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What's the difference between an INTP with well developed Ne and an ENTP with a well developed Ti function? Several times I've questioned it, and even a long discussion with an INTP who's exceptionally good at typing and knows me better than I do can't resolve it.

Now, a little about me without hijacking the thread: I enjoy conversations, I verbally and mentally spar and I enjoy it, even when I'm getting angry. I take a long time to form opinions and frequently second-guess myself but once I do, I am vocal about it, though I'm always open to something that will change my mind - if it's good enough. My head's in the clouds. I tend to get bored with things easily and drop them, but I crave security and familiarity. I have no issues expressing my feelings and have a knack for understanding how people work, though this goes wrong as soon as I care about them most of the time. People often bore me. Those that don't I talk to for hours on end and don't leave alone, I find them so interesting. At parties I have a conflict between wanting everyone to know that I'm an individual and know lots of things, and finding people dull and uncomfortable. Parties leave me uncomfortable in my own skin. Feelings do, too. If I become stressed and rant at people, express too much of myself, or otherwise indulge in emotions where people can hear me, I berate myself and feel awful for it, but I can't help it. I make logical decisions but consider my emotional well-being to be a factor worth taking into consideration when I make a decision.
Anything else, just ask.

So tell me - what's the difference? And could you, from that, tell me?
 

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What's the difference between an INTP with well developed Ne and an ENTP with a well developed Ti function? Several times I've questioned it, and even a long discussion with an INTP who's exceptionally good at typing and knows me better than I do can't resolve it.

Now, a little about me without hijacking the thread: I enjoy conversations, I verbally and mentally spar and I enjoy it, even when I'm getting angry. I take a long time to form opinions and frequently second-guess myself but once I do, I am vocal about it, though I'm always open to something that will change my mind - if it's good enough. My head's in the clouds. I tend to get bored with things easily and drop them, but I crave security and familiarity. I have no issues expressing my feelings and have a knack for understanding how people work, though this goes wrong as soon as I care about them most of the time. People often bore me. Those that don't I talk to for hours on end and don't leave alone, I find them so interesting. At parties I have a conflict between wanting everyone to know that I'm an individual and know lots of things, and finding people dull and uncomfortable. Parties leave me uncomfortable in my own skin. Feelings do, too. If I become stressed and rant at people, express too much of myself, or otherwise indulge in emotions where people can hear me, I berate myself and feel awful for it, but I can't help it. I make logical decisions but consider my emotional well-being to be a factor worth taking into consideration when I make a decision.
Anything else, just ask.

So tell me - what's the difference? And could you, from that, tell me?
Hmm a good question and one that I have, myself considered.. The thing that sold me, was the fact that I definitely gain energy from being around people.. I become quite loud, huge smile on my face and very gregarious around people. im not so worried about exposing things about myself.. Because I simply wont! I will only tell people what I want them to know and usually spend the whole time exploring others (Im a people watcher and find it fascinating how people work and their mindsets). Also, I have heard other ENTPs describe themselves in a similar light.

In my experience, INTPs are much more detail orientated and specific than ENTPs.. I dont mean in the way that sensors are detailed orientated, I mean INTPs are able to see errors almost instantly. They also find it difficult, if not impossible to point it out to you lol. INTPs and ENTPs are both NTs and share a few commonalities, but they are usually very different in person and interests!
 

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I'm not sure I'm an expert at typing people, but I have 2 ex-boyfriends, my current roommate, and a girlfriend who all scored ENTP on the test. Apparently I like ENTPs. The major and most important difference that I've noticed between the two types is this: an INTP's universe is in their minds and imagination the size of king kong and constant ruthless analysis are our mainstays. An ENTP's universe is, just that, the universe. They're exceptionally good at problem solving (like an INTP) but the problem isn't solved until the job is done. They also have a constant need to either be improving or taking apart something, whereas an INTP doesn't give a damn if the toaster is broken (we could fix it if we really wanted to).

ENTPs also have a tendency to say all the sharp, witty, cruel, funny things that an INTP thinks but doesn't say.
 

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I'm very close to being an ambivert, and in fact I suspect that if I didn't suffer from bipolar (type 2) related depression I'd probably be more ENTP. I test INTP now, but there are times that I get very energized from socializing. I ultimately need my veg time, however.

