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Discussion Starter #1
I have a friend who self-identifies as an INTP. Often, when we are discussing philosophy or esoteric things, he claims he has "a hard time keeping up", however I know that his level of intelligence is very high. It is not a disparity in our respective intelligence nor is it a matter of attention span, as neither of us has ADHD or anything like that. In his own words, he has described it as "I'm trying to process your statements in serial, you're processing things in parallel."

Yes, I think that's a remarkable way of putting it. Very much like a GPU, my intuition feeds me "images" constructed out of basic mathematical forms, which represent the approximations of things in spacetime, relative to my own state of being at any given moment. If Ti, as an attitude and a function, has to actually go through the process of establishing formal, rational links between associations in order to semantically justify them, I can see why I might start to frustrate him by "going too fast", if he is trying to do this during a discussion where I am just being "sloppy" as it were, and taking "shortcuts" by employing "risky heuristics" (if you get what I mean by that), to just cut straight to the heart of a subject matter.

Have any of you had a similar experience in discussing anything subtle or subjective with a friendly INTJ? He says it is like I'm "always in a hurry to assume the predicate" and that I should "wait for more information first". I wonder if he is slightly projecting the way that someone with dominant Ti has to "wait" for their auxiliary perceiving function to provide them with some sort of insight to keep the ball rolling, as it were. If my speculation is accurate, it would explain the dissonance. As my perceiving function is dominant, I have more raw information to work with (potentially at least) at any given moment, and the only limiting factor is my ability to rationalize all of it into a coherent system. So "waiting" for me, would be taking the time to do what he is doing a lot more and with greater finesse than I am usually.
 

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Yes, I'm working with an INTJ now (and have written a couple of lengthy rants about how much I'm hating it...).

I'm not sure if it's the same kind of thing, but he'll happily spend up to 4 hours talking about programming issues with me, without any consideration for the fact that I'm expected to take it all in and do actual work based on everything he's said.

I think perhaps it's a different situation for me because his way of thinking is purely forensic/analytical, whereas I'm the one doing the actual coding so I must remember everything he's said. He can just have an interesting discussion about it and move on, but I need to actually memorise it and take action. It frustrates me immensely - how can he be so selfish as to waste my time with these long discussions?! To be honest I don't think it's specifically an INTJ thing though. He just isn't very well developed socially.

Regarding the INTP way of absorbing information, I see my mind-map as a "sludge of knowledge", from which you can stick a spoon in, mix everything up, then scoop out fascinating and novel new insights into everything. I think this differs from the INTJ mind-map. which I imagine to be something more like Tetris - orderly and robust.

Perhaps this is why your INTP friend feels that he can't keep up. Generally when learning new things, we can't just "read it and move on". We need to take that information and put it into the sludge. Imagine taking a stone and pressing it into some playdough, then after a little while the stone assimilates and becomes playdough. That's what learning is like for us. At first the stone is a standalone snippet of info, but after a while it will assimilate and we'll be able to apply it to the entire universe.
 

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Not an INTP nor an INTJ, but I’m an INFJ and I have similar problems with INFPs. Their Ji gets in the way of our flow of conversation - they often think I’m in a hurry or taking “shortcuts” with Ni to get to the point quickly, while I think their Introverted Judging Fi is paralyzing them and preventing them from having meaningful insights.

I don’t know; from my perspective, being someone who is dominated by a Ji or Je function is inherently limiting. Insight and perception are your second priorities; categorizing, judging and “pointing fingers” are your number one priorities.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I'm not sure if it's the same kind of thing, but he'll happily spend up to 4 hours talking about programming issues with me, without any consideration for the fact that I'm expected to take it all in and do actual work based on everything he's said.
You know what, I think this is really the essence of it, and I imagine it actually doesn't even have anything to do with his type. I imagine it would be hard for anyone to keep up with a 4 hour explanation of a programming task. And we're not even discussing so rudimentary and mundane as programming tasks, we're discussing things like true basis of reality, alternate states of consciousness and what the information gathered from those states implies about reality or calls into question, trying to push the boundaries of science and more clearly define where science ends and psuedoscience begins, that sort of stuff. Really heavy intellectual stuff you could argue about from multiple angles and not be wrong. The kind of stuff you'd imagine an ENTP debate leader would bust a nut over.

