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MOTM Feb 2012
ISTJ 9w1
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What does Lenore mean when she says "Introverted Feeling"?
(Often abbreviated "Fi")​

Quasi-defining statements
p. 41: "When we use Feeling in an Introverted way, it operates as a kind of inner flame--a sense of personal values that may be difficult to explain or express directly but whose character informs our choices and inclinations."
p. 366: "Introverted Feeling ... encourages a personal relationship to an evolving pattern, a will to gauge the situation by an experiential ideal. For example, if we use Introverted Feeling to make a good spaghetti sauce, we won't follow recipes or measure ingredients. We'll sample the sauce as we're making it, gauging its taste, smell, and texture by their ideal outcome and adjusting for circumstantial variables so the emerging pattern stays on track."
p. 367: "To invoke Introverted Feeling, we have to know the difference between a good outcome and a bad one--know with our senses, in our bones [on the basis of living, breathing, first-hand experience]."
p. 370: "Introverted Feeling relies on the inward, right-brain criteria of experience and empathy to mark off decisions that go beyond our roles in society to affect us as human beings. Law and custom, after all, are the lowest common denominator of a defined community. We associate character and humane behavior with the moral imperatives shaped by inner values."
p. 371: "An inner point of reference, one trained by personal experience. [Bypassing matters of social standing] to focus on the quintessentially human."

Proposed definition #1
Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the attitude that everything that is manifest (apparent, observable, described) is the expression of a soul or life force, in terms of which everything ultimately makes sense. Everything that happens is the result of a soul expressing its unique nature.

From this attitude, each living thing is completely unique, and has unique needs. Every living thing needs to express itself and grow in its unique way. None of this can be put into categories or measurements, at least not without blotting out that utter uniqueness of each living thing. Because we are all living things, even though each of us is unique we can still connect to the life force as it exists in others. From an Fi standpoint, the way to respond to things is in a way that is faithful to that underlying life force.

Proposed definition #2
Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the attitude of judging things good or bad based on how they harmonize or clash with a living being's inner essence. That inner essence or soul, and how things in the environment get along with it or conflict with it, is knowable only first-hand--ultimately, only by that soul. It is known by attending to one's own emotions in response to things. What you like is good--for you, not necessarily good for others. What you don't like is bad--for you, not necessarily bad for others. Anything outside your own soul is irrelevant to evaluating anything or choosing your course in life.

As a language of Ego Orientation
As a Dominant Function, Fi leads IFPs to live a life based on empathy and harmony between self and others--and/or to see life as a never-ending conflict between souls that are intrinsically different and opposed. ISFPs typically seek out a space in which they can be completely and spontaneously themselves, following their artistic impulses without regard to social expectation or definition of any sort. Some do their best to live life as a soap opera: creating and living out intense drama wherever they go. INFPs typically seek to understand the world in terms of drama, emotion, and people seeking their own unique callings (perhaps Garrison Keillor is a good example of that). Some, like John Gray, attempt to help others understand each other through empathy with each other's differences, and thereby find peace and synergy.

Developed Fi naturally leads people to favor mercy or forgiveness for people who have done heinous acts--anything from theft to murder to genocide--acts that, under the ordinary laws that make a society manageable (see Extraverted Thinking), would usually merit their imprisonment or execution. From a developed Fi perspective, the criminal is still a living soul, still unique and precious despite whatever he may have done. If we walked in his moccasins for a while, maybe we could see it his way. Without condoning his crimes, maybe we could see how we ourselves could have done the same things under similar circumstances. This use of empathy as one's ultimate anchor of orientation leads to a resolute non-judgementalness. First empathize--find something in your own heart that lets you see how someone could feel and act the way he did--and then you will probably find that you no longer feel hatred or a desire for retribution.

As a Secondary Function, Fi typically leads EFPs to tune into the unmet needs and callings of others--as an avenue to making a sale, as a way to intuit what would entertain people, as a channel to political gain by demonstrating that you understand people's pain (e.g. Bill Clinton), as a way to chart a course through life based on a calling felt to be unique to them. Sometimes it leads them to sense a higher calling to answer to, a sense that their actions have cosmic meaning by virtue of how they aid or hinder life.