The different weighting of Ne vs. Ti is simply too subtle in most INTP's and ENTP's for you to successfully differentiate it - both traits are VERY strong in both types, and they also work too much in conjunction with each other. Asking whether someone's thinking is more indicative of being Ti-Ne versus Ne-Ti is like the chicken-egg scenario.

It really does come down to where you ultimately recharge your batteries. In other words, if you feel tired or mentally drained, do you seek out people to socialize with in order to lose that fatigue, or do you retreat into your favorite, solitary corner and recharge in solitude.

ENTP's are going to tend to be more dynamic social personalities than INTP's. While not every ENTP will be this way, you'll definitely have some "life of the party" types who are more demonstrative, crack-ups which would be a rarity for an INTP. The stereotypical INTP won't seem as confident socially as the stereotypical ENTP.

That said, I've heard ENTP's on this forum say that they feel more introverted than other "E's", which makes sense because what they mean is that sometimes Ne-Ti needs some time alone to fly along and let ideas blossom without the interruptions that come from social interaction.

Anyway, this is best thought of as a difference of degree rather than kind . . . but then it should be anyway because MBTI is just talking about preferences rather than absolutes, right?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Aye, I am thinking that over time I've come closer to the E side of the spectrum as I find more people and groups I can relate to. When it comes down to it I'll generally prefer to sulk by myself (and if I'm particularly upset, I can't force myself to speak full stop, no matter how much I want to tell the other person I'm not angry at them) and I prefer a smaller group. I tend to live in my own head and have a terrible attention span for that reason.

On the other hand I love attention for things that are important to me, greatly appreciate feedback, partially because it's the best sort of attention someone can receive - honest, thoughtful and helpful. I'm loud and talkative and quite open and honest. I tend to say what I think in most cases, and can have trouble shutting up. I tend to be able to say what people need or want to hear without really thinking about it. People ask me for advice since I can think of numerous tailored solutions they might not have thought of, or back up something they weren't sure of. I also have little problem expressing myself as you may be able to see, and have a strong preference for language over mathematics (though I like the latter because I can't do it, it's a nice challenge, if frustrating).

Something both INTP and ENTP is that I have limited patience for people. People interest me but I have absolutely no time for people who have no desire to learn, it's as simple as that. I can be quite rude, I'll admit.

The thing is, I'm a writer. I have ridiculously detailed worlds for my works, which I dwell on most of the time - adding to, altering, just 'watching'. I feed into it with external stimuli or questions of what would happen, logically, if I did this. I think without that, I wouldn't retreat inside half as much and would rely entirely on my surroundings to keep myself entertained, rather than just using it to feed into my worlds or less commonly playing about with it when I'm bored. I tend to entertain myself by absurd extrapolations and relations between objects, just silliness really. 'What if that bug were as big as I were' sort of nonsense, but ultimately I'm oblivious.

I go back and forth. In good moods I tend towards ENTP, in bad towards INTP - which probably means I'm an INTP, since my stress-recharge state is solitary. That said when I'm having an anxiety attack I always, always seek people out, if just to have them nearby without talking, and that calms me down.
 

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Curious to know this as well....MBTI gives me INTP, but can relate to ENTP as well....is there a dealbreaker so to speak that definitely makes one more than the other?
 

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Curious to know this as well....MBTI gives me INTP, but can relate to ENTP as well....is there a dealbreaker so to speak that definitely makes one more than the other?
Easiest way to tell is definitely where you pull your energy from - internal thought or external socializing. I summed it up for myself in this way - if you need to have some peace and quiet alone before you go out, your introverted. If you can go out at 5pm, and stay out until 6am without once thinking - I need to get away - you're extroverted.

I've noticed a lot of people referring to enjoying "being alone" while being E's, and I's who love socializing and having this cause a rift of their type. But just because either likes to do what the other is known for doesn't mean you're one or the other. I love to hang out, and feel that if I don't find a medium to test my little theories internally through observation (being around people) I start to feel worse than if I was around people all day.

What it boils down to though is where you draw your energy - internally or externally.
 