On a side note, that's one thing he's noticed. Whenever we get into really heated debates about something, my intuition "flips" and takes on a very extraverted character because it is easier for me to do this than it is for me to put a lot of effort into rational thought, as I am in fact, a not very well differentiated sample of the stereotypical INTJ. My auxiliary function is barely more developed than my feeling function, and as a result, neither are very differentiated for me, so I either tend to get stuck with indecision (unable to utilize the thinking function optimally) that can take a long time to overcome, or I just burn out and give up thinking about it and decide to trust my hunch enough to proceed living experimentally and adaptively.

This actually has the effect sometimes of making me seem more like a perceiving type, especially when there's no obvious sign that I'm putting much effort into thinking about what I'm doing before I act, but I also wonder if it's part of the dissonance taking place when I'm "going too fast". I imagine if I really was objectively going too fast, then he wouldn't know it because he would completely miss what I said. Rather, it's that he's recognizing he can keep up, but it takes effort, which creates an unpleasantness for him. I can understand and relate to that when I'm being put under pressure to make up my mind about something where my intuition is telling me it's something complicated or important. I think what's happening might be that, since intuition is auxillary for him, it must feel like someone "side seat driving" in a very aggressive way, and to me, his insistence on semantic accuracy with every single term I use and every single point I make really wears me down as well when I just want to make progress with a discussion.
 

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I find it funny it's totally contrary to my Intj father and intj boss . I'm the most prone to talk about philosophy or esoteric topics ( i saw my father reading about alchemy the other day xD ).

I think all of you are just analizing highly logical Intp's . it's fair , most of them in their younger life are like that but Intp's are late bloomers.

Most of you are forgetting the power of Ti and Ne , The most intuitive Intp's already knows the Ni perspective ( Ne make it just one of many ) but most of them discard it 'cause there is alot of other variables to think about and it's not really realible .

Of course , Intj's are alot more accurate than infj ( 'cause Te , in a "thinker" perspective and Infj Ti is very primitive ) but really .... Most of the time those greaters insights which Ni brings just seems shallow 'cause Ne just shows you that is just one part of the puzzle .
 

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I have the same problem with Te. Why are some of them always in a hurry? If it's something important or deep, then it deserves to be slowly observed and absorbed. If it's not, then it's not worth the time to talk about it. There are times when speed is important, like an emergency situation. But, those times are rare, and I would be happy to speed things up in that case.

It's very common for me to try to simplify things for others. It's inconsiderate otherwise. Many people with strong Te just list facts/opinions without simplification. They also are not as semantically sensitive as Ti. For example, they might interchange words like precision/accuracy, strategy/tactic, contradiction/paradox, simple/easy, etc. This insensitive to semantics plus the speed is what makes me give up listening.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I have the same problem with Te. Why are some of them always in a hurry? If it's something important or deep, then it deserves to be slowly observed and absorbed. If it's not, then it's not worth the time to talk about it. There are times when speed is important, like an emergency situation. But, those times are rare, and I would be happy to speed things up in that case.

It's very common for me to try to simplify things for others. It's inconsiderate otherwise. Many people with strong Te just list facts/opinions without simplification. They also are not as semantically sensitive as Ti. For example, they might interchange words like precision/accuracy, strategy/tactic, contradiction/paradox, simple/easy, etc. This insensitive to semantics plus the speed is what makes me give up listening.
Reverse the perspective, and you'd perceive yourself as slow. Whether or not something is important or deep does not produce some ethical obligation to "go slowly" if I can "go quickly" and process the same information without missing anything important. As for accuracy, again, the quality of the end product determines what degree of accuracy was necessary. If the goal was achieved, and we did not go over the projected cost, then the project was successful. Often with Ti-types I just give up because it becomes a waste of my time to cater to them when I can interface with another more efficient individual who can accomplish a task without delay.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Do you even care whether anyone understands what you are saying. This is word salad.
Try being less emotional when you process and respond to it in the spirit in which it was written and it might make more sense, by not having to negotiate with your biases and expectations.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I find it funny it's totally contrary to my Intj father and intj boss . I'm the most prone to talk about philosophy or esoteric topics ( i saw my father reading about alchemy the other day xD ).

I think all of you are just analizing highly logical Intp's . it's fair , most of them in their younger life are like that but Intp's are late bloomers.

Most of you are forgetting the power of Ti and Ne , The most intuitive Intp's already knows the Ni perspective ( Ne make it just one of many ) but most of them discard it 'cause there is alot of other variables to think about and it's not really realible .

Of course , Intj's are alot more accurate than infj ( 'cause Te , in a "thinker" perspective and Infj Ti is very primitive ) but really .... Most of the time those greaters insights which Ni brings just seems shallow 'cause Ne just shows you that is just one part of the puzzle .
I appreciate your input. I agree, it is probably a dissonance caused by our subjective and personal stage of development.

However, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of Ni and Ne.

The I and E preference merely indicates the direction of the flow of libido energy, as explained by Jung and expounded by Myers and the MBTI Foundation. An introverted intuition derives it's "inspiration" from within, and directs the focus of its attention upon "inner images", rather than external sensation stimuli. An extraverted intuition does this as well, but receives and "looks for" inspiration from the external environment, as well as trying to "stir up" inspirational situations for others to experience. Ne has absolutely no advantage whatsoever over Ni in any sense or capacity. It is literally like flipping a coin and you got heads instead of tails. It confers no overall benefit or advantage versus the other outcome, likewise with all functions and all forms of cognition. Be sure you lay to rest, right away, all of your ego and pride when it comes to types, because that is precisely why the modern psychological community does not bother with MBTI or "type based theories" anymore, and has moved on to traits only.

All categorization, all semantic classification, all decision making, all analysis, all finality, comes from judgment functions, not perceiving functions. A determination about the information is made via one of the decision making functions, either via thinking (semantic classification of information into discreet and logically arranged associations) or via feeling (responding to ones own emotions and making a decision consciously or unconsciously to do/say/think something, motivated by that emotion.)
 

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Try being less emotional when you process and respond to it in the spirit in which it was written and it might make more sense, by not having to negotiate with your biases and expectations.
Try responding to the words on the screen rather than trying to read my mind. You don't know what I was or wasn't feeling.
 

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I appreciate your input. I agree, it is probably a dissonance caused by our subjective and personal stage of development.

However, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of Ni and Ne.

The I and E preference merely indicates the direction of the flow of libido energy, as explained by Jung and expounded by Myers and the MBTI Foundation. An introverted intuition derives it's "inspiration" from within, and directs the focus of its attention upon "inner images", rather than external sensation stimuli. An extraverted intuition does this as well, but receives and "looks for" inspiration from the external environment, as well as trying to "stir up" inspirational situations for others to experience. Ne has absolutely no advantage whatsoever over Ni in any sense or capacity. It is literally like flipping a coin and you got heads instead of tails. It confers no overall benefit or advantage versus the other outcome, likewise with all functions and all forms of cognition. Be sure you lay to rest, right away, all of your ego and pride when it comes to types, because that is precisely why the modern psychological community does not bother with MBTI or "type based theories" anymore, and has moved on to traits only.

All categorization, all semantic classification, all decision making, all analysis, all finality, comes from judgment functions, not perceiving functions. A determination about the information is made via one of the decision making functions, either via thinking (semantic classification of information into discreet and logically arranged associations) or via feeling (responding to ones own emotions and making a decision consciously or unconsciously to do/say/think something, motivated by that emotion.)
You are being very vague about the meanings . i can agree with you that slow " people " is terrible in an economic and corporation sense . I'm the right hand of my boss and i have to be productive and a thinker in any possible situation ( i live in chile man .... earthqueakes , social crisis , covid , communism , ect. ). so ... it's not a Ti problem specially when we think about entp and estp , it wasn't easy for me but i had to learn it in the hard way.

You like your definition of Ni .i can saw that but in reality ... There is not much substance than a recycle blabla and a high porcentage of failure .
You talk about inspiration but the reality is that you can't even compete against the smallest creative process in this world.

You even discard the individualization process in the productive sectors and you discard the individual... omg , is this 1000000 bc ?.

I don't know man ... all what you said sounds pretty cool but in reality just doesn't work.
 

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Reverse the perspective, and you'd perceive yourself as slow. Whether or not something is important or deep does not produce some ethical obligation to "go slowly" if I can "go quickly" and process the same information without missing anything important. As for accuracy, again, the quality of the end product determines what degree of accuracy was necessary. If the goal was achieved, and we did not go over the projected cost, then the project was successful. Often with Ti-types I just give up because it becomes a waste of my time to cater to them when I can interface with another more efficient individual who can accomplish a task without delay.
Come to think of it, I think you're right. Ideally, everyone in the team should be Te. This way, it's super efficient. I hope that you accept my apology on behalf of everyone who's Ti dom. It's clear now how great Te people are.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Try responding to the words on the screen rather than trying to read my mind. You don't know what I was or wasn't feeling.
I don't have to read your mind, but if you don't think your words convey emotion then maybe you need to see a doctor.
 