As a Tertiary Function, Fi typically leads ITJs to retreat into solitary actions that have no constructive worldly effect but are aimed at providing a justification for calling themselves good people. Another example is obsession with the purity of one's soul. For example, being a vegetarian while working at Taco Bell--not out of any great love for animals (the person might hardly know anything about what cows are like), but to be able to say, "Well, at least I never ate any animals." Or engaging in pointless acts of honor, like maintaining super-self-control or "doing one's duty" or going down with the ship. Nothing is gained by going down with the ship; it's a hyper-introverted act aimed at providing a rationalization for one's goodness without regard to real-world consequences. Nearly all of these tertiary-Fi acts involve refraining from action viewed as unethical rather than taking positive action that would accomplish something. They're a retreat from the world--or rather, a rationalization for disregarding worldly matters.

As an Inferior Function, Fi typically leads ETJs to acts of self-destructive hedonism, creation of opera-like drama in their lives and the lives of those around them, obsession with "integrity" (like going down with the ship), instant and irresponsible abandonment of anything they don't like (the opposite of going down with the ship), and bizarre solitary acts of atonement for the harms they've done to others. Sometimes inferior-Fi leads ETJs to preach and even practice a sort of hyper-selfishness, e.g. Ayn Rand and the Landmark Forum. "I'm doing fine, so why should I give a damn about you?" (Very different from highly developed Fi, which leads you to see all people as connected and the highest joy of life as the experience of that connection.)

Tertiary and inferior Fi also sometimes lead TJs to view large numbers of people as "troglodytes": soulless or stupid creatures whose rotten situations in life derive only from their own intrinsic rottenness-of-soul. To take a comic example, Lex Luthor's lamentation in Superman, "Why is the world's greatest criminal genius surrounded by nincompoops?"

Perhaps the most typical manifestation of tertiary and inferior Fi is an attitude of psychologizing other people: a sort of pseudo-empathy in which one explains other people's behavior in terms of pitiful needs and psychological flaws that anyone would be ashamed to have. "Notice the defensiveness. He clings desperately to his ideas. Such weakness." (Nearly all psychological theories offer plenty of ammo for psychologizing, including Lenore Thomson's ideas.) Where developed Fi leads you to find something in your own soul in terms of which to truly understand someone else and see things their way, tertiary and inferior Fi typically lead you to find something in your own soul that you despise, in terms of which you can "explain" them and justify putting them down.
Naturally, you can see plenty of dominant-style Fi in ETJs, secondary-style Fi in IFPs, and so on--even inferior-style Fi in IFPs.

Introverted feeling is judgement with an emotional slant that causes the individual to view the object on a Subjective level. It is primarily a silent inaccessible function that is difficult to conceptualize. Therefore, unlike its extraverted counterpart, Extraverted Feeling, it is entirely individualistic, with a leaning toward the mystical. Introverted feeling is generally disconnected with typical external stimuli. Introverted feeling is only concerned with the external to the extent that the object has some relevance to a deep, internal value. Its primary objective is to harmonize ideologies, concepts, relationships etc. with the internal guiding force.

Whatever the individual values the most will dominate the motivations, goals and chief objectives of the individual. For example, if the primary value is God, then all other values will find themselves inexorably subjugated to this primary one. Often, unbalanced introverted feeling will create in the individual dramatic mood swings and decisions based on illogical rationales. However, at its best, introverted feeling provides a navigational quality that creates in the personality tenacity, idealism, honor, relationship wisdom and a unfaltering value system that is seldom compromised.
ROBERT BROOKS,INFP

Introverted feeling is a counterpart to Extroverted thinking, as are all inferior elements to the dominant. Everyone attempts to accomplish the inferior through the dominant. By following first principles and proverbial logic (Te) i.e. literal proverbs, they accomplish being "good"(Fi). Though the elements look different they simply reverse the horse and carriage. An Fi will look at a business tycoon and blame them for the state of the poor. A Te realizes that simply feeling bad for the poor won't accomplish anything, because you can't take emotions to the bank (a common Te proverb) you need to actually DO something. Even if you don't FEEL for them, building a huge corporation and then donating your equity to charity is worth more than a single person volunteering their entire life. For this reason, even though still hated by a generally large amount of people, Bill Gates (textbook ENTJ according to typology forums) is more effective in donating ~$30 billion to build business around the globe for the poor and promoting philanthrocapitalism than an army of Mother Teresa's.

ENTJ pitifully trying to justify a future life of corporation building, puppy kicking, soul atoning.

Lenore Thomson demonstrates strongly the quintessential ST personality.

(Source)

Discuss! :happy:
 

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I have encountered some ITJs that use the psychologizing to put opponents down, protecting themselves behind the notion that others are idiots or typist. Also, the "selfishness" of ETJs are prevalent in many ETJs I know very well (incl. brother).

