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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As one could expect with introverted rationals, INTPs and INTJs can both be a bit awkward socially. The functions that could be really helpful (especially the feeling functions) are lower on our function order. And... our introverted function is first, so we're already somewhat drained from talking to people. All in all, it can be a frustrating experience.

But I think I've noticed differences in the awkwardness between INTPs and INTJs, which I think can possibly be explained by the functions. I think awkwardness comes principally from a few things; understanding of social customs, and ability and willingness to follow through on things that are accepted socially. There's also a component of closeness of the two people, but I'm talking mostly about awkwardness in just casual talk.

My problem as an INTP is usually when I'm completely oblivious to my surroundings and can't really be withdrawn from my thoughts, with such high Ti and such low Fe (and not knowing my surroundings isn't helped by lack of Se). If I'm at a party and I'm a stranger, I flit from place to place (but not energetically) unless I can sort of connect with someone. Even then I can forget that I'm supposed to be talking because I'm going through so many thoughts while in conversation. When I'm at my least awkward, I pretty much just channel Ne and talk like an ENTP, drawing ideas from inside but still using Ne to come up with things to say. And if the person appreciates absurdity, Ne can be very helpful. If not... well, then I say something out of place and I withdraw more. I often have an inkling what I'm supposed to do but my thinking can get in the way of me doing it; other times I'm just clueless altogether.

INTJ awkwardness seems to be different entirely. Though Te can make great talkers and Se, if developed, can help with social awareness, there are other problems. Fi is more about value judgments while Fe is an outward, social feeling function, so this doesn't always seem to help much. Another issue is the lead introverted intuition... don't get me wrong, it's amazing for problem solving and system building, but what I've seen in my INTJ friend is that it is really not the best for pleasant conversation, for a totally different weakness than Ti's. Having that conviction of insight can put up a barrier to social interaction, where someone can come off as hard to approach, worsened by the Fi. INTJs may have an aura of confidence, which can be attractive, but it can also be intimidating. Combine this with large introversion in some cases and an apathy towards social customs and INTJs can be quite awkward and difficult to approach

TL;DR: INTPs are awkward because we fail to always recognize what is socially acceptable and are also inhibited from doing what we know is customary. INTJs are awkward because their model of social customs isn't always quite accurate and they can sometimes seem standoffish.

I do want to note that I try not to be biased towards or against any type, though obvious as an INTP that bias does exist. And my samples are from experience with myself and my friend, which may not be the best evidence.

So what do you guys think? Is one type more awkward? Which kind do you see more in yourself or others? Tell me if I'm wrong or unfair with my analysis.
 

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I'm well aware of what is customary, however lack any fucks to give. Social customs are silly, as they encourage acting mindlessly and instill predispositions about things that might otherwise be prone to further analysis. Your theory isn't sound--at least in my case.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm well aware of what is customary, however lack any fucks to give. Social customs are silly, as they encourage acting mindlessly and instill predispositions about things that might otherwise be prone to further analysis. Your theory isn't sound--at least in my case.
I suppose by customs I didn't so much mean social rituals but simply... how to respond to people in social situations. I don't mean follow-the-herd sort of stuff, but reacting and recognizing other personalities and how to interact with them. I don't really follow the pack either because it disinterests me, and I have little need for popularity. But I'm just talking about relating with people.
 

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I suppose by customs I didn't so much mean social rituals but simply... how to respond to people in social situations. I don't mean follow-the-herd sort of stuff, but reacting and recognizing other personalities and how to interact with them. I don't really follow the pack either because it disinterests me, and I have little need for popularity. But I'm just talking about relating with people.
You can manipulate such situations by learning from an ENTP. I talk fine with people, smile, talk about the weather. Cos' that's normal to "other type" people. And i'm myself with another NT or online. You can not change people, you need not change yourself, in fact, you can't change your dominant functions. However, you can be the "chameleon" and make them believe what they need to believe to get the job done.

That is the entire idea behind not having a shitty life, for an INTP.


You can also just not give a fuck, but that will have side effects. Loneliness. Just don't marry someone while being a chameleon.
 

