author said
The warrior and the artist lived by the same code necessity which dictates that the battle must be fought anew everyday
Stuff like this never goes away, it's only coping that we can accomplish against our mental ills.
 
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Heretic
ESI 5w4 9w8 2w1
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Don't believe in the labels, especially when they are about you.
Labels when they turn to icons are more about social power games and privilege,
than actual help to the afflicted with their issue.

Unless you have a verified biologic diagnosis, just work on the issue as best you can.
Look for pragmatic solutions rather than mope around waiting for some professional
who more often than not have a vested interest in keeping you in your condition.
 

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Here people don't really understand and don't really care what mental problems are (I recently suggested a colleague might have anxiety because she'd previously mentioned several occasions where she'd shown symptoms like heart palpitations and severe stress, and she looked at me like I had more than one screw loose). So regarding my own issues, I can only conclude by now I know well what I have to do: don't let people know, letting people know always makes things worse for me.

This works far better than it sounds because while trying to 'overcome the storm' I don't lose complete sight of what I will have to do by the end of it, which has to be good. Even though I sometimes spend weeks like a pariah, confined to my home, I have hope I am getting better, gradually. I have also managed being only self-diagnosed (GAD and/or social anxiety are most prominent) for years, so for now this is the only story I can tell.
 

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Plague Doctor
INTJ, 5w4, Ni-T type
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Discussion Starter #8
I am diagnosed with MDD with psychosis, so I have to take medication or else I'm a danger to myself or others. I have been treated for the past 12 + years with very little symptoms, so it's in remission.

I found that when I started to experience my symptoms, it was extremely disorienting to not be in control of my mind. I struggled quite a bit with accepting treatment, assuming that if I just execute some sort of plan (exercise, diet, get enough sunlight, etc...) that I could handle it myself. This was the sort of illness that I simply couldn't handle by myself. It become pretty apparent that I couldn't after about 2 years of going through it. That's 2 years I wish I could get back. I remember reading a statistic somewhere that INTJs are the most likely to seek help for a mental illness. Once I realized I needed it, I sought help aggressively and found what I needed to to get back to "normal," which for me was medication + therapy.

Now, I go to therapy about once every 6-8 weeks and take medication. I think that some other things mentioned here are important to note:

- If one has a mental illness that is untreated or unmanaged, one's MBTI is pretty much impossible to discern.
- It is important not to become attached to labels; a person is not their disorder.
- Routines and structure (something that shouldn't be too hard for INTJs to find) are incredibly helpful when it comes to recovery or just getting anchored in when a person is suffering. A good illustration of this from my life was directly after my father died.
- - - - - - - - - -

I think the weaknesses INTJs have when it comes to psychological issues

- Potential disadvantages in our support system compared to our peers
- Our independence can work against us and we may overestimate our ability to overcome a biologically unconquerable state without medical intervention.


- - - - - - - - - -

Some people with pathology/psychological issues can become attached to that state and sort of sit there and brood/wallow in it for years. I'm not that sort of person. Even though I have a severe mental disorder, I've always been the sort of person who wanted to overcome it.

I know the stigmas that are associated with people who have mental illness. I wonder, to the members here reading, am I suddenly less of a person? Am I considered an unreliable source now? Am I considered weak because I have taken what may seem like the "easy" way out by succumbing to medication? What I have to say to people like that is: I don't care what you think of me. My struggle is real, my medication is needed. And, to be the stable person I need to be for my family, for my SO, to be a responsible parent, and to achieve success in my life, I'll do whatever it takes.

Anyway, that's a few of my answers to the questions. : )
 

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I wonder, to the members here reading, am I suddenly less of a person?
Absolutely not. My impression/opinion of you is based on all of your posts I've seen. This particular post shows me your courage and willingness to be open/honest. It makes me admire you more.

Am I considered an unreliable source now?
No, this changes nothing in that regard.