Te-types are very efficient, even when using the brain they use a very small, simplified, efficient loop. When you exclude a lot of holistic input, like feelings and harmony it is easier to make efficient decisions.

Fi is still sort of a mystery to me, since it is based on PERSONAL values and you cannot deduce them our anticipate them easily. From my experience, Fi-types are the "most emotionally intense" too, for good or bad. Myself, I have been called "too logical, psychopath, robot, too calm, damage from birth" etc. by Fi users that find my Zen troubling...
 

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Wow, had to post on this one!

These article excerpts speak to me. In 2000, my Fi slowly started rolling in, and as it did, I became aware of my own likes and dislikes and my own values. Becoming a Christian correlated to my understanding that to be true to myself, living my values was paramount. But also, it came with a deep respect for individuality. Even though a few people didn't understand me, and in fact, even sought to undermine my personal and spiritual growth, I slowly began to seek new experiences and friendships that were based on my own values. I also started writing in earnest at that time.

However, as an extrovert, I was super-aware of the displeasure or disapproval of people who were important to me, so I often disregarded my own needs to make them 'comfortable.'

In 2008, my Fi kicked in bigtime when a sudden, sharp incident showed me that, for good or for evil, other people lived boldly by their own values every day, even to the point of devastating lives. I had spent 43 extroverted years being focused on others' goals, values, desires, needs and feelings, while feeling more and more lonely and less accomplished. And then add to that, a clear understanding that no matter what you put in, other people influence the outcomes. I felt like my efforts in life had been fruitless.

Reacting to assuage other's anger, taking counsel from well-meaning friends, backpedaling to try undue damage that others had created in my life, and finally, meeting everyone else where they were, had not helped them grow and it had not helped me because I was stuck. So the Fi questions: What do I believe? What do I want? What do I need? all tumbled through my mind day and night and I became very isolated considering them. This inner reflection has continued to this day and effected relationships to some extent, but I'm ok with that.

I have a conscious awareness and depth of understanding for people. Each person has his or her own drives, sins, worldview, etc, and has personal desires and growth needed, just as I do. We are each trying to get through life, hoping to find personal joys and to overcome obstacles and setbacks. I test as an INFP at times now and I can see why. My intuiton is stronger than ever and so is my desire to create artistically. I allow myself plenty of time in my inner world. I still bust out as an ENFP, because I like to entertain and lighten things up and I desire harmonious relationships but I care a lot less than I used to, whether people understand me.
 

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I have encountered some ITJs that use the psychologizing to put opponents down, protecting themselves behind the notion that others are idiots or typist. Also, the "selfishness" of ETJs are prevalent in many ETJs I know very well (incl. brother).

Te-types are very efficient, even when using the brain they use a very small, simplified, efficient loop. When you exclude a lot of holistic input, like feelings and harmony it is easier to make efficient decisions.

Fi is still sort of a mystery to me, since it is based on PERSONAL values and you cannot deduce them our anticipate them easily. From my experience, Fi-types are the "most emotionally intense" too, for good or bad. Myself, I have been called "too logical, psychopath, robot, too calm, damage from birth" etc. by Fi users that find my Zen troubling...
INFP here.

Fi is quite baffling to ENTPs, I think. Fi is probably a bit annoying, since you can't even "pick up" on it. Obviously, for a Fi-dom, whatever the nature of the feeling being currently expressed, whether it be extant or masked, is almost immediately perceptible.

ENTPs hate being slow on the uptake, and are usually resentful that something is passing by in front of them without them realising it. They pride themselves on being able to draw lots of things together, and having such a massive blindspot as Fi annoys them because they cannot draw upon it to add to, modify, or improve their concepts. If an ENTP says something blunt (and they do - frequently), they are usually baffled that someone might be offended. They then become annoyed as if they, as people, have no relation to what they've just said. Therefore, it appears unreasonable and "moody" of the other person to hold them to account for something they said off the cuff.

To say that Fi-doms are moody is reductive. If you are only noticing the present mood then are you missing the vast majority of real Fi, which takes place in the moments when you aren't looking. That is what it does: it is an introverted function. Fi is operating when other types (particularly extroverts) are bouncing around in conversation, talking over one another. Fi-doms are processing during this time.

We do not find yours - or anyone's - "Zen" troubling. What we find troubling is the dismissal of Fi's validity. This occurs frequently. It is, ultimately, to the interlocutor's failing. You will never escape Fi. You may think you are being efficient, or rational, or logical but, I tell you, one day everyone has to deal with their Fi.

