INTPs and ENTJs?

I like the idea of them, on paper. I think if I ever actually met one we'd be suitably similar yet utterly dissimilar to keep the relationship dynamic, fluid and engaging. On here? They're (in)famous for having icky, gooey centers. The problem being they also have their guard up by default and you rarely get to know someone well enough on the internet that they'd allow you to see past that, the result is that you're sometimes left feeling like you're dealing with a caricature of an 'alpha' instead of a person which is vexing.

So in a friendship/romantic sense I'd make the investment of getting to know them if you like the idea of a push/pull kinda relationship that might one day evolve into a you-complete-me one. In business they'd always seem like a solid bet cuz they'll fill in your blind spots and vice versa. If you don't wanna make the investment in getting to know them and/or they are incapable of relaxing their guard, ever, I'd avoid them cuz they'll come across in a way that almost seems naturally abrasive to an INTP (or this INTP at least).

@Fredward Again, you can't sum up a person by the result of answering a few questions. I think people who want to fit into a type, adapt their persona to fit that, because they hate the idea of being anything else. It's like what Steven Hawking said about IQ, that only losers care about that stuff. I'd say that what makes an alpha, isn't their preferences in absorbing information or making decisions, it's whether or not they can stand up for what they believe in in their life. I find typology interesting, but, typology is not unanimously accepted as fact. I mean, we still don't even know have of how the brain functions, so all of this is like wild guessing, or astrology to some extent, though I think the typology can decently describe a person, but not always. I once tested as ENTJ, and then again as ENTJ, because I answered questions based on who I felt like at the time. And, I am an adaptable enough person to be who I need to be in whatever role I'm needed for, which is why people respect me, because I can come through. I can also think like a visionary. I also despise most people because their presence annoys me. I can also somewhat read people. I find this interesting, and think that all of this can go some way toward unravelling the secrets of behaviour, along with Neuroscience research, be it is not the be all, end all, and a few letters will never define a person. I see your point though, some who test as ENTJ, might want to wear that mask, and there is the danger: they lose themselves and define themselves by the words of researchers they have never met, in an age where it is guess work at best.

Obligatoryusername91 said:

@ArBell

You think an ENTJ would be in charge? I can see an INTJ having a leg up, but, an ENTJ more about doing than thinking or masterminding from what I've discovered through my ongoing research. I look at it as mutualistic. If you have an INTP and an ENTJ, the INTP, or maybe even ENTP, would be the Entrepreneur with the initial idea. The ENTJ would be the overall manager directing the vision, which conjures the image of a Field Marshal. I'd say an INTJ would give both types a run for their money, but at the same time would work equally well with an NTP of either leaning, or an ENTJ given their similarities...though there might be pissing contests involved. And it is true, those typed as NTPs hate being bossed around, which again is why Entrepreneurs do well as NTPs moving from enterprise to enterprise as long as they learn to focus like any functioning human can regardless of some test It's also true that they would come up with some great plans, but then want to talk over the options with a partner, romantic or otherwise.

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INTJs don't want to lead, they will do if there is nobody else capable of doing so, but they'd rather mind their own thing.
The ENTJ wants to pull everyone along to the top.
ENTPs could be in charge, but as you said, the ENTJ will be the one making things happen.
Being the leader doesn't mean being the dictator. It means being the one vouching for the whole group, some form of authority but not the only one. A group work is meant to involve everybody, and INTPs and ENTPs / INTJs would greatly contribute to the discussion, possibly more than an ENTJ would, but the ENTJ would put it all together and come up with a plan, including the result from brainstorming with everyone.
Note that in my original post I didn't say that the ENTJ would be the leader, but I do assume in most circumstances that this is how it will be (based on stats and personal experiences)
I don't think I worked with an ENTP so far, so I can't really comment on that. But I'd say that the ENTJ would lead INTJ and INTP for sure. There is a way to lead INTPs. It isn't by giving orders and expecting them to follow it through, but it's about including them in the discussion and making their input/opinion feel valued and be taken into consideration.
I don't think you are a typical INTP btw, you are are slightly too unyielding.

