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And this is the strict order for you 24/7? Even when you're looking into someone's eyes and telling them you love them?
Of course it's not 24/7, we all shift and change - it is however my default preferences most of the time, which means most of the time I'm preferring Thinking over Feeling which means most of the time I am not aligned with Type 4 on the Enneagram.

It's the same for everyone else who prefers Thinking in MBTI.
If that's your default preference, then you're not a Type 4.

Indeed I also default to that order. Give me a lazy Sunday and I'll Ni/Te away with book in hand. And since Ni is my dominant function, it always seems 'on'. But I spend an enormous amount of time in Te 'work mode' during the week. And I love relaxing into Fi/Se in the evenings (dance/take a bath, turn off the thinking). I enjoy feeling late at night -- I lean into it. During the day I have no patience for feelings.
I relate to this - I'm a musician, I've clearly got a massive 'feeler' side to me, but this is not 'F' in MBTI - it's just emotions/feelings in general, unrelated to 'F'.
I don't believe in 'Te' etc for INTJs.

So, for me, I am INTJ but I can look ENTJish sometimes and even ISFPish at others. That doesn't make me a mistype, it means I have well developed lower functions. In other words, I can do more. I see an INTX with well developed feeling the same way -- capable of more, not automatically a mistype. If they still make decisions based on thinking, they are, in fact, a thinker.
No, they're not automatically a mistype - I'll tell you what is, though - imagine an 'INTJ' that prefers that ISFP mode most of the time, and resonates with Type 4.
Well, then they're mistyped as an INTJ.
This is about preferences, and if you prefer INTJ, you must prefer T, which means most of the time your values and way of getting through life conflicts with most of what makes a Type 4, a Type 4.

It's obviously not that simple or there wouldn't be so many INTXs identifying this way. E4s like to feel, they feel deeply. This doesn't speak to how they will make decisions. They aren't placing "F above T" 24/7 in all ways. Therefore it is possible to be both e4 and a mbti thinker. In INTJs it's very easy to imagine enneagram type getting set young (early childhood) and their Te developing later (teen years). The problem is you see e4s who enjoy feeling/feel deeply and immediately associate them with what a feeler is in mbti. They are different things.
I vehemently disagree, and I have to ask - if someone prefers to feel, and feel deeply - what exactly are they basing their decisions on?

From the official MBTIonline website, here are some keypoints pertaining to "Thinking".

  • Prefer to make decisions based on impersonal logic.
  • Naturally critique new ideas.
  • Objectively analyze pros and cons.
  • Try to uncover the truth through argument or debate.
Maybe it's just me - but that ain't describing anything remotely similar to an E4 core.
4 wing, I can accept. 4 core, no, not an MBTI Thinker.
 

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From the official MBTIonline website, here are some keypoints pertaining to "Thinking".

  • Prefer to make decisions based on impersonal logic.
  • Naturally critique new ideas.
  • Objectively analyze pros and cons.
  • Try to uncover the truth through argument or debate.
Maybe it's just me - but that ain't describing anything remotely similar to an E4 core.
4 wing, I can accept. 4 core, no, not an MBTI Thinker.
I also agree with what you're saying that there's a contradiction, and I don't think any MBTI/Enneagram combination is possible, despite what many want to believe. Perhaps an INTP 4w5 isn't the most outrageous combination (INTP 4w3 would be a lot more incompatible), but whenever I see someone saying IxxJ 7s are possible, then I can't help but think they're mistyped in at least one of the systems. I mean, what ISFJ, ISTJ, INFJ, or INTJ fits this description?

Type Seven in Brief

Sevens are extroverted, optimistic, versatile, and spontaneous. Playful, high-spirited, and practical, they can also misapply their many talents, becoming over-extended, scattered, and undisciplined. They constantly seek new and exciting experiences, but can become distracted and exhausted by staying on the go. They typically have problems with impatience and impulsiveness.
Which then always leads to the person seeing the problem with the description (usually accompanied by, OMG! So many stereotypes! :shocked:), while they try to rewrite and expand the system so much to make an exception for themselves, while also telling others on the forum how it's possible to be Type X with different qualities than that type, rather than considering that maybe they've mistyped themselves. The funny thing is that usually in all the cases I've seen where people try to say they're an exception to the rule to the fundamental characteristics of the type, they end up typing as a different type later on, so all that talk about how they were a different kind of Type X, all flies out the window. I'm not saying that about people in this thread, but I have seen this play out time and time again on this forum, and it's rather absurd, when it would be so much easier (and less confusing to others) to consider a different type combination.