Am I considered weak because I have taken what may seem like the "easy" way out by succumbing to medication?
I don't view people who need medication that way. It's people to don't address/fix their problems, whatever nature those problems may be, that I might consider 'weak'.


I went through a depressed stage when I was 14. I had things to be depressed about but it was beyond that, I felt uncharacteristically down/loss of hope etc for months straight. I hid it from people (my home life was such that showing 'weakness' would invite more trouble). I remained functional outwardly but I would lay awake feeling the full effect of it at night. In hindsight, I think a shift in teenage hormones may have been at least partially responsible bc it cleared up as suddenly as it came on (seemingly for no reason) and I've never experienced it again (it's been three years). I agree that a problem INTJs can face with this sort of thing is a lack of support/reaching out bc we can be so independent in nature.

On the other hand, we like to fix problems. I always knew there was something wrong with my father. When I was old enough I looked into it and came to suspect he's a 'malignant narcissist' (has NPD & ASPD or close to/something between them). After doing my homework on what that is/how to protect myself I looked into what happens to children of narcissists. My interest in psychology never stopped from there, although the focus shifted towards positive/general psychology (in part to check myself from every possible angle for issues from having one parent with a personality disorder). If I ever did find I have a problem, I wouldn't hesitate to get professional help. I think the stigma surrounding mental issues/illness is unfortunate and counterproductive.
 

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Plague Doctor
INTJ, 5w4, Ni-T type
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Discussion Starter #10
I always knew there was something wrong with my father. When I was old enough I looked into it and came to suspect he's a 'malignant narcissist' (has NPD & ASPD or close to/something between them). After doing my homework on what that is/how to protect myself I looked into what happens to children of narcissists. My interest in psychology never stopped from there, although the focus shifted towards positive/general psychology (in part to check myself from every possible angle for issues from having one parent with a personality disorder). If I ever did find I have a problem, I wouldn't hesitate to get professional help. I think the stigma surrounding mental issues/illness is unfortunate and counterproductive.
It seems so strange to me that others out there actually don't seek help. I don't know if it's a result of growing up in a household where a family member has a clinical disorder or if it has to do with the way we think, but I haven't ever known an INTJ to sit and wallow (to be fair, I know very few INTJs off the forum).

My mother has Bipolar Disorder and falls somewhere on the cluster B personality disorders (however, I was removed from her home and put in the care of my father only). So I definitely understand aspects of growing up with an unstable parent. I think the "fear" of becoming my mother has been an incredibly strong motivating factor for me as well. I don't know how I would have turned out had I not had such an incredible father, though.
 
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I am diagnosed with MDD with psychosis, so I have to take medication or else I'm a danger to myself or others. I have been treated for the past 12 + years with very little symptoms, so it's in remission.

[...]

I wonder, to the members here reading, am I suddenly less of a person? Am I considered an unreliable source now? Am I considered weak because I have taken what may seem like the "easy" way out by succumbing to medication? What I have to say to people like that is: I don't care what you think of me. My struggle is real, my medication is needed. And, to be the stable person I need to be for my family, for my SO, to be a responsible parent, and to achieve success in my life, I'll do whatever it takes.
Exactly. You do whatever it takes.

To me, mental issues are no different from physical issues. Some are born with just one arm or lose it later in life, others are born with brains that struggle with certain things, or damage them later in life.

I am without a doubt influenced by growing up in an environment where mental health issues were a normal part of life and something you deal with the way you would with skin cancer. You go see the doc, you do your homework and hopefully things will work out. I have taken meds when I have had to and I have "always" had a therapist.

 

Perhaps slightly off topic, but I have also opted to have a vasectomy as I believe my particular genes need to exit the gene pool. Not saying that should be the case for anyone else, but it's something we generally agree on in my family.
 

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What are your attitudes/beliefs about psychological challenges?
How have you handled psychological challenges?
What would be your advice to an INTJ who is experiencing a psychological challenge?
Don't think psychological challenges can be avoided in this existence, so attitudes and beliefs about them simply don't matter. Can't assume that any advice I give will be useful to others because my conclusions are unique to my brain and circumstances. Being patient (as in don't need to feel better right this second) helps because I don't have instantaneous insight into my own emotions. Anger for example. Unless it's a frank provocation, it will take some time to figure out and properly articulate why I'm angry. And when pressed too soon, it's difficult to communicate.