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INTPs also have a tendency to say all the sharp, witty, cruel, funny things that an INTP thinks but doesn't say.
Heh.... Yeah. :wink:

Well, there's a different process between NeTi vs TiNe.... NeTi is always exploring things, using Ti to guide the exploration, the goal is the exploration, whereas TiNe is cobbling together logical frames of reference using intuition to figure out steps.

There's usually a preference in terms of whether the person focuses/acts externally vs internally.

I tend to be more Ne intensive nowadays rather than focusing on Ti nuances all the time, as I used to; but I'm still focused on building those mental maps. INTP Ne'ers tend to to build inclusive maps, meant to somehow fit everything under broad categories; the Ti-intensives tend to focus more on the detailed list of steps and gettin all the details right (and can come across as exclusive rather than inclusive). But there's still a focus on modeling and mapping, and stepping back to observe rather than necessarily engage, as the first instinct.
 

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I think many of us find ourselves in this confusion ;)

If you can't figure out your top two functions, maybe you can figure out which you suck more at: Fe or Si?
Some of what you wrote makes you sound less comfortable with Fe. Particularly the feeling bad for letting too much of yourself out.

One other thing I've noticed is ENTPs are more likely to try to bring their ideas to life (think mad scientist, entrepreneurs, etc) INTPs tend to settle for the ideas being in our heads. I had an ENTP roommate and his 'experiments' would scare me sometimes. (Weak Si - means inability to sense the danger, strong Ne wanting to see what happens) Ne, being extroverted, wants to effect the real world. Strong Ti puts a damper on this.
 

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Are you naturally quicker at brainstorming new ideas(Ne dom) or spotting logical inconsistencies(Ti dom)?

Also keep in mind:
Extraverts can still find people they dislike tiring.
Extraverts with social anxiety can seem introverted.
That isn't helpful though. I can brainstorm very easily (people get after me for it, as I will start spouting things off when they don't want me too) - and I can spot logical inconsistencies very easily (again, people get after me for it when I challenge the flaws in their reasoning. At least, the feelers do).

The thing that sold me, was the fact that I definitely gain energy from being around people.. I become quite loud, huge smile on my face and very gregarious around people. im not so worried about exposing things about myself.. Because I simply wont! I will only tell people what I want them to know... INTPs are able to see errors almost instantly. They also find it difficult, if not impossible to point it out to you lol. INTPs and ENTPs are both NTs and share a few commonalities, but they are usually very different in person and interests!
This makes sense to me. While I need a great deal of alone time, I get stressed if I am isolated from people. I get stressed if there is no one in the house, even. In truth, my preference is for there to be someone in the house but -not- in the same room as me (as I like to work alone, but be alone). In a group of people, if there is no one of interest to talk to, I am often content just to find a plce to sit and observe/people watch - and this will recharge me. While I do quickly see error, espeically in logic or facts, I will point it out if a) the situation allows for it and b) its a significant enough error to warrant it.

I summed it up for myself in this way - if you need to have some peace and quiet alone before you go out, your introverted. If you can go out at 5pm, and stay out until 6am without once thinking - I need to get away - you're extroverted.
I only know a very few extroverts, personally, who can carry off the all nighter feat and actually be recharged. Most extroverts have prefereces for the type and duration of social interaction they like best. Group, close friend, party, intimate chat, etc. Even extroverts will need breaks, and may need to be alone before hand.

One other thing I've noticed is ENTPs are more likely to try to bring their ideas to life (think mad scientist, entrepreneurs, etc) INTPs tend to settle for the ideas being in our heads. I had an ENTP roommate and his 'experiments' would scare me sometimes. (Weak Si - means inability to sense the danger, strong Ne wanting to see what happens) Ne, being extroverted, wants to effect the real world. Strong Ti puts a damper on this.
This makes a good deal of sense. I always have quite a number of projects in the works (some of which even make it to fruition). And I love experimenting. Like the time I decided to attempt boiling an egg in the microwave to see what happened....
 

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Discussion Starter #13
All these explanations, I still fit either. The logical framework is secondary to the exploration of concepts but, equally, it's not that people tire me (though they do) but that part of me feels disconnected if I speak with people too long, a classic introvert trait. I only feel myself when I'm alone, really, otherwise I feel increasingly dissociated no matter how much fun I'm having. I have no social anxiety, I learned not to care if people judge me.

