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So, for those of you familiar with it, there's this game called Portal (puzzle game where you can create your own portal on certain surfaces,, have to use laws of physics and creative thinking to solve "areas" ...look it up). I played it on xbox back in the day, and eventually bought Portal 2, beat that, whatever. Well, I hadn't played in a long while, and my INTP buddy bought it and wanted to do the co-op compaign. So we have, it's beat, good times, I digress:

Here's what I noticed during gameplay, solving puzzles: I was really good at seeing all the options, getting from point A to point B, knowing what'd happen if I did this or that, etc .....yet he was solving them faster most of the time. And oddly, even tho we use the same functions, just a Dom-Aux flip, for some reason half the time he needed to see an idea played out in front of him, even if I could tell him exactly what was gonna happen without doing it. Yet he solved the puzzles faster. I don't get it.

Does this make sense to anybody?
 

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Seeing what is going to happen in a logical order its not solving logic problems "Un-tooking" the possibilities (obviously). so its like this:

 

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I have the same issue with my brother.

Lets say we have a scale of "knowledge" on subject X. It goes from 0 to 100.

0-30 range: ENTP exceeds INTP by a landslide. I figure out the easy tricks quickly and I can improvise whatever is needed quickly

30-60: we are almost at par

60+: INTP does everything at lightning speed, while I'm still dependant on abusing my tricks and superficial rules of thumb I saw in the first flash.

Same applys to puzzle solving. If you suddenly got a new portal gun - lets say the portal gun that shoots green goop of win, the ENTP would solve the first puzzles that involves it very quickly, due to this initial "flash" of understanding. But after a few levels, the INTP would get the hang of it (If he hasn't already previously from the beginning, through his Ni) and own faces.
 

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I'm not trying to be difficult here, and I certainly have no proverbial dog in this fight as I'm essentially an ambivert, however my impression is that to real world observation it is going to be virtually indistinguishable whether someone is Ti-Ne dominant like the INTP is, or is Ne-Ti dominant like the ENTP.

Both like to tackle new problems, intensely concentrate on solving them by logically breaking down their component parts while (remarkably) at the same time brain storming what it all means as far as achieving the optimal solution(s) to the problem, and all of this on the fly often while experimenting with those potential solutions (in this case, through trial and error during actual game play). If intelligent, both have learning curves that get near-vertical very quickly and stay that way until they've achieved nearly total mastery of the problem.

The theoretically most noticeable distinction might be the ENTP's love of problem solving and brainstorming as a group, versus an INTP's more solitary approach, however, INTP's who are geeked out by a problem and in a comfortable social setting may well be just as verbal.

We can theorize about how dominant Ne might show itself differently versus dominant Ti, but when you're talking about the way that the two operate together as the primary and secondary functions for INTP's and ENTP's, they're simply going to be two sides of the same coin. The good news is that they're arguably the most powerful two functions to have when finding solutions to logic-based problems, which means that INTP's and ENTP's are going to be in high demand in those settings.
 

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Eh. I played Portal 2 with my ISTP cousin, and most of the time he was faster at seeing how to solve the puzzle. I was usually the one to get us out of a bind when we got stuck on puzzles for long periods, but yeah, he had a real talent for the game.

It probably has something to do with the way we think.

For example, he'll see a problem and then think of a possible way to get through it. He'll focus on that first idea until it has proven that it won't be the solution, then try something else.

Me, my thought process is scattered and goes more like: "Ohhh so that's how that works, okay so I could do this because that right there does that...but then maybe this would work! Oh but look at that over there, that's what needs to happen, perhaps if I tried that..."

And while that's going on...ISTP cousin solves the puzzle. :tongue:
 

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Same applies to puzzle solving. If you suddenly got a new portal gun - lets say the portal gun that shoots green goop of win, the ENTP would solve the first puzzles that involves it very quickly, due to this initial "flash" of understanding. But after a few levels, the INTP would get the hang of it (If he hasn't already previously from the beginning, through his Ni) and own faces.
INTPs don't have Ni. It is possible the OP's friend is not INTP but ISTP (who does have Ni). I know some ISTPs who can look a lot like INTPs (especially if their Se isn't that noticeable) but are able to deduce things really quickly and effectively.
 

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Eh. I played Portal 2 with my ISTP cousin, and most of the time he was faster at seeing how to solve the puzzle. I was usually the one to get us out of a bind when we got stuck on puzzles for long periods, but yeah, he had a real talent for the game.

It probably has something to do with the way we think.

For example, he'll see a problem and then think of a possible way to get through it. He'll focus on that first idea until it has proven that it won't be the solution, then try something else.

Me, my thought process is scattered and goes more like: "Ohhh so that's how that works, okay so I could do this because that right there does that...but then maybe this would work! Oh but look at that over there, that's what needs to happen, perhaps if I tried that..."

