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I'm an INTP, or ad least I've typed myself as one. I believe all the cognitive functions fit or so I think. Lately I have been entertaining the possibility that I am an INTJ, and I have admittedly found a lot of similarities. Now this may not be definitive but my speech doesn't seem to fit a Ti/NE thought process. I have been noticing a lot of similarities in my speech with my female INTJ friend. One commonality is that she loves to make assertive confident statements founded on nothing but assumptions and will often go " Ha! I was right." When it turns out that she was correct. I have actually caught myself doing this from time to time. I will usually make a statement that I'm fairly sure I can back up and when I'm questioned about it, I will make an on the fly argument as to why the statement is true. I'll place an apple in the air and then suddenly start making a tree. I had the materials for the tree all along and I knew that, but it seems that for for some unknown reason I felt that the apple needed to be placed there beforehand. Now I understand this could be Si telling me I know and therefore I am safe in making the statement but I have on occasion done this on topics I know close to little about and make assertions founded on nothing but bits and pieces of information I have in the back of my head. Once we are grounded at a common point for discussion however, is where my speech tends to differentiate from hers. She will continue to make assertions, test which ones I believe and which ones I don't and then back up what I don't believe and leave what I don't. In her mind she has already won that point. I however tend to start giving articles of empirical evidence to back up my wild assertion often getting lost on tangents because I sidetracked to explain a subtopic of the original topic so as to shed better light on my point. We both end up sending extremely large amounts of text either way. Is it possible for speech patterns to be so similar between people of the different types or is this simply an example of a similarity between INTP and INTJ?

I will also give you another example.

When speaking with my ENFP friend we we're discussing a situation of a person that we know. Their mother is dying of leukemia and he was telling me how has no idea what it was going to do to the family. This kind of open ended statement frustrates me to no end. So I tried to give an explanation as to what will most likely happen. " There aren't really that many things that can happen, in fact there's only about three. What will probably happen is the first and most likely. person A is emotionally compromised as is and as such will not be able to handle his mother dying. He will then begin to estrange himself with person B because person B is his sister and will only remind him of her. Person C will at this point simply sit in the background because he has no real attachment to the mother and therefore has no real claim in this situation. There is a second possibility, but it is highly unlikely. Person A and B might be drawn together by the death of a loved one and may be able to emotionally support another through the ordeal as a result. Person C will then support whatever person B does because, again, he has no stake in this matter. Their is also the third possibility which is the most unlikely, wherein the cancer doesn't kill the mother and they all live happily ever after. Judging from how advanced the cancer is at this point though, we both know the likelihood of that happening." I felt it would be most accurate giving real source material so I gave a conversation demonstrating these speech patterns. I of course paraphrased and compressed it but this is the gist of my statement.

Does this sound like Ne giving possibilities as to how things would turn out and then Ti organizing them. Or does this sound like Ni giving possibilities and Te presenting them in a logical manner?

This also my first post on this forum so hello to all.
 
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First, welcome to the forum.

Second, I don't think that we can provide an easy answer to that. While INTPs may (in general) speak differently and think differently than INTJs, there are times when we organize our thoughts using Te. Te (as you probably know already) tends to be also fairly strong in INTPs.

Your pattern strikes me as more of an Ne-driven possibility generator, rather than Ni. You recognized more than one possibility and although you didn't seem to be too interested in going too far into the discussion, you left different ones open.

My two cents, anyway. :)
 

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Thanks for the welcome.
 

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Now I can see where you would get Te, my speech process does at times tend to reflect similarities in a certain ESTJ I know. I'm not too sure how far deep these run however. And just for posterities sake, that is something I didn't know. I actually assumed most INTP's have strangely abundant Ni due to my daydreams that drag me so far out of reality that I need to be shaken in order to get my attention. Just to entertain the thought, no I don't have my books and DVDs organized in alphabetic order. I do however have a self prescribed daily page organization, so that I can fast track my way through Calculus, if that's any indication.