While I have the INTP trait of being very particular about word usage and so forth, equally I have the ENTP trait of preferring the general idea and finding details and categoric distinctions frustrating, preferring to have many ideas rather than immediately commit them to some system, internal or external, though I do have a knack for pattern recognition and spotting differences where others might see similarities, and similarities between totally different things.

My thinking vs. doing is balanced. I have so many ideas I can't possibly test them all, but increasingly I'll sketch something out, poke it, take it apart... I've always taken stuff apart and sometimes it's necessary, others not. I start and drop projects at a rate of knots. I have a need for people to see and understand my internal worlds - it's why I'm a writer, not just a dreamer. I actively seek publishing.

Like the previous poster I also grow anxious when alone, and also prefer to have someone in the house who otherwise leaves me alone most of the time. I like to be able to quickly ask someone a question or pester them, but equally, I'd rather they leave me alone for the most part. I enjoy the sounds of people living around me, particularly my family. When I have anxiety attacks I need company, but I hate people being close to me for focusing on me, I just need the security of someone present, maybe to distract me because my own head is obviously the source of the problem. That's rare though. Stress as opposed to my inherited trait of having anxiety attacks had me clam up. I can't speak if I want to, let alone feel a great need to blow off steam. I shell off like a little bivalve and refuse to come out for any reason whatsoever until I feel better.

I'm very vocal with frustration, but genuine stress and sadness has my grumpy and unsociable even if people are just trying to help.

An anecdote to centre it - with my other half, I rarely see, when I do I constantly ping between immense joy that we're together, and a great deal of stress as if my individuality is being compromised by being around someone who knows me so well, someone I rely on and am relied upon. I'm torn between this immense need to be totally isolated and alone and thus empowered and untouchable, and to share my ideas with people, to get feedback and appreciation. That I need appreciation angers me - it's like a weakness. The feedback is purely a logical thing, another perspective, so this doesn't bother me so much.
 

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If you get into a mental sparring match with INTP/ENTP, the ENTP is far more likely to win. In a sparring match, the time you have to respond is limited and INTP's need time to process. An ENTP is more likely to have already formed his opinion and can throw things off of the cuff effortlessly.

Mind you, ENTP's operate better with processing time, but without it, they can function. As an INTP, in a mental sparring match, if I put too much stress on the fact that I MUST respond, every part of me freezes and goes silent. I am then left to just stand there (mind you, I have the perfect comeback to every point made 5-10 minutes later and I want to hit myself for not seeing it sooner).

It is not about how strong the Ne/Ti is, but which order the brain utilizes them that counts in this situation. Under stress, people go to what they do best. An ENTP will utilize Ne to improvise a response, and an INTP will instantly flip to Ti by nature, and Ti will be unable to provide a comeback to a conversation which is of a more Ne nature. It will simply give 'Not enough information provided' message, and quiet down.
 

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If you get into a mental sparring match with INTP/ENTP, the ENTP is far more likely to win. In a sparring match, the time you have to respond is limited and INTP's need time to process. An ENTP is more likely to have already formed his opinion and can throw things off of the cuff effortlessly.
This makes sense, albeit, I would throw in that even without a prior formed opinion - an ENTP can still respond quickly. The speed can indeed be based off prior formed opinions, or having thought out similar arguments in the past (for me, I frequently go over both sides of an argument I am likely to face to test for holes and gain familiarity with it, so in this way I am usually prepared). However, there is also a speed boost from the comfort of making connections between either known facts, or connections theorized between facts as the conversation ensues. I have often found myself in conversations, where the topic involved something I had minimal (or no) knowledge of, and managed to hold my own. I will even go so far as to argue/debate, brainstorm, or theorize on the topic, springboarding off of the oter persons cues. If I have to ask a question I will make it a technical one, and rarely let on that it is a completely alien field. (I use this tactic to 'bluff' my way into many interesting conversations, as I love a good discussion, and then I will research the topic once I get home for the next time I meet the person). Also, while it takes a good deal of time/research for me to form my final opinion on a matter, I can come up with quick evaluations or opinions on almost any topic very easily.

