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I have been considering the possibility for some time now and have recently settled on the conclusion that introversion is indeed abnormal or neurotic. Freud shared that opinion. Jung was the first to deem it a normal personality trait, but his opinion was likely biased due to his own preference for introversion.

There is a strong correlation between secure relationship attachment style and extroversion. Introverts are more likely to have an anxious or avoidant attachment style. This makes relationships much more difficult and distressing for them. It makes them less successful at building and maintaining relationships. In essence, it makes them "introverts".
 

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You could go in circles for this.

It doesn't make an introvert pathological because they are more picking and prone to be careful with their emotional relationships.

You're falling into cultural definitions here, which are 100% irrelevant outside of stereotypes and the state of society.

EDIT: Also, there are a HUGE amount of pathological illnesses that are heavily correlated to extroversion as well, so you could draw the same conclusion.

Which makes sense if you ask me--cuz everyone does seem pretty fucking crazy :p
 

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Just when I was beginning to accept the fact that I am normal >_>

I still think that introversion may be normal, I could be biased though. Not all introverts have difficulty in relationships, and not all extroverts have secure relationship attachments. And I remember reading something that said an all extroverted society would be quite a risky place, while an all introverted society would be full of people that don't initiate anything. So I say that both types are normal and needed in order to balance out one another.
 

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I have been considering the possibility for some time now and have recently settled on the conclusion that introversion is indeed abnormal or neurotic. Freud shared that opinion. Jung was the first to deem it a normal personality trait, but his opinion was likely biased due to his own preference for introversion.

There is a strong correlation between secure relationship attachment style and extroversion. Introverts are more likely to have an anxious or avoidant attachment style. This makes relationships much more difficult and distressing for them. It makes them less successful at building and maintaining relationships. In essence, it makes them "introverts".
Yeah, I would have to agree on this point. Introverts turn me on, I think it is a challenge thing, but overall, they are missing out on all the good things life can offer an extrovert. I think taking courses, like on public speaking, I told one of my girlfriends to join toastmasters, for instance, she won't, really helps quiet introverts get over their fear of communicating with people. I had to learn public speaking in college, and sometimes how it went is the teach would just pick someone random, no script, no outline, to go up and speak to the whole class. That was hardcore breaking fears for me. I finally got to the point I would go up and didn't give a damn anymore. Anyway, that's my trick. Now I am active in my church and have no problem speaking in front of people.
 

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I have settled on the conclusion that introversion is indeed abnormal or neurotic. It makes them less successful at building and maintaining relationships.
*Face planted firmly in palm* Normalcy is essentially a mathematical phenomenon, not an objective measure or "universal truth" of the human condition. And guess what? There are a shitload of introverts out there...so seriously, go f*** yourself.

Oh, does it make them less successful? Don't you have to try something to succeed or fail at it? Speaking for myself I've had and have some very "successful" relationships. But no, I don't have any interest in having 3,000 acquaintances whom I have to chat up every time we happen to bump into each other. Myriad meaningless relationships hold no value to me. I have other, more important (to me), shit to do.

overall, they are missing out on all the good things life can offer an extrovert.
You assume that introverts desire and are afforded the same satisfaction that you derive from these "good things". That simply isn't the case. I have extrovert friends that I watch light up in certain situations and get all dopamine-y. Whereas I stand there tolerating the madness because I care about my friend and appreciate that it is making them happy. Doesn't mean I want to participate or that I would feel good if I would just "try". I have tried, and I have found out what I like and don't like.

While we're on the topic, since when does gaining or losing energy through social interaction have any bearing on whether or not you are shy? I'm definitely introverted, but I'm not shy at all. I have no problem whatsoever with social interaction, or public speaking, or whatever the hell you want to call being "outgoing". But it gets old after a while. I don't need it all the time. And you know what? Here's the other side of the coin: What the hell is wrong with people who need constant validation from others? You can't be happy by yourself for 15 minutes? Do you always need the approval of your harem of casual acquaintances (who, by the way, are talking shit about you behind your back) in order to feel good about yourself?

Cat Argument Invalid.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #6
You could go in circles for this.

It doesn't make an introvert pathological because they are more picking and prone to be careful with their emotional relationships.

