INTPs and ENTJs?

My best business relationship to date was with an INTP. We imagine, conceived, and implemented our own business from scratch. We did that when we realized that the autonomy we craved didn't exist in our chosen profession.

Before either of us were aware of MBTI, we noticed that we complemented each other very well. He has a strong tendency to identify weaknesses in my approach, in particular helping me to tone down the assertiveness or perceived aggression. In addition, my desire to have everything done yesterday, was something he really helped with.

In turn, he was greatly helped by my ability to push things through and to implement the things we talked about. My big strengths were in making things happen. We were also very good in meetings - we would break down the stakeholders we expected to be present in the meeting, review talking points and how to present them to different people, and what approach we would take in the meeting. After the meetings, we would dissect our performance and the different impressions we had of each other as well as all the parties present.

This was a tremendous partnership - I ended up moving on to another opportunity, partly because I burned bridges when I crossed the wrong person (he was much better at laying low). Still a tremendously productive partnership. It helped that he was very assertive for an INTP, and even though he naturally deferred to me in most settings, he also didn't take any of my criticisms personally and with time learned to be more assertive in our discussions.

Also, my best friend is an INTP and one of my best relationships was an INTP, and I discovered all of this only after learning about MBTI. So personally, I've found this to be an excellent combination, but I'm skeptical of how much one could generalize my personal experience.

@yassdawg Since I failed at sleeping do to an overactive mind atm, I will respond to this: I do not naturally defer and I hate that stereotype about INTPS but really only because I test as one, though I am aware there are also different INTPs and I shouldn't be irritated by that. I am only half irritated though, it'd be stupid to get truly irritated over something like that, but even though it made me laugh a bit I am ever so slightly peeved off. I'm unsure if I can be accurately typed sometimes, because though I relate to INTPs in how I absorb knowledge and generate ideas and at times have procrastinated almost to my own doom whilst calmly eating a muffin, I also notice some similarities with ISTPs, as I studied into them after a girl on this said I come across as ISTP and look like one. In general though, I like to identify as INTP, and I am better with intuition, but I must ask why you say "naturally?" How did he naturally defer to you? Do you think it was his typing, or your typing, or that it seemed natural for him to defer? Don't worry, I'm not angry or anything, but I had these questions immediately in mind after reading your comment. Also, yes, I knew that an INTP and ENTJ would work well in business. I must warn you for the future, to never cross anyone without thoroughly thinking about every possible positive and negative consequence first. Only if you gain more from crossing someone, must you execute such an action or such actions that could make the person feel crossed in the first place. Another option is to convince someone else to cross them if you notice anyone that can be manipulated into such an action...maybe through a grudge they have? Always keep your mind on the results of every move on the chessboard!

Obligatoryusername91 said:

@Jordan J Elaborate. This is interesting. He speaks in code? You mean he seems like he's thinking another thing, but says something else, or that he just likes to make people guess what's up with him at any particular moment? By small things do you mean that emotional stuff? As a Rational you should know better than to rely on another NT for that, if that is what you mean, I could be misreading.

Click to expand...

Sorry about my lack of clarity. I wrote my last post quickly last night right before a movie began.

By speaking in code, I was referring to him saying X but meaning Y. He does this both to try to get what he wants in a passive-aggressive way, and also just because he thinks it's fun. It's most annoying to me when I can tell he wants something - like for me to stop doing something I habitually do - but he won't just freaking tell me: "Hey! Stop taking so long in the shower!" Also, related to this non-direct communication, he doesn't like it when I explicitly tell him to do something. He wants to feel autonomous, I think. Especially if he's doing something morally wrong, and he knows it's wrong, it's as if he'll keep doing it a little bit longer just to spite me if I tell him he should stop. Weird stuff like that.

Haha, I forgot to elaborate on what I meant by small things. Basically, he isn't the most dependable. If I make a plan on it, he doesn't always follow through. Like for example, we went on a road trip halfway across the country to go back to our respective homes for Spring Break, and because of him I ended up getting back home a day and a half later than we had planned. Ha, that's actually a big example. But again, to clarify, I think ENTJ-INTP is a good match for friendship. He's taught me to adjust my communication style, to try to be more flexible, and has helped point out unwarranted assumptions I make about him, other people, and certain ideas I hold/held.