(I participated in the Model UN almost ten years ago, representing Algeria - and it was important there to respond quickly to other groups papers and speeches as we only had a short amount of time to network with other nations and present our own speeches and ideas. Not only that, but every opinion had to be from Algeria's viewpoint, extrapolated from what we knew of the country.

These were not preformed opinions, or even my own opinions - but I could make them up very quickly and convincingly.

I experience belated comebacks as well though, albeit it seems to be a lesser factor. I have no problem defending my position, but I almost always will have something come to mind after a debate that I should have said or used as an example that may have won the argument more efficiently.

I have no problem with having to respond, but when I cannot respond/do not get enough time to respond I get anxious or flustered. (Especially if I am effectively 'debating in tandem' with someone else, and that someone else using feelings more than facts, I have to control my urge to interupt every time they make an argument).
 

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To describe the differences, I'm going to use a metaphor. Think of the plant as being an idea, the roots being its depth of logical development, the height as being its sensitivity to the feelings of others, and the amount of water it drinks as being indicative of its reliance on past data to come to a conclusion. Also, think of sunlight as being the outside world, and vines as being a train of thought.

ENTP: Most of the time is spent growing new plants. The plants are spread with vines, which drop down onto a suitable spot and begin to take root. Once this happens, the roots develop enough to keep the plant alive, and then, it grows very tall in order to take in as much sunlight as it possibly can, and to extend the reach of its vines. As the plant grows, its vines spread out ever further, and even more suitable growing places are found, repeating the process ad nauseum. This plant doesn't take in very much water, as its nature is dispersive, not stable; it does not use its energy rooting itself down, when its energy is better served covering as much ground as possible.

INTP: Most of the time is spent growing roots. The new plants arise as vines spread underground, and move upward when the roots are strong enough to anchor the plant to the ground. The exploration is still there, but it takes place mainly through the root system, which delves as deeply as it can into the ground to solidify its position. Once there, in order to strengthen the plant further, it drinks in quite a bit of water, which helps fuel the root system to delve even deeper. The plant, due to its desire to remain anchored to the ground, does not grow very tall; it prefers the stability of its root system over absorbing sunlight.
 

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Easiest way to tell is definitely where you pull your energy from - internal thought or external socializing. I summed it up for myself in this way - if you need to have some peace and quiet alone before you go out, your introverted. If you can go out at 5pm, and stay out until 6am without once thinking - I need to get away - you're extroverted.

I've noticed a lot of people referring to enjoying "being alone" while being E's, and I's who love socializing and having this cause a rift of their type. But just because either likes to do what the other is known for doesn't mean you're one or the other. I love to hang out, and feel that if I don't find a medium to test my little theories internally through observation (being around people) I start to feel worse than if I was around people all day.

What it boils down to though is where you draw your energy - internally or externally.
i am find that i swing in either direction depending on the current shape of my ego... which might sound ridicules, but sometimes my self esteem takes the form of self confidence and i get a lot of energy from people, and sometimes it takes the form of self-comfort and i get a lot of energy from being alone. personally i often find that it takes one person i can draw energy from (often NFs) to get me going into an E period where i draw energy from everyone else.

this is one of the many reasons the Keirsey temprement theory and this definition of E/I dimension sucks so much as pin pointing personality types.
 

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Assuming the roots are logical development, height is sensitivity, and water is past data - my plants would be short, deep rooted, and drowned. I rarely pay attention to the feelings of the other party, except as a datum to be used for constructed pathos. (It's a fun challenge to make arguments that will be emotionally persuasive to feelers). I take in a great deal of data (to the point where friends, families, and aquaintances think I need to stop wasting my time doing research to argue with them).

While I am perfectly comfortable arguing a topic I know nothing about, one of my joys in life is the pursuit of knowledge. If I have a question, I find the answer. If I hold a political opinion or am interested in a political assertion, I go look up the supporting facts (all of them, not the media soundbytes. I'll read genetic studies and the house bills, etc). I'll study greek etymology, flood geology, Kantian philosophy, subduction, folklore, or any other topic that comes up in either my questions, or in former arguments, or plain curiosity, so that a) I know the facts behind the subject supporting and against, and b) I will have facts and sources to cite next time I debate the topic. I'm ok winging it once, but not ok winging if it is going to be a long term debate.