You're falling into cultural definitions here, which are 100% irrelevant outside of stereotypes and the state of society.

EDIT: Also, there are a HUGE amount of pathological illnesses that are heavily correlated to extroversion as well, so you could draw the same conclusion.

Which makes sense if you ask me--cuz everyone does seem pretty fucking crazy :p
I am not even referring to the specific illnesses that are correlated to introversion or extroversion. My focus is attachment style. Introverts are much more prone to having a non-secure, non-healthy attachment style. I think this is a telling fact. Humans, even "introverts", are social creatures.

My boyfriend, an ENTP, is very careful and selective with his emotional relationships, but he doesn't use that as an excuse to avoid them altogether like INTPs have a tendency to do. His attachment style is secure, and he is able to easily build relationships.

My attachment style is anxious, and intimate relationships are very difficult for me. If I am completely honest with myself, I acknowledge this is the main reason I keep people at a distance. I simply lack the skills required to form lasting friendships.
 

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*Face planted firmly in palm* Normalcy is essentially a mathematical phenomenon, not an objective measure or "universal truth" of the human condition. And guess what? There are a shitload of introverts out there...so seriously, go f*** yourself.

Oh, does it make them less successful? Don't you have to try something to succeed or fail at it? Speaking for myself I've had and have some very "successful" relationships. But no, I don't have any interest in having 3,000 acquaintances whom I have to chat up every time we happen to bump into each other. Myriad meaningless relationships hold no value to me. I have other, more important (to me), shit to do.



You assume that introverts desire and are afforded the same satisfaction that you derive from these "good things". That simply isn't the case. I have extrovert friends that I watch light up in certain situations and get all dopamine-y. Whereas I stand there tolerating the madness because I care about my friend and appreciate that it is making them happy. Doesn't mean I want to participate or that I would feel good if I would just "try". I have tried, and I have found out what I like and don't like.

While we're on the topic, since when does gaining or losing energy through social interaction have any bearing on whether or not you are shy? I'm definitely introverted, but I'm not shy at all. I have no problem whatsoever with social interaction, or public speaking, or whatever the hell you want to call being "outgoing". But it gets old after a while. I don't need it all the time. And you know what? Here's the other side of the coin: What the hell is wrong with people who need constant validation from others? You can't be happy by yourself for 15 minutes? Do you always need the approval of your harem of casual acquaintances (who, by the way, are talking shit about you behind your back) in order to feel good about yourself?

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yessss, the girl posseee is totally annoying I get that, since I'm a girl. Okay, but isn't it a bit selfish, just being an observer all the time. What about the "I'm a nice guy, but screw you if you should think I am an elite snob, you're misperception=not my problem" Is that the vibe you want to convey? I like to think about how I am projecting outward so I can have a warmer effect on people. But hey, maybe I'm a bleeding heart, eh????????
 

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Discussion Starter #8
*Face planted firmly in palm* Normalcy is essentially a mathematical phenomenon, not an objective measure or "universal truth" of the human condition. And guess what? There are a shitload of introverts out there...so seriously, go f*** yourself.

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I was hoping to have an objective discussion on introversion, and this is your response? I obviously struck a nerve, and "methinks thou dost protest too much."
 

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Okay, but isn't it a bit selfish, just being an observer all the time.
1) I don't just observe all the time. I actually enjoy social interaction, just not with the same frequency and, 2) It's no more or no less selfish than expecting me to act all "extrovert-y" just because that's your expectation.

What about the "I'm a nice guy, but screw you if you should think I am an elite snob, you're misperception=not my problem" Is that the vibe you want to convey? I like to think about how I am projecting outward so I can have a warmer effect on people. But hey, maybe I'm a bleeding heart, eh????????
To answer your question...sometimes yes. There are situations where IDGAF if people think IDGAF. But that isn't most of the time. I do engage people, I just need to go home after a while.
 

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I was hoping to have an objective discussion on introversion, and this is your response? I obviously struck a nerve, and "methinks thou dost protest too much."
No, you just so happened to be the unlucky one who was the straw that broke the "oh, woe is me for being INTP" back. Sorry about that. There just needs to be a little more pride around these parts sometimes. But to be fair, you didn't define "introvert" very well or explain your argument much more than "I think famous guy X agreed with me, and, oh yeah, introverts don't attach or build relationships in a healthy way." Uh, ok.
 