@Jordan J Now, that's quite interesting. When I hear about habits like passive aggressiveness with INTPs, I again sometimes think that I truly don't fit any personality type. That would fit with a large number of observations made about me over the years, about some particular fluidity others seem to notice, and I picked up on while bored through self tests. I almost relate to your friend's lack of following through with plans, I'm the same to an extent. I'd follow through with something I think is important, and once spent all of my savings on something really important. When I am focused on getting something done, I tend to use "Judging" more until it goes according to my design. Tests usually say I'm 50/50 on Sensing and Intuition, and that I barely have a preference for Perceiving, though I can say I notice Perceiving a lot when thinking up paths for me to take, or when reacting to a crisis and needing to generate fresh options.

Is your friend similar, or does he have a habit of not following through in general? I must say, that if I make a promise to a person to get something done, I usually stand by my word. I can't relate to making somebody a day late. Showing up for work or class late? Yes. Not following through on a helping someone else get home? Never. It's illogical to act in a passive aggressive manner, and it is only too logical to let the people in your life know they can trust you. He sounds emotional. Are you sure he's INTP? If someone tells me what to do, I merely ask why they think it is their business, and carry on feeling disturbed by the intrusion of others. One friend of mine who mentioned being INTP said I have an arrogant "brushing off" manner when anyone criticizes my actions. As I said, not 100% on my typing, relate a lot to INTPs though, so my reaction might be different. But really, look into whether he's more of a Feeler or not.

@Blue Soul Perhaps. I think I and E, as well as T and F, can balance one another out. Yin&Yang, Tao te ching, and all that philosophy jazz. But yes, being typed as something doesn't define you nor a relationship. Labels don't really work on people. They're mostly for isolation and segregation when used for the human species. Social and civil apartheid. You know, an Irish author named Oscar Wilde was locked up for being a homosexual, and that contributed to his death for obvious reasons. Alan Turing killed himself, it's rumoured, after being forced to take hormones for being homosexual. Homosexuality was in the DSM at one point. That is an example of a label interpreted in a negative manner, that I hope has communicated my opinion on taking labels too seriously. There is nothing wrong with being gay, though some at one time, and some still do, label being a homosexual as being a bad thing. I enjoy the writings of Jung, and I'm sure he'd agree with both of us, as we state people cannot be put in a jar with a label. That people are fluid. And that can apply to relationships through conscious and unconscious adaptation, for the person you love.

My older brother is INTP and his lack of action frustrates me to no end. He probably gets very annoyed with my forcefulness though so that's that.
I can never really depend on him to do something for me, unless it's a question of life and death.
See, my INTJ dad, and myself, if we say we will do something, we will do it. We honour our words even if it is for banal undertakings. My brother on the other hand, refuses to get bound by any sort of obligation.
Even if he is free for the weekend, he doesn't know exactly what plans he has because he didn't quite plan anything but he likes to keep his options open and more often than not goes out after a 2 min phone call with his friends.
This is really frustrating because I always wanted to get closer to him (age gap between sibblings) but he never really seemed 'up for it'. e.g. I wanted him to teach me how to drive but he told me he didn't have time (which was a lie because he did have time, but just couldn't be arsed to teach me)
I also noticed what @Jordan J talked about; my intp brother says things in a passive aggressive way and this gets on my nerves. Instead of telling me that I am wrong, he will tell me something like, "oh you think you are always so right, how can you always be so sure of yourself, think for a while." And this really really pisses me off. Like, if I am wrong, just tell me why I am wrong so I can just fix it asap, instead of making a personal attack on my whole being.
Now looking back at this, I must say that his constant 'passive aggressive nagging' as I call it, was beneficial to me on the long run as it helped make me a more grounded person, but it certainly didn't help in tightening the sibbling bonds between us.
In some ways I viewed him as quietly selfish. He would do things on a whim and be like "it's now or never, your time to prove yourself begins now. Fail to seize it and you might never get another interaction again".
In other ways he probably thought I was the selfish one, always making plans and not taking his opinions into consideration because he had none at the time I was making them. As kids, he was perfectly content staying at home while I was always asking my parents to be brought out, to explore the world.