FWIW, Riso-Hudson correlated Type 5 with Ti, and Type 4 with Ni. I can't find the exact passage online, but they mention it here:

Ones and Fives both correspond to Jungian thinking types–the One to the extroverted thinking type (PT, 381-82) and the Five to the introverted thinking type, or to what we suggest might better be termed the "subjective" thinking type (PT, 177-78)
 

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I relate to this - I'm a musician, I've clearly got a massive 'feeler' side to me, but this is not 'F' in MBTI - it's just emotions/feelings in general, unrelated to 'F'.
This is exactly what I'm saying: 'F' in MBTI =/= emotions/feelings in general. And identifying as e4 is a third thing entirely, defined on the significance of feelings. Of course, healthy e4s "engage in reality with meaningful action" (Riso) -- it's only the less than healthy e4s that spend significant amounts of time in their imagination/feelings.

I vehemently disagree, and I have to ask - if someone prefers to feel, and feel deeply - what exactly are they basing their decisions on?
Their thinking if they're a thinker -- by definition. It makes no sense that you experience what it's like to be a "massive feeler" within a MBTI thinker yourself and deny that possibility for someone else. I'm sure you enjoy cultivating your feelings at times with music --e4s do this and a few other things with feelings. But making decisions with them isn't necessarily one of them.

There is nothing to preclude INTXs from being e4 even if INFX e4 and INTX e5 is more common.
 

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Their thinking if they're a thinker -- by definition. It makes no sense that you experience what it's like to be a "massive feeler" within a MBTI thinker yourself and deny that possibility for someone else. I'm sure you enjoy cultivating your feelings at times with music --e4s do this and a few other things with feelings. But making decisions with them isn't necessarily one of them.

There is nothing to preclude INTXs from being e4 even if INFX e4 and INTX e5 is more common.
I'm not denying anybody anything.


I don't really want to waste any more time on this, so I'll just leave this quote here and hope that people who read this post can connect the dots themselves - from The Complete Enneagram by Beatrice Chestnut.

The natural strengths of Type Fours include their large capacity for emotional sensitivity and depth, their ability to sense what is going on between people on the emotional level, their natural feel for aesthetics and creativity, and their idealistic and romantic sensibility.

Relatively unafraid of intense feelings, Fours value the expression of authentic emotion and can support others with great care, respect, and sensitivity when they are experiencing painful emotions.

Fours are highly empathic and can see the beauty and power in painful feelings that other types habitually avoid.
Fours’ “superpower” is that they are naturally emotionally intuitive.
This is clearly at odds with virtually any Thinker descriptor.
 

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No, they're not automatically a mistype - I'll tell you what is, though - imagine an 'INTJ' that prefers that ISFP mode most of the time, and resonates with Type 4.
Well, then they're mistyped as an INTJ.
This is about preferences, and if you prefer INTJ, you must prefer T, which means most of the time your values and way of getting through life conflicts with most of what makes a Type 4, a Type 4.

I vehemently disagree, and I have to ask - if someone prefers to feel, and feel deeply - what exactly are they basing their decisions on?

From the official MBTIonline website, here are some keypoints pertaining to "Thinking".

  • Prefer to make decisions based on impersonal logic.
  • Naturally critique new ideas.
  • Objectively analyze pros and cons.
  • Try to uncover the truth through argument or debate.
This is funny. I am an INTJ, 4w5, while I admit I'm not an enneagram expert I have no doubt I was not mistyped.
The fact that I feel deeply (which I do, I indulge in my emotions a lot) doesn't change the order of my cognitive functions. I still use Ni-Te-Fi-Se, in that order, even if I appear to be softer, more empathetic than a standard cold blooded INTJ. It's not a preference, it's a default state.

e4 is what motivates me, what gives me fulfilment, I want to be aware and in control of my emotions, not to make decisions with them. My strong values are what pushes Te, not something that overtakes it. Not when I'm healthy.