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INTJs seem more aloof and no-nonsense, they seem like they just can't be bothered with a lot of social situations whereas INTPs will usually engage as long as the conversation is about something they are very interested in. INTJs are more straight to the point in their communication(Te) while INTPs often wander off into different topics(Ne). INTPs are probably more relatable to most people with Ne, it can break down complex theories into more easily understandable analogies to laypeople, INTPs usually have a more easygoing demeanor than INTJs and seem more outwardly open to many kinds of subjects and ideas. That helps a lot in getting people to like you, Te can seem very rigid and impersonal to other types.

INTPs want to take in as much information and different perspectives as possible and get the most idealized result, often leaving no stone left unturned, this can waste time and resources which could irritate a lot of INTJs.

INTJs usually want a end goal in mind, a practical course of action, they identify what needs to be done and then set a course, they probably think the INTP style is unpractical, wasteful, and time consuming. This can make them seem more ruthless and decisive.

The INTP communication style is therefore more suited for accommodating people and getting more of a census, this can make them seem more open-minded and quietly friendly(the behind the scenes interaction style).
 

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This is just an example, but this INTJ dude I work with completely lacks tact and subtlety. He's always got something to say, and is one of the sharpest people I know but is very overbearing and forgets what he has already told other people so constantly repeats himself. His social charisma is about a 3.
He doesn't have very many friends and spends extreme amounts of time with the ones he does - hence he appears socially awkward even if he isn't aware of this fact.

I am awkward in the stereotypical INTP manner in that I don't enjoy small talk at all, don't enjoy office politics, or schmoozing, so it probably comes off as forced or unnatural when I do try and play the game. At best I can get people talking to fill up large gaps of time so I don't have to.

I also zone out when I have no opinion, whereas he has an opinion and gives it whether people want to hear it or not.
 

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I can kind of see this. there have been times where I've just sat and listened and thought about what people were saying but didn't have anything to contribute until much later. then someone would point out to me "that was the first thing you said in an hour!" :\ and then sometimes the things that I do say end up too wacky (I guess) or flippant or geeky or I don't know what--people don't seem to have a response other than "...okayyyyyy..."
with an INTJ I have observed, when people misunderstand or don't seem to know how to respond, I think it's largely because the INTJ has come across as "here is my opinionated opinion. argue against it if you can and dare." I am never sure if they actually want to hear other people's views or if they just expect people to agree with them. maybe they want people to put forth their own views so the INTJ can demolish those views and confirm that his own views are indeed superior. that's just how it seems to me, and I interpret this to be a sort of awkwardness. not sure if the INTJ feels it is awkward, though.
 

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The INTP communication style is therefore more suited for accommodating people and getting more of a census, this can make them seem more open-minded and quietly friendly(the behind the scenes interaction style).
I make sure not to seem too open minded and friendly so that people don't get the wrong idea--wouldn't want that.
 

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I'm well aware of what is customary, however lack any fucks to give. Social customs are silly, as they encourage acting mindlessly and instill predispositions about things that might otherwise be prone to further analysis. Your theory isn't sound--at least in my case.


If you waste your time worrying about this shit in life... well, you're wasting your time.

Life is too short to bother trying to appease random people you don't even know.
 

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with an INTJ I have observed, when people misunderstand or don't seem to know how to respond, I think it's largely because the INTJ has come across as "here is my opinionated opinion. argue against it if you can and dare." I am never sure if they actually want to hear other people's views or if they just expect people to agree with them. maybe they want people to put forth their own views so the INTJ can demolish those views and confirm that his own views are indeed superior. that's just how it seems to me, and I interpret this to be a sort of awkwardness. not sure if the INTJ feels it is awkward, though.
Can't speak for other INTJs or the one you know (obviously), but I typically expect people to challenge my views if they don't agree with them or speak up if there's an idea they care to take further. If I've bothered to give an opinion at all in casual conversation, it's likely because I think the topic is worth discussing.

In fact, it's actually a little disconcerting to me that some people feel they have to be "invited" to give their views on something, or that an opening to do so has to be created for them, because otherwise this isn't the thing to do.