And while that's going on...ISTP cousin solves the puzzle. :tongue:
Very random recollection here, but there was a scene in the old Starsky and Hutch TV show (classic 70's cop show for those who don't know), where they're trapped in a meat locker or something which was airtight. Anyway, Hutch who was the more cerebral "N" character (maybe INFP or INTP) is sitting there figuring out how many hours they'll have before they suffocate based upon the cubic space inside the room, while Starsky (I'd figure he was ESTP) loaded up a cart with as many heavy things as possible and broke open the door.

I swear I saw that like when I was six years old and I have no idea why why such a random scene stuck with me, except that perhaps it resonated with me somehow. Maybe now I know why...
 

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INTPs don't have Ni. It is possible the OP's friend is not INTP but ISTP (who does have Ni). I know some ISTPs who can look a lot like INTPs (especially if their Se isn't that noticeable) but are able to deduce things really quickly and effectively.
Intelligent ISTP's are superb at problem solving, however they will tend to do better with more tangible, real world problems (e.g. we are missing a replacement part for this machine - do we need to replace it and if so what other part might we use - the Apollo 13 oxygen filter situation) while INTP's will tend to outperform them on more abstract problems (e.g. theory of relativity). These are only general trends, with many real world exceptions.

Also, it bears mentioning that something like a problem-solving computer game may well involve problems that include elements involving both Sensing and iNtuition, so we can't universalize here. Also, a given problem may be solved with either a Sensing or iNtuitive approach leading the way.
 

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(If he hasn't already previously from the beginning, through his Ni)
Ni? this is kerseys forum, Ti instead, also is the Ti the function that causes that ISTPs and INTPs are the best at solving logical problems.
 

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I played that game with an ESFP. He was good at figuring out the immediate problems. I was good at finding and solving later problems as they arose. We beat the game at an unreasonable speed.

This is how it would work in and INTPs head vs an ENTPs head.
ENTP: Problem --> Find notable pattern --> Find solution --> Finish
INTP: Problem --> Consider possible solutions --> Find solution --> Finish
 

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I played that game with an ESFP. He was good at figuring out the immediate problems. I was good at finding and solving later problems as they arose. We beat the game at an unreasonable speed.

This is how it would work in and INTPs head vs an ENTPs head.
ENTP: Problem --> Find notable pattern --> Find solution --> Finish
INTP: Problem --> Consider possible solutions --> Find solution --> Finish
Based upon what?

I agree that a strong Ne is looking for patterns in the problem and then "reverse engineering" the way the problem was created in order to essentially untie it and solve it. Again, I think both types do this, and in both cases the Ne is very much Ti (and for that matter, Te) guided.

I'm just wondering what the INTP in your decription is using as a basis for "considering possible solutions" if not the very same pattern-finding Ne that the ENTP is using.
 

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Based upon what?

I agree that a strong Ne is looking for patterns in the problem and then "reverse engineering" the way the problem was created in order to essentially untie it and solve it. Again, I think both types do this, and in both cases the Ne is very much Ti (and for that matter, Te) guided.

I'm just wondering what the INTP in your decription is using as a basis for "considering possible solutions" if not the very same pattern-finding Ne that the ENTP is using.
Of course there are other aspects I didn't mention when it comes to solving problems. It would be ridiculous to name all the variables. I simply put it the way I did to note that INTPs may need to catch on and see the patterns a few times before getting used to them. After they have, then they need to play out the contingencies and get the mental picture beforehand to use them.

I also never put that ENTPs think about it either, If you didn't catch it. I just considered the dominant functions. Were I to go with the auxiliaries as well, it would be the same for both, but with greater weight to steps.
 

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Very random recollection here, but there was a scene in the old Starsky and Hutch TV show (classic 70's cop show for those who don't know), where they're trapped in a meat locker or something which was airtight. Anyway, Hutch who was the more cerebral "N" character (maybe INFP or INTP) is sitting there figuring out how many hours they'll have before they suffocate based upon the cubic space inside the room, while Starsky (I'd figure he was ESTP) loaded up a cart with as many heavy things as possible and broke open the door.

I swear I saw that like when I was six years old and I have no idea why why such a random scene stuck with me, except that perhaps it resonated with me somehow. Maybe now I know why...
It's not "random". It's "arbitrary".
 

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It's not "random". It's "arbitrary".
No, actually it's random, though certainly other words might apply - see 4a and also synonyms:

ran·dom

   /ˈræn
dəm
/ Show Spelled[ran-duh
m] Show IPA
adjective 1. proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers.