I'm open to the possibility of it being Ne (which ironically is a highly Ne statement). I do share similarities between him in terms of speech. The only difference being I want to order the ideas in order of rationality and likelihood and he wants to ride Unicorns into the sunset. I have actually met an ENTP however and he seems to have drastically different speech from me. He comes up with ideas out of the blue blurting out random ideas and topics. He was actually quite good at keeping a conversation going. I had a tendency to blurt out random questions more often than not though such as "If money is in constant circulation, why do we need printing presses?". That particular Gem got me quite the strange stare from my ENFP. My mental musings always have a tendency to stay in one place and drift from topic to topic as I complete each thought. My main problem is it doesn't seem sporadic enough to be Ne. Whenever I take Cog tests I always score Ti, Ni, Ne, Te. It has always bewildered me how I could get those results being an INTP. This is what led to me initially considering the possibility of INTJ. Is this a common phenomena amongst INTPs?
 

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My guess would be that you're INTP. Your INTJ friend might also be INTP. I don't think INTJs would express opinions based on assumptions. That's something /I/ usually do, and the intj is not a fan of it.

I mean if you look at the functions, it makes sense.

Ti Ne Si Fe - makes thoughts based on assumptions and expresses them. We don't mind being wrong.
Ni Te Fi Se - Is very concrete on the outside and will not express a Ni conclusion unless it's supported by facts. This type doesn't like to be wrong.
 
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I guess that makes sense, although I'm quite sure about my INTJ. Let me be more specific. She'll argue about objective facts, she'll never give give her opinion on ANYTHING. Basically if I asked her to solve a math problem, she'll be fine. But if I asked her to give me an opinion on a movie or critique something, she shuts down faster than the Whitehouse after a bomb threat. By your description it does make sense though. Basically she doesn't like to give thoughts on subjects that are open to interpretation. By her definition her opinion could be wrong or poorly developed and, just as you said, she's afraid of being wrong. She has told me as much.
 

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It is also possible that, if you are INTP, you just don't have a strong preference for P over J (likewise for INTJ)-- I find, in myself at least, that because I don't have such a strong preference (P over J, that is), I am often able function with both Ti and Te and Ne and Ni. I suppose that if one were to be caught between two such dichotomies, that you could have a person who exhibits a strange mixture of cognitive functions.
 

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My two cents: you sound like an INTP. My INTP friends are all somehow... verbose, as they love to analyze stuff and explain it to me. I got lots and lots of Ti-Ne-Si vibes in your text.

Your experience with ENTP is also familiar to me, the way they talk can be bewildering in both its amount and randomness. It makes sense if you are INTP, your first function is Ti and second is Ne, implying that you might be more prone considering possibilities more or less on topic. The ENTPs I know have this groove of considering possibilities; analyzing them and staying on topic is secondary.

One commonality is that she loves to make assertive confident statements founded on nothing but assumptions and will often go " Ha! I was right." When it turns out that she was correct. [...] Once we are grounded at a common point for discussion however, is where my speech tends to differentiate from hers. She will continue to make assertions, test which ones I believe and which ones I don't and then back up what I don't believe and leave what I don't. [...]
We both end up sending extremely large amounts of text either way. Is it possible for speech patterns to be so similar between people of the different types or is this simply an example of a similarity between INTP and INTJ?

She'll argue about objective facts, she'll never give give her opinion on ANYTHING. Basically if I asked her to solve a math problem, she'll be fine. But if I asked her to give me an opinion on a movie or critique something, she shuts down faster than the Whitehouse after a bomb threat. By your description it does make sense though. Basically she doesn't like to give thoughts on subjects that are open to interpretation. By her definition her opinion could be wrong or poorly developed and, just as you said, she's afraid of being wrong. She has told me as much.

I can't resist pointing out that I am very much the same. Sometimes I wish people just gave me math problems instead of chit-chat and having to talk about my feelings and values, ugh. For some dubious reason we repeat a social dance with my INTP friend where he asks me for my opinions on subjective matters (usually his creative projects like music), I give ten disclaimers as to why my opinions don't matter, and we drift off into philosophical analysis of the topic for an hour or five. I admit, though, that if I have something positive to say, I will say it quite readily, yay Fe!

I have this image, though, that INTPs and INTJs can butt heads with their differing logic, and INTJs express their critical opinions confidently? I
ntuitive leaps, aha-moments, assertions, down-playing and doubting the validity of one's opinions, sending large texts, testing opinions and fear of critique are very INFJ things, but maybe they could be INTJ, too, dunno. :?
 

