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I have heard INFPs, ENFPs, and ENTPs at various points talk about their intuition as some kind of extra-sensory, quasi-magical function. (I don't know if this is the case with Ni as well, please let me know).

I just can't understand the ... faith that some people have in their intuition - to the extent that it can somehow divine 'truths' that they cannot possibily know about given a general lack of real empirical evidence.

Even as INFP who has loads of Ne, I can't understand this intellectually nor from the point of view of someone who actually possesses the quality. Ne can be so flawed in it's understanding of reality - it can be pretty myopic and it can reinforce already held views (in my case, Fi). It uses are very limited set of data points to create a full impression - given that, I think that Ne should be viewed with a heathy degree of skepticism.

I've made a few threads like this in the INFP forum - it's a pet peeve of mine hahaha. Now I want to know what other types with intuition think about it - and what people without intuition of any type think about it as well.
 

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I've never thought of it as being mystical or magical in any way. Even looking back to when I was younger, before I had been introduced to typology, I didn't think of 'extroverted intuition' in that way. That seems more how Ni-doms have described their intuition, though.
 

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Magic is everywhere. In the secrets that a knowing smile hides and a momment of sudden understanding. Ne lets you think outside of what it obvious/known and embrace what could be if... fill (in blank.) The thoughts are not defying logic, they just appear to have this effect because they stand out as fresh and outlandish. Ne is to think outside the watermelon and say "hey, what if there is more to the world than seeds and pulp?" However, the function is not infallible (the watermelon could be encompasses by another watermelon, in a pattern of endless cosmic fruit.) The truth is, that Ni and Ne can easily go int the wrong direction when it does not have empirical understanding behing it. It just seems like people who use this functions these functions more often take "bigger swings" at possibilities.
One thing is for sure, "I just know" might be enough for the individual saying it, but it does not hold for the mayority of us, even if he/she claims to be using Me (extraverted magic) to derive the truth :crazy:
 

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No. Magic is the manifestation of powers that are harnessed or manipulated, not your own.

Intuition, our own, is an incredibly complex thing, and some are just in more touch with it than others. There IS an unseen element to every human being that is either strong or weak (just like one's physical body), but it ain't the stuff of divine power lol.
 

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Far from magical or mystical. Intuition, instead of focusing perception on colors, shapes, smells or sights as Sensors do, focus on signs, symbols, patterns and assumptions.

Based on these inputs, intuition searches for similarity and commonality between data points (life experiences/knowledge). This relentless search for “commonality” allows the Ne/Ni to extrapolate patterns into the future in what is known as “what if” statements.

These what if statements, when accurate, can give a sensation of clairvoyance, but whereas clairvoyance is “seeing into the future”, intuition is “follow current patterns into the future”. Without the pattern there is no prediction. It’s actually conventional when one looks at it in this way. The best comparison I can make for intuition as a perceiving function is to multiple regression analyses. While it's making predictions into the unknowable future, it's all based on past/present patterns.

As far as making predictions without patterns such as “seeing” lottery numbers in a dream or predicting obscure unrelated events, I don’t have much experience, but I am interested in those stories nonetheless (and would love to learn how :happy:).
 

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Far from magical or mystical. Intuition, instead of focusing perception on colors, shapes, smells or sights as Sensors do, focus on signs, symbols, patterns and assumptions.

Based on these inputs, intuition searches for similarity and commonality between data points (life experiences/knowledge). This relentless search for “commonality” allows the Ne/Ni to extrapolate patterns into the future in what is known as “what if” statements.
I don't know how Ne manifests -- I have a hard enough time describing my Ni -- but intuition is not mystical. It is extra-sensory in that it describes something more than what can be perceived using the five senses. It is, as CounterPoint indicates, an ability to connect seemingly random inputs into a cohesive and meaningful pattern. It is living in a dynamic metaphor.
 
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I have heard INFPs, ENFPs, and ENTPs at various points talk about their intuition as some kind of extra-sensory, quasi-magical function. (I don't know if this is the case with Ni as well, please let me know).

I just can't understand the ... faith that some people have in their intuition - to the extent that it can somehow divine 'truths' that they cannot possibily know about given a general lack of real empirical evidence.

Even as INFP who has loads of Ne, I can't understand this intellectually nor from the point of view of someone who actually possesses the quality. Ne can be so flawed in it's understanding of reality - it can be pretty myopic and it can reinforce already held views (in my case, Fi). It uses are very limited set of data points to create a full impression - given that, I think that Ne should be viewed with a heathy degree of skepticism.

I've made a few threads like this in the INFP forum - it's a pet peeve of mine hahaha. Now I want to know what other types with intuition think about it - and what people without intuition of any type think about it as well.
Exactly. I've complained in some of the "intuition" threads in the INFP forums were they discuss psychic powers and stuff... it just drives me crazy. Ne can produce good ideas... but they don't just appear from nowhere. Same with Ni, although if any of the cognitive functions were magical, it would probably be that one.
 