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I have no problems making relationships with people. I have no problem speaking up. I just don't want to. My most comfortable state of mind is where I am within my head, with my own thoughts. I don't want nor need people to make me feel good about myself or make me happy. That's not to say I don't enjoy being around my friends. I love my friends, and I love spending time with them. But most people irritate me, and that's probably because I live in *******-ville. But I've always been a quiet, keep to myself kind of person. I don't see how that could make me abnormal. Who's to say what's "normal" anyway?

I don't envy extroverts. Honestly, I'm very, very proud to be an INTP. It's difficult at times, but it's wonderful. I'd rather be "abnormal" and introverted than "normal" and extroverted any day.
 

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I have no problems making relationships with people. I have no problem speaking up. I just don't want to. My most comfortable state of mind is where I am within my head, with my own thoughts. I don't want nor need people to make me feel good about myself or make me happy. That's not to say I don't enjoy being around my friends. I love my friends, and I love spending time with them. But most people irritate me, and that's probably because I live in *******-ville. But I've always been a quiet, keep to myself kind of person. I don't see how that could make me abnormal. Who's to say what's "normal" anyway?

I don't envy extroverts. Honestly, I'm very, very proud to be an INTP. It's difficult at times, but it's wonderful. I'd rather be "abnormal" and introverted than "normal" and extroverted any day.
I understand this. I get a bit worn when I am with people too much that seem to drain me with their issues and dramas. I did not want to come across over harsh in my previous post about this introversion being a terrible thing. There is a time for everything, after all. It's just, that I relate to the action world of reaching out to people better. It is truly only one perspective, and if I only come from that one perspective and think everyone should be on the exact same channel as me, well then who's selfish now? Yes, that would be me. I hate when that happens.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
No, you just so happened to be the unlucky one who was the straw that broke the "oh, woe is me for being INTP" back. Sorry about that. There just needs to be a little more pride around these parts sometimes. But to be fair, you didn't define "introvert" very well or explain your argument much more than "I think famous guy X agreed with me, and, oh yeah, introverts don't attach or build relationships in a healthy way." Uh, ok.
You're right. I was feeling too lazy to fully explain the reasons for my position. I was hoping that my logic could easily be followed without having to do all that. It's an idea I've been piecing together for the past two years, so I'm not sure I can even explain it coherently..
 

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I don't see the correlation you're making between attachment styles and introversion/extroversion. While I don't disagree that there might be one, it is hardly a reason to imply introversion is causing unhealthy behaviors in relationships.

The concept of pure introversion is probably unattainable by most human beings, because it's impossible to shut down the external world. So you need to see introversion and extroversion as preferences, not immutable conditions of the mind. We aren't constantly on an introverted or extroverted state.

I can see it becoming pathological in extreme cases – and the probability of it happening with an introvert is bigger because there's a lot of social pressure on the individual, but not the other way around, which may cause them to disconnect – but that doesn't make the preference for introversion pathological.

And, to be honest, Freud was always quick to dismiss anything involving the unconscious, as he believed it was just a place that stored repressed childhood wishes and memories. I wouldn't count on his opinion on this. If you read the letters he exchanged with Jung, it's rather silly actually. It looks quite like this:

Jung: You know, I was studying about this "introversion" of libido...
Freud: Yeah, it's a common pathological condition.
Jung: I know, but I was just thinking that it may be a way to reach the unconscious mind and...
Freud: Nope, just a pathology.
Jung: But the unconscious fantasies could reveal some pretty relevant stuff about the...
Freud: Pathology.
Jung: Even if...
Freud: Sorry man, can't talk with you right now. There's a patient here complaining of leg pain, and I think it's because he wants to sleep with his mother.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I have no problems making relationships with people. I have no problem speaking up. I just don't want to. My most comfortable state of mind is where I am within my head, with my own thoughts.
That's what I've always told myself, too, but it's not really true. (I'm not saying that it's not true for you. It could be.) The truth is I feel most content inside my own head simply because it's what I'm used to. I'm not used to dealing with people; it makes me feel uncomfortable. I was alone so often throughout my early childhood and adolescence that I just learned to adapt. Being inside my own mind, thinking was my main source of stimulation. This is the reason my preference is introversion.
 