@ArBell Yeah definitely nothing typical anything about me. I have a lot of unresolved issues, so that could have something to with my introversion and whatever else. I mean it could have been the getting the shit beaten out of me with a high heel one morning as a kid for laughing too loud at cartoons. Lol my ex Rebecca thinks I'm just evil and chaos incarnate, but really I am big on Perceiving. Someone mentioned I seem more ISTP. I think I have a few selves deep down. You know, the ex did compare me to Joker, so maybe my loving interaction with new people one month, and not giving a shit and wanting to break a neck or two the next, might just be a personality disorder. But nah, I doubt ISTP too. I rely much more on intuition. Truth is I'd rather jump in a volcano than be bossed around btw. I did try it once briefly when I tried the French Foreign Legion, it made my skin crawl. I got out of there asap.

Also, I am known for following through on big plans and promises, though, again, procrastinating sometimes eating a muffin. I was the type that never did homework, but who could somehow charm or unsettle teachers anyway, so they'd avoid talking to me. They knew punishments didn't work so just didn't really care that much. I never learned from being punished. I learned to be more careful. Rebecca and a friend named Suzie both described me as an almost hypnotic leader. I heard that when I go cold, that's when I start to really unsettle people. And when people know me, they either hate me, or know what I am capable of and love me for it, or at least respect me. My solution to deal with people doesn't fit in with established morality, would be a lot more...ruthlessly efficient. In the end though, I have my vision, and I could never wholeheartedly follow anyone. I have my vision for the world, and it will go the way I want it to go, at any cost. No type fits me, my brain really isn't wired that way. I like INTPs though. They're logical and open ended. Just how I like things. I guess a lot of types apply to me at once tbh. Apparently I'm almost 50/50 on the I and E thing, and barely prefer Perceiving over Judging, and there is some Sensor in there. Maybe I'm a new type no system exists to describe. Maybe I'm just me, myself, and I. I did hear I'm intellectually gifted as a teen, as in academically superior and prone to boredom and lack of concentration and all that stuff. That might be a factor that makes me seem like a Perceiver. All of this has to be taken into account with natural intelligence and influences growing up. Oh, I remember showing Extroversion, then being dragged out of the street by my t-shirt because I didn't come in when told to Childhood! That and getting dragged on the floor once in for daring to stay outside, and then the assholes on the street I grew up on refusing to hang out with me because they don't understand me, all could mean that I am in fact messed up. But, what type do you think is lurking behind the fast firing synapses and mental trauma?

@ArBell I think I was like 7 when that happened. I know I got punched in the nose on my 5th birthday for asserting that I wanted to watch Jungle Book when the rest wanted to watch some crap called Curious George. I also vividly remember a pizza being burnt to a black crisp and smoke in the house. yaayyy 5th birthday. Trust me, I'm not a Psychopath. I nearly melt if a dog gives me those puppy eyes, so I'm far from the hardass psychopath type of guy. And yeah that weird one that tells you stuff about health. I answered most of the questions neutrally though because they barely applied either way for me, so, meh. The aggressive thing is something I was arrested over in the past, so I guess that part is true. And I do stand up for myself. Idk. I hate the whole quantifying people thing. I think we're much more fluid...or chaotic than that.