My summary is that an ENTJ-INTP relationship can work, but the effort has to come mostly from the INTP. The INTP needs to lower his/her barriers and become more accepting and understanding. ENTJs are not devils (but we don't even try to rebute this perception so it sticks), but once the INTP believes we are, it's very hard to make things work. INTPs think that they have everything figured out (and they probably do) but ENTJs do not realise that they are being such and such. Communication is key, and instead of being passive-aggressive and retreating to their caves, if INTPs spent just an hour more on trying to make things work with an ENTJ, it will.

My brother is I- 60%, N - 33%, T - 40%, P - 30% around there.

@ArBell I know what you mean. Part of why I avoided the military, is that I really decided I just can't let myself be bound to a contract and under orders most of my waking hours, so, NTP will usually mean someone is a bit of an unpredictable wild card. Good for chess, fights, business(on the grand strategy level), and even politics, but not great when dealing with people on a truly personal level...though the same might be said for all Rationals to an extent, yes?

Today I decided to do a Socionics test as well as an Enneagram, and I found out that no matter what test I take, I apparently come out as INTP. Given I scored high for aggressiveness, on, I think the Enneagram, followed by intellectualism, that explains how I could possibly be typed as an INTP, with the aggression to rival ENTJs. So, there are different subtypes of the various personality types when combined with other systems inspired by the writings of the man himself: Jung. It could be possible your brother scores higher in individualism, and that is why he prefers to do his own thing, rather than bond. That would mean his concern for others would score low. Though, people do change over time, and honestly, I think all of this is fluid like water. It's never too late, you could still find some common ground with him. Though I doubt I ever would with my siblings, that ship has sailed. I don't know every detail about your situation, though I think you two still have a chance, because INTPs are open to new possibilities, and you care enough to want that?

You say you and your dad are similar, him being an INTJ, yes? Is it possible that your brother ever felt jealous of the bond you two shared, and, consciously or unconsciously, decided to drift away from both of you out of spite? Has he ever hinted that he resents you, as being the possible golden child, usurping the paternal, or parental, affection and support? Sometimes, such conflicts arise between an elder and a younger sibling. I could be wrong, but is that a possibility at all?

Yes he is a real wild card.
He is 11 years older than me, so I guess he was used to being an only child until I came around.
He really did go out of his way to show that we were not close when I was a kid (until I was like 14?) he would give chewing gums to my friends in front of me, then say it's finished when I ask for one; he would always bankrupt me in monopoly and laugh at my frustration; he loved annoying me (jumping in front of me out of darkness/telling me spooky stories/locking me outside the house with the dogs for an hour...)
Don't worry though, I think he's grown out of it now.
But as a kid, I certainly didn't realise that I had this bond with my dad. Looking back, I notice some segments but it really wasn't obvious from a child's perspective.
My brother is great at chess, he even tried to teach me once, but i'm too impatient for it... I'll ask him to teach me again when I go visit him in August I did learn a few things though, just to try to have more things in common; I learned football (and fought with the guys in my school who wouldn't let me play, or put me as goal keeper), I played online games etc.

We are a lot closer now, I mean, after 19+ years of living with me, he ought to have developed some immunity towards my abrasiveness right?:tongue: But growing up, my dad never showed preference for either of us. He made sure of that, even if i often asked my parents who their favourite child was, and they would explain that we were both equals =p I know I was the spoilt child though, being the youngest and all, but he always got what he wanted too (although he didn't ask as much as I did). I definitely spent more time with my parents than he did, but that was because I am naturally more demanding in that sense. I don't think he would mind spending that time with them, but it's just that he doesn't actively pursue this 'objective' and I guess that my parents just thought/realised that we were different and require different kind of attention. I don't know if he drifted from my dad though, since he was born much earlier than I was.

