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Thats my enneagram and MBTI type, i've read that this type is rare- non existent but i don't know i've done like a lot of MBTI test but still register with all of them saying I'm INTP. I'm definitely sure i'm a 4w5 as all of 4 is me and only some is 5. I've been in so much conflict this last few months as i finished high school and i had to choose a career path cause i had no idea what i wanted to do with my life, growing up with strict african parents my choices for "viable" careers were limited and self expression too. I first went into college choosing to do Accounting, only to dropout in semester two because I realised it was nothing interesting or something i had no interest in, i only chose it for the money they make rather than happiness. I'm planning on returning to college to do Multimedia/Creative Digital Media cause there's a big creative aspect to it and i feel like i have some good ideas to bring out in terms of filming etc. I just recently join this to see peoples opinions or advice on how to handle these things or about myself because i've hit a depression run with a lot of anxiety for almost a year now, doctor prescribed me lexapro cause i guess i'm still young only recently turning 19. I've been going Counselling and I've gotten better a lil bit so far.
 

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Hi-a @Fuliginouswolf
You're a 4w5 and concerned about not being common? (I have a 4 wing; I bask in rare categorizations)
Regarding MBTI-- Have you looked into Cognitive Functions? They describe each type much more distinctly.

First line of advice: For future reference, use paragraphs to break up blocks of text. Forums don't follow MLA formatting.

Second of all, exercise has been proven to be just as or more effective than drugs in treating depression.
(I try to spread this information whenever I get the chance)

Third: I have friends majoring in various Media and Art related categories... just know that you're setting yourself up for a lot of work just to get the chance to prove yourself. It's certainly not impossible, but if that's what you want to do you should be dedicated to it. There are a lot of field where you can show creativity and have a guaranteed income.
Creativity can be used in almost any field.
(Though I'm not sure about accounting... lol)
 

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INTP is, by definition and actuality, a person who does not value sentimentality, represses it and works primarily by mechanical analysis of things. A Four is, by definition and in actuality a person who is obsessively, constantly sentimental and about emotional symbolism. These cannot be descriptions of the same person.
 

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INTP is, by definition and actuality, a person who does not value sentimentality, represses it and works primarily by mechanical analysis of things. A Four is, by definition and in actuality a person who is obsessively, constantly sentimental and about emotional symbolism. These cannot be descriptions of the same person.
In what sort of absurdly deterministic dictionary did you find these definitions?

The value of the MBTI and Enneagram lie in their flexibility. If they were as rigid as your definitions assume, they would not be able to accommodate the entire population.
MBTI and Enneagram lie outside of each other's scope. Enneagram is Motivation; MBTI is Cognition. Enneagram is the search; MBTI is the method. Certain Enneagram and MBTI types tend to occur together, but that is correlation, not necessity.

You definitions carry more baggage than is justifiable based on theory.
I speculate that many of the INTP stereotypes are the result of the statistically high number of 5w6s who are also INTP.

That said, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if OP mis-typed. Depression could skew the MBTI tests and/or disintegration could interfere with Enneagram typing.
 

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What is your argument, even? You assert that the systems' strength lies in their flexibility - and they are both highly flexible. Jungian type and the Enneagram of Personality don't lie outside each other's scope, not at all. That is a modern forum-born fiction created by people who want to freely mix and match stuff without a care for it making sense or not. That is not how the systems are, both are broad spectrum categorization systems for people's personality, going into mentalities, motivations, what kinds of things the person is prone to paying attention to, value, devalue, and so on. They have a huge amount of overlap, but divvy up the personality space differently and deal with some things that don't overlap so there isn't a 1-to-1 correspondence. The one common denominator between both is that the types have key characteristics that define them, and purport to be foundational to the person. It is absurd to say the person is fundamentally sentiment-devaluing and predominantly sentiment-valuing at the same time. Simple logic.
 