"Profoundly creative, expressing the personal and the universal, possibly in a work of art. Inspired, self-renewing and regenerating: able to transform all their experiences into something valuable: self-creative.individualistic, "true to self." Self-revealing, emotionally honest, humane. "
This is what I want to achieve through Ni-Te-Fi-Se. It's nothing I can't do while being a "Thinker".
Think of an architect who uses his big vision (Ni) to prepare a project (Te) which allows him to express his values (Fi) through beauty (Se). It's what an INTJ e4 is.


Since it's focused on "self" maybe there's some correlation with introverted cognitive functions? And if so I see how it's Ni, Fi kind of thing, and not Ti Si.

The natural strengths of Type Fours include their large capacity for emotional sensitivity and depth, their ability to sense what is going on between people on the emotional level, their natural feel for aesthetics and creativity, and their idealistic and romantic sensibility.

Relatively unafraid of intense feelings, Fours value the expression of authentic emotion and can support others with great care, respect, and sensitivity when they are experiencing painful emotions.

Fours are highly empathic and can see the beauty and power in painful feelings that other types habitually avoid.
Fours’ “superpower” is that they are naturally emotionally intuitive.
I identify. It still has nothing to do with using feelings as a value judgement. I think the problem here is that you confuse emotions, being emotionally aware thus feeling intensely and understanding emotions with using FEELINGS as a value judgement function.
The emotional depth I have, the understanding of emotions (mine and others) I have is made through an objective analyse (Ni+Te) of my own intense emotional states. I just don't run away from them, it's what interests me.
 

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This is funny. I am an INTJ, 4w5, while I admit I'm not an enneagram expert I have no doubt I was not mistyped.
The fact that I feel deeply (which I do, I indulge in my emotions a lot) doesn't change the order of my cognitive functions. I still use Ni-Te-Fi-Se, in that order, even if I appear to be softer, more empathetic than a standard cold blooded INTJ. It's not a preference, it's a default state.

e4 is what motivates me, what gives me fulfilment, I want to be aware and in control of my emotions, not to make decisions with them. My strong values are what pushes Te, not something that overtakes it. Not when I'm healthy.



This is what I want to achieve through Ni-Te-Fi-Se. It's nothing I can't do while being a "Thinker".
Think of an architect who uses his big vision (Ni) to prepare a project (Te) which allows him to express his values (Fi) through beauty (Se). It's what an INTJ e4 is.


Since it's focused on "self" maybe there's some correlation with introverted cognitive functions? And if so I see how it's Ni, Fi kind of thing, and not Ti Si.
For me to buy most of the above, I have to buy the Harold Grant cognitive function stack - which I don't, so I won't comment on this.


I identify. It still has nothing to do with using feelings as a value judgement. I think the problem here is that you confuse emotions, being emotionally aware thus feeling intensely and understanding emotions with using FEELINGS as a value judgement function.
The emotional depth I have, the understanding of emotions (mine and others) I have is made through an objective analyse (Ni+Te) of my own intense emotional states. I just don't run away from them, it's what interests me.
I am definitely not confusing emotions with MBTI F, if you'd read my posts you would understand that - ironically, you confuse the two in the same sentence you accuse me of confusing the two.

This has run its course for me, I don't see value in people using themselves to somehow support their argument.
Simple fact is, Thinking contradicts Enneagram Type 4 in so many ways, that the two are directly opposed.
 

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"I don't have enough knowledge so your reasoning is invalid" basically.
You used a self-referential argument and mentioned the Harold Grant cognitive function stack.
Ain't nobody got tahme fo' dat.
 

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You used a self-referential argument and mentioned the Harold Grant cognitive function stack.
Ain't nobody got tahme fo' dat.
What I said...

But you could also explain how what you quoted
The natural strengths of Type Fours include their large capacity for emotional sensitivity and depth, their ability to sense what is going on between people on the emotional level, their natural feel for aesthetics and creativity, and their idealistic and romantic sensibility.

Relatively unafraid of intense feelings, Fours value the expression of authentic emotion and can support others with great care, respect, and sensitivity when they are experiencing painful emotions.