@RoSoDude

This sounds about right to me (and reminds me a little of how my INTP partner and I function - or don't - at larger gatherings) but I wouldn't say that my model for social customs is inaccurate so much as that I vacillate between being oblivious or indifferent, depending on my level of preoccupation. The only key difference I've noticed between my partner and I is that it's easier for him to find his way out of his thoughts when someone's trying to draw him into conversation, and he knows how to keep it going much longer than I do. Even with Fe in the inferior position, I think INTPs have an advantage over INTJs, socially.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You can manipulate such situations by learning from an ENTP. I talk fine with people, smile, talk about the weather. Cos' that's normal to "other type" people. And i'm myself with another NT or online. You can not change people, you need not change yourself, in fact, you can't change your dominant functions. However, you can be the "chameleon" and make them believe what they need to believe to get the job done.

That is the entire idea behind not having a shitty life, for an INTP.


You can also just not give a fuck, but that will have side effects. Loneliness. Just don't marry someone while being a chameleon.
Yeah, my brother is an ENTP so I've learned pretty well. Though I don't see the point a lot of the time I can do a bit of small talk. I've become a lot less awkward recently, and some people actually tell me I'm comfortable to talk to. I think a large part of it has been figuring out how to use my Ne correctly and in the right proportions.

As for this chameleon thing, I've read before that INTPs tend to put up masks for different people. I definitely see this in myself, where I'm quieter around my reserved friend, eccentric around my odd friend, and really random around my spontaneous friend, etc. It's not something I do on purpose, it's an unconscious adjustment... is this something common for our type? I have to wonder if it can be explained by my functions; I'm sure this has been explored for ENTPs.

I think intuitives, especially those with Ne seem to understand me the best. I'm with an ENFP and we have really good communication because of it, and we both seem to sort of "click" with each other. Though I do let a bit of a wilder side show with her I do think it's just a part of my personality I can let out when I'm around her. I never feel like I'm faking.

Can't speak for other INTJs or the one you know (obviously), but I typically expect people to challenge my views if they don't agree with them or speak up if there's an idea they care to take further. If I've bothered to give an opinion at all in casual conversation, it's likely because I think the topic is worth discussing.

In fact, it's actually a little disconcerting to me that some people feel they have to be "invited" to give their views on something, or that an opening to do so has to be created for them, because otherwise this isn't the thing to do.

@RoSoDude

This sounds about right to me (and reminds me a little of how my INTP partner and I function - or don't - at larger gatherings) but I wouldn't say that my model for social customs is inaccurate so much as that I vacillate between being oblivious or indifferent, depending on my level of preoccupation. The only key difference I've noticed between my partner and I is that it's easier for him to find his way out of his thoughts when someone's trying to draw him into conversation, and he knows how to keep it going much longer than I do. Even with Fe in the inferior position, I think INTPs have an advantage over INTJs, socially.
I am definitely with the INTPs here with needing an invitation to argue (unless I know the person or it is in a forum for public discussion). I prefer to be inoffensive and even complacent because I greatly dislike asserting myself over others, or implying such.

And yes, I apologize to everyone for using the term "social customs"... I definitely meant something a lot different than it was interpreted as, and the miscommunication was on my end. I really just mean being able to read how to respond to others socially, not rituals or social roles or any of that. For model, I simply meant your model of expected behavior from others; what you're telling me is affirming what I was sort of trying to get at, but was having difficulty wording.

I think INTJs probably have a lot easier time voicing arguments and verbalizing their convictions (Te), but INTPs may just have the upper hand in small talk, that we often consider just as useless as you might consider it, with the Ne.
 
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with an INTJ I have observed, when people misunderstand or don't seem to know how to respond, I think it's largely because the INTJ has come across as "here is my opinionated opinion. argue against it if you can and dare." I am never sure if they actually want to hear other people's views or if they just expect people to agree with them. maybe they want people to put forth their own views so the INTJ can demolish those views and confirm that his own views are indeed superior. that's just how it seems to me, and I interpret this to be a sort of awkwardness. not sure if the INTJ feels it is awkward, though.
You have to gain the respect of an INTJ first...usually through building some form of a friendship. Let them see that you're just a harmless INTP and then they'll let their guard down (over time) and a good friendship will emerge. Once that happens, then you can really begin to state your opinions strongly and they will respect your viewpoint because you've already gained their respect and trust.