And nah, but I guess I do things for people if they do things for me. For example, I'd turn up the heating if close to it and someone asks, but I'd ask them why the fuck they're not doing what I ask and then never do anything they ask again if they refuse to do something for me. That's not a bad thing, it's fair. And if someone does a favour for me, then I'd do a favour for them. I believe in mutual benefit. I enjoy leading more so than being ordered, though I would say I lead calmly with the tasks to be completed in mind, I'm not authoritarian. I think letting people know they've done good work is important, and that discipline is only needed when people are being wilfully insubordinate. I feel like I'm being lowered if someone else takes the lead in anything. Again, you can't judge by type. You could have a McDonalds Manager that gets arrested for possessing child porn that also tests for ENTJ, because you know, everyone is human and it has nothing to do with intelligence nor potential. Such a manager wouldn't be better than the leader of a country who's an Introvert in their private lives. People can push themselves to be outgoing and then recharge alone. Extroverts can also need time alone. Labels are only good for utility, but, when it comes to the complexity of human beings, they're flawed and subject to change as best. Your gender is female, yeah? Okay, at one point, being female was seen as inferior. That is an example of applying negative connotations to anyone. Say I am introverted, you could say that means a guy is more alpha than me, but what if that same Extrovert has erectile dysfunction and let's his wife control his life? Also, is someone alpha or superior just for testing as ENTJ? If I change, and people do change a lot up to middle age, and end up testing as ENTJ at some point or ENTP, am I better merely for not being an Introvert? If I fuck the wife of an ENTJ while he's getting things done at work, am I more alpha? If I am getting stuff done and a guy fucks someone I'm in a relationship with, is he more alpha? And are people so two dimensional that they must be the same label they've been considered forever and ever and ever? Are people not more complex than that? Can an ENFP not be more alpha than an ENTJ, or an ENFJ be a better Mathematician than an INTP? Do you understand my logic? Say I test as ISTP, does that mean I am any more or any less than who I am now? What if I test as ENTP? INFP? I am trying to explain that this typology is very clever in some ways, but is it an exact science and do the letters define a person???? No.

I'll reply in 40 hours or so. Have to finish this coursework.
An apercu:
I understand where you're coming from.
But MBTI exists for a reason. Granted it's not black and white, it is however, the common traits seen in people who have been tested as say, ENTJ. It's not magic, it's science. There are studies that show that ENTJs and ENTPs are the ones most commonly seen in leadership positions at work. (I'll look for that later - somewhere on the ENTJ sub)
If somebody doesn't do something I asked them to do, without any reason/when they could have done it, i'll get frustrated at that moment in time but won't hold it up to them the next time. Unless this reaction becomes repetitive, then I just won't be around that person anymore.

"I feel like I'm being lowered if someone else takes the lead in anything."

ENTJs do not feel the need to lead every time. They take the lead when they believe they are the most suited to be the leader, and conversely, they will accept to be lead by someone who is better suited for the job too.
If you say that you feel that you are being lowered if anyone else takes the lead in "anything", it means that you have serious superiority issues, and since you mentioned it, you view yourself as an alpha male.
I'm not saying this is intrinsically wrong, but it is something you might consider reviewing and working on.
Nobody is perfect and nobody is apt to be the leader in every situation.

I didn't say introverts are inferior. Each types has its pros and lacunas. The book "Quiet" finely demonstrates this point.
The fact that the McDonalds manager possesses/watches child porn is not my concern as far as business goes, as long as he is doing his job correctly, he does whatever he wants in his life. Granted it is a good thing he gets arrested.

You are getting out of context.
I did not say that ENTJs are better. I just said that stats and mbti typing depict the ENTJ as the leader, along with the ENTP.
Stats do not mean 100%, it means the majority. Of course there is some leeway, nobody said there isn't; if they did, they'd be lying/stupid.

You seem to be mixing generality (the point of view i'm coming from) and yourself.
MBTI says that INTPs and ENTJs are a good mix. It doesn't say that you and an ENTJ is a good mix. Everybody is different, and you should see for yourself who you like.

Adore. Adore adore adore adore, they're so great. They put their heart and soul into things, and though their moral compasses can be a bit lacking at times, they're seriously wonderful people. They're also usually insanely smart and know a ton.

I don't get a lot of "crushes", but at least three of mine have been INTPs. Either way, they're wonderful friends, and I love them just as much as I love INTJs. Which is a lot.



EDIT: This is kind of random, but I always feel rather at home with INTPs. They seem to get me in a way few others do, without having to engage in the same "whaaaaat" of the INTJs. Depending on enneagram, INTxs in general and I get along very well. INTPs supply me with ideas and information, INTJs keep me in line. I will say that I more enjoy the INTP-ENTJ dynamic when working on plans because I'm not a natural at producing ideas- I can brainstorm, but Ne is much more prone to it.