Let's relate it all back to the topic at hand now:
Sorry, I don't know what to say haha.
I do have a couple of INTP friends, but we're not close. What I can say is that, ENTJ love to delegate work to be done, and INTPs are huge procrastinators. If it is in a business environment and the ENTJ is the boss of the INTP, the INTP will obviously have to do the work. Bt if the ENTJ and INTP are in a group work, i think the INTP will be the one discussing a lot of possibilities and enraging the ENTJ because the ENTJ wants a solution here and now. The INTP doesn't like to be bossed around either, so if both are stubborn, the grade will suffer.
Relationship wise, I am very independent and won't really expect my partner to do things for me, but I will get fed up if he can't plan anything concrete and leaves every decision up to me. I like to give orders and make plans yes, but to show their 'devotion' (care/love), I would want my partner to organise some things on his own and just tell me the plan after he's done organising it. (It's very tricky, coz I don't like surprises so i'd like to know the details, but as far as INTP stereotypes goes, I don't think that an INTP will come up with irrational/stupid plans so that's that.)

I think my conclusion will be that, at first, INTP and ENTJ are an unlikely match. But as they get to know each other more and more, they come to appreciate each other's company/personality better and realise that they are not that different. They both need to put in some effort but it is minimal compared to let's say ENTJ-ESFP coupling.

@ArBell Ah, so it is the classic sibling rivalry. I'd hope he's grown out of that, or else I would say he is suffering from an arrested development. It is an important conflict to overcome within oneself. Locking you out and giving chewing gum to your friends sounds rather cruel. I once tried giving a ladybug to my older sister by two years, when I was around...7 or 8 I think. She screamed and killed it, though it was comfortable in my hand for whatever reason. It could have been dying anyway, since it just landed on me fluttering it's wings every so often =/ Yes, I'd say as a child I very much saw the world through emotional and sentimental eyes...but that all changed as life crushed my soul. Ahem. You should let him teach you, it can be enjoyable, or stress inducing. Depends on the type of match, what's at stake, and your opponent. Your evil, scheming, opponent mocking you with his cold dead eyes imploring you to make your move without saying a word. *shivers* That's just humour, but also true.

Anyway, yeah, I hated going out with my family as a kid. Even on holidays I spent my time inside playing my PSP and eating these things called "Doritos Bits", which were oddly addicting. I also loved watching the sunrise, then sleeping the rest of the day. Memories from Mallorca hahaha. I had a few outgoing phases, like even to this day, I teeter between introversion and extroversion, though I lean toward introversion. Anyway, maybe you two can talk out your past if things are still tense. Even if it leads to drama, that might filter out the bad blood. Kind of like a gang war.

You think an ENTJ would be in charge? I can see an INTJ having a leg up, but, an ENTJ more about doing than thinking or masterminding from what I've discovered through my ongoing research. I look at it as mutualistic. If you have an INTP and an ENTJ, the INTP, or maybe even ENTP, would be the Entrepreneur with the initial idea. The ENTJ would be the overall manager directing the vision, which conjures the image of a Field Marshal. I'd say an INTJ would give both types a run for their money, but at the same time would work equally well with an NTP of either leaning, or an ENTJ given their similarities...though there might be pissing contests involved. And it is true, those typed as NTPs hate being bossed around, which again is why Entrepreneurs do well as NTPs moving from enterprise to enterprise as long as they learn to focus like any functioning human can regardless of some test It's also true that they would come up with some great plans, but then want to talk over the options with a partner, romantic or otherwise.

@yassdawg That's a generalization. We all have emotions, even Psychopaths have dull emotions. And as I said, I relate to a lot to do with INTPs, but, I don't fit into types well. If people start thinking like that, you get a retarded dystopia like the Divergence series of films. I could be a Feeler that happens to be emotionally crippled...crushed...like that Ladybug I gave to my sister all those years ago *blurry flashback sequence* Anyway, there are different systems. So, you can have aggressive INTPs. I've known submissive ENTJs, well, sexually submissive "I control everything else, so yeah, I like giving up control in one area." Though, I heard that's common for assertive people to blow off steam. If you tried talking over me, I'd tell you to shut up. My points are usually more important. In fact I get nagged at for talking over others sometimes. I'm really a control freak. Nothing personal though, I'd also have a beer or two with you unless you got sulky over my attitude If you reacted with a tantrum, I'd stand back and let you continue, which is called letting a person hang themselves with their own rope. I swear I am such a Perceiver though. I love possibilities. I love chance.