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I don't see the correlation you're making between attachment styles and introversion/extroversion. While I don't disagree that there might be one, it is hardly a reason to imply introversion is causing unhealthy behaviors in relationships.

The concept of pure introversion is probably unattainable by most human beings, because it's impossible to shut down the external world. So you need to see introversion and extroversion as preferences, not immutable conditions of the mind. We aren't constantly on an introverted or extroverted state.

I can see it becoming pathological in extreme cases – and the probability of it happening with an introvert is bigger because there's a lot of social pressure on the individual, but not the other way around, which may cause them to disconnect – but that doesn't make the preference for introversion pathological.

And, to be honest, Freud was always quick to dismiss anything involving the unconscious, as he believed it was just a place that stored repressed childhood wishes and memories. I wouldn't count on his opinion on this. If you read the letters he exchanged with Jung, it's rather silly actually. It looks quite like this:

Jung: You know, I was studying about this "introversion" of libido...
Freud: Yeah, it's a common pathological condition.
Jung: I know, but I was just thinking that it may be a way to reach the unconscious mind and...
Freud: Nope, just a pathology.
Jung: But the unconscious fantasies could reveal some pretty relevant stuff about the...
Freud: Pathology.
Jung: Even if...
Freud: Sorry man, can't talk with you right now. There's a patient here complaining of leg pain, and I think it's because he wants to sleep with his mother.
If I think of the people I know... The introverts tend to either have a history of abuse or a predisposition to depression. The most stable, well-adapted ones are extroverted. I'm not talking about three or four people. I'm thinking of at least fifteen or more.
 

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That's what I've always told myself, too, but it's not really true. (I'm not saying that it's not true for you. It could be.) The truth is I feel most content inside my own head simply because it's what I'm used to. I'm not used to dealing with people; it makes me feel uncomfortable. I was alone so often throughout my early childhood and adolescence that I just learned to adapt. Being inside my own mind, thinking was my main source of stimulation. This is the reason my preference is introversion.
I think this all ties back to nature vs nurture. I can understand why certain life experiences can mold a person to be a certain way, but there are also genetic factors that tie into it as well. Personally, I was always around people as a child. I was encouraged to be outgoing and be extroverted. I do believe my brother did help shape me in a way, as he often put me down, but from what I can tell, it's mostly just the way I function naturally. My parents are both introverts, so maybe genetics has some kind of play into that. But really, there's not a way to tell whether certain behavior is "normal" unless it's in the case of an actual psychological disease. I don't believe introversion to be a disease, and even if it was, it's not a harmful one. It's just a way of life. Some embrace it. Others strive to change it. Either way, it's just all a part of who you are. (My opinion.)
 

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I have been considering the possibility for some time now and have recently settled on the conclusion that introversion is indeed abnormal or neurotic. Freud shared that opinion. Jung was the first to deem it a normal personality trait, but his opinion was likely biased due to his own preference for introversion.

There is a strong correlation between secure relationship attachment style and extroversion. Introverts are more likely to have an anxious or avoidant attachment style. This makes relationships much more difficult and distressing for them. It makes them less successful at building and maintaining relationships. In essence, it makes them "introverts".
you claim jung could of been bias, Surely if jung was bias, then freud would of been bias also, which is why he believes what he does, because of his extroversion.

"Less successful at building and maintaining relationships" according to the survey that was on this forum a while back, the amount of people having introverted best friends, far outweighted those who has extroverted best friends. If being introverted is such a preventative thing in friendships and relationships, why do people feel closest and understand more, with an Introverted friend rather than a extroverted one.
 