Business relationships: if they stay focused, they're amazing. They can tend to zone out if they get bored, which makes things a bit difficult. But if I do my job right, they work extremely hard
Friendships: love love love love, they're so much fun, the little awkward oddballs <3
Family: same, though no personal experience
Romantic: if they can communicate their emotions, they're great. I've only got experience with a super repressed INTP- so repressed I thought he was an INTJ :tongue:- but the connection was definitely there. I will say that they're less obvious about liking somebody than INTJs are though, and much less straight forward. Which makes things more difficult, because INTJs might eventually get fed up with you, but INTPs will never say a word.

EDIT 2: @Fredward always has really amusing posts, if that's anything to go off.
I mostly just laugh at my INTPs. They use many more s than INTJs, but they're just as fun to tease :kitteh:

@ArBell I will be sticking the most important things I want to say for efficiency, and keeping them shorter and to the point.

I will admit, in truth, I enjoy people. I get energy from people. I read people. It's my entertainment. When I answer questions on self tests, they're mostly about how my opinion of people has developed over time. When I was a child, I did dislike being around the less intelligent children, but I will now admit I actually talked to random people a lot as a child, though again, I never felt quite right around children when I was a child. But, that is irrelevant. I see things I share in common with ENTPs, but I also see that in INTPs, and I like intelligent, thoughtful people, so I will say that INTP is one of my favourite types, from my interactions with those typed as INTP, and from the description of the type.

Now, you say ENTJs and ENTPs are most common in leadership positions? You must work on your debate skills if you want to be as successful as Merkel, or as her detractors have called her in life "the girl." You've left yourself wide open. You should not have typed that point for the sake of your argument. Look at the world around us, with the types you say, as of yet without proof, in leadership positions. This is why I got my shit together. The world needs a better class of leader. There are also many Sociopaths in power. That is not a good thing. I admire a Germanic leader myself(you probably don't admire Merkel, but just have that quote, but still.)Frederick. You ever study up on Frederick, of Prussia? Frederick the Great? He was a quiet child mostly interested in intellectual pursuits, he only took up leadership when he needed to, but he still accomplished great things, and wrote a book refuting the ideas of Machiavelli. I am guessing he was an Introvert from what I know about him. He preferred his own small circle of people. Enjoyed the company of close friends. Sometimes it's said George Washington was an Introvert, and yes, he did step down when he didn't have to be the leader, just as you described, so you got that right. I could have just said that quantity doesn't mean quality, but, I want you to do the research for yourself. Also, tell me what you think about Octavian(Augustus Caesar), I have trouble placing him as either an Introvert or Extrovert. I sometimes think he was a reserved Extrovert. I don't know if people drained him as such. He could still gain energy from people and be who he was. I find historical cases difficult tbh.

A lot of Introverts, as you said, don't care about leading. That's why the skills as leader an Introvert can have never become known in some teams/organisations. Your quote has something about ambition. Tell me, would you try to pester an Introvert who thought more than he or she spoke, to try and talk over them when they are attempting to lead, and could properly if not being bullied by the power hungry person who thinks they should be in control? No typed ENTJ I have known has been like that, they respect boundaries. If you, personally, thought you could do a better job, would you be rude about it, disrespect the Introvert, and blame it on a typology system? This is not a personal attack. I do not know you. I have disagreed with people who I've also laughed with and worried about. I am just setting up a number of things for you to refute, so I can get a better understanding of what you mean. I will ask you ahead of time, to not get emotional. You can joke like me about muffins, but sadness or raging are not very productive to a debate.