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I have heard INFJs pull the mystical thing, but it has never ever made sense to me and I can't say I've run into it with INTJs, to my knowlege. Plus I don't like it when someone takes a random, cracked out assumption, and blames it on intuition - or refuses to think critically on the products of intuition. I may 'just know' all the time, but that's because I haven't finished - I do try to prove an idea and/or analyse how I got it further . I would never be comfortable just accepting an intuitive idea. I don't know why people do that.

Lord knows they may be right sometimes, but confirmation bias will usually guarantee that they forget/ignore the unsuccessful intuitive guesses. I know so many people who do that.
 

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I have heard INFJs pull the mystical thing, but it has never ever made sense to me and I can't say I've run into it with INTJs, to my knowlege. Plus I don't like it when someone takes a random, cracked out assumption, and blames it on intuition - or refuses to think critically on the products of intuition. I may 'just know' all the time, but that's because I haven't finished - I do try to prove an idea and/or analyse how I got it further . I would never be comfortable just accepting an intuitive idea. I don't know why people do that.

Lord knows they may be right sometimes, but confirmation bias will usually guarantee that they forget/ignore the unsuccessful intuitive guesses. I know so many people who do that.
How do you prove a hunch or idea that has not yet been proven? You test it out. How do you test out a hypothesis when it is timeless? You can only wait until history shows the pattern and even then, you can only look at a section of it. How can a person make decisions based on N info if they have to wait on empirical evidence to support it? You can't test something unless you do it. The test comes first then the results, not the other way around. You cannot produce T conclusions with F. You cannot produce F conclusions with T. You cannot produce N info with S. You cannot produce S info with N.

I mean basically are Ns aloud to make decisions (T/F) with N info or not. Are you saying everyone should turn into an S?
 

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How much one trust in his/her own intuition usually comes a lot from understanding certain patterns and meanings that are interpreted from experiences. Self trust cannot be measured and it differs upon every individual.

It is not defying logic. It just comes from not being able to ignore the lessons (painful or good ones) that come from experiences.

At times, certain subjective experiences cannot be described in terms of what people might call a 'more objective' outlook. The human vocabulary is limited, no matter how ideally we would like to think that we are able to intellectually categorize all experiences. This is why they say that certain trauma victims have gained more trust and depth in their intuition. Thus they have used intuition as a way to guide them out of possibly dangerous situations.

I can't ''just know'' without a reason. Lol. That wouldn't make sense. If I ''just knew'', it's likely because I've ''been there'' before or ''there are patterns in this situation that seem familiar.''
 

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I can't ''just know'' without a reason. Lol. That wouldn't make sense. If I ''just knew'', it's likely because I've ''been there'' before or ''there are patterns in this situation that seem familiar.''
Then why did you say on another of your posts that you couldn't explain your intuition, that you just "knew"?
That you had hunches and that you had an amazing intuition that could detect anything?
 

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How do you prove a hunch or idea that has not yet been proven? You test it out. How do you test out a hypothesis when it is timeless? You can only wait until history shows the pattern and even then, you can only look at a section of it. How can a person make decisions based on N info if they have to wait on empirical evidence to support it? You can't test something unless you do it. The test comes first then the results, not the other way around. You cannot produce T conclusions with F. You cannot produce F conclusions with T. You cannot produce N info with S. You cannot produce S info with N.

I mean basically are Ns aloud[sic] to make decisions (T/F) with N info or not. Are you saying everyone should turn into an S?
:mellow:
They make a decision to test it, rather than believing it blindly - go out and find empirical evidence, not "wait" for it. Of course, experimentation is not the only way to check validity - research also works. Also analysing internal logical consistency, etc. and looking at how the idea came and if bias played into it, and how it balances in terms of subjective/objective factors and how and where it relates to other ideas and other situations it maybe could be applied to and if it looks valid/accurate there...really any form of critical analysis. S has nothing whatever to do with it - unless one wants it to. Waiting has nothing to do with it, although that can allow some processes to go further - the problem, however, that I have is with blind belief. I have no idea how you managed to misread me so badly. What I am objecting to is "I had an idea, therefore it reflects reality perfectly, therefore I will ignore conflicting evidence that arises in future, because I am such an awesome intuitive genius blah blah." Or those who claim that intuition is incomprehensible & magical - all it takes is a little introspection. It'll be post-facto analysis, since intuition works faster, but it gets the main factors. The "just knowing" of intuition isn't enough, as it can be wrong - I have problems with people who skip the testing phase and/or do not self-analyse to understand how they come to conclusions. Millions of patterns exist - many are just plain wrong. Just seeing one isn't enough - but sadly, it is for some people. And usually, they only remember the times they got it right, especially if being "intuitive" is tied into their sense of self-worth. I have no problems with guessing and acting on a guess in order to get data &c - I have problems with people who don't know it's a guess and think it is always accurate mystical inspiration that is a sign of how awesome they are etc. bullshit etc.

Ne will test its conclusions against, for example, Fi or Ti - it starts out