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Plague Doctor
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INTP is, by definition and actuality, a person who does not value sentimentality, represses it and works primarily by mechanical analysis of things. A Four is, by definition and in actuality a person who is obsessively, constantly sentimental and about emotional symbolism. These cannot be descriptions of the same person.
The idea that an INTP can't be a type 4 is intellectual dishonesty. Please don't let this person sway you. I'm an INFP 5w4 and it makes complete sense if one looks into my life. This guy thinks that I'm not an sp/sx because I'm nice to strangers. Welcome to the Enneagram forum. I hope you find a lot of value here and don't let people try to discourage you from enjoying the forum.

edit to add: I forgot to say in my original post that I think it's great that you're getting something out of counseling and while you're doing self examination there, right now is going to be a great time to expose yourself to some dynamics that are going on inside of you that can be a bit triggering. Counseling helps people look more clearly at themselves, in my experience. But, like someone else said, any sort of dysfunction can sometimes get in the way of typing accurately. Still, you know what is true about you far better than anyone else does.
 

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What is your argument, even? You assert that the systems' strength lies in their flexibility - and they are both highly flexible. Jungian type and the Enneagram of Personality don't lie outside each other's scope, not at all. That is a modern forum-born fiction created by people who want to freely mix and match stuff without a care for it making sense or not. That is not how the systems are, both are broad spectrum categorization systems for people's personality, going into mentalities, motivations, what kinds of things the person is prone to paying attention to, value, devalue, and so on. They have a huge amount of overlap, but divvy up the personality space differently and deal with some things that don't overlap so there isn't a 1-to-1 correspondence. The one common denominator between both is that the types have key characteristics that define them, and purport to be foundational to the person. It is absurd to say the person is fundamentally sentiment-devaluing and predominantly sentiment-valuing at the same time. Simple logic.
Since you seem to be the ultimate arbiter of which MBTI types can and cannot be mapped to which Enneagram types, why don't you just save us the trouble and share the source Venn Diagram where you're pulling this from.
 

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The one common denominator between both is that the types have key characteristics that define them, and purport to be foundational to the person. It is absurd to say the person is fundamentally sentiment-devaluing and predominantly sentiment-valuing at the same time. Simple logic.
I would agree with that. What I disagree with is which key characteristics you have chosen.

There is nothing within the definition of INTP that necessitates sentiment-devaluing. We devalue the use of irrelevant sentiment in decision making, but that does not mean that we decry it in all regards.

Enneagram is influenced to a greater degree by external influence during the critical years. INTPs who grow up around xSxJ types would certainly have a different worldview than INTPs who had xNTP parents, siblings or friends.
 

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There is nothing within the definition of INTP that necessitates sentiment-devaluing. We devalue the use of irrelevant sentiment in decision making, but that does not mean that we decry it in all regards.
So you still disregard it most of the time, while it's by definition a constant themes for Fi and 4s.

Enneagram is influenced to a greater degree by external influence during the critical years. INTPs who grow up around xSxJ types would certainly have a different worldview than INTPs who had xNTP parents, siblings or friends.
So what do we do with the Big 5 research that contradicts this? Because according to that, personallity is largely genetic, and whatever environmental influences we have (which aren't even nearly as relevant) are largely filtered through how we see the world (cognitive functions). A 4's MO will simply not compute to someone with dominant Ti at a young age. They'll deal with what happens in their formative years and develop "motivations" based on how they view the world through that Ti lens. Which, by reading descriptions on Ti and 4, seem to be fairly opposite.
 

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Plague Doctor
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So you still disregard it most of the time, while it's by definition a constant themes for Fi and 4s.
Emotional escalation isn't an Fi thing. Emotional escalation is a type 4 thing. Some Fi users don't experience their feelings from a subjective experience but, instead, experience them from an outside observer, uninterested in becoming entangled with them. There is a disturbing stereotype that goes around the forum that Fi is the same as emotional. Everyone can be emotional, Fi is an introverted function (it naturally is hidden) which is used to make hierarchal evaluations of various modes of decision making. For example, is it better if I take my kids to see a movie on Saturday night or is it better if I take them on Sunday at the matinee? If I answer this based on how it will make me feel (not that it would cost less, or because the kids are in trouble on Saturday, or anything like that), then I'm using Fi.