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It is also possible that, if you are INTP, you just don't have a strong preference for P over J (likewise for INTJ)-- I find, in myself at least, that because I don't have such a strong preference (P over J, that is), I am often able function with both Ti and Te and Ne and Ni. I suppose that if one were to be caught between two such dichotomies, that you could have a person who exhibits a strange mixture of cognitive functions.
This is also something I have been very fuzzy about in terms of MBTI: The Shadow Functions. I have always been annoyed at how they defined them and much preferred Socionics use of all 8 in different functions throughout. I score ILI in Socionics if that helps.

My two cents: you sound like an INTP. My INTP friends are all somehow... verbose, as they love to analyze stuff and explain it to me.
This is something I definitely do. Ive gotten into quite a few arguments with my ENFP and ESTJ because they wanted me to get to the point. This is especially annoying when I'm explaining more complex concepts which I cannot successfully do without going through an excruciating amount of details, ad least in my mind.

I can't resist pointing out that I am very much the same. Sometimes I wish people just gave me math problems instead of chit-chat and having to talk about my feelings and values, ugh. For some dubious reason we repeat a social dance with my INTP friend where he asks me for my opinions on subjective matters (usually his creative projects like music), I give ten disclaimers as to why my opinions don't matter, and we drift off into philosophical analysis of the topic for an hour or five. I admit, though, that if I have something positive to say, I will say it quite readily, yay Fe!
That's actually ironic, seeing as how all the INFJ's I know are all very loudmouthed, headstrong, and opinionated and love to tell me how wrong I am. Both have told me I'm a stupid kid who doesn't know what he's talking about on several occasions. Although they are both around 40 years older than me, so maybe there onto something.......


I have this image, though, that INTPs and INTJs can butt heads with their differing logic, and INTJs express their critical opinions confidently? I
ntuitive leaps, aha-moments, assertions, down-playing and doubting the validity of one's opinions, sending large texts, testing opinions and fear of critique are very INFJ things, but maybe they could be INTJ, too, dunno. :?
I doubt that my INTJ is INFJ. Ironically though when it comes to conversation, we get along swimmingly. When we debate, no matter how opinionated the other is, we never get angry with one another. Things can get heated and still be carefree, something that I have been only able to achieve with my INTJ. When I argue with my ENFP or ESTJ I always know things are going to get heated and that one of them will eventually start attacking me and my objectivity halfway through the debate. We often finish each others sentences and understand each others references so there's no need for either of us to condescend to the other. The way we handle relationships and emotions are actually the place where we really show the differences in our types, although I have no idea whether or not these reactions are indicative of INFJ or INTJ so I could still he wrong. If something is going on that distresses me I basically leave. If its a crisis I'll handle the situation then ill leave. Ill retreat into the back of my mind reciting Chess lines or going over theoretical physical laws in my head. She'll tackle the situation directly but indirectly at the same time. She'll tackle the situation at hand, and still be emotionally engaged but she puts on what I have dubbed the INTJ "Stoic Face of Stoicness". Shes engaged but she wouldn't dare let anybody know it. She then goes back into her cave to mull over her feelings and to sort through them. Very rarely will she ever speak to you during this process. Socially we're miles apart. I have a very small group of friends, totaling at a whopping: 2. I know dozens of other people but I would never consider them friends, as they do not know me well enough to allow them that title in my mind. She on the other hand considers everyone to be her friend and the closer you actually get to her, the less likely she is to actually admit that you are actually friends. Basically she would tell a person that she just met that they are friends, but a friend of 10 years she will never actually verbally acknowledge their relationship. I believe this is due to an underlying need for control that is very much in line with the typical INTJ attitude. Yes I have also considered ENTJ but it didn't fit.
 

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This is also something I have been very fuzzy about in terms of MBTI: The Shadow Functions. I have always been annoyed at how they defined them and much preferred Socionics use of all 8 in different functions throughout. I score ILI in Socionics if that helps.
There is a page at Oddly Developed Types (sorry can't provide a link yet...) that explains about how type dynamics may not be the best way to go about MBTI-- for my part, I think that one can still (and should) think of MBTI in terms of dominant and auxiliary functions, but it explains that shadow functions really are just about "noise" in typing. That being said, I'm not even sure that, for example, Te is a shadow, while Ti may be dominant. I found an assessment that said I significantly use both Ti and Te. That assessment can be found by searching for Keys 2 Cognition. I hope this helps.
 

