INTPs and ENTJs?

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Obligatoryusername91

Discussion Starter · Apr 13, 2015 (Edited)

I've read online that one of the best personality types for an INTP to date are an ENTJ, but, I want to know if you think this could also apply to other dynamics such as business partners, friendships and co-workers, or if it is just in a romantic sense, which I doubt could work. I mean, what would put me off, is that a positive listed is that INTPs defer easily to partners. I wouldn't and I'm not the submissive type if that's what that means. I prefer being the dominant person IF a relationship has a sub/dom dynamic. That might be unique to me, or I might have tested as the wrong type, but how are the two types actually supposed to blend well as a whole in a romantic way or as friends? I could see how it could work in business, if an Introvert who happens to be an Entrepreneur has a vision of something on a grand scale and needs a CEO to make that vision a reality, but, besides professionally, how can an INTP and ENTJ blend well? Honestly I can see how an INTP and ENTJ could take over the fucking world combining their "unique" natural talents, but how does that translate into a romantic relationship?

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ArBell

· #14 · Apr 14, 2015

My older brother is INTP and his lack of action frustrates me to no end. He probably gets very annoyed with my forcefulness though so that's that.
I can never really depend on him to do something for me, unless it's a question of life and death.
See, my INTJ dad, and myself, if we say we will do something, we will do it. We honour our words even if it is for banal undertakings. My brother on the other hand, refuses to get bound by any sort of obligation.
Even if he is free for the weekend, he doesn't know exactly what plans he has because he didn't quite plan anything but he likes to keep his options open and more often than not goes out after a 2 min phone call with his friends.
This is really frustrating because I always wanted to get closer to him (age gap between sibblings) but he never really seemed 'up for it'. e.g. I wanted him to teach me how to drive but he told me he didn't have time (which was a lie because he did have time, but just couldn't be arsed to teach me)
I also noticed what @Jordan J talked about; my intp brother says things in a passive aggressive way and this gets on my nerves. Instead of telling me that I am wrong, he will tell me something like, "oh you think you are always so right, how can you always be so sure of yourself, think for a while." And this really really pisses me off. Like, if I am wrong, just tell me why I am wrong so I can just fix it asap, instead of making a personal attack on my whole being.
Now looking back at this, I must say that his constant 'passive aggressive nagging' as I call it, was beneficial to me on the long run as it helped make me a more grounded person, but it certainly didn't help in tightening the sibbling bonds between us.
In some ways I viewed him as quietly selfish. He would do things on a whim and be like "it's now or never, your time to prove yourself begins now. Fail to seize it and you might never get another interaction again".
In other ways he probably thought I was the selfish one, always making plans and not taking his opinions into consideration because he had none at the time I was making them. As kids, he was perfectly content staying at home while I was always asking my parents to be brought out, to explore the world.

My summary is that an ENTJ-INTP relationship can work, but the effort has to come mostly from the INTP. The INTP needs to lower his/her barriers and become more accepting and understanding. ENTJs are not devils (but we don't even try to rebute this perception so it sticks), but once the INTP believes we are, it's very hard to make things work. INTPs think that they have everything figured out (and they probably do) but ENTJs do not realise that they are being such and such. Communication is key, and instead of being passive-aggressive and retreating to their caves, if INTPs spent just an hour more on trying to make things work with an ENTJ, it will.

My brother is I- 60%, N - 33%, T - 40%, P - 30% around there.

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ArBell

· #16 · Apr 14, 2015

Yes he is a real wild card.
He is 11 years older than me, so I guess he was used to being an only child until I came around.
He really did go out of his way to show that we were not close when I was a kid (until I was like 14?) he would give chewing gums to my friends in front of me, then say it's finished when I ask for one; he would always bankrupt me in monopoly and laugh at my frustration; he loved annoying me (jumping in front of me out of darkness/telling me spooky stories/locking me outside the house with the dogs for an hour...)
Don't worry though, I think he's grown out of it now.
But as a kid, I certainly didn't realise that I had this bond with my dad. Looking back, I notice some segments but it really wasn't obvious from a child's perspective.
My brother is great at chess, he even tried to teach me once, but i'm too impatient for it... I'll ask him to teach me again when I go visit him in August

I did learn a few things though, just to try to have more things in common; I learned football (and fought with the guys in my school who wouldn't let me play, or put me as goal keeper), I played online games etc.

