[TaylorS]

I'm reading Fact and Fiction in Psychology by Hans Eysenck and he says that stimulants like caffeine and amphetamine-based drugs (Ritalin, etc.) make people more introverted while depressants (like alcohol) make people more extraverted and ties this in with his idea that introverts have a low tolerance to sensory stimulation while extraverts have a high tolerance.

This is pretty old research, but Eysenck's ideas for the neurological basis of Extaversion and Introversion is well accepted nowadays.

This would imply that people with ADHD are extroverted by definition

 

[JungyesMBTIno]

Interesting! It does seem like most of the people I know with AD(H)D are Extraverts, especially Se and Ne doms. I don't think I know any introverts with AD(H)D.

 

[koalaroo]

Interesting! It does seem like most of the people I know with AD(H)D are Extraverts, especially Se and Ne doms. I don't think I know any introverts with AD(H)D.

I actually know a fair few people with ADHD who are introverts.

 

[dilletante]

I believe introverts can have adhd as well as extroverts. I think it is a lack of attention that ritalin serves to focus rather than diminishing excessive extroversion. On another note, for years I tried to drink away my introversion, but all I got were hangovers.

 

[Spades]

Stimulants make me much more hyper and talkative. I think that's the informal way to confirm one doesn't have ADD =P

 

[Black Ronin]

This sounds reasonable. I think you are also overgeneralising a bit, but for the most part, I agree with you.

According to the book 'The Introvert Advantage', introvert's brains operate mostly in high frequency beta waves, while extroverts operate in lower frequency alpha waves. The more relaxed you are, the fewer brainwaves you generate per second and the less likely it is that you'll get overstimulated.

When I drink coffee, my Ti goes on a rampage, but also my Se. If my introspection is right, my Ni and Fe get inhibited a little. I say this because when I'm loaded with caffeine, I think and talk faster, I see sharper and act more impulsive, but it's more difficult to connect the dots and to put myself in other's position.

Alcohol lowers brain activity, including your control mechanisms. This causes you to act without thinking.
Time for some speculation. I'm not going to share my own experiences, but I think Ti and Fi are these control mechanisms. If these introverted judging functions are down, you'll have to resort to your extroverted judging functions (or be braindead). Perhaps this is why alcohol makes you more extroverted in it's own way.


However... when I smoke a joint, I'll definitely become more introverted. I'll become almost totally silent, because I'll operate mostly in Ti and Ni. Cannabinoids are also depressants right?

 

[JungyesMBTIno]

Hmm...stimulants do next to nothing to me and never have for some reason - at most, a lot of caffeine from a huge piece of chocolate cake left me mildly hyper for about 15 minutes...I wouldn't consider myself ADD at all either...quite the contrary, since I'm a very goal oriented person. On second thought, I do know an autistic INTJ with ADD, but I think it's more a side effect of autism than anything type related, since she can go into hyperfocus mode over obsessional interests (quite like myself, even though I'm not autistic).

 

[NeedsNewNameNow]

There is the Inattentive subtype of ADHD which seems to tie in with introversion

 

[dilletante]

There is the Inattentive subtype of ADHD which seems to tie in with introversion

I remember reading something about there being at least four subtypes-but this kind of begs the question of whether ADHD is a mental illness, a different way of learning, a product of food allergies, etc. It seems like some personality descriptions mirror those of AD
HD behavior. Some very successful people have ADHD and view it as a strength due to their hyper-focusing ability
DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria for ADHD

The year 2000 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR) provides criteria for diagnosing ADHD.

The year 2000 Diagnostic & Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR) provides criteria for diagnosing ADHD. The criteria are presented here in modified form in order to make them more accessible to the general public. They are listed here for information purposes and should be used only by trained health care providers to diagnose or treat ADHD.
DSM-IV Criteria for ADHD
I. Either A or B:

1. Six or more of the following symptoms of inattention have been present for at least 6 months to a point that is disruptive and inappropriate for developmental level:

Inattention

1. Often does not give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities.
2. Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities.
3. Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.
4. Often does not follow instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions).
5. Often has trouble organizing activities.
6. Often avoids, dislikes, or doesn't want to do things that take a lot of mental effort for a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).
7. Often loses things needed for tasks and activities (e.g. toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools).
8. Is often easily distracted.
9. Is often forgetful in daily activities.