Further, how could anyone know to what degree any individual's dichotomies are? The INTP OP might be only slightly Ti, or he might be profoundly Ti. Additionally, mixing a trait theory - which is based on certain scientific criteria - with a spiritual theory which did not come from the scientific method is actively using a logical fallacy. These two theories MBTi and Enneagram are not the same - they do not translate to one another by any means.


So what do we do with the Big 5 research that contradicts this? Because according to that, personallity is largely genetic, and whatever environmental influences we have (which aren't even nearly as relevant) are largely filtered through how we see the world (cognitive functions).
The NEO-PI-R is not any more statistically significant than any other personality theory when it comes to genetics. Genetics actually affects much more a person's temperaments rather than their personality. Personality traits are formed by reciprocal determinism, childhood experiences, culture, trauma, through cognition (learning, memory, brain processing) and other events that you cannot glean from one's MBTI.

Further, the BFF is also a trait theory and shouldn't be mixed with Enneagram as Enneagram is not based off the scientific method to any degree.

A 4's MO will simply not compute to someone with dominant Ti at a young age. They'll deal with what happens in their formative years and develop "motivations" based on how they view the world through that Ti lens. Which, by reading descriptions on Ti and 4, seem to be fairly opposite.
Hey guess what - the Enneagram can be determined at a young age. However, the MBTi cannot because of brain wiring from the limbic system to the frontal cortex which continues on through age 25. I have two children. When they were ages 0-5, which is probably the time when one's Enneagram is most actively being formed, their personality type was infant, toddler, etc... An infant does not have enough experiences or well-established habits to have a determinate MBTi type.
 

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@brightflashes

Fair enough, you've given me stuff to consider. :eek: But the one thing I have trouble with from the start is how the Enneagram doesn't fit the scientific method. You aren't wrong, but shouldn't it at least conform to the principals of human cognition and personality that has been more or less formally researched? At least in principal.
 

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Plague Doctor
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@brightflashes

Fair enough, you've given me stuff to consider. :eek: But the one thing I have trouble with from the start is how the Enneagram doesn't fit the scientific method. You aren't wrong, but shouldn't it at least conform to the principals of human cognition and personality that has been more or less formally researched? At least in principal.
When I say that, I mean that the enneagram isn't the result of scientific pursuit. It wasn't tested, researched, etc... before it was a thing. The Big 5, on the other hand, was researched by McCrae & Costa for at least 30 years and created by using the scientific method. Any claim can be tested and put up to scientific scrutiny. The Enneagram doesn't have scientific merit and is impossible to use by scientists (at least at this point) because it hasn't be developed, validated, and refined through science. It falls more under a philosophy. That doesn't mean that it's any less useful for personal use. It only means that it's not scientific.

edit to add: Not impossible, that's an exaggeration, but I mean that, for example, the network that funds my research (forensic psychology, criminal profiling which relies heavily on personality theory) would not publish me or accept any research I did with their grant fund based on Enneatyping criminals.
 
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When you have two withdrawn types that are wings of each other, it's difficult to tell them apart. I think both sides of the 4/5 line can be afraid that they are too different from the rest of society and can't cope with a normal life, but have different reasons and emphases for that outlook.

I think 5w4 makes sense for both INTPs and INFPs because Ti and Fi are both useful to form a unique niche or worldview. What makes INTP and 4w5 difficult to square with each other is the lack of Fi. Let's say you had an INTP that felt lost, broken and discarded, and wanted their life to be unique and meaningful. They get their Ti-Ne spinning creative ideas and concepts in order to form their personal identity. Fe is both extraverted and the weakest function, so it can supply a little quirky self-expression, and become depressed over the INTP's lack of meaningful relationships, but its help is limited. So, this is somebody who forms a personal identity by identifying with creative ideas, not deep feelings and sentiments, and struggles with emotional expression. Doesn't that make them a 5w4 instead of a 4w5? How could you tell the two apart?
 