If you don't know them well (therefore they haven't had time to build any respect for you), they seem to want to argue over you. Also, if you're going to be firm with them and state a strong case for something, you have to come strong with the Ti logic. You have to know what you're talking about and/or think through it very carefully, considering all the ramifications, before you present it to them. They aren't really into the wild Ne idea sharing and time wasting. Do your Ne brainstorming by yourself and then present your thoughts to them via Ti.
 

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Being standoffish is more efficient. How am I supposed to be successful if I stop to talk to everyone?
Exactly. And the more friends/acquaintances I accumulate, the more "out of control" it seems to become. Everywhere you go, you have to stop and chit chat, which becomes terribly inefficient and unproductive, not to mention really annoying.
 

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Can't speak for other INTJs or the one you know (obviously), but I typically expect people to challenge my views if they don't agree with them or speak up if there's an idea they care to take further. If I've bothered to give an opinion at all in casual conversation, it's likely because I think the topic is worth discussing.

In fact, it's actually a little disconcerting to me that some people feel they have to be "invited" to give their views on something, or that an opening to do so has to be created for them, because otherwise this isn't the thing to do.
That's exactly how my INTJ friends are. A lot of people seem unwilling or even afraid to disagree with them, or get offended easily by some supposed demeanor or whatever. I find it rather intellectually challenging and fun. I've never had a problem voicing my opinions and feeling like they were taken seriously (except when the INTJ is having an off day... in which case I try to stay rather distanced because I do not like angry NTs. they are mean. :sad:) and the INTJs never really take offense to that either. Sometimes others have seemed bothered by how "heated" a conversation may seem, and at the end we're both fine with the conclusion and laughing while everyone else thinks we just had the most appalling argument.

Getting NTs together for conversations is always really enjoyable, but I do think that socializing is very different than it is with other groupings, and I can see where INTPs have a bit more of an immediate social advantage than INTJs. But I think INTJs are much better at commanding respect and wielding authority in a workplace setting than INTPs.


Wow, what an appalling use of words... shouldn't drink and PerC...
 

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If you don't know them well (therefore they haven't had time to build any respect for you), they seem to want to argue over you. Also, if you're going to be firm with them and state a strong case for something, you have to come strong with the Ti logic. You have to know what you're talking about and/or think through it very carefully, considering all the ramifications, before you present it to them. They aren't really into the wild Ne idea sharing and time wasting. Do your Ne brainstorming by yourself and then present your thoughts to them via Ti.
Oh no I'm screwed!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
That's exactly how my INTJ friends are. A lot of people seem unwilling or even afraid to disagree with them, or get offended easily by some supposed demeanor or whatever. I find it rather intellectually challenging and fun. I've never had a problem voicing my opinions and feeling like they were taken seriously (except when the INTJ is having an off day... in which case I try to stay rather distanced because I do not like angry NTs. they are mean. :sad:) and the INTJs never really take offense to that either. Sometimes others have seemed bothered by how "heated" a conversation may seem, and at the end we're both fine with the conclusion and laughing while everyone else thinks we just had the most appalling argument.

Getting NTs together for conversations is always really enjoyable, but I do think that socializing is very different than it is with other groupings, and I can see where INTPs have a bit more of an immediate social advantage than INTJs. But I think INTJs are much better at commanding respect and wielding authority in a workplace setting than INTPs.


Wow, what an appalling use of words... shouldn't drink and PerC...
Lulz, quoted you and found something I didn't notice before ;)

But I definitely agree with that. My INTJ friend has told me he has less trouble having debates with me than with my ENTP brother (we're twins) because I'm more accommodating and less forceful with my positions. I don't like the conflict part of arguments (the INTJ tells me he thrives on the aggressiveness and challenge), but I like the intellectual stimulation. Unsurprisingly, the ENTP pretty much just trolls my friend :p

I definitely try to stay passive if it will give people a more neutral (than bad) opinion of me, because I'd rather be known for being intelligent under the surface than overtly smart and forceful about it.
 
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