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I'm an INTP, or ad least I've typed myself as one. I believe all the cognitive functions fit or so I think. Lately I have been entertaining the possibility that I am an INTJ, and I have admittedly found a lot of similarities. Now this may not be definitive but my speech doesn't seem to fit a Ti/NE thought process. I have been noticing a lot of similarities in my speech with my female INTJ friend. One commonality is that she loves to make assertive confident statements founded on nothing but assumptions and will often go " Ha! I was right." When it turns out that she was correct. I have actually caught myself doing this from time to time. I will usually make a statement that I'm fairly sure I can back up and when I'm questioned about it, I will make an on the fly argument as to why the statement is true. I'll place an apple in the air and then suddenly start making a tree. I had the materials for the tree all along and I knew that, but it seems that for for some unknown reason I felt that the apple needed to be placed there beforehand. Now I understand this could be Si telling me I know and therefore I am safe in making the statement but I have on occasion done this on topics I know close to little about and make assertions founded on nothing but bits and pieces of information I have in the back of my head. Once we are grounded at a common point for discussion however, is where my speech tends to differentiate from hers. She will continue to make assertions, test which ones I believe and which ones I don't and then back up what I don't believe and leave what I don't. In her mind she has already won that point. I however tend to start giving articles of empirical evidence to back up my wild assertion often getting lost on tangents because I sidetracked to explain a subtopic of the original topic so as to shed better light on my point. We both end up sending extremely large amounts of text either way. Is it possible for speech patterns to be so similar between people of the different types or is this simply an example of a similarity between INTP and INTJ?

I will also give you another example.

When speaking with my ENFP friend we we're discussing a situation of a person that we know. Their mother is dying of leukemia and he was telling me how has no idea what it was going to do to the family. This kind of open ended statement frustrates me to no end. So I tried to give an explanation as to what will most likely happen. " There aren't really that many things that can happen, in fact there's only about three. What will probably happen is the first and most likely. person A is emotionally compromised as is and as such will not be able to handle his mother dying. He will then begin to estrange himself with person B because person B is his sister and will only remind him of her. Person C will at this point simply sit in the background because he has no real attachment to the mother and therefore has no real claim in this situation. There is a second possibility, but it is highly unlikely. Person A and B might be drawn together by the death of a loved one and may be able to emotionally support another through the ordeal as a result. Person C will then support whatever person B does because, again, he has no stake in this matter. Their is also the third possibility which is the most unlikely, wherein the cancer doesn't kill the mother and they all live happily ever after. Judging from how advanced the cancer is at this point though, we both know the likelihood of that happening." I felt it would be most accurate giving real source material so I gave a conversation demonstrating these speech patterns. I of course paraphrased and compressed it but this is the gist of my statement.

Does this sound like Ne giving possibilities as to how things would turn out and then Ti organizing them. Or does this sound like Ni giving possibilities and Te presenting them in a logical manner?

This also my first post on this forum so hello to all.
I don't think your example fits to any type per say.
I just hope you didn't actually tell them that because it would demonstrate a poor understanding of conversation.
That sounds like a statement made by a friend who was just expressing sympathy not seeking some logical conclusion of all scenarios.
I think a simple - yeah that's rough, I couldn't imagine going through that situation right now - would have gone a lot further. Unless it's your goal to seem utterly incapable of sympathizing.

Nothing wrong with identifying possible outcomes but there is a time and place for everything and someone's mother dying isn't it.
 

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I don't think your example fits to any type per say.
I just hope you didn't actually tell them that because it would demonstrate a poor understanding of conversation.
That sounds like a statement made by a friend who was just expressing sympathy not seeking some logical conclusion of all scenarios.
I think a simple - yeah that's rough, I couldn't imagine going through that situation right now - would have gone a lot further. Unless it's your goal to seem utterly incapable of sympathizing.