We are a lot closer now, I mean, after 19+ years of living with me, he ought to have developed some immunity towards my abrasiveness right?:tongue: But growing up, my dad never showed preference for either of us. He made sure of that, even if i often asked my parents who their favourite child was, and they would explain that we were both equals =p I know I was the spoilt child though, being the youngest and all, but he always got what he wanted too (although he didn't ask as much as I did). I definitely spent more time with my parents than he did, but that was because I am naturally more demanding in that sense. I don't think he would mind spending that time with them, but it's just that he doesn't actively pursue this 'objective' and I guess that my parents just thought/realised that we were different and require different kind of attention. I don't know if he drifted from my dad though, since he was born much earlier than I was.

Let's relate it all back to the topic at hand now:
Sorry, I don't know what to say haha.
I do have a couple of INTP friends, but we're not close. What I can say is that, ENTJ love to delegate work to be done, and INTPs are huge procrastinators. If it is in a business environment and the ENTJ is the boss of the INTP, the INTP will obviously have to do the work. Bt if the ENTJ and INTP are in a group work, i think the INTP will be the one discussing a lot of possibilities and enraging the ENTJ because the ENTJ wants a solution here and now. The INTP doesn't like to be bossed around either, so if both are stubborn, the grade will suffer.
Relationship wise, I am very independent and won't really expect my partner to do things for me, but I will get fed up if he can't plan anything concrete and leaves every decision up to me. I like to give orders and make plans yes, but to show their 'devotion' (care/love), I would want my partner to organise some things on his own and just tell me the plan after he's done organising it. (It's very tricky, coz I don't like surprises so i'd like to know the details, but as far as INTP stereotypes goes, I don't think that an INTP will come up with irrational/stupid plans so that's that.)

I think my conclusion will be that, at first, INTP and ENTJ are an unlikely match. But as they get to know each other more and more, they come to appreciate each other's company/personality better and realise that they are not that different. They both need to put in some effort but it is minimal compared to let's say ENTJ-ESFP coupling.

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ArBell

· #17 · Apr 14, 2015

I forgot to mention something VERY important.
My brother loved to make me look bad when we were kids.
He would be the angel and I would be the mean child.
He would be a people's pleaser and be open to all sorts of discussions while i'll just be sulking in my corner after having been the victim of his one too many pranks.
In the adult's eyes, it was just part of his personality to pull pranks on me, and I was just too rigid to laugh along.
*roll eyes* whatever.

TS, do you have anything to comment on that?

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ArBell

· #23 · Apr 14, 2015

Obligatoryusername91 said:
@ArBell

You think an ENTJ would be in charge? I can see an INTJ having a leg up, but, an ENTJ more about doing than thinking or masterminding from what I've discovered through my ongoing research. I look at it as mutualistic. If you have an INTP and an ENTJ, the INTP, or maybe even ENTP, would be the Entrepreneur with the initial idea. The ENTJ would be the overall manager directing the vision, which conjures the image of a Field Marshal. I'd say an INTJ would give both types a run for their money, but at the same time would work equally well with an NTP of either leaning, or an ENTJ given their similarities...though there might be pissing contests involved. And it is true, those typed as NTPs hate being bossed around, which again is why Entrepreneurs do well as NTPs moving from enterprise to enterprise as long as they learn to focus like any functioning human can regardless of some test It's also true that they would come up with some great plans, but then want to talk over the options with a partner, romantic or otherwise.

INTJs don't want to lead, they will do if there is nobody else capable of doing so, but they'd rather mind their own thing.
The ENTJ wants to pull everyone along to the top.
ENTPs could be in charge, but as you said, the ENTJ will be the one making things happen.
Being the leader doesn't mean being the dictator. It means being the one vouching for the whole group, some form of authority but not the only one. A group work is meant to involve everybody, and INTPs and ENTPs / INTJs would greatly contribute to the discussion, possibly more than an ENTJ would, but the ENTJ would put it all together and come up with a plan, including the result from brainstorming with everyone.
Note that in my original post I didn't say that the ENTJ would be the leader, but I do assume in most circumstances that this is how it will be (based on stats and personal experiences)
I don't think I worked with an ENTP so far, so I can't really comment on that. But I'd say that the ENTJ would lead INTJ and INTP for sure. There is a way to lead INTPs. It isn't by giving orders and expecting them to follow it through, but it's about including them in the discussion and making their input/opinion feel valued and be taken into consideration.
I don't think you are a typical INTP btw, you are are slightly too unyielding.