I also believe that mental issues like depression can be fixed through helping someone learn how to eat right. Certain vitamin or mineral deficiencies can be the cause of many mental issues. Sometimes a mental issue can cause a vitamin or mineral deficiency and you get stuck in a vicious circle where a relatively normal problem caused a deficiency which causes you to not be able to get out of it.
While it's important to correct deficiencies and get enough antioxidants, the person should figure out if they are just 'feeling shitty' or if they have a more serious issue. It's true though, I 'feel shitty' eating unhealthy. I also like to incorporate foods that provide benefits that are stimulating (but perhaps bitter or pain inflicting at first), like 100% cacao (with no sugar) and foods containing hot peppers (jalepeno, habenero, ghost no cheating by cutting out the veins and seeds). The peppers about 5 times a week. A small amount of the cacao everyday with the vitamins of course.

Don't believe in the labels, especially when they are about you.
Labels when they turn to icons are more about social power games and privilege,
than actual help to the afflicted with their issue.

Unless you have a verified biologic diagnosis, just work on the issue as best you can.
Look for pragmatic solutions rather than mope around waiting for some professional
who more often than not have a vested interest in keeping you in your condition.
Agree, except in the case you know for sure either you or a loved one is in real trouble and this is the first time. But yes, would bet most people who go to their physician and talk about a rough day will walk out with 'something'. Doctors are dx happy and like to profile people. Surprised overweight women aren't immediately given prophylactic anti-depressants yet.

On the other hand, we like to fix problems. I always knew there was something wrong with my father.
Those are the hardest psychologogical challenges, the ones that can't be fixed. Don't like ruminating or discussing those because what is there to do? Already know what the problem is, so it feels like complaining at that point.
 

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What are your attitudes/beliefs about psychological challenges?

Psychological challenges are a legitimate phenomenon that the individual can possibly solve on their own, or with the help of other people, therapy, and medication; ideally, all of them in conjunction with each other.

What would be your advice to an INTJ who is experiencing a psychological challenge?

You may think that once you have isolated your problem, that you can solve it on your own.
But know this, you will always have a blind spot, and that blind spot can usually be illuminated by other peoples' perspective.
You would be wise to not completely discard other peoples' perspective, as they usually have some inkling of validity to them.

Personal stories/anecdotes about psychological challenges from an INTJ point of view.

I was with an ESFJ for 1 year, then married for 2.5 years. In the partnership I was in a position of powerlessness where he had absolute control of all finances. In the relationship he was the one who was 'in love', while I was simply the clueless object of affection. Lived in his home country with a difficult language to learn. He refused to let me learn the language by taking a class so I can communicate with him better, while at the same time demanding that I learn the language on my own without leaving the apartment. That's just one of the 'issues' I dealt with. There's actually a laundry list of them that I'm not going to bother to share.

Some things I wound up doing were, hitting myself repeatedly on the head with my fist while 'arguing' with him and yelling at full force with my voice, going into a fetal position on the bed and yelling at the mattress at full force while the comforter was covering me entirely, locking myself in the bathroom and yelling at the top of my voice.

Precious "INTJ" that I am, I kept telling myself that I was responsible for this, I don't need anyone's help, and that I can do things to solve this laundry list of 'issues' I was having with my partner. That's why I stayed with him for 3.5 years. It took a psychiatrist, a lawyer, and an admission to a Sanatorium to convince me that I was the victim (YUCK!) of a psychologically and physically abusive relationship. At the Sanatorium I had to basically spill everything about my personal relationship to a complete stranger (the horror). I was also given medication that forced me to go to sleep and stay asleep for a complete 8 or so hours, because without it I would wake up after 3 hours of sleep and the 'problems' would come pouring back into my head like a maelstrom consuming ships in its mouth, and be unable to sleep again for the whole day. No amount of 'mental fortitude' or dieting could do what that medication did.