2. Statistics . of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

3. Building Trades . a. (of building materials) lacking uniformity of dimensions: random shingles.

b. (of ashlar) laid without continuous courses.

c. constructed or applied without regularity: random bond.



4. Informal . a. unknown, unidentified, or out of place: A couple of random guys showed up at the party.

b. odd and unpredictable in an amusing way: my totally random life.




#mid1{border-top:solid 1px #E4E4E4;border-bottom:solid 1px #E4E4E4;padding-bottom:8px;padding-top:8px;}noun 5. Chiefly British . bank3 ( def. 7b ) .



adverb 6. Building Trades . without uniformity: random-sized slates.


Idiom 7. at random, without definite aim, purpose, method, or adherence to a prior arrangement; in a haphazard way: Contestants were chosen at random from the studio audience.


Origin:
1275–1325; Middle English raundon, random < Old French randon, derivative of randir to gallop < Germanic

Related forms ran·dom·ly, adverb
ran·dom·ness, noun
non·ran·dom, adjective
non·ran·dom·ly, adverb
non·ran·dom·ness, noun

Synonyms
1.
haphazard, chance, fortuitous.




Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011.




"Arbitrary" is actually not appropriate here given that I didn't choose or decide to have this recollection:

ar·bi·trar·y

   /ˈɑr
i
/ Show Spelled [ahr-bi-trer-ee] Show IPA adjective, noun, plural -trar·ies.
adjective 1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.

2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.

3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government.

4. capricious; unreasonable; unsupported: an arbitrary demand for payment.

5. Mathematics . undetermined; not assigned a specific value: an arbitrary constant.


#mid1{border-top:solid 1px #E4E4E4;border-bottom:solid 1px #E4E4E4;padding-bottom:8px;padding-top:8px;}noun 6. arbitraries, Printing . (in Britain) peculiar ( def. 9 ) .






Origin:
1400–50; late Middle English < Latin arbitrārius uncertain (i.e., depending on an arbiter's decision). See arbiter, -ary

Related forms ar·bi·trar·i·ly  /ˈɑr
ə
li,
ˌɑr
bɪˈtrɛər-
/ Show Spelled[ahr-bi-trer-uh-lee, ahr-bi-trair-] Show IPA, adverb
ar·bi·trar·i·ness, noun
non·ar·bi·trar·i·ly, adverb
non·ar·bi·trar·i·ness, noun
non·ar·bi·trar·y, adjective
EXPAND un·ar·bi·trar·i·ly, adverb
un·ar·bi·trar·y, adjective
COLLAPSE


Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011.


Having figured that out, can we stop with the public maturbation over language and vocabulary, or do you still have more lube?


P.S. - I love that my source - unintentionally - is Random House...
 

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No, actually it's random, though certainly other words might apply - see 4a and also synonyms:
Excuse me, 4b.

Is anyone else having trouble editing posts on this site over the last 12 hours or so?
 

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@redmanXNTP I still have plenty of lube. I understand that the term "random" has been raped and massacred into the new understanding of the word, however traditionally, it refers to "functioning upon chance."
 

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This is how it would work in and INTPs head vs an ENTPs head.
ENTP: Problem
--> Find notable pattern --> Find solution --> Finish
INTP: Problem
--> Consider possible solutions --> Find solution --> Finish
I am not sure. For simpler levels I extrapolated off laws of physics/momentum, or the pincipals learned in past levels, and so I would have been extrapolating off of an established pattern. For later levels, however, my deductions usually consisted of brainstorming possibilities, then rapid process of elimination, and guess and check if it came down to more than one option. I never thought as my process as reverse engineering before, but I do look for connections between objects in the environment.

More specifically, I consider how they might relate to each other, and to other parts. This is a cursory analysis, however, to establish the general purpose/function of items. I spend more time going through the routes in my head were I to perform other known, or possible, actions. Somehow this percolates into Rube-Goldberg chains of variable efficiency. I do not always pick the fastest route; I usually choose the route which will test the limits/possibilities of the environment to the fullest while still getting me to the goal. (Hence, in Portal, my objective was to make it through every level carting every portable object to the end-level incinerating field. A secondary objective was to not drop the breakable items, as this caused more work).

Also, even when I did find a solution/pattern, I would often spend some time looking for alternate solutions/routes.

Had I been playing competitively where speed was important, my switch from pattern seeking to brainstorming would have been much the same - with the exception that I would have tested theories as soon as I deemed them viable, and eliminated some of the more extranneous variables (such as achievements or personal whims) that I was factoring in to my solutions.

That is perhaps why I prefer to play computer games alone. My competitive nature curtails the creativity that solving a problem by oneself allows.

Then again, for an ENTP I am borderline INTP. My use of pattern or possibility, sometimes in a cyclic fashion, in general problem solving might not be representative.
 
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