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ArBell

· #25 · Apr 15, 2015

A very confused person/a psychopath.
I guess it's good/bad that you're on this forum. Good because you might learn more about yourself and others and 'become a better person' (that's why i'm here anyway). Bad because anyone on this forum has a risk of falling even deeper and perpetuating the types stereotypes even more. (Although I don't think it applies in this case)
Which enneagram test did you do? Did you do the one that tells you your health?
That's brutal, getting hit by high heels o.o Didn't you do anything about it?
Do you not follow 'orders' even when you know it's the best/right thing to do? For e.g. go take out the trash as it's your turn this week?

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ArBell

· #27 · Apr 15, 2015

I'll reply in 40 hours or so. Have to finish this coursework.
An apercu:
I understand where you're coming from.
But MBTI exists for a reason. Granted it's not black and white, it is however, the common traits seen in people who have been tested as say, ENTJ. It's not magic, it's science. There are studies that show that ENTJs and ENTPs are the ones most commonly seen in leadership positions at work. (I'll look for that later - somewhere on the ENTJ sub)
If somebody doesn't do something I asked them to do, without any reason/when they could have done it, i'll get frustrated at that moment in time but won't hold it up to them the next time. Unless this reaction becomes repetitive, then I just won't be around that person anymore.

"I feel like I'm being lowered if someone else takes the lead in anything."

ENTJs do not feel the need to lead every time. They take the lead when they believe they are the most suited to be the leader, and conversely, they will accept to be lead by someone who is better suited for the job too.
If you say that you feel that you are being lowered if anyone else takes the lead in "anything", it means that you have serious superiority issues, and since you mentioned it, you view yourself as an alpha male.
I'm not saying this is intrinsically wrong, but it is something you might consider reviewing and working on.
Nobody is perfect and nobody is apt to be the leader in every situation.

I didn't say introverts are inferior. Each types has its pros and lacunas. The book "Quiet" finely demonstrates this point.
The fact that the McDonalds manager possesses/watches child porn is not my concern as far as business goes, as long as he is doing his job correctly, he does whatever he wants in his life. Granted it is a good thing he gets arrested.

You are getting out of context.
I did not say that ENTJs are better. I just said that stats and mbti typing depict the ENTJ as the leader, along with the ENTP.
Stats do not mean 100%, it means the majority. Of course there is some leeway, nobody said there isn't; if they did, they'd be lying/stupid.

You seem to be mixing generality (the point of view i'm coming from) and yourself.
MBTI says that INTPs and ENTJs are a good mix. It doesn't say that you and an ENTJ is a good mix. Everybody is different, and you should see for yourself who you like.

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ArBell

· #33 · Apr 15, 2015

Obligatoryusername91 said:
@ArBell I will be sticking the most important things I want to say for efficiency, and keeping them shorter and to the point.

I will admit, in truth, I enjoy people. I get energy from people. I read people. It's my entertainment. When I answer questions on self tests, they're mostly about how my opinion of people has developed over time. When I was a child, I did dislike being around the less intelligent children, but I will now admit I actually talked to random people a lot a child, though again, I never felt quite right around children when I was a child. But, that is irrelevant. I see things I share in common with ENTPs, but I also see that in INTPs, and I like intelligent, thoughtful people, so I will say that INTP is one of my favourite types, from my interactions with those typed as INTP, and from the description of the type.

Now, you say ENTJs and ENTPs are most common in leadership positions? You must work on your debate skills if you want to be as successful as Merkel, or as her detractors have called her in life "the girl." You've left yourself wide open. You should not have typed that point for the sake of your argument. Look at the world around us, with the types you say, as of yet without proof, in leadership positions. This is why I got my shit together. The world needs a better class of leader. There are also many Sociopaths in power. That is not a good thing. I admire a Germanic leader myself(you probably don't admire Merkel, but just have that quote, but still.)Frederick. You ever study up on Frederick, of Prussia? Frederick the Great? He was a quiet child mostly interested in intellectual pursuits, he only took up leadership when he needed to, but he still accomplished great things, and wrote a book refuting the ideas of Machiavelli. I am guessing he was an Introvert from what I know about him. He preferred his own small circle of people. Enjoyed the company of close friends. Sometimes it's said George Washington was an Introvert, and yes, he did step down when he didn't have to be the leader, just as you described, so you got that right. I could have just said that quantity doesn't mean quality, but, I want you to do the research for yourself. Also, tell me what you think about Octavian(Augustus Caesar), I have trouble placing him as either an Introvert or Extrovert. I sometimes think he was a reserved Extrovert. I don't know if people drained him as such. He could still gain energy from people and be who he was. I find historical cases difficult tbh.