If you're an ENTP, you need to deal with identifying what annoys you and why it annoys you. That way you will be more sympathetic to others, and you will attempt to check your "loudmouth with all the great ideas" mood. An ENTP who has learnt about Fi is the ENTP who says to himself "Hang on - I might not say this right now. If I do, everyone might think I'm an arsehole."
 

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INFP here.

Fi is quite baffling to ENTPs, I think. Fi is probably a bit annoying, since you can't even "pick up" on it. Obviously, for a Fi-dom, whatever the nature of the feeling being currently expressed, whether it be extant or masked, is almost immediately perceptible.

ENTPs hate being slow on the uptake, and are usually resentful that something is passing by in front of them without them realising it. They pride themselves on being able to draw lots of things together, and having such a massive blindspot as Fi annoys them because they cannot draw upon it to add to, modify, or improve their concepts. If an ENTP says something blunt (and they do - frequently), they are usually baffled that someone might be offended. They then become annoyed as if they, as people, have no relation to what they've just said. Therefore, it appears unreasonable and "moody" of the other person to hold them to account for something they said off the cuff.

To say that Fi-doms are moody is reductive. If you are only noticing the present mood then are you missing the vast majority of real Fi, which takes place in the moments when you aren't looking. That is what it does: it is an introverted function. Fi is operating when other types (particularly extroverts) are bouncing around in conversation, talking over one another. Fi-doms are processing during this time.

We do not find yours - or anyone's - "Zen" troubling. What we find troubling is the dismissal of Fi's validity. This occurs frequently. It is, ultimately, to the interlocutor's failing. You will never escape Fi. You may think you are being efficient, or rational, or logical but, I tell you, one day everyone has to deal with their Fi.

If you're an ENTP, you need to deal with identifying what annoys you and why it annoys you. That way you will be more sympathetic to others, and you will attempt to check your "loudmouth with all the great ideas" mood. An ENTP who has learnt about Fi is the ENTP who says to himself "Hang on - I might not say this right now. If I do, everyone might think I'm an arsehole."
Yes, yes, thank you. This puts into words the issues I've had between me and a good ENTP friend of mine. We find each other rather fascinating and interesting and I love comparing views on things - they're so different! But it's also incredibly frustrating for both of us sometimes. I don't get offended at his bluntness anymore, but he was so baffled when I did. Like, I would get really upset and he'd say "What did I do?". It took me awhile to figure out he genuinely did not understand, and wasn't just being an arse. I like to think I've taught him to be more sensitive about Fi-types (I've known him since we were little), but he still doesn't understand it. And you're right - especially when it comes to relationships, he cannot tell me what he actually wants or needs. He just does what everyone around him is doing in regards to that. It never makes him happy or sad, he just does.
 

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As you both say, if the ENTP is not aware of his stumblings - do not understand - then I guess he is no asshole? Everyone has blind spots. My criteria of telling if someone is truly unsympathetic is if they do their mean stuff KNOWINGLY.... One should simply do the best with what they have got.

I think I can be blunt but also very empathetic. I did, and still do, have problems with what I like myself. I have worked on both Fi and Fe, and now I do not just take care of everyone around..... I WANT some stuff too, or else I can skip it.

My Fi is actually higher than my Fe in cognitive tests... I don't know if I am that blind as you say... It is more like I feel uneasy because you cannot logically anticipate their motifs or next action. If someone acts on the basis of rationality or morality (common) then it is an easier formula to calculate. With some Fi:era, especially unhealthy ones, you never know when something will blow up in your face. They do not seem to share this forgiving trait if there was no bad intentions... Instead they seem to think " you should know better". I am left with having many hypothesis´ but not knowing why/what/how beforehand... I have to go on experience to learn individual behaviors and thought patterns/values... I guess I am no true mindreader....:)
 

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As you both say, if the ENTP is not aware of his stumblings - do not understand - then I guess he is no asshole? Everyone has blind spots. My criteria of telling if someone is truly unsympathetic is if they do their mean stuff KNOWINGLY.... One should simply do the best with what they have got.

I think I can be blunt but also very empathetic. I did, and still do, have problems with what I like myself. I have worked on both Fi and Fe, and now I do not just take care of everyone around..... I WANT some stuff too, or else I can skip it.