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I used to think i was this but after Katherine Fauvre typed me as a Sexual 7, that made more sense. E714 INTP.
 

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T I realised it was nothing interesting or something i had no interest in, i only chose it for the money they make rather than happiness. I'm planning on returning to college to do Multimedia/Creative Digital Media cause there's a big creative aspect to it and i feel like i have some good ideas to bring out in terms of filming etc.

There absolutely can be INTP 4's out there. You may very well be one.

If I could point something out, respectfully, the part I quoted sounds like you made smoe pretty important decisions based on how you FEEL about situations.

Respectfully, this is Fi. Perhaps you are an iNFP who is depressed and stressed?

Just something maybe to consider.
 

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Really interesting discussion, learned a lot from it.

I am a 4w5 intp. I like feeling emotion and I like drawing on emotion when creating (writing).

But I don't like making decisions based on emotion. In fact, I hate it, it repulses me. I want to be totally rational, and for my rational mind to be in control when I make decisions.

Thank you for pointing out the difference between MBTI and Enneagram
 

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I don't believe type 4 really fits any Thinker.
To get T results, you have to be selecting rational, objective, analytical options.
To get 4 results, you have to be selecting practically everything that opposes the above.

Type 4's value individuality, they want to feel unique, special - Thinkers value fairness and equality, they want level playing grounds and the idea of being treated as unique and special doesn't align with a 'T' mindset.

It doesn't make logical sense for a 'T' type to be a Type 4 Enneagram.
 

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I don't believe type 4 really fits any Thinker.
To get T results, you have to be selecting rational, objective, analytical options.
To get 4 results, you have to be selecting practically everything that opposes the above.

Type 4's value individuality, they want to feel unique, special - Thinkers value fairness and equality, they want level playing grounds and the idea of being treated as unique and special doesn't align with a 'T' mindset.

It doesn't make logical sense for a 'T' type to be a Type 4 Enneagram.
I'm tempted to disagree. Type 4's at their core think they're different from others, even flawed; Yet are unafraid to embrace the entire truth of who they are as a person without denial. When you unite type 4 with a thinking type, you get a truth seeker in one of its greatest forms because when you're self-aware and can navigate the line between feeling and thinking, you are simultaneously capable of the greatest depths of emotional reasoning and objectivity.

Therefore, in my opinion, it makes perfect sense for a Thinking type to be a 4 since contradictions don't have to equate to nonsensicality.
 
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I'm tempted to disagree. Type 4's at their core think they're different from others, even flawed; Yet are unafraid to embrace the entire truth of who they are as a person without denial. When you unite type 4 with a thinking type, you get a truth seeker in one of its greatest forms because when you're self-aware and can navigate the line between feeling and thinking, you are simultaneously capable of the greatest depths of emotional reasoning and objectivity.

Therefore, in my opinion, it makes perfect sense for a Thinking type to be a 4 since contradictions don't have to equate to nonsensicality.
I disagree with the notion of marrying a type 4 with a T type.
How can the same person even get both of those results, on the same day?

How can the same person decide on one hand, they're analytical, rational, impersonal, objective, fair, prefer equality and logic over individuality and emotions, and on the other hand that they are emotional, personal, individualistic, subjective and in touch with their feelings - of which, of course, they are magically now renown for to the point they are the supposed 'romantics' of the Enneagram.

The notion of a Thinker who prefers Type 4 (as a core type) doesn't compute.
They're in direct competition with each other.

I don't believe in Type 4 Thinkers being a thing, yet alone them practically becoming some kind of Optimus Prime or Captain Planet archetype.

EDIT: I'm an Enneagram noob, I feel I need to stress this because the way I post somehow makes me come across as if I'm some kind of authority figure wherever I go - which I am definitely not and would never claim to be even if I literally wrote the book on Enneagram.
 

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Not wanting to wade too deep into these cantankerous waters, I just want to say that Jung types serve little purpose within the E, which (through the body of work created by many already) has enough material to expose the roots toward anybody's self-development, with a much greater potential for work.
 
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