A lot of Introverts, as you said, don't care about leading. That's why the skills as leader an Introvert can have never become known in some teams/organisations. Your quote has something about ambition. Tell me, would you try to pester an Introvert who thought more than he or she spoke, to try and talk over them when they are attempting to lead, and could properly if not being bullied by the power hungry person who thinks they should be in control? No typed ENTJ I have known has been like that, they respect boundaries. If you, personally, thought you could do a better job, would you be rude about it, disrespect the Introvert, and blame it on a typology system? This is not a personal attack. I do not know you. I have disagreed with people who I've also laughed with and worried about. I am just setting up a number of things for you to refute, so I can get a better understanding of what you mean. I will ask you ahead of time, to not get emotional. You can joke like me about muffins, but sadness or raging are not very productive to a debate.

I think ENTJs can be very useful, the traits described at least. But, they are also predictable. The good thing about ENTPs and INTPs is, you won't know where to attack, or where to defend, if they can use their unique method of thinking to be fluid. Formless. Deceptive. That isn't to say that an ENTJ couldn't outsmart or deceive an ENTP or INTP. That an ENTJ or INTJ couldn't be as mentally quick, adaptable, and unpredictable. Still, more of anyone isn't always a good thing. There are more idiots and sheep in the world too. I would say the same if an INTP or an ENTP tried saying the same about their type being more common in leadership(though I know from the admission of INTPs that it would be rare for them.) I spare nobody, not even myself. If an argument has flaws, it has flaws. More simply does not mean they are better at the task, just that they are more drawn to it, and outgoing enough to seize that.

I don't really go by the alpha/beta shit of others, but I know most do and was sarcastically pointing that out, because, to be blunt, people are stupid animals most of the time, though not 100% of the time. In the long term I just prefer being my own boss, and for my future plans, I will need to be the boss of others. But only for my goal. Beyond that, I don't care what other people do, as long as I accomplish what I set out to do. I will also have you know, I am known for following through. Though on things I deem unimportant in the long term, I can be a rebellious asshole. I bet you can be a rebel too sometimes. When you see something as...only slightly important as best. I am enjoying this, a lot. So, I would hope you continue this sparring when you're not otherwise engaged

This discussion seems to be turning into a battle to find who/which type is the cock of the walk.

I admire Merkel, if not, i wouldn't have used her quote on my profile.

You are engaging in some philosophy debate in which i truly have no interest at all, considering I already told you that I understood where you're coming from.

You're turning this discussion into a debate on what is the 'better' type and I will not partake in it.

Don't worry, your passive-aggressive attack didn't offend me. I would not walk over the introverts and make my points come across; I would engage them into the conversation by asking them straightforward questions to try and see whether they have proposals. Then again, person A (me, here) doesn't think too much of her actions, she really wants to involve everybody, because in the long run, for the sake of efficiency, the group would achieve much more when everybody believes they really matter. But person B (let's say, an intp) will view these questions as being too aggressive and oppressing. It all depends on the way the action is being delivered and the way it is interpreted, so you can't come to a generalisation here. I'd have to say though, that the whole ordeal would benefit from some skillfulness and some skin thickness.

Here's the study I was referring to

http://www.truity.com/sites/default/files/PersonalityType-CareerAchievementStudy.pdf
provided by @ouchies , a fellow INTP.

- Still in the process of writing that coursework -

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ArBell

· #36 · Apr 15, 2015

Obligatoryusername91 said:
@ArBell You had an emotional reaction. I warned against that. I was quoting something a teacher once asked our class when talking about management types and teamwork... Aggression of any sort wasn't my intent. If I wanted to be aggressive, trust me, it'd be direct, and you'd know

I'll click on the link later. The fact that you called it passive aggressive and said this seems like a battle shows I won the debate. You feel angry. I can see it even through the text. This in turn makes me angry, you are just like someone I dated, she always took my sparring personally and got mad when to me it's a fun activity that I need to stimulate me.