My Fi is actually higher than my Fe in cognitive tests... I don't know if I am that blind as you say... It is more like I feel uneasy because you cannot logically anticipate their motifs or next action. If someone acts on the basis of rationality or morality (common) then it is an easier formula to calculate. With some Fi:era, especially unhealthy ones, you never know when something will blow up in your face. They do not seem to share this forgiving trait if there was no bad intentions... Instead they seem to think " you should know better". I am left with having many hypothesis´ but not knowing why/what/how beforehand... I have to go on experience to learn individual behaviors and thought patterns/values... I guess I am no true mindreader....:)
No, no, no, no. I'm not at all blaming the ENTP for his misunderstanding! I don't think that's what adasta was trying to say either. I forgive him. It's just that the Fe vs. Fi is definitely a roadbloack in that friendship, and until I understood it, it was pretty awful. Many of those words you listed that Fi accuses you of are words that went through my mind when dealing with him. It just took a lot to understand his actions. It was especially confusing because I think we can be on the same page with our Ne flowing together, but then something happens that definitely isn't.

Also, my ENTP can be one of the most deeply empathetic people ever, I come close to crying sometimes because of his caring. Fes can certainly reach a depth of empathy I cannot. I have to attempt to understand why I would feel that way through my own lenses. Sometimes I feel like a bad person because my 'empathy' comes from my values being violated in relation to what has been done to the other person, or from an appreciation that their own values have been violated. In addition, I've come to appreciate the bluntness of his kind and have tried to learn to be more straightforward with people.

I can see how Fi makes you uneasy. Like abasta said, ENTPs hate being slow on the uptake. Have you considered asking Fis about how they feel instead of attempting to anticipate their actions? Maybe once you get more of a sense of what the Fi's core values are, it will be less difficult to guess their reactions to things. It's pretty cause and effect once you know.

My ENTP seems to be able to handle a lot of people very well... but I manage to surprise him. And it's a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine that I've taken to purposefully befuddling him to some degree in non-consequential situations. I love his reactions, and then I often ask him questions afterward to discover how he interpreted things and such... it's just very fascinating to me. Of course, I do my best to explain myself to him as well and I think he's better able to understand where I'm coming from, though he still can't read me.
 

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As you both say, if the ENTP is not aware of his stumblings - do not understand - then I guess he is no asshole?
Hahaha.

"Hey, my argument doesn't make any sense, but that's okay, because I don't even know I'm doing it all wrong!"

Sadly, you can't go through life coasting on "good intentions". There are only so many times you can say "I didn't mean it like that" before people get tired of your ignorance and start thinking you're an arsehole even if, deep down, you're a really nice guy.

I don't know if I am that blind as you say...
You probably aren't. If you've studied MBTI, you're probably more of aware of Fi than most ENTPs.

It is more like I feel uneasy because you cannot logically anticipate their motifs or next action. If someone acts on the basis of rationality or morality (common) then it is an easier formula to calculate.
There is simply no way you can consider rationality and morality as at all comparable. I understand your intentions here, but predicting people's actions in the near-future based on their behaviour in the moment leaves you at a massive disadvantage. Having said that, this is a big ENxP problem, and it stems from poor Si.

With some Fi:era, especially unhealthy ones, you never know when something will blow up in your face. They do not seem to share this forgiving trait if there was no bad intentions... Instead they seem to think " you should know better".
Yeah that's true. This is the unhealthy aspect though, and I'm glad you've made that distinction.
 

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Sadly, you can't go through life coasting on "good intentions". There are only so many times you can say "I didn't mean it like that" before people get tired of your ignorance and start thinking you're an arsehole even if, deep down, you're a really nice guy.
I myself have been trying to predict a certain Fi-dominant's reactions before I speak, but I still end up sounding brash. I have no idea how to word things in such a way that wouldn't hurt her. Not all Fi-doms are fragile, but I've had the luck/misfortune of having to deal with a lot of fragile Fi users. I've always done my best to keep encouraging them - usually, we would dream of positive successes in the future; however, I would still point out their flaws without screaming it at them (or doing something I would find out is useless at getting the point across). When I point out the flaws, they break down, even when I point out their strengths and suggest they try to build off of them.

I realize I tend to be quite blunt, but I've explained numerous times that I'm neither angry nor looking down on them. It's easy to default into that mindset, but with someone that has difficulty expressing his feelings, you'll have to look past the body language at the words actually coming out of his mouth. This is why I've always thought Fi/Fe types would have a lot of difficulty with Ti/Te types - our command of body language tends to be quite bad, and because Fi/Fe-doms normally can't turn their own values on and off at will, they will often judge us Ti/Te types based on how well our analysis fits in to what they feel; body language and the 'apparent' underlying current is usually considered most important to them.