Nothing wrong with identifying possible outcomes but there is a time and place for everything and someone's mother dying isn't it.
Out of context I guess it does seem like that :unsure:

Firstly I wasn't talking to the person who's mother is dying I was talking to my best friend, the ENFP. I would never say this kind of thing to a person who's mother is dying. The person in question was a friend of a friend of a friend, somebody that we actually didn't know too closely and thus both have negligible emotional attachment too. I can be sympathetic when then the situation warrants it, in fact, that quote was after about a 3 hour conversation of us discussing the emotional backlash this would have. The person in question really didn't need sympathy as their mother isn't dying. But my ENFP has a tendency to repeat himself and the conversation was dragging on into an endless cycle of "yeah that sucks" so I was seeking some finality to the topic. Thus this quote was born. So let me reassure you that I am not a heartless monster, I just hate people repeating themselves endlessly :tongue:
 

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That's actually ironic, seeing as how all the INFJ's I know are all very loudmouthed, headstrong, and opinionated and love to tell me how wrong I am. Both have told me I'm a stupid kid who doesn't know what he's talking about on several occasions. Although they are both around 40 years older than me, so maybe there onto something.......
I've heard INFJs can be like that, yeah, especially when stressed. (And they can also be misinterpreted that way even if it's not the best available perspective.) If you look at the INFJ functions (Ni Fe Ti Se), the textbook way of being is with Ni and Fe, which can in unhealthy situations manifest as forceful extroverting of internal visions, especially if there is little interest or capability in using Ti to temper those judgments.

Things can get heated and still be carefree, something that I have been only able to achieve with my INTJ. When I argue with my ENFP or ESTJ I always know things are going to get heated and that one of them will eventually start attacking me and my objectivity halfway through the debate. We often finish each others sentences and understand each others references so there's no need for either of us to condescend to the other. The way we handle relationships and emotions are actually the place where we really show the differences in our types, although I have no idea whether or not these reactions are indicative of INFJ or INTJ so I could still he wrong. If something is going on that distresses me I basically leave. If its a crisis I'll handle the situation then ill leave. Ill retreat into the back of my mind reciting Chess lines or going over theoretical physical laws in my head. She'll tackle the situation directly but indirectly at the same time. She'll tackle the situation at hand, and still be emotionally engaged but she puts on what I have dubbed the INTJ "Stoic Face of Stoicness". Shes engaged but she wouldn't dare let anybody know it. She then goes back into her cave to mull over her feelings and to sort through them. Very rarely will she ever speak to you during this process. Socially we're miles apart. I have a very small group of friends, totaling at a whopping: 2. I know dozens of other people but I would never consider them friends, as they do not know me well enough to allow them that title in my mind. She on the other hand considers everyone to be her friend and the closer you actually get to her, the less likely she is to actually admit that you are actually friends. Basically she would tell a person that she just met that they are friends, but a friend of 10 years she will never actually verbally acknowledge their relationship. I believe this is due to an underlying need for control that is very much in line with the typical INTJ attitude. Yes I have also considered ENTJ but it didn't fit.
Hehe, I see myself in your descriptions again. :D I admit that I am not very fond of debate, but I guess it depends on the kind. I started crying hysterically when an ESTP shouted at me on the phone while arguing, and I tend to get extremely distressed when I debate INTJs. Not sure why exactly, but they don't seem to "hear" me and seem somehow "cold" about their opinions, whatever that really means. I'm at a loss for descriptive words. However, I am kind of hooked to analyzing for better definitions, weeding out illogical thoughts and factual inaccuracies in a detached manner to get to the heart and truth of things, which is what INTPs often do.

Same goes for relationship crisis management, the INTPs I know just retreat and avoid the situation completely. The classic INFJ threat response is one of flight and confrontation, which is exactly what you described. When I need to deal with something, I fall completely stoic and detached (well, to the best of my abilities anyway, which seems to fool people to my surprise) and I try to achieve common ground or some sort of agreement as fast as possible. After the immediate problem is over, I retreat and mull it over by myself, only then being personal about it and letting my emotions out again. I usually don't talk about the stuff to anyone, but if I do, it will be to someone who is not involved in any way and someone I trust to have sound judgment and insight. I may come back later to discuss the issues with the people involved if there is need for it.

Also considering everyone to be your friend but calling maybe no one your true friend is classic INFJ onion-intimacy. Due to auxiliary Fe, INFJs are interested in having a web of relationships, despite being introverts, but INFJs also get gradually more idealistic the closer you get to the core. It is about a subconscious need for control, yes, though the way I rationally experience it is more like a mixture of fear of getting hurt, being polite to everyone, and devoting yourself and carrying increasing responsibility for those who are dear to you. The more I care for someone, the more I work for them and the more I expect to see results of my work, i.e. the strengthening and deepening of a mutually rewarding relationship. My longest standing friend, INTP, remarked, that I "get along with every goat-fucker" and I indeed can blend in with this group who smokes, drinks, does drugs, goes to bars - while at the same time I am an absolutist, drug-free vegetarian not too wild about loud social places such as bars. But I drink tea and dance and enjoy myself, lol.