It was only when I was separated from him that I learned he was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, and that he's had it for decades. He never disclosed that to me, and I was not entitled to it because of Doctor-Patient Confidentiality. In retrospect, I could argue that I was quite fine until my husband broke me, or that I was broken before until my husband fixed me by helping me become more self-aware of my own behavior and how I affect the people around me. He and his psychiatrist suggested that I might be on the spectrum for autism, because I have a hard time maintaining eye-contact with people when interacting with them and other micro-behaviors I forget. I never bothered to get officially diagnosed out of fear that I might use it as a social crutch to justify not making an effort to play by the rules of neurotypical social interactions. If I'm not seeing any opportunities for self-improvement, then I'm doing something wrong.

Now that I'm in a different country and have been separated from him for 2.5 years, I've had a lot of time to introspect in the safety and clarity of the outside world. I'm now living by myself in a new city, with a somewhat stable and tolerable job, and am slowly rebuilding 'myself'. With the emotional support of my friends and family I'm feeling quite good and am slowly developing my self-confidence in a genuine, more emotionally aware way.

I'm even surprised that I have developed an embarrassing schoolboy infatuation with someone.
 

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While these issues haven't disabled me to the point of rendering me a humanoid wreck, I do get quite anxious and overly concerned about many things in life. To be quite honest, I'm quite neurotic when it comes to my security and future, which is probably due to thinking too much about such things.
 
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What are your attitudes
Not much.

beliefs about psychological challenges?
They should be (de-stigmatized) in certain localities, for more productive discussion / proper treatment.

How have you handled psychological challenges?
I reckon my problem is genetic. It has been present since birth. (re: Dieting / medicines / exercise / distractions) - nothing has cured it. Thus, I no longer seek "cures" - nor professional treatment.

So long as I can make money / maintain-productive functionality, I do not care about my mental-illnesses. It will be present until death. I do not harbor optimism in any form. (Coping) methods suffice.



What would be your advice to an INTJ who is experiencing a psychological challenge?
Face it/learn to deal with it. There is no other way.


I know the stigmas that are associated with people who have mental illness.
Ignore it.


I wonder, to the members here reading, am I suddenly less of a person?
Ignore it.

Am I considered an unreliable source now?
No.

Am I considered weak because I have taken what may seem like the "easy" way out by succumbing to medication?
No.
 

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I knew someone whom had a genetic disorder that affected their serotonin levels, and they needed medication or they could not function at all. I mean, that is an extreme example, but behavior is biological, and sometimes we can't fix it without addressing the biology.

However, my personal experience was very negative. I felt abused by the mental health system I was thrust into as a child (being from a poor family might be 90% the reason why). I'm fairly certain I had some kind of panic disorder starting from as early as I can remember (only as an adult did I learn what a panic attack was). That was never diagnosed, but I was diagnosed with OCD when I was nine and depression when I was twelve.

I am in the camp where I learned to hide my problems because exposing them made things worse. Less opportunity, less friends, less respect, more doctors, more meds, more humiliation.

It is fundamentally wrong to tell a child that their "brain is broken" when you don't actually have any medical examination done on the child to prove that, or at least better language in which to communicate a theory of chemical imbalance that is still highly misunderstood, along with the child. It was supposed to remove the stigma, to put it in the realm of a medical problem that could be treated with drugs like it is an infection, and to allow for greater acceptance of such treatment. Instead it lead me to believe I was less of a person, especially when the drugs kept failing to "fix" me. I was a guinea pig with a new cocktail every couple months - scared to say anything, do anything, nauseated, twitching, sleepless, a mess - but they didn't want to stop giving me more.