In order for a Ti/Te user and an Fi/Fe user to work well together, they have to make a lot of compromises, something I see you would be unlikely to do according to this line. It isn't 'ignorance', but rather an inexplicable (at least for now) difficulty in naturally conveying our emotions well, as well as taking into account the emotions of others (we tend to be bad at reading body language and 'tone of voice' as well). Everyone can fall back to a natural tendency, and these are the tendencies of Fi/Fe and Ti/Te when interacting. However, anyone can overcome those tendencies with a bit of work and a lot of patience.
 

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I myself have been trying to predict a certain Fi-dominant's reactions before I speak, but I still end up sounding brash. I have no idea how to word things in such a way that wouldn't hurt her. Not all Fi-doms are fragile, but I've had the luck/misfortune of having to deal with a lot of fragile Fi users. I've always done my best to keep encouraging them - usually, we would dream of positive successes in the future; however, I would still point out their flaws without screaming it at them (or doing something I would find out is useless at getting the point across). When I point out the flaws, they break down, even when I point out their strengths and suggest they try to build off of them.

I realize I tend to be quite blunt, but I've explained numerous times that I'm neither angry nor looking down on them. It's easy to default into that mindset, but with someone that has difficulty expressing his feelings, you'll have to look past the body language at the words actually coming out of his mouth. This is why I've always thought Fi/Fe types would have a lot of difficulty with Ti/Te types - our command of body language tends to be quite bad, and because Fi/Fe-doms normally can't turn their own values on and off at will, they will often judge us Ti/Te types based on how well our analysis fits in to what they feel; body language and the 'apparent' underlying current is usually considered most important to them.

In order for a Ti/Te user and an Fi/Fe user to work well together, they have to make a lot of compromises, something I see you would be unlikely to do according to this line. It isn't 'ignorance', but rather an inexplicable (at least for now) difficulty in naturally conveying our emotions well, as well as taking into account the emotions of others (we tend to be bad at reading body language and 'tone of voice' as well). Everyone can fall back to a natural tendency, and these are the tendencies of Fi/Fe and Ti/Te when interacting. However, anyone can overcome those tendencies with a bit of work and a lot of patience.

Your Fi-dom friends seem fragile to the extreme! I know I am not as sensitive as many in the forums, but I feel like the INFPs I know around me are stronger than that as well. It'd be interesting to ask them how they feel about an ENTP in particular... hmm....

One of my best friends is Ti-dom, and we consider each other some of the most sane, trustworthy, and dependable people we know. The Fe vs. Fi thing was a bit of an issue at times, but for the most part she never hurt my feelings; she was always very sensitive, even too sensitive, with me. I think the reason this was is that she always asks questions like "Do you want me to just listen, or would you also like some advice?" Or, "Are you showing me this art because you'd like feedback?" Basically, she never critiques someone unless a person want to hear it, and sometimes people really don't.

And if they never really want that advice, but you're working with them on a project, maybe sit them down and say something like: "We've had this awesome idea for this project, and I think we've achieved it somewhat, but I think we can do it even better if we make some adjustments to what we've done in this portion..." and then gently explain what would could be improved upon.

If you're in a situation where you need to intervene on truly unhealthy behavior... well... you're going to have to prepare for tears - they're an unhealthy Fi! But be sure to bring along her Fi-dom friends to help out.

As for the line that you quoted: I rather agree. It's like if you go around making offensive remarks about people who are vegetarian. You can keep saying; "Oops, I didn't know you were vegetarian!", or you can just stop making offensive remarks when you don't understand the other person yet. I'm not saying Fi-types shouldn't also be understanding of Fe as well; I think everyone should be understanding of others' way of viewing the world in order to get along better.
 

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I have encountered some ITJs that use the psychologizing to put opponents down, protecting themselves behind the notion that others are idiots or typist. Also, the "selfishness" of ETJs are prevalent in many ETJs I know very well (incl. brother).

Te-types are very efficient, even when using the brain they use a very small, simplified, efficient loop. When you exclude a lot of holistic input, like feelings and harmony it is easier to make efficient decisions.

Fi is still sort of a mystery to me, since it is based on PERSONAL values and you cannot deduce them our anticipate them easily. From my experience, Fi-types are the "most emotionally intense" too, for good or bad. Myself, I have been called "too logical, psychopath, robot, too calm, damage from birth" etc. by Fi users that find my Zen troubling...
May i ask what is YOUR Zen? :happy:
 

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You can keep saying; "Oops, I didn't know you were vegetarian!", or you can just stop making offensive remarks when you don't understand the other person yet. I'm not saying Fi-types shouldn't also be understanding of Fe as well; I think everyone should be understanding of others' way of viewing the world in order to get along better.