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Yeah, I would have to agree on this point. Introverts turn me on, I think it is a challenge thing, but overall, they are missing out on all the good things life can offer an extrovert. I think taking courses, like on public speaking, I told one of my girlfriends to join toastmasters, for instance, she won't, really helps quiet introverts get over their fear of communicating with people. I had to learn public speaking in college, and sometimes how it went is the teach would just pick someone random, no script, no outline, to go up and speak to the whole class. That was hardcore breaking fears for me. I finally got to the point I would go up and didn't give a damn anymore. Anyway, that's my trick. Now I am active in my church and have no problem speaking in front of people.
What about reading books? Staying inside and curling up in a blanket with a mug of hot chocolate on a snowed-out day? Working on creating artwork for four hours? Improvising music? I find those things extremely rewarding, however, some extroverts may not think so.
Introverts don't necessarily don't have a fear of communicating with people. Some of them were just inclined to not communicate when they were younger, and never built up the skills to do so.
I've never had stage fright or anything like that. It's more a question of self-consciousness. Plenty of extraverts that I know are extremely self conscious. I also know plenty of introverted people who are self-conscious. That has nothing to do with I vs E.

yessss, the girl posseee is totally annoying I get that, since I'm a girl. Okay, but isn't it a bit selfish, just being an observer all the time. What about the "I'm a nice guy, but screw you if you should think I am an elite snob, you're misperception=not my problem" Is that the vibe you want to convey? I like to think about how I am projecting outward so I can have a warmer effect on people. But hey, maybe I'm a bleeding heart, eh????????
Homophone. "Your" not "You're"
Sorry, couldn't help it, INTP here. :tongue:
You're talking about really drawn-in people, not introverts. What's selfish about not talking all the time? Some introverts feel like it's not their place to be talking, such as my ISFJ friend. She doesn't want to intrude on anyone's conversations.
Some people just talk too much, seriously. They end up dominating the discussion, and then everyone follows them because of the "mob mentality" sort of thing. People tend to follow the person who speaks first.
Also, people "projecting outward" as you call it is really annoying to some introverts, sometimes.
You seem like you've had some sort of bad experience with introverts, judging by your example "I'm a nice guy, but screw you if you should think I am an elite snob..." I haven't heard that from any well-balanced introvert that I've known. I have a friend (who admittedly seems like a schizoid most of the time) who has that sort of aura, but she's incredibly unbalanced, and her family is going through a tough time at the moment because of the economy.

I have been considering the possibility for some time now and have recently settled on the conclusion that introversion is indeed abnormal or neurotic. Freud shared that opinion. Jung was the first to deem it a normal personality trait, but his opinion was likely biased due to his own preference for introversion.

There is a strong correlation between secure relationship attachment style and extroversion. Introverts are more likely to have an anxious or avoidant attachment style. This makes relationships much more difficult and distressing for them. It makes them less successful at building and maintaining relationships. In essence, it makes them "introverts".
Yes, because we must follow the all-knowing word of Freudian theory. :p
Although, I'm fine with being abnormal. Plus, introverts tend to be more creative. :tongue:
I actually got sick once from extraverting too much, I think. I'm also quite avoidant (working on that, somewhat successfully). Although, I've known introverts who have had successful relationships. From personal experience and observations, I feel like introverts' relationships last longer and more successfully.

That's what I've always told myself, too, but it's not really true. (I'm not saying that it's not true for you. It could be.) The truth is I feel most content inside my own head simply because it's what I'm used to. I'm not used to dealing with people; it makes me feel uncomfortable. I was alone so often throughout my early childhood and adolescence that I just learned to adapt. Being inside my own mind, thinking was my main source of stimulation. This is the reason my preference is introversion.
Well, I'm the oldest child in my family, so I was usually with my grandparents because my mother and father both worked at the time. When my younger sister (two years younger than me) was born, my mom decided to stay at home and take care of us. Both of my younger sisters are extraverts.
I think there was a poll that showed that INTPs were often the eldest in a family.
Do you have any siblings who were in the same situation as you? Are they also introverts? Perhaps a study should be done on the subject, if it hasn't already. Maybe we should have a poll.
 

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If something wiped out 90% of the world's population and there were many miles between each small isolated group of people, who would be the most balanced and stable then?

The world hasn't always been overpopulated and so, I doubt introverts have always been at a disadvantage. Not fitting into the circumstances doesn't mean somethings wrong.
 
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