1. Six or more of the following symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity have been present for at least 6 months to an extent that is disruptive and inappropriate for developmental level:

Hyperactivity

1. Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat.
2. Often gets up from seat when remaining in seat is expected.
3. Often runs about or climbs when and where it is not appropriate (adolescents or adults may feel very restless).
4. Often has trouble playing or enjoying leisure activities quietly.
5. Is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor".
6. Often talks excessively.

Impulsivity

1. Often blurts out answers before questions have been finished.
2. Often has trouble waiting one's turn.
3. Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations or games).

• Some symptoms that cause impairment were present before age 7 years.
• Some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more settings (e.g. at school/work and at home).
• There must be clear evidence of significant impairment in social, school, or work functioning.
• The symptoms do not happen only during the course of a Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Schizophrenia, or other Psychotic Disorder. The symptoms are not better accounted for by another mental disorder (e.g. Mood Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Dissociative Disorder, or a Personality Disorder).

Based on these criteria, three types of ADHD are identified:

• ADHD, Combined Type: if both criteria 1A and 1B are met for the past 6 months
• ADHD, Predominantly Inattentive Type: if criterion 1A is met but criterion 1B is not met for the past six months
• ADHD, Predominantly Hyperactive-Impulsive Type: if Criterion 1B is met but Criterion 1A is not met for the past six months

 

[MonogamyIsNice]

Just no =\

 

[JungyesMBTIno]

That's why Kiersey suspects that Ne and Se doms may be being pathologized with the ADD/ADHD label. I personally think those disorders are waaaaaaaaaaaay misdiagnosed most of the time - most of the people I know with them don't seem to have any real issues - they just aren't compliant to the stupidity we call the educational system (well, mainly that in elementary school, which is when most are "diagnosed"). I even have a cousin who was falsely diagnosed as ADHD AND autistic, even though he's clearly none of those things - my mom thought he was perfectly normal when he came to visit - he doesn't have any debilitating symptoms of anything. My aunt is a drugged up disaster who can't handle any responsibilties, so, need I go any further...

 

[Impact Calculus]

That's why Kiersey suspects that Ne and Se doms may be being pathologized with the ADD/ADHD label. I personally think those disorders are waaaaaaaaaaaay misdiagnosed most of the time - most of the people I know with them don't seem to have any real issues - they just aren't compliant to the stupidity we call the educational system (well, mainly that in elementary school, which is when most are "diagnosed"). I even have a cousin who was falsely diagnosed as ADHD AND autistic, even though he's clearly none of those things - my mom thought he was perfectly normal when he came to visit - he doesn't have any debilitating symptoms of anything. My aunt is a drugged up disaster who can't handle any responsibilties, so, need I go any further...

Learning disabilities don't really correlate with MBTI. People who deal with hyperactivity/impulsiveness will probably will probably have to discover a preference of either strong Se or strong Ne. People who deal with purely inattentiveness will probably have to develop a strong Si or Ni.

This can likely only really happen during your very early years though.


In short:

Learning disabilities come before MBTI preferences develop.

 

[dilletante]

For clarification sake, ADHD is not a learning disability. It certainly can manifest that way, but it affects cognition globally-not just in one area, while also affecting emotion and behavior.

 

[JungyesMBTIno]

Also, disorders do not bring out cognitive function preferences (e.g. someone with AD(H)D isn't going to develop a function to compensate for this - this doesn't make sense, since the defect would serve to make the "preference" defective).

 

[JungyesMBTIno]

And here's some food for thought that I've been pondering vaguely for some time: Could there be a higher correlation between AD(H)D and extraversion due to the fact that extraverts have a more external locus of control than introverts, particularly if their introverted functions are underdeveloped? After all, one of the hallmark characteristics of AD(H)D is being easily distracted by the environment, and healthy extraverts shouldn't really be debilitated by their natural preference, focusing outwardly.