Well... Unfortunately to - quickly - get to REALLY understand, and read, people and their underlying fundaments, you have to make their facade crack open. ENTPs -or just me - often do this through putting out remarks and lines that are aimed to surprise or shock a bit. Often in a humorous way... not ever meant to hurt. T types answer very well to this... with baffled laughter. And you get a glimpse of their true self and how they tick when the mask comes off for an instant.

Fi types are the most random when it comes to reaction to this. Fe-types can often both laugh AND be sort of "properly offended"....but they are impressed too. Fi types can really be upset though... or just be the most charming.
 

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I definitely recognize that behavior, but I've always found it amusing more than anything. I usually laugh, and then say something strange in return. This is usually when I bring out my own game and tailor my reaction to befuddle them. ;) Maybe it's because I've known an ENTP for so long, I see right through it and know that the person is testing me.

Maybe I am a strange Fi that way? I am enneagram 5. But maybe it's just because two of my best friends are ENTP.

Either way, maybe you should just be straightforward and ask about their thoughts instead of trying to read them, as I noted earlier. It could end it a lot less heartbreak.
 

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I definitely recognize that behavior, but I've always found it amusing more than anything. I usually laugh, and then say something strange in return. This is usually when I bring out my own game and tailor my reaction to befuddle them. ;) Maybe it's because I've known an ENTP for so long, I see right through it and know that the person is testing me.

Maybe I am a strange Fi that way? I am enneagram 5. But maybe it's just because two of my best friends are ENTP.

Either way, maybe you should just be straightforward and ask about their thoughts instead of trying to read them, as I noted earlier. It could end it a lot less heartbreak.
Many don't respond well to direct questions of a nature best suited at psychologists they already know.... Some don't know themselves how they tick.... and fewer still wants YOU to know how they tick. That is why we use this technique. If I asked you, you would just think "That is none of his f...ng business" or "Who does he think he is to ask that?" right?

Believe me, I am a bit older so it is a useful technique. And I do NOT come off as an asshole apart from when my Te is rampant (i ENTJ-mode). Many people mistake me for ENFP....(Fe, but anyway, I eem approachable... Everyone from massage therapist to stranger on train opens up to me).
 
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Hmm... so you're saying you would ask very personal questions? I think I know why an Fi would respond unpredictably to this action in particular.

The Fi would find the question an interesting consideration and it appeal to the Fi desire to understand the self more.

At the same time, the Fi is naturally private so they may be unwilling to share.

I think with an ENTP I knew well, I would answer the question honestly, then ask back, and compare the answers to discover more about both of us.

With an ENTP I didn't know, I would say something snarky and/or befuddling to undermine how he was trying to test me and figure out how I tick. Again, I see what the ENTP is attempting to do and I would definitely try to mess with his head and regain the upper hand in our interaction.

I like to be able to control what strangers know/understand about me. I like to manipulate how people see me in order to keep myself safe in vulnerable situations. But I wouldn't get angry or anything. I don't usually mind personal questions, I just choose whether I want to be myself with that person, and share a true answer, or I want to be private because I'd prefer not to be intimate.

If the ENTP's reaction to my nonsense impresses me I'll likely open up. But if the ENTP seems uninterested in knowing me, then I still enjoy the Ne-interaction, but I won't reveal my inner self so much unless it's relevant.

Even right now, you're trying to predict my behavior and read me, trying to prove you see how I tick. My natural instinct is to try and undermine that attempt, though I'm resisting it for the sake of understanding.
 

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Thank you for sharing this but is it possible you could also entail how this affects types that do not normally have Fi as one of their four functions? I ask because I recognize the first description of Fi dom particularly well and I indeed value mercy over justice, but I'm Ti dom. I don't even "have" Fi, I have Fe.

I do however recognize myself a bit with the INFPs. Care to elaborate on this aspect of the types not being FPs or TJs?
 

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"Even right now, you're trying to predict my behavior and read me, trying to prove you see how I tick."
He he. I might.

But I wouldn't really ask personal questions. The thing is, to get THE SAME INFORMATION as you get when "shocking" you need to get close enough to ask many questions of some personal nature. This takes time. Thus it is much QUICKER to break the defenses and bored facade. Actually, it usually stirs things up for the better. Most people sort of live in bored anticipation of what will transpire. When something shocks them out of it, they may be thankful...
 