I think ENTJs can be very useful, the traits described at least. But, they are also predictable. The good thing about ENTPs and INTPs is, you won't know where to attack, or where to defend, if they can use their unique method of thinking to be fluid. Formless. Deceptive. That isn't to say that an ENTJ couldn't outsmart or deceive an ENTP or INTP. That an ENTJ or INTJ couldn't be as mentally quick, adaptable, and unpredictable. Still, more of anyone isn't always a good thing. There are more idiots and sheep in the world too. I would say the same if an INTP or an ENTP tried saying the same about their type being more common in leadership(though I know from the admission of INTPs that it would be rare for them.) I spare nobody, not even myself. If an argument has flaws, it has flaws. More simply does not mean they are better at the task, just that they are more drawn to it, and outgoing enough to seize that.

I don't really go by the alpha/beta shit of others, but I know most do and was sarcastically pointing that out, because, to be blunt, people are stupid animals most of the time, though not 100% of the time. In the long term I just prefer being my own boss, and for my future plans, I will need to be the boss of others. But only for my goal. Beyond that, I don't care what other people do, as long as I accomplish what I set out to do. I will also have you know, I am known for following through. Though on things I deem unimportant in the long term, I can be a rebellious asshole. I bet you can be a rebel too sometimes. When you see something as...only slightly important as best. I am enjoying this, a lot. So, I would hope you continue this sparring when you're not otherwise engaged

Obligatoryusername91 said:

@ArBell I will be sticking the most important things I want to say for efficiency, and keeping them shorter and to the point.

I will admit, in truth, I enjoy people. I get energy from people. I read people. It's my entertainment. When I answer questions on self tests, they're mostly about how my opinion of people has developed over time. When I was a child, I did dislike being around the less intelligent children, but I will now admit I actually talked to random people a lot a child, though again, I never felt quite right around children when I was a child. But, that is irrelevant. I see things I share in common with ENTPs, but I also see that in INTPs, and I like intelligent, thoughtful people, so I will say that INTP is one of my favourite types, from my interactions with those typed as INTP, and from the description of the type.

Now, you say ENTJs and ENTPs are most common in leadership positions? You must work on your debate skills if you want to be as successful as Merkel, or as her detractors have called her in life "the girl." You've left yourself wide open. You should not have typed that point for the sake of your argument. Look at the world around us, with the types you say, as of yet without proof, in leadership positions. This is why I got my shit together. The world needs a better class of leader. There are also many Sociopaths in power. That is not a good thing. I admire a Germanic leader myself(you probably don't admire Merkel, but just have that quote, but still.)Frederick. You ever study up on Frederick, of Prussia? Frederick the Great? He was a quiet child mostly interested in intellectual pursuits, he only took up leadership when he needed to, but he still accomplished great things, and wrote a book refuting the ideas of Machiavelli. I am guessing he was an Introvert from what I know about him. He preferred his own small circle of people. Enjoyed the company of close friends. Sometimes it's said George Washington was an Introvert, and yes, he did step down when he didn't have to be the leader, just as you described, so you got that right. I could have just said that quantity doesn't mean quality, but, I want you to do the research for yourself. Also, tell me what you think about Octavian(Augustus Caesar), I have trouble placing him as either an Introvert or Extrovert. I sometimes think he was a reserved Extrovert. I don't know if people drained him as such. He could still gain energy from people and be who he was. I find historical cases difficult tbh.

A lot of Introverts, as you said, don't care about leading. That's why the skills as leader an Introvert can have never become known in some teams/organisations. Your quote has something about ambition. Tell me, would you try to pester an Introvert who thought more than he or she spoke, to try and talk over them when they are attempting to lead, and could properly if not being bullied by the power hungry person who thinks they should be in control? No typed ENTJ I have known has been like that, they respect boundaries. If you, personally, thought you could do a better job, would you be rude about it, disrespect the Introvert, and blame it on a typology system? This is not a personal attack. I do not know you. I have disagreed with people who I've also laughed with and worried about. I am just setting up a number of things for you to refute, so I can get a better understanding of what you mean. I will ask you ahead of time, to not get emotional. You can joke like me about muffins, but sadness or raging are not very productive to a debate.