It took me a decade to get over the rage of feeling violated by psychiatrists. I just cannot fathom how, when I was 12 years old and living in a homeless shelter, that I was given antidepressants by state welfare because "that is what I needed". What I needed was a fucking home. A home without a man who is on parole for armed robbery and punches holes through walls. How could those assholes be so blind as to not address the horrible experiences I was having as maybe being a factor in developing OCD and depression? Not once, in more than a dozen counselors, did I hear that a toxic environment - homelessness, domestic violence, changing schools five times in a year - might be influencing my inability to cope with stress. I thought all this shit was normal, and I was a massive failure.

I didn't start "getting better" until I realized that nothing made sense in my world. It took a drastic experience for me to finally see it. I discovered I can't reason my way though everything, and that trying to understand won't change anything. Some things just are, and I am utterly defenseless in the face of it. It is sort of true that a mind can "shatter" because that is definitely what it physically felt like.

I know it's pretty cheesy to quote this, but that line in the recent Batman v. Superman movie where Batman says, "life only make sense if you force it to" was pretty much the short story of the destruction and resurrection of my personality (oh Batman ... writers, you speak for the souls of so many).

It seems paradoxical, but feeling completely powerless is what gave me the freedom to let go of the things that scared me because they seemed inconsequential by comparison. From there, I gained the perspective I needed to become "whole" and operate within society. I'm not really sure how, but after that, symptoms of mental illness - panic attacks, compulsions, depression - were gone. It was like a phantom limb for a number of years that eventually also withered away.

Anyway, I feel pretty strongly about this, haha. Probably too strongly to give good advice. Fi-fest up in here.

brightflashes, you are still my hero. :laughing: (also Batman)
 

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I believe that INTJs are more prone to becoming mentally unhealthy because they live inside their heads.

Is Autism considered a mental illness? :rip:
 

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What are your attitudes/beliefs about psychological challenges?
How have you handled psychological challenges?
What would be your advice to an INTJ who is experiencing a psychological challenge?
Personal stories/anecdotes about psychological challenges from an INTJ point of view.

A lot of good, but also great advices. Nutrion stuff and also the social spectrum.

Some ideas. Not agreeing intj's have more issues, but definetely agreeing intj's are somewhat more aware of them than many other types. Of course, not all intj are focused on same themes/sectors of life but the validy of introspective touch is still there to grasp several anomalies. That being said there are several perspectives regarding to equilibrium/meaning of all systems.. but to the main off stream hardcore research its all clear as the starry starry night melody's delicacy from the unmanly voice of a specific singer whispering that piece of intj art on youtube that all roads lead to ROMA or AMOR

Now to the point. brightflashes, dare and acataleptic. All of you guys have consciously connected to some nasty but no at all uncommon phenomenas. And many other intjs around this forum from what I've seen while being banned and just being able to read, too. This stuff make me between sad and wheepy = not cool. So, judging by the amount of problems around kinda decided to participate, even though Im not the nicest guy around to support/love/care. So, my intention is to share a perspective that I've seen working and delivering serious development. Almost miraculous. The stuff that I sell in my notebook is free.

Taking this all from the other side. I've never practised clinical psychology but was trained at uni to become one (as support programming to my current/past professional occupations). My main 2 goals at that specific school was to better know humans and to see what is the basic operational function to all human sufference/happiness. Now leaving the intro aside and going really deep and intense in a very short period of time the end game is precisely like this:

Solution to literally all dilemmas is basically caring/loving/high levels of counsciousness (and adding for the physical high concentrations of oxygen). As humans are mainly water, so logically the levels of the harmonics of the vibration, frequency and energy are the key to well being. Will you take in consideration that the snowflakes are influenced greatly by the sound? The great part of it all is its free. We, the ppl, just lack intentional assistance or agenda in being guided in the right direction.

Feel free to take action in researching these perspectives and even more liberated to experiment what these 2 aspects can achieve in terms of pragmatic results

At the beginning there was sound..
 

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Plague Doctor
INTJ, 5w4, Ni-T type
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Discussion Starter #20
@Liove Wow. Thank you for sharing. It gives me a lot to think about.
 
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