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You are being very vague about the meanings . i can agree with you that slow " people " is terrible in an economic and corporation sense . I'm the right hand of my boss and i have to be productive and a thinker in any possible situation ( i live in chile man .... earthqueakes , social crisis , covid , communism , ect. ). so ... it's not a Ti problem specially when we think about entp and estp , it wasn't easy for me but i had to learn it in the hard way.

You like your definition of Ni .i can saw that but in reality ... There is not much substance than a recycle blabla and a high porcentage of failure .
You talk about inspiration but the reality is that you can't even compete against the smallest creative process in this world.

You even discard the individualization process in the productive sectors and you discard the individual... omg , is this 1000000 bc ?.

I don't know man ... all what you said sounds pretty cool but in reality just doesn't work.
It does work. That's the difference between Ti and Te. Te is only interested in what works and what does not work. Efficiency, application, and practice are the cornerstones of a Te-mind. Ti is not about any of that. It cares only about winning arguments and being logical and solving puzzles in the fewest moves. So you have it quite reversed, if anything, I'm offering you solutions, not theories. And the fact that they don't square up with your own interpretations and expectations is just about what I expect from Ti-Ne in most cases that I interact with someone running that program. Anything that doesn't screen past the semantic filter gets shunted into "nope" and becomes a tit-for-tat strategy of proving the "nope" on and on, while the rest of the world moves on.

This is precisely what happened to Einstein, who refused to accept quantum theory for the longest time because he was a stubborn INTP. Eventually he capitulated because the sheer mountain of evidence produced by INTJ physicists surrounding him would not entertain him any longer and he grew bored of his own point of view.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Come to think of it, I think you're right. Ideally, everyone in the team should be Te. This way, it's super efficient. I hope that you accept my apology on behalf of everyone who's Ti dom. It's clear now how great Te people are.
Thanks, and yeah, ideally they would. I accept your apology on behalf of everyone who's Te-auxiliary. It's clear now how great Ti people are.
 

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It does work. That's the difference between Ti and Te. Te is only interested in what works and what does not work. Efficiency, application, and practice are the cornerstones of a Te-mind. Ti is not about any of that. It cares only about winning arguments and being logical and solving puzzles in the fewest moves. So you have it quite reversed, if anything, I'm offering you solutions, not theories. And the fact that they don't square up with your own interpretations and expectations is just about what I expect from Ti-Ne in most cases that I interact with someone running that program. Anything that doesn't screen past the semantic filter gets shunted into "nope" and becomes a tit-for-tat strategy of proving the "nope" on and on, while the rest of the world moves on.

This is precisely what happened to Einstein, who refused to accept quantum theory for the longest time because he was a stubborn INTP. Eventually he capitulated because the sheer mountain of evidence produced by INTJ physicists surrounding him would not entertain him any longer and he grew bored of his own point of view.
Fair enough, but Intp finds this boring ... I mean, what's the point? . Comparing the functions to each other is like someone urinating at a greater distance.


You are comparing the greatest Te strength (achieving goals) with a function whose greatest strength is analyzing.

Even then you ignore the individualization process ... hey, you have Te. It is very difficult for you to abstract yourself from you and without Ne you cannot take the perspective of others very easily.


Will we still believe in that collectivist shit? or we are going to improve ourselves to the best possible version.


Most Intp already know the weakness of Ti ... They do not need another individual whose Ti is not very developed to enlighten us.
 

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Fair enough, but Intp finds this boring ... I mean, what's the point? . Comparing the functions to each other is like someone urinating at a greater distance.


You are comparing the greatest Te strength (achieving goals) with a function whose greatest strength is analyzing.

Even then you ignore the individualization process ... hey, you have Te. It is very difficult for you to abstract yourself from you and without Ne you cannot take the perspective of others very easily.


Will we still believe in that collectivist shit? or we are going to improve ourselves to the best possible version.


Most Intp already know the weakness of Ti ... They do not need another individual whose Ti is not very developed to enlighten us.
You know, I always find it amusing when people start with with a premise like this:

"Comparing the functions to each other is like someone urinating at a greater distance."

And in the same post, follow up with a statement like this:

"You are comparing the greatest Te strength (achieving goals) with a function whose greatest strength is analyzing."

So which is it? You just bitching or do you take a moral stance against people comparing functions? Because I agree, comparing the "strengths and weaknesses" of functions is absolutely immature and a disgusting misuse of MBTI theory.

So stop doing it, please. I've only been trying to defend my position against a slew of you INTPs feeling offended by my OP because you misunderstood it and took it to be elitist. I don't even for a single second think I'm superior in any respect to any other type at anything.

Get over yourselves.
 
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