I think ENTJs can be very useful, the traits described at least. But, they are also predictable. The good thing about ENTPs and INTPs is, you won't know where to attack, or where to defend, if they can use their unique method of thinking to be fluid. Formless. Deceptive. That isn't to say that an ENTJ couldn't outsmart or deceive an ENTP or INTP. That an ENTJ or INTJ couldn't be as mentally quick, adaptable, and unpredictable. Still, more of anyone isn't always a good thing. There are more idiots and sheep in the world too. I would say the same if an INTP or an ENTP tried saying the same about their type being more common in leadership(though I know from the admission of INTPs that it would be rare for them.) I spare nobody, not even myself. If an argument has flaws, it has flaws. More simply does not mean they are better at the task, just that they are more drawn to it, and outgoing enough to seize that.

I don't really go by the alpha/beta shit of others, but I know most do and was sarcastically pointing that out, because, to be blunt, people are stupid animals most of the time, though not 100% of the time. In the long term I just prefer being my own boss, and for my future plans, I will need to be the boss of others. But only for my goal. Beyond that, I don't care what other people do, as long as I accomplish what I set out to do. I will also have you know, I am known for following through. Though on things I deem unimportant in the long term, I can be a rebellious asshole. I bet you can be a rebel too sometimes. When you see something as...only slightly important as best. I am enjoying this, a lot. So, I would hope you continue this sparring when you're not otherwise engaged

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This discussion seems to be turning into a battle to find who/which type is the cock of the walk.

I admire Merkel, if not, i wouldn't have used her quote on my profile.

You are engaging in some philosophy debate in which i truly have no interest at all, considering I already told you that I understood where you're coming from.

You're turning this discussion into a debate on what is the 'better' type and I will not partake in it.

Don't worry, your passive-aggressive attack didn't offend me. I would not walk over the introverts and make my points come across; I would engage them into the conversation by asking them straightforward questions to try and see whether they have proposals. Then again, person A (me, here) doesn't think too much of her actions, she really wants to involve everybody, because in the long run, for the sake of efficiency, the group would achieve much more when everybody believes they really matter. But person B (let's say, an intp) will view these questions as being too aggressive and oppressing. It all depends on the way the action is being delivered and the way it is interpreted, so you can't come to a generalisation here. I'd have to say though, that the whole ordeal would benefit from some skillfulness and some skin thickness.

Here's the study I was referring to
http://www.truity.com/sites/default/files/PersonalityType-CareerAchievementStudy.pdf
provided by @ouchies , a fellow INTP.

- Still in the process of writing that coursework -

@ArBell You might not notice, or you might be lying, but you are given irrational responses, which indicates an emotional reaction, taking a quote I was using as an example the negatives of Extrovert leadership, as well as, the negatives of Introverted leadership. My point was that an Extrovert can end up as a bully, and an Introvert a pushover. I even agreed with many of your points while still refuting those I see no logic in at all.

The question of my thread was long ago answered. That indeed, INTPs and ENTJs can blend well. Other questions arose from this, and the one currently on my mind is: does an ENTJ or any Extrovert being more common in leadership, also mean they are better leaders? I think that this can only be decided through the scientific method. You would need to test the efficiency of a team under a leader...and to account for variables, have multiple teams. You would test for monetary savings, morale, speed of work, quality of work and for synergy. You would look at the results. You would then write up a conclusion. And, again, you will not do well if you compare yourself to a type. No matter what I accomplish in life, I will not thank letters, just like I would not thank my star sign, I would thank MYSELF and anyone else involved in the effort. Do you deny this? If so, why? If not, why?

Battle in a fun way, yes. Sparring. Battling. It's all the same type of debate, and this is obviously a debate. Unless you are not you are just trying to dictate and not discuss, then it is a debate, so it is your battle too. Also, I heard Merkel might be ISTJ, is this true? I have also heard her being called an Extrovert, but, I doubt that. She called Barack Obama's friendliness a "charm offensive" after one meeting with him not too long ago, and she was originally a Scientist, which stereotypically would attract a lot of Introverts. I will check your facts in a while. But, you know, it's also not impossible for an Extrovert to be a Scientist. I know outgoing students that are in the sciences. I think Merkel does give off an Introverted vibe though.