Also, to what outside world are you refering too? The outside world as the details of the environment? (Which I am oblivious to in an argument, and indeed, in general unless I am basking in the scenery). The outside world as the universe (which I care about). Or the outside world as a collection of things to be observed (Which I do pay attention to, but not during arguments. Usually I do this when people watching)? Or, the outside world as in the 'scene' - all the players of a situation and their roles (which I am much more attune to, even when burying my head in a book, I tend to be hyper aware that the girl who just entered the room is interested in the boy over by the sink, or that the person threatening to shut down my project is bluffing, or how I need to act to get someone to respond a specific way, or how sucessful a venture is likely to be depending on who took on what role, or who needs to do what to tweak the balance just enough to save a failing project, etc) <-- That I do seem to be good at.

I do care about the truth of the argument. I'll only debate as sport with an individual, but in a group, if there is a known fact being taught that is incorrect, I'll jump in as soon as it is appropriate to correct it/bring things back on course. In these areas I do become slightly more in tune with the environment, as I have to know when it's all right to speak, make sure I am not stepping on anyone's toes, etc - but I've only started working on this since I have been focusing on treating others with respect more - not because it comes naturally to my personality.

I can agree with the vision of many vines/trains of thought bringing in new ideas - but these would either come from watered roots, or from spurts of brainstorming which is an introverted thinking process (not from the environment. I do get train of thought from the environment when I am observing the environment to daydream, but that's completely different from the part of my mind I use in debates/discussions).

So, according to your metaphor, I would fall closer to an INTP. (That would be cool, actually. Blaise Pascal was supposedly an INTP, and Descartes too, and they are my two favorite philosophers).
 

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What's the difference between an INTP with well developed Ne and an ENTP with a well developed Ti function?
One is an extrovert and they will act extroverted most the time, and actively seek out opportunities to show off and demonstrate their talents most the time. They do this in order to generate social status for themselves, because they draw energy from other people and the external environment. They are not content to stay at home in their room all day unless something very important requires them to do so - otherwise, they much prefer to be out and about, socializing and getting things done, being progressive and active in the world.

The other is not. They will not, generally speaking, actively seek out opportunities to express themselves all the time. When found out in public, they are either with a small group of close-knit friends they trust, or they are running errands, avoiding social interaction as much as possible. They will only act extroverted around other people who they feel comfortable around, but when left alone they will become quiet and secluded, and this is their 'default' state most of the time.
 

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I am very content to stay in my room all day (and usually do) - but need a recharge from social environments every so often. I don't actually recharge from time alone (although I do destress, and it doesn't drain me unless its been a few days without seeing people). I do activley seek out opportunities to express myself (and look forward to it/feel anxious if I do not get an opportunity too), yet I'll often go a week without stepping foot outside.

When I am in public, I prefer larger groups or one-on-one. Juggling a small group of friends, unless the mix of personalities is right, or they are a bit older or younger than me, can be difficult or stressful and I will act introverted. One on one interactions are my favorite, but I also am fond of groups of about 8-20.

Around strangers, I will be either gregarious and open, or introverted, depending on the situation. When dealing with strangers one on one, I am open/inviting and interested in conversation. However, if there is another friend with me who is an extrovert, I will often fall back into a more introverted/observer capacity.

I am quite comfortable around strangers, so long as they do not trigger any warning signals with their comments or actions in an initial conversation which would warn me that they are just going to trap me in five minutes of useless small talk and then move on, or otherwise trigger danger signals. I can be quite extroverted around people I dislike immensly though - in fact, even moreso, if there is a conflict or debate involved.

Yet, I do retreat to my room, become secluded (even shutting people out) and appreciate my quiet time and activities. I dislike to work on projects with other people. This is not because people are involved, its because people rarely meet my expectations when it comes to academic or project taks. In fact, I had a group once where everyone was competant in the different areas, and I was able to delegate freely without fear for the first time in my life. The project was wonderful to work on, and I loved having the comaderie. Likewise, even projects that have taken a hit on result have still been fun with the right group. Unfortunately, for most projects the compromise in substandard product isn't worth the comfort and pleasure of having other people on board.

<---Perhaps the question should not focus on what an extreme INTP or ENTP, or extreme I/E look like, but how to differentiate the nuances in the middle.-->
 
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