Hehe, either way, regardless of what your friend is, I get an INTP vibe from you, all the way to the long chunks of texts and multiple dots drifting off at the end....... ;)
 

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I'm not quite sure if I can say what you are. I recommend taking the test again. You remind me of my ISTJ friend, but with slightly more intuition, which leads me to thinking that you might be an INTJ. INTJs and INTPs are so commonly mistaken for each other. I think that the reason for that is because they are already almost similar except for the Judgemental/Perceptive. I have an INTJ friend and we are so strikingly similar, mostly because INTPs are "Chameleons", and I don't even have to work hard at all to be almost exactly like my friend, so it seems we are almost the same off the bat. If I had to guess though, I would say you are an INTJ, and you just were confused before because of the similarity between the two. I do see many clues that you are Judgemental, which backs up this point.
 

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Hehe, I see myself in your descriptions again. :D I admit that I am not very fond of debate, but I guess it depends on the kind. I started crying hysterically when an ESTP shouted at me on the phone while arguing, and I tend to get extremely distressed when I debate INTJs. Not sure why exactly, but they don't seem to "hear" me and seem somehow "cold" about their opinions, whatever that really means.
This is my main problem with that. My INTJ has that creamy emotional center,Fi, but I would never see her having that reaction. I'll admit I'm a tad bit cold from time to time, but not as much as her when she's trying to be. The reason that the girl is still single is because every guy that comes across and tries to debate her will eventually get to a point where she tries to be hurtful and cold. This is usually because if she's debating you, she sees your view as illogical or as she would say "just dumb". If she loses respect for you,or views that your getting too close, she tries to shut you out. She only seems to do this to guys for some reason, I've seen her do it to one girl and let me tell you it was a logical massacre that left the girl in tears. This is why I'm her only guy friend. It's because most of the guys saw her cute exterior and assumed that she was a ditzy girl, which admittedly she does appear to be so at first glance. So when they reach this area of cold they all run and hide cause they didn't want to upset her. Ironically one of the first times I ever got to know her was through an argument. She threw up the cold wall but then I showed I wasn't scared and was determined to prove that her argument was full of holes. It ended with us laughing and telling countless amounts of dirty jokes. I know this entire paragraph was a Ne tangent, so let me get back on topic. For some reason the girl wants people to challenge her, to not back down when she barks. Based upon the INFJs I've seen, that doesn't really fit. Admittedly this isn't true for all cases. If your point is still wrong afterwards not only will she shut you out, but she'll tear your argument to shreds. Plus she is the only person I've seen who was able to argue with my ESTJ who is a grade A asshole who loves to yell.

I'm not quite sure if I can say what you are. I recommend taking the test again. You remind me of my ISTJ friend, but with slightly more intuition, which leads me to thinking that you might be an INTJ. INTJs and INTPs are so commonly mistaken for each other. I think that the reason for that is because they are already almost similar except for the Judgemental/Perceptive. I have an INTJ friend and we are so strikingly similar, mostly because INTPs are "Chameleons", and I don't even have to work hard at all to be almost exactly like my friend, so it seems we are almost the same off the bat. If I had to guess though, I would say you are an INTJ, and you just were confused before because of the similarity between the two. I do see many clues that you are Judgemental, which backs up this point.
Would you care to elaborate? It's just your the only INTJ counter argument I've seen so far and I would like to hear your perspective on this matter.
 

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For some reason the girl wants people to challenge her, to not back down when she barks. Based upon the INFJs I've seen, that doesn't really fit. Admittedly this isn't true for all cases. If your point is still wrong afterwards not only will she shut you out, but she'll tear your argument to shreds. Plus she is the only person I've seen who was able to argue with my ESTJ who is a grade A asshole who loves to yell.
Ah, I see. That's true, INFJs are typically not looking for arguments. Some may appear like they are asking for it, though. (Y) But I haven't seen a happy INFJ doing that. The "that's dumb" (or "you're an idiot") -accusations do happen if there's high stress and low maturity, but wanting to be challenged is a bit... yeah. Funny, that there are so many similarities, however.
 
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