Fours are highly empathic and can see the beauty and power in painful feelings that other types habitually avoid.
Fours’ “superpower” is that they are naturally emotionally intuitive.
is a contradiction to this
From the official MBTIonline website, here are some keypoints pertaining to "Thinking".

Prefer to make decisions based on impersonal logic.
Naturally critique new ideas.
Objectively analyze pros and cons.
Try to uncover the truth through argument or debate.
 

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What I said...

But you could also explain how what you quoted

is a contradiction to this
Use your intuition, connect the dots.

MBTI Thinkers are not 'highly empathic' their superpower is not being 'emotionally intuitive', they do not value 'authentic emotion' - rather, they shy away from emotion - and literally suppress their own when making decisions - their natural strength is not their 'emotional sensitivity'.
Sensing what is going on between people on an emotional level is not a trait of MBTI T types.

Your understanding of your emotions through what you refer to as 'Ni-Te' - this objective analysis of your emotional states - tells me you're not an Enneagram type 4. You see emotions as a tool, something to analyse. This tells me that you are actually detached from emotions.

Healthy Type 4s are "very personal, revealing and communicating in their feelings in ways that enable others to get in touch with their own emotions" - from Riso and Hudsons "Using The Enneagram For Self-Development".
Sorry - does this sound like something an INTJ strives for? To be personal? Revealing? Communicating their feelings?

Type 4's are expressive. Thinkers are renown for being expressionless.

I'm mystified that I even have to go through all of this.
MBTI Thinking and a core Type 4 Enneagram conflict with each other. imo.
 

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Use your intuition, connect the dots.

MBTI Thinkers are not 'highly empathic' their superpower is not being 'emotionally intuitive', they do not value 'authentic emotion' - rather, they shy away from emotion - and literally suppress their own when making decisions - their natural strength is not their 'emotional sensitivity'.
Sensing what is going on between people on an emotional level is not a trait of MBTI T types.

Your understanding of your emotions through what you refer to as 'Ni-Te' - this objective analysis of your emotional states - tells me you're not an Enneagram type 4. You see emotions as a tool, something to analyse. This tells me that you are actually detached from emotions.

Healthy Type 4s are "very personal, revealing and communicating in their feelings in ways that enable others to get in touch with their own emotions" - from Riso and Hudsons "Using The Enneagram For Self-Development".
Sorry - does this sound like something an INTJ strives for? To be personal? Revealing? Communicating their feelings?

Type 4's are expressive. Thinkers are renown for being expressionless.

I'm mystified that I even have to go through all of this.
MBTI Thinking and a core Type 4 Enneagram conflict with each other. imo.
That's what an immature thinker would do. Are you going to tell me that thinkers don't feel and "shy away from their emotions"? You can even go to the main MBTI's page and you will found that "F" & "T" is for decision making. A thinker puts their emotion aside to make decisions, it doesn't matter if you're sensitive or if you're not. You put them aside.

Not sure how being very personal, revealing and communicating can obstruct you from putting your emotions aside to make a decision, but alright. You're focusing your statements on stereotypes. An INTJ can strive for that, perhaps not with everyone but to those he/she trust. That you don't feel that way doesn't mean another INTJ can, you can't expect all INTJs to act a certain way.

There are more or less 7.6 billion people on the world, none is exactly the same, because XXXX type tend to do something, doesn't mind everyone in that type is going to.

You can have your opinion, there is no doubt in that but you want to change ours and to indulge that it is impossible, even though if you take time to research you can find it does.

MBTI "T" or "F" deals more with how you prefer to make decisions while Enneagram deals with your underlying motivations.
 
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I'm also INTP 4w5. I've repeated both tests after a few years, just to be sure. These are just two sides of my personality. E.g. I'm deeply romantic, but noone really knows about it. In everyday life I prefer to use logic and reason. I like to feel different than everybody else, but I'm certainly not a drama queen and I value objectivity. I love gaining knowledge and creating systems, I live mainly in my head, but the way I look is very important to me. Etc, etc... English is not my first language, so it's difficult for me to write about certain subtleties, but I certainly feel like both type descriptions fit me to a large extent.
 

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There is nothing wrong with being a 4w5 INTP. I myself am a 5w4.
 
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