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Haha you ENTPs amuse me. That honestly sounds like fun to me, but it's not in my nature to do it. However, I think that you cannot be surprised when someone acts negatively to this once in awhile. Like I said, if you really want there to be no misunderstandings, just be straightforward! And maybe learn to live in a little ambiguity. If you impress an Fi, they will open up to you eventually.

Maybe if someone gets offended, you could backtrack, explain you just want to see how they react and understand them better. Any Fi would understand this, and maybe even forgive you and explain themselves.


Thank you for sharing this but is it possible you could also entail how this affects types that do not normally have Fi as one of their four functions? I ask because I recognize the first description of Fi dom particularly well and I indeed value mercy over justice, but I'm Ti dom. I don't even "have" Fi, I have Fe.

I do however recognize myself a bit with the INFPs. Care to elaborate on this aspect of the types not being FPs or TJs?
What is your function order? Have you taken the keys 2 cognition test? I find it's the most reliable in terms of giving you different possible types and such.

I have a Ti-dom friend that appears to have Fi alot, but its really more that her deep logic(Ti) + deep empathy and understanding how others feel(Fe) result in concrete, noble, principals of interacting with others.

As for myself, I can appear to have Fe, but it's really seeing the different possibilities of others' and situations (Ne) + perception of how I would feel if I were in that situation (Fi) that result in Fe-like empathy. Put in a cynical view, it's feeling bad for myself if I were in that situation, thus I feel bad for them. I don't really have a true understanding of how they actually feel though. That's pretty difficult for me unless they explicitly explain everything. I don't have much in the way of other Fe characteristics, though.

Also, are you referring to the first proposed definition or the first quote? I'm not sure.
 

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What is your function order? Have you taken the keys 2 cognition test? I find it's the most reliable in terms of giving you different possible types and such.

I have a Ti-dom friend that appears to have Fi alot, but its really more that her deep logic(Ti) + deep empathy and understanding how others feel(Fe) result in concrete, noble, principals of interacting with others.

As for myself, I can appear to have Fe, but it's really seeing the different possibilities of others' and situations (Ne) + perception of how I would feel if I were in that situation (Fi) that result in Fe-like empathy. Put in a cynical view, it's feeling bad for myself if I were in that situation, thus I feel bad for them. I don't really have a true understanding of how they actually feel though. That's pretty difficult for me unless they explicitly explain everything. I don't have much in the way of other Fe characteristics, though.

Also, are you referring to the first proposed definition or the first quote? I'm not sure.
I have only taken the test twice and the result were varied. First time I came out as an INTP (I think this test is result is more reliable) and it was Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe. Second time was Fi Ne Ti Ni Te Si Se Fe so it scored me as an INFP actually. I also seem to have a very strong Fi even when comparing myself to other INTPs.

I know that I'm an INTP but with a very strong and developed Fi though so I can relate pretty strongly to the Fi doms although I can't quite understand how they view interpersonal relationships. My Fi feeds my Ti after all.

And yes, I am mostly referring to the first proposition because this is the one I identify myself the most strongly with. And yes, you're right that Ne plays a large role here and how I'm having it so easy to put myself in somebody else's shoes it's sometimes not even funny. I have to turn off F completely and just go cold Ti logic but even then it is very hard for me to hate on others as I can still rationalize my way to why someone feels like he/she does.

And you're right that as a Ti dom I can't always relate to the emotions per se, but I can understand the situation and it generates a strong sense of empathy. If the person is very similar to I it becomes easier for me to understand the feeling aspect of well which results with even stronger empathy.
 

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It sounds to me like you're an INTP whose functions are able to imitate Fi through development, if you go by MBTI alone. Other theories say you can access all 8 functions and that you could have developed it somehow. I and my INTP friend are very similar, and when she's in feeling mode, there's little to distinguish us. However, she's still INTP, no doubt. It's interesting you score so lowly on Fe though. Hmm...

I think since you primarily seem to use Ti and Ne, you should go with that. The more inferior functions can get pretty muddled, I think.

Just as a note, that definition you chose I don't relate to. I much prefer the second definition. The first definition sounds a bit muddled with Fe, IMO.

Have you tried looking at this article and picking out which function pairs you primarily use:? There's a chart on the bottom of the page to figure out your type based on that.

http://personalitycafe.com/articles...ests-guide-understanding-function-theory.html
 
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