Oh, what was the emotional reaction you observed? Mind walking me through it, because I can assure you that my heart rate did not oscillate any differently while I was writing my response.

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ArBell

· #37 · Apr 15, 2015

Obligatoryusername91 said:
The fact that you called it passive aggressive and said this seems like a battle shows I won the debate.

This is your battle, it isn't mine.

p.s. you might want to check this out then:
http://personalitycafe.com/entj-forum-executives/514010-when-must-you-lead.html

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ArBell

· #45 · Apr 15, 2015

Obligatoryusername91 said:
@ArBell Don't listen to the flattery of others, you will be taken advantage of as a leader if you let minions an yes men put down those who disagree with you. My point is that you CAN be a great leader, you yourself, but that it will come from you, not your type or anything else. Yes, your type might help, but I mean that some things come from the heart and we must never forget that, we must never forget human dreams and emotions and individuality or we will be left with a Nazi or Soviet type system. I am better at this in person I am too often misread through text, it lacks that which is important to me just as much as the mind: the heart. The symbolic heart we all listen to, no matter how we think.

My only goal in life is to save lives, and, honestly, after that I don't care about being the boss of anyone. I am too ambitious to not want to be my own boss, maybe you are too, but in that case you should understand that. Empathy????

What do you mean the flattery of others? Nobody flatters ENTJs, if you didn't notice. Nobody would tell their ENTJ boss, "you're amazing, i love how ruthless you are". They don't need to anyway.
I achieve what I achieve because of my own doing, if I have to gain the respect of my team one by one, I will do so. I do not depend on minions to do the work for me. The result would just be sheeples. It is much more gratifying, specially in the long run when there is a 1-1 connection.

Yes of course, anybody can be what they want to be. The only difference is that some things come easier to some than others.
You are on perC, an essentially mbti typing forum, and your approach seems to be "i literally don't care about mbti typing because anybody can be whoever they want to be". My stance on that is undecided.

I don't care if i am the boss or not to be honest, as long as I can achieve justice. Now the definition of justice is another thing I don't feel like getting into right now. But if I can't achieve justice because my boss is preventing me from doing so, then I will overthrow the boss.
But in my career field, I will more likely be surrounded by like-minded people and so there will be no need to overthrow the boss. I will more likely have a lot of things to learn from the boss. ENTJs do not like leading/power for the sake of it. (maybe. ESTJs do?) They take the role because they believe they are the person more apt to do it. In a commercial firm for example, the ideal leader would be ENTJ (I don't know ENTP so I'm not commenting on that), because they are driven, confident and insightful. They will sack whoever needs to be sacked for the sake of efficiency.

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ArBell

· #48 · Apr 15, 2015

What's your point?

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ArBell

· #49 · Apr 15, 2015

Obligatoryusername91 said:
I am respected by people, and respect people, but you are just obsessed with your type.

Okay, so you are saying that you should be the supreme leader, because in your opinion people do not respect me and I do not respect people and I am obsessed with my type?
Lol okay.

You are the obsessed one here.
When I said ENTJs are leaders, it was based on stats. I was not saying I am a leader.
My extroversion is very linear.
Now I am not saying I cannot be a leader.
But unlike you, I am not doing 1+1 = 1. I am doing 1+1 = 2.
Here's the difference: I talk about ENTJs in general (1) and I talk about myself (1). But you are just talking about yourself while disagreeing with everything I say. Do you have any facts? Besides your own opinion that is.

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ArBell

· #51 · Apr 15, 2015

You're making this discussion personal and I don't see the point in partaking in it anymore. You can go back to your own little DPRK. @ouchies came in, he said what he had to say. He told me to ignore you and I continued replying. Thus I ignored him.
The fact that you failed to realise that, and went on the defensive saying that i have white "knighters" is irrational.

edit: Nopes whatever @ouchies said has nothing to do with what I said. Read my post #27, where I alluded to the fact that you seem to have superiority issues. Correct me if i'm wrong, but Ouchies' post was #38.

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