 

[dilletante]

And here's some food for thought that I've been pondering vaguely for some time: Could there be a higher correlation between AD(H)D and extraversion due to the fact that extraverts have a more external locus of control than introverts, particularly if their introverted functions are underdeveloped? After all, one of the hallmark characteristics of AD(H)D is being easily distracted by the environment, and healthy extraverts shouldn't really be debilitated by their natural preference, focusing outwardly.

Would then, under the same reasoning, an introvert be easily distracted by their own thoughts? I think an extravert with ADHD would be much easier to spot because of their disruptive behavior. The introvert would internalize these behaviors and maybe doodle or fantasize.

 

[TaylorS]

That's why Kiersey suspects that Ne and Se doms may be being pathologized with the ADD/ADHD label. I personally think those disorders are waaaaaaaaaaaay misdiagnosed most of the time - most of the people I know with them don't seem to have any real issues - they just aren't compliant to the stupidity we call the educational system (well, mainly that in elementary school, which is when most are "diagnosed"). I even have a cousin who was falsely diagnosed as ADHD AND autistic, even though he's clearly none of those things - my mom thought he was perfectly normal when he came to visit - he doesn't have any debilitating symptoms of anything. My aunt is a drugged up disaster who can't handle any responsibilties, so, need I go any further...

I was diagnosed with Inattentive ADD for a long time before I was correctly diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome because my new pediatrician happened to be one of the best docs for kids with developmental disorders and learning disabilities in the Upper Midwest. I just barely missed qualifying for Autistic Disorder because my speech delay wasn't long enough.

Ritalin does help me concentrate, but, I have noticed, that it also makes me less sociable and more "no-nonsense". The Paxil I take for anxiety and panic attacks, on the other hand, makes me more sociable.

 

[Impact Calculus]

For clarification sake, ADHD is not a learning disability. It certainly can manifest that way, but it affects cognition globally-not just in one area, while also affecting emotion and behavior.

ADHD IS a learning disability. It directly hinders your ability to learn, which indeed, makes it a learning disability.

Uhh. No. It actually goes as far as to impact blood flow in the brain.

You can't cross apply MBTI or Jung here. Sorry.

 

[dilletante]

I would agree with you that ADHD in a way manifests itself as a learning disability, but there are some important differences. Maybe most pertinent to the present discussion is the fact that ADHD is treatable with medication. If the medication works, the academic performance improves. Learning disabilities do not improve with medication, they require a specialized curriculum to address specific problems. Also, you cannot give somebody an academic test to identify ADHD. It would be possible to compare results of an IQ test with overall academic performance, but this is highly imprecise. The most important factor is that ADHD might not affect a students grades. They could learn all the material presented to them in their own way, and test very well. The other behavioral and emotional elements of the disorder may be present in spades, however, and the student may have a personal and emotional life that is very debilitating. All of the above mentioned points are not derived in any way from the MBTI or specifically from anything I know about Jung. That being said, all of modern psychology is indebted to the precedent of Jungian theories.

I think there are some serious problems that are brought up here considering the application of the ADHD diagnosis. As Taylor mentioned, he was misdiagnosed with ADHD and prescribed an amphetamine to treat it. This prescription only served to exacerbate his Asperger's. Another example is that many children who have Bipolar disorder are diagnosed by their pediatrician with ADHD. Amphetamines and Bipolar are a very bad combination, which again exacerbates the underlying condition. It seems like SSRI drugs like Paxil might be a better, safer first line medication when these types of problems arise. Lastly, there are individuals who believe their ADHD is not a weakness, but a special ability that allows them to focus most intensely on the most important tasks, and to not be distracted by the mundane or superfulous elements of life.

 

[Impact Calculus]

I would agree with you that ADHD in a way manifests itself as a learning disability, but there are some important differences. Maybe most pertinent to the present discussion is the fact that ADHD is treatable with medication. If the medication works, the academic performance improves. Learning disabilities do not improve with medication, they require a specialized curriculum to address specific problems. Also, you cannot give somebody an academic test to identify ADHD. It would be possible to compare results of an IQ test with overall academic performance, but this is highly imprecise. The most important factor is that ADHD might not affect a students grades. They could learn all the material presented to them in their own way, and test very well. The other behavioral and emotional elements of the disorder may be present in spades, however, and the student may have a personal and emotional life that is very debilitating. All of the above mentioned points are not derived in