[riteofspringroll]

There's a tl;dr at the bottom if you don't have the patience for this because I got a little carried away.

I'm an INFJ female in a relationship with an INTP male. We're both college sophomores.

We met via mutual friends and became close very quickly. We are both very quiet, I guess, and find each other very interesting, and ended up spending a lot of comfortable time alone together, sometimes discussing ideas and interests, sometimes in silence. We were both pretty fucked up last semester (we only started officially "dating" a few weeks ago but had been hooking up for months before that) and we would go on walks in the park at 3:00am and I would sleep over a ton and we could nap and do work together and listen to music and it just felt....very very safe and like there was an understanding.

ANYWAY, I've been having such a hard time because despite how special he is to me and how much time we've spent together I feel SO LONELY around him pretty constantly. I've never dated a T before, and I think a lot of it might be how new that is to me and how differently he moves through the world.
It's taken some adjustment, but I don't ask him how he's feeling too frequently and instead will ask him questions about his interests or ask for his opinion about things, because that seems to be more in line with where he's at at any given time, but it is SO HARD to feel any sort of intimacy with him because he usually blows off my questions and just answers with "nothing" or "I don't know" etc

For Valentine's Day yesterday I put in a fuck ton of effort to get him shit that he would like and is personal to him (I got him a Beach House ticket and we love them/they're sold out, a super rare shirt from this designer he offhandedly mentioned he liked once, I walked for like thirty minutes in the snow to get him special gluten free desserts because he has celiac, etc) and he literally just said "thanks" and that's basically it and we went on with the night as normal and basically watched cartoons. He didn't do anything for me because it's not his thing and it's not a big deal.
And I preceded all this by telling him that I just wanted to be kind to him and don't expect anything from him and I know that he loves me in his own way and I feel that and it's important to me. And that I really meant it, which I did.

After we watched cartoons we were reading and I started to feel kind of shitty and he could sense it so he asked me what was wrong, and I basically told him that like.....I know that he shows me he loves me by spending time with me and sharing his life with me, and I am so grateful for those things and try to show him I love him that way as well, and I'll also do things like get him some really fucking nice presents because I want to and walk over to his place in the snow with gatorade and medicine at 3:00am because he's sick and spend time I should use more responsibly with him because I love being with him, and he basically...acts like those are completely mundane actions on my part?
And I barely bring up "serious" (ie emotional) things because I know that's a lot for him, but when I do, he basically either literally or figuratively sends me like...a comforting emoji and doesn't even fucking contribute? And I don't expect him to have this whole slew of emotions or even thoughts to express, but I would appreciate like three words recognizing that this is important to me and he gives a fuck.

So last night I told him about both of those things and how basically the common thread is that I keep being really fucking vulnerable in front of him and I literally have no clue what he thinks ever and it makes me feel shitty.
And then he looked at me and said something to the extent of "I don't understand what you want," or "What do you want me to do"
and that scared the fuck out of me, because I thought I was being pretty clear and not at all unreasonable.

TL;DR: sometimes I really feel the "completely emotionless INTP" thing from him and I don't want to write him off like that but am really freaked out and have no idea what to do. I feel like there's something fundamental about him that I'm not understanding.
How do INTPs feel when they really love someone? How do you act when you're close to them? How do you express your gratitude? What is "intimacy" to you? <-- all those types of questions.

Frankly I would just assume he really didn't like me or was taking advantage of me, but he asks me to be/stay over with him ALL the time, says (kind of impersonally sweet but sweet nonetheless) sweet things to me pretty frequently akin to "you're so nice," asks me to go on a trip w him and his family over break, which I did, and even like, asked me to go to Europe with him sometime, which is ridiculous. So I'm pretty sure he's forreal. But I guess I can't tell if he's just not trying hard enough or if there's major shit I'm missing. (probably both.) I'm trying really hard to be patient and to love him like he wants to be loved

 

[shallnotbenamed]

Either he should be more appreciative or he doesn't know how to express himself.

Ask him how he'd feel if he thought of a very awesome idea/logical principle and spent 15 minutes explaining it to you, and you said "k". And tell him that's how you feel sometimes.

Dating can be a lot of fun if you put some effort into it, especially if your partner's meeting you halfway:crazy:

 

[Decoy24601]

I think it has more to do with both of you as individuals and less to do with MBTI. I'm with an INFJ and neither of us see the need for frequent validation. We both make effort towards the relationship and each time one person does something special for the other we say thanks and that's sufficient for us. We both know that each other is grateful, why make the other person jump through unnecessary hoops? What exactly do you think it will accomplish you for him to shower you in praise?

Also, the "completely emotionless INTP" stereotype is bullshit. All the "T" does is help dictate what we use to make decisions with. It doesn't mean we have less emotions or that we are less capable of being aware of them. Neither my INFJ or I feel the need to frequently ask how each other feels. I think part of it is how secure a person feels in the relationship and with his/herself. If something seems wrong with one of us yes, we will ask the other what's wrong, but sometimes the answer is "I don't know" or that one of us is just in an inexplicable funk, and we have to accept that. We both have our moments of being less aware of our emotions, but even though I'm an INTP doesn't mean that I don't have as many emotions and just because he's an INFJ doesn't mean that he is brimming with extra emotions.

Intimacy with me is feeling completely comfortable and safe with the other person. Love isn't some rush and exciting thing where we compete to show that love. It's calm. Love isn't unrealistic expectations of the other person. Love isn't being needy.

To be frank, are you sure that the issue is less his reactions and more your expectations from them?

Edit: Please, communicate basically what you wrote here to him. Just tell him that you don't appreciate emojis as a method of showing comfort, even though you completely understand that it's meant to comfort you. He likely doesn't realize that you dislike that.

 

[Decoy24601]

Accidental Double Post.

 

[Dasein]

 

[Eryngo]

Ultimately there's no excuse for him stiffing you on Valentine's Day. (And then asking you what's the matter?!) If this is customary behaviour, maybe you need to examine your theory of the relationship altogether. It really doesn't matter what he actually wants if this is what YOU actually get, does it? But hey, I'm INTP. We see things logically. Good luck! (Given your age, you're in the right place to be figuring these things out, don't worry. It's all part of the process.)

 

[Lonewaer]

 

There's a tl;dr at the bottom if you don't have the patience for this because I got a little carried away.

I'm an INFJ female in a relationship with an INTP male. We're both college sophomores.

We met via mutual friends and became close very quickly. We are both very quiet, I guess, and find each other very interesting, and ended up spending a lot of comfortable time alone together, sometimes discussing ideas and interests, sometimes in silence. We were both pretty fucked up last semester (we only started officially "dating" a few weeks ago but had been hooking up for months before that) and we would go on walks in the park at 3:00am and I would sleep over a ton and we could nap and do work together and listen to music and it just felt....very very safe and like there was an understanding.

ANYWAY, I've been having such a hard time because despite how special he is to me and how much time we've spent together I feel SO LONELY around him pretty constantly. I've never dated a T before, and I think a lot of it might be how new that is to me and how differently he moves through the world.
It's taken some adjustment, but I don't ask him how he's feeling too frequently and instead will ask him questions about his interests or ask for his opinion about things, because that seems to be more in line with where he's at at any given time, but it is SO HARD to feel any sort of intimacy with him because he usually blows off my questions and just answers with "nothing" or "I don't know" etc

For Valentine's Day yesterday I put in a fuck ton of effort to get him shit that he would like and is personal to him (I got him a Beach House ticket and we love them/they're sold out, a super rare shirt from this designer he offhandedly mentioned he liked once, I walked for like thirty minutes in the snow to get him special gluten free desserts because he has celiac, etc) and he literally just said "thanks" and that's basically it and we went on with the night as normal and basically watched cartoons. He didn't do anything for me because it's not his thing and it's not a big deal.
And I preceded all this by telling him that I just wanted to be kind to him and don't expect anything from him and I know that he loves me in his own way and I feel that and it's important to me. And that I really meant it, which I did.

After we watched cartoons we were reading and I started to feel kind of shitty and he could sense it so he asked me what was wrong, and I basically told him that like.....I know that he shows me he loves me by spending time with me and sharing his life with me, and I am so grateful for those things and try to show him I love him that way as well, and I'll also do things like get him some really fucking nice presents because I want to and walk over to his place in the snow with gatorade and medicine at 3:00am because he's sick and spend time I should use more responsibly with him because I love being with him, and he basically...acts like those are completely mundane actions on my part?
And I barely bring up "serious" (ie emotional) things because I know that's a lot for him, but when I do, he basically either literally or figuratively sends me like...a comforting emoji and doesn't even fucking contribute? And I don't expect him to have this whole slew of emotions or even thoughts to express, but I would appreciate like three words recognizing that this is important to me and he gives a fuck.

So last night I told him about both of those things and how basically the common thread is that I keep being really fucking vulnerable in front of him and I literally have no clue what he thinks ever and it makes me feel shitty.
And then he looked at me and said something to the extent of "I don't understand what you want," or "What do you want me to do"
and that scared the fuck out of me, because I thought I was being pretty clear and not at all unreasonable.

TL;DR: sometimes I really feel the "completely emotionless INTP" thing from him and I don't want to write him off like that but am really freaked out and have no idea what to do. I feel like there's something fundamental about him that I'm not understanding.
How do INTPs feel when they really love someone? How do you act when you're close to them? How do you express your gratitude? What is "intimacy" to you? <-- all those types of questions.

Frankly I would just assume he really didn't like me or was taking advantage of me, but he asks me to be/stay over with him ALL the time, says (kind of impersonally sweet but sweet nonetheless) sweet things to me pretty frequently akin to "you're so nice," asks me to go on a trip w him and his family over break, which I did, and even like, asked me to go to Europe with him sometime, which is ridiculous. So I'm pretty sure he's forreal. But I guess I can't tell if he's just not trying hard enough or if there's major shit I'm missing. (probably both.) I'm trying really hard to be patient and to love him like he wants to be loved

To me here, one of the issues you're facing is love languages. You guys have different love languages. Look them up, both of you, and work on them. You're missing each other in that regard, you're walking to each other, but don't see each other. It's like one of you is saying "catch the ball", throwing a ball, and the other sees a cube thrown in the air, and doesn't react.

One other issue is that when you ask him something and he says he doesn't know or "nothing", you assume that he knows or that there is something. Sure, there could be something, but you don't know that. He could also haven't made up his mind about a topic, or he could have trouble naming/describing his feelings, or he could be able to do that, but still be in a completely different place in his mind. I know that, and that doesn't seem common for INTPs, I sometimes "blank out". That's when I think about nothing. Literally nothing. Most of the time my mind is racing, but some other times, I think about absolutely nothing.
So there might be something, but you can't just assume there is, because it could very likely be that there isn't.

As for your questions :

How do INTPs feel when they really love someone?

The first thing that popped into my head is : baby don't hurt me.
Aside from that, unclear. It's one of those cases for me, when I don't know what the heck's happening with my feelings. I have been in love, for the past year (~), and I'm not sure what's making me think I —still— am.
I think I have an extremely strong need for the person to be closer. Wherever they are, physically and mentally, I want them closer. Note, it doesn't have to be verbal. I think that's important to say since you feel alone when with him. Maybe he's perfectly happy with having you around, without the need of verbal communication. I know I would be fine with that. I know a good match when we can stay together silently, without the silence being uncomfortable. I've had a lot of cases of being silent with other introverts, some of them good friends, and silence can be very uncomfortable.

With some stepping back, it's —at least for me— like other non-INTP-people have described, a drug. I don't have an addictive personality, I know some people have that more than others, but I don't actually have any addiction, and I don't know how usual addictions feel. But I can tell that when I'm in love I'm on fucking drugs. It's the urge to have the person closer that I just described. There's a feeling of wanting to explode without knowing why, like when I get really excited about something. Heh. Maybe that's just excitement, I don't know. But I can physically feel it boil in my stomach.

How do you act when you're close to them?

Define close. If physically close, I don't know. I can easily guess lots of hugging, touching. I can see myself feeling safer in any otherwise uncomfortable situation, than I would feel on my own.
Beyond that I'm not sure. It could go from too much PDA, to few enough so that my SO could feel neglected. But the feels would be here and strong, on my end at least. Before this year, I was somehow a little repulsed when seeing my ISTP friend and his gf with all their PDA. That seemed like too much for me to even look at. But since then, I have met someone, and turns out that's now pretty reasonable from my point of view.

I wanted to add something for that question but I lost my train of thoughts. Meh. It was probably not that important.

How do you express your gratitude?

Love languages. I'm big on quality time and physical touch (only with the SO), and to a much lesser extent, acts of service and words of affirmation. Gifts don't do much for me when I receive them, and I don't like offering them. Acts of service are peculiar, I'm not sure how much I score on these, but I think I can be more receptive to them than I think. I think Ti can let me see things for more than just the service, and the tiniest thing, to me, from the right person, can mean a lot more because it'll be thoughtful.

Now how do I express it, quality time and physical touch are the main ones, again. I think I do acts of service more unconsciously, but also more than I think I do. Then I get the fuck out of my comfort zone to provide with as much words of affirmation that I*can. That wasn't enough last time, but I did everything I could, far beyond what is comfortable/natural for me. Gifts are a pain in the ass for me. Sure it's nice to receive some, sure it's nice when my gifts are appreciated, but that's not nearly worth the time wasted thinking about what to offer and where to get it, only to then have to go out and waste some more time to actually get it. People like my gifts ? I fucking hope so, because it was a hassle. I'd rather not receive any and not have to offer any, rather than receiving some and having to find some for others.

For gifts, I also noticed last week that apparently all gifts that I received from my parents, and my father in particular, are an attempt at manipulating me. It has somehow worked for 28 years. I hate it. That might be why I'm dead last on gifts. Beyond that, I really don't see the point except maintaining a pointless tradition.

What is "intimacy" to you?

I'm realizing while typing all this that to me it's the same thing as love. When I do love someone, is when I feel comfortable being intimate with that person.
Intimacy to me is being ok with that person touching me for example. It's feeling vulnerable around them. Intimacy to me is strictly private. As soon as something intimate goes public I*feel betrayed, and like I shouldn't have been intimate with the person, in the specific instance that later leaks.

 

[RestlessCryptid]

Yeah... We are pretty expressionless, but not unemotional. Example, I haven't cried in front of anyone in six years, pretty much lost all strong outward emotions after I hit puberty... At least, when I'm around people. Those people point it out too. My own parents are under the impression that I don't care strongly about anything.
Using common logic, he obviously likes you... Likes hanging out with you... The thing is, feelings don't usually transfer into words with us... I might think I'm being open, but to other people, they just expect more...

Have you ever discussed feelings with him? How long has this situation been more than hook ups?

 

[Yuky]

~

I think your'e getting ntp version of gratitude. Which is to say none.
I ran across an entp forum abit ago where they talked about how if they were asked to do something they would do it willingly if they felt the other person deserved it. It's about honor. I feel the same way.
I'll do things for people that I consider honorable just because I like that they exist.

I have to remind myself that that's not the way most people see it.

As for his not answering your questions, my guess it that's an intp thing too.
I really despise answering those kinds of direct questions.
Maybe we feel like it's too much of a giveaway, it's hard to say.
My experience has been that infjs really like getting to know people this way, and it's the main reason I think that intp/infj couples don't naturally work well.

When he told you he doesn't understand what you want, he may have meant it literally. He may want to accommodate your needs but honestly I don't feel I have a very good read on this guy.
Yes it is scary that he didn't show any sort of compassion in response to what you told him.

When I care about someone I try to understand them as best I can.
This guy isn't trying.

 

[Pifanjr]

When he told you he doesn't understand what you want, he may have meant it literally.

When I care about someone I try to understand them as best I can.
This guy isn't trying.

I agree with both of these statements. I'm guessing the guy isn't that old and this is his first (serious) relationship?

I don't ask him how he's feeling too frequently and instead will ask him questions about his interests or ask for his opinion about things, because that seems to be more in line with where he's at at any given time, but it is SO HARD to feel any sort of intimacy with him because he usually blows off my questions and just answers with "nothing" or "I don't know" etc

It's quite possible he doesn't realize you're trying to start a conversation. Giving him several options might trigger him to start actually thinking about it. For example, if you ask his opinion, give yours and an opinion someone else has (either someone you know or a hypothetical one, it doesn't matter) and ask him if he agrees with either. If he still blows you off, just tell him directly you're trying to initiate conversation and request that he thinks about it and shares his thought process with you.

He didn't do anything for me because it's not his thing and it's not a big deal.
And I preceded all this by telling him that I just wanted to be kind to him and don't expect anything from him and I know that he loves me in his own way and I feel that and it's important to me. And that I really meant it, which I did.

Apparently, you were wrong though. You did want something from him, some gratitude. Not wanting to be taken for granted is completely normal (I would even say healthy) in a relationship, but if you told him you didn't expect anything, he will assume you have thought this through and it is true. So I doubt he will see a problem with his lack of gratitude. You'll have to explain to him that, although you said you didn't expect anything back, you realized you were wrong. You realized that you want some expression of gratitude.

I basically told him that like.....I know that he shows me he loves me by spending time with me and sharing his life with me, and I am so grateful for those things and try to show him I love him that way as well, and I'll also do things like get him some really fucking nice presents because I want to and walk over to his place in the snow with gatorade and medicine at 3:00am because he's sick and spend time I should use more responsibly with him because I love being with him, and he basically...acts like those are completely mundane actions on my part?

Again, you tell him that you understand that he's showing he loves you by spending time with you and sharing his life with you, but then become upset that he isn't showing his gratitude. Apparently, you need him to show you he cares in a different way (see also the love languages Lonewaer mentioned).

And I barely bring up "serious" (ie emotional) things because I know that's a lot for him, but when I do, he basically either literally or figuratively sends me like...a comforting emoji and doesn't even fucking contribute? And I don't expect him to have this whole slew of emotions or even thoughts to express, but I would appreciate like three words recognizing that this is important to me and he gives a fuck.

I keep being really fucking vulnerable in front of him and I literally have no clue what he thinks ever and it makes me feel shitty.
And then he looked at me and said something to the extent of "I don't understand what you want," or "What do you want me to do"
and that scared the fuck out of me, because I thought I was being pretty clear and not at all unreasonable.

I agree that you're not unreasonable, but you might not have been clear. From what you've shared here it seems this particular INTP hasn't realized fully other people have different needs than he does. He literally doesn't understand what you want. For you it might be completely obvious that you need to show gratitude when someone does something for you and that you should try to comfort/support someone if they bring up serious emotions, but he might not realize that that is something that needs to be done. Or he doesn't know how to do it.

It might be hard to wrap your head around the fact that he doesn't understand what you consider basic, obvious social conventions that everyone should know, but I think this stuff is something he's just very inexperienced with and you'll have to explain it to him. And because he's an INTP, he'll probably ask why on everything and make this a lot more complicated than you might think it needs to be, asking about things that should be obvious according to you, but try to stick with it and explain even the things that seem trivial to you, without resorting to things like "that's just how it is". If you come to someone you don't know how to explain, just make it clear to him that even though you might not be able to explain it, your feelings are still there and can't just be dismissed because he can't make sense of why they're there.

So I'm pretty sure he's forreal. But I guess I can't tell if he's just not trying hard enough or if there's major shit I'm missing. (probably both.) I'm trying really hard to be patient and to love him like he wants to be loved

Two final comments. One, ask him how he views your relationship, because you don't seem really sure where your relationship is right now. Two, don't forget that you're important in this relationship too, your feelings matter too. It's admirable you want to love him like he wants to be loved, but you deserve the same thing and you'll have to find something that is satisfying to both of you.

 

[Pifanjr]

I just saw this post and I think it illustrates the point I was trying to make well.

Brutal honesty can be a curse.
I make people feel intellectually inferior. Sometimes on purpose, but mostly without even realizing it. I was really sad when my sister told me that I made her feel stupid when I criticized her for something. But that wasn't my intention. I saw a lot of good in what she did, I merely suggested how it could have been improved because I thought that's what most people want. That's what I would have wanted. Praise is useless to me, I'd rather have constructive criticism. I failed to recognize that she just wanted someone to give her positive feedback so I didn't bother praising the obviously good because it was, well, obviously good. And most people want positive feedback, I guess. I think that I learned from that though. So I try to be more careful but I still come across as a dick occasionally.

Sometimes INTPs feel like something doesn't have to be said, because all people involved already know it. INTPs don't like redundancy. However, sometimes INTPs can misjudge that something isn't as obvious for the other person(s).

 

[Primeval]

To echo what has been said previously: If he has ever told you how he feels, he'll never feel the need to say it again unless something changes(gifts qualify here). Other people seem to view relationships(platonic or otherwise) as constantly evolving things with minute levels of difference and nuance. We don't. Relationships are binary solution sets.

You want him to verbalize his feelings. Perhaps you would consider an alternative. He's already telling you these things, you just need to listen. Every time he invites you over, he's saying how much he enjoys being around you. Every time he looks at you, he's telling you how beautiful you are. Every time he touches you, he's explaining how much he desires you. Every time he explains something, he's describing how much he values your mind. In his mind, all this is blatantly obvious. For some reason, we rarely grasp that others don't see it. To us, we're shouting.

 

[Lonewaer]

You want him to verbalize his feelings. Perhaps you would consider an alternative. He's already telling you these things, you just need to listen. Every time he invites you over, he's saying how much he enjoys being around you. Every time he looks at you, he's telling you how beautiful you are. Every time he touches you, he's explaining how much he desires you. Every time he explains something, he's describing how much he values your mind. In his mind, all this is blatantly obvious. For some reason, we rarely grasp that others don't see it. To us, we're shouting.

So much this ^

 

[Flamme et Citron]

Sharing that vulnerable emotional underbelly isn’t something that comes naturally. If he’s anything like me, being comfortable and in touch with his own emotions will take a while. He’s still very young.

I don’t know that INTP really shows gratitude, not in the way you’re expecting. Grand displays of affection and emotion isn’t happening. You’ll need to learn to interpret the subtle signs. Just because something is subtle doesn’t mean there isn’t weight behind it. We can learn to show appreciation in a “normal” way but it’s more that we know that’s what people want to see so we indulge but that’s not how we act naturally. Whether it’s communicated effectively or not, the appreciation is still there. It doesn’t really surprise me he brushed off the big effort you put in your valentine’s present, we’re clueless, especially at that age.

My language of love is physical, so there you go. Paying attention to someone at all is already a sign I like them. Pretty much everyone else is invisible to me. I need my space though. Like a cat. I want you to pet me but too much petting and I’m biting your finger off. When I’m concentrated on something I don’t want anyone to bother me, don’t interupt the INTP when he’s trying to solve a puzzle. I don’t know if the hot and cold behaviour is common with other INTPs, probably a little.

Meaning of intimacy eh? I’ve showed my real personality and they haven’t run away yet.

 

[chanteuse]

@riteofspringroll

I am INFJ who had dated at least two INTPs and am still friends with them.

INTP (guys) are very stable emotionally and thus loyal. If you are looking for someone who would stay, INTP is a good bet. Their heart doesn't wander once it finds a harbor. They leave when the relationship is not good for them and can't be fixed (their logical conclusion). You have to choose your poison. There's no perfect guy. You are not perfect either.

(Romance)
Since you and your INTP are both 20 (right?), you two may have a long way to go before you can truly not be bothered with the pronounced Fe/not yet mature Ti and very strong Ti/inferior Fe. The fortunate ones stick to the process (lots of pain) to enjoy the fruits of being older and more mature later. When INFJ and INTP are mature in balancing and being comfortable in their functions, there's very little conflict in getting along. It's your call to see how you want to handle your relationship with your INTP. If you made a decision to stay, you will have to mature faster (his Ti will help your Ti to grow) and be accommodating to his slower personal growth (Fe being his inferior function while Ti is your ter).


(Friendship)
If you decide not to continue the romance, do your best to be civil and reasonable to not burn his good grace. INTPs are great and loyal friends (if they value you). Every time I had personal crisis or something I want answers to, I called my INTP ex. He's always there to help me (by telling me unvarnished truth). BTW, INTPs are self motivating and highly independent. Friendship with INTP is typically one sided, too. I need my INTP ex more than he needs me; at least on the surface. I at times do want to help him in any way possible but he never needs my help. As an INFJ you need to accept the fact that INTP doesn't need help and just be happy that he treats you as a friend to help you when you are in need.

Best wishes and hope you work it out.

 

[LostScrew]

I'll do things for people that I consider honorable just because I like that they exist.

Same. If I tried to voice my feelings towards someone I just liked or enjoyed being in the presence of, it would probably sound something like "Hey! I don't want you die. Usually, I am mostly indifferent to such an event happening or not happening towards someone else, but when it comes to you I'm pretty partial. You're a pretty cool thing and I'd hate if you'd stop being."

Doesn't sound very good, even if it's technically a pretty accurate way of describing it...