INTJs and Suicide
[INTJ]
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The question as presented, requires us to accept that everything is pointless in order to answer, which it most certainly is not. Unless you let it be, I mean, you can think that but it would be a drab existence.
Also seems like a minus to your own morale level. That would be ineffective.
Also seems like a minus to your own morale level. That would be ineffective.
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I was pretty nihilistic and depressed in my late teens, after I left my parents' house. A lot of my low self-esteem issues were attributed to not meeting my high expectations and not having a clue on how to navigate through the sudden transition into adulthood. I felt that asking for my father's advice would've been pointless because he often came off as a judgmental ISTJ leaning towards the unhealthy side. When I was 18 I had come up with detailed plans on how I was going to kill myself and what contents would be included in my suicide letter. However after some deep reflections, I decided against it because I hadn't gotten much accomplished in life yet.
Not necessarily I put a possible reason between () because I noticed it's something a lot of INTJs I've known shared, but not trying to generalize.
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I never saw the point of suicide, even when I was most miserable about the world and about myself. No matter what situation you're in, non-existence has a lower potential for satisfaction, by default. I take the privilege that I get to exist very seriously.
At my most nihilistic, I can understand the idea that non-existence is no more meaningless than existence, but I'm also aware that feelings like the potential for meaningfulness are affected by my depressive disorder, so I don't allow myself to act on them. And even if A is as bad as B, I don't see the point of making the effort to go from A to B.
Since the thing that upsets me most is that one day I won't be able to exist any more, bringing that on even sooner is just not something I'm inclined to see as a solution to anything.
Edit: I think it's important to add that I see the world's inherent meaninglessness as a kind of Nietzschean opportunity to create my own meaning, and I find that noble and uplifting.
At my most nihilistic, I can understand the idea that non-existence is no more meaningless than existence, but I'm also aware that feelings like the potential for meaningfulness are affected by my depressive disorder, so I don't allow myself to act on them. And even if A is as bad as B, I don't see the point of making the effort to go from A to B.
Since the thing that upsets me most is that one day I won't be able to exist any more, bringing that on even sooner is just not something I'm inclined to see as a solution to anything.
Edit: I think it's important to add that I see the world's inherent meaninglessness as a kind of Nietzschean opportunity to create my own meaning, and I find that noble and uplifting.
There were times I wish I were dead - but then I read up on suicide and saw there was no rational foundation in it.
For one - I understand suicide to be suspension of the ego - rather impulsive; in nature and does not solve the problem of suffering; nor cancel it out. Rather, you are just not experiencing it anymore.
If suffering (e.g .. hardships / emotional crisis', et al) cannot be stopped - where does suicide come in? What is the reason here?
I understand suicide has only 'causes' not reasons; and 'pointlessness' is surely not a reason to impulsively end ones life.
Euthanasia (e.g deliberative self-killing) --> rational <-- is the only option I would ever consider.
I understand my 'emotional' expression has put me in constant state of fluctuating biochemicals / chemical imbalances - but there is nothing I can do about it but cognitive behavioral therapy. Suicide is not an option - suffering is still there, it is just not registered.
Fair enough, I will euthanize myself before suicide - I have wished I were dead; probably because the inside of my head is a constant, enclosed vagueness of complexity surrounded by emotions in which I have no desire to express nor share - because I don't see the point in doing so. But, I am an emotional being.
I am human - but, no one cares about that. No one cares about the INTJ beyond themselves. ''We must come out the box - we must talk more - we must this, must that'' - in order for others to compromise. I get sick of such garbage.
- Don't emphasize enough - Can't understand you - Arrogant - Selfish - Think about my feelings INTJ -blah blah. Put a sock in it, ladies and gentlemen. Grow a backbone.
Why compromise my well-being + needs to make others ''at ease'' around me when they have no desire to do the same? I find these rituals 'pointless' in nature.
For one - I understand suicide to be suspension of the ego - rather impulsive; in nature and does not solve the problem of suffering; nor cancel it out. Rather, you are just not experiencing it anymore.
If suffering (e.g .. hardships / emotional crisis', et al) cannot be stopped - where does suicide come in? What is the reason here?
I understand suicide has only 'causes' not reasons; and 'pointlessness' is surely not a reason to impulsively end ones life.
Euthanasia (e.g deliberative self-killing) --> rational <-- is the only option I would ever consider.
I understand my 'emotional' expression has put me in constant state of fluctuating biochemicals / chemical imbalances - but there is nothing I can do about it but cognitive behavioral therapy. Suicide is not an option - suffering is still there, it is just not registered.
Fair enough, I will euthanize myself before suicide - I have wished I were dead; probably because the inside of my head is a constant, enclosed vagueness of complexity surrounded by emotions in which I have no desire to express nor share - because I don't see the point in doing so. But, I am an emotional being.
I am human - but, no one cares about that. No one cares about the INTJ beyond themselves. ''We must come out the box - we must talk more - we must this, must that'' - in order for others to compromise. I get sick of such garbage.
- Don't emphasize enough - Can't understand you - Arrogant - Selfish - Think about my feelings INTJ -blah blah. Put a sock in it, ladies and gentlemen. Grow a backbone.
Why compromise my well-being + needs to make others ''at ease'' around me when they have no desire to do the same? I find these rituals 'pointless' in nature.
Understood. To answer then since I'm here, there was one time, but it was from an overload of work plus a period of isolation from friends.
I bounced back though. I've never had the issue of thinking anything was pointless, in fact, some of my friends try to remind me that not everything has a point. Thinking at the end point of events has always been a strong suit of mine, I can't imagine one would choose a pointless "end point."
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It's been awhile since I've been suicidal (even my thoughts on that were rare) since I believe such an option creates unnecessary headache and troubles for the people I leave behind. That being said, I'm quite guilty of being chronically bitter - something that's probably not healthy on a physical and mental level...
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Suffering is a sensation. If you no longer experience suffering you have solved the problem of suffering. Pain and suffering are not necessary the same thing. You can experience pain with very little suffering involved, and you can suffer tremendously with very little pain involved. Higher well-being does not cure suffering. Maybe we suffer simply because we are born. Best to have not been born.
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If being suicidal means not wanting to live anymore, or wanting to die, then I have never been suicidal. Even if living a life from beginning to its natural/unplanned end is pointless, even if everything a person could do or not do is pointless, it's better than being dead, I think.
And if everything is pointless, then I could never find a good reason to off myself. Sometimes I do think very dark thoughts. Like I looked at my infant daughter a few days after she was born and realized she's dying already.
I think the point of life is to make yourself as happy as you can, as often as you can, but do no harm.
Also, I'm not a complete atheist. I think there could be something else after we die. I doubt it's hell for killing yourself, but it could be rebirth. Which I guess is lousy for someone who didn't want to live anymore/again. And you could end up being born in a worse position than before, with a new, even shittier life.
And if everything is pointless, then I could never find a good reason to off myself. Sometimes I do think very dark thoughts. Like I looked at my infant daughter a few days after she was born and realized she's dying already.
I think the point of life is to make yourself as happy as you can, as often as you can, but do no harm.
Also, I'm not a complete atheist. I think there could be something else after we die. I doubt it's hell for killing yourself, but it could be rebirth. Which I guess is lousy for someone who didn't want to live anymore/again. And you could end up being born in a worse position than before, with a new, even shittier life.
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This x 10 million
Respectfully, this is not making much sense, eh.
That does not compute. We don't suffer simply because we are born. Perhaps you've mixed up the words: pain and suffering? Everyone who exists experiences pain one way or another throughout time, that cannot be avoided. But it doesn't mean we're always in pain because there are ways to improve this. We can try and do things that will mitigate the pain or avoid the pain.
Suffering, to me, is more of a condition as a result of pain. Suffering can be neutralized through an acceptance of the condition. For example, if someone has a chronic illness, and they're in a lot of pain; they suffer because of their illness. The pain from the chronic illness is unavoidable, BUT they can choose to accept that their illness is a reality and live to the best of their abilities. In doing so, they relieve themselves of the suffering.
For example, if the person chooses to fight the pain rather than accept it by thinking "Oh, why did this happen to me? Woe is me. I'm so sad. I'm suffering so much." - this is causing the suffering to continue. If they choose to accept that this chronic illness is indeed their reality, then they see things for what they are and will find beneficial ways to improve their condition or hopefully at least to mitigate their pain if they can't avoid it.
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Depends entirely on your premise.
No, I do not think so. Suffering is cognition. Pain is (intense) stimulus. That is my definition. Suffering is the awareness of the stimuli. You suffer because you have cognition. Suffering is boredom, ennui, hunger, headache, worry, anxiety, fear et cetera.
Pain ≠ Suffering. We are evolutionary programed to shun that which causes us displeasure. Even this behavior causes us suffering.
I do not think that is true. We simply get used to the pain. We still suffer.
Pain ≠ Suffering.
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Why?
V
No - ''suicide'' (i.e .. not experiencing suffering) does not 'solve' the problem of suffering. You will always have suffered - and ''killing yourself'' entails that you will never have a future without suffering. (e.g .. Non-experience). Thus, what you are saying is incoherent - it does not solve, nor even address the problem of suffering at all.
What does this have to do with anything? :dry:
This is an anti-natalist view. Since you can only suffer while alive - (ex: Suffering people giving birth to more suffering people); it is best to never give birth - but only if it is the correct ethical imperative.
That is exactly what I meant in my previous post: Pain ≠ Suffering. Did you actually read what I wrote? Reread it again if you have to.
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I do not need to reread your post. I merely elaborated my first post. If we meant the same thing, the question that needs to be answered is why did you quote me in the first place.
lol someone's a little salty. If you're going to get over-emotional about something like this, then forget it.
I quoted you because of this passage that didn't make sense for me:
I do not agree with this because I don't even know what it's about. What is your premise on "maybe we suffer simply because we are born"?
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What do you think the problem of suffering is? It is a cognition related property, it has nothing to do with the external world. Yes you will always have suffered, but you will be completely oblivious to that fact and every other sensation you have had. You cannot have a future without suffering, because suffering is cognition. It does address the problem of suffering, because the problem is that it is a cognition related property.
There are no correct ethical imperative. The universe is utterly nihilistic, the universe does not care what we think. If we want to stop suffering we should stop bringing children into this world. There is not a right or wrong choice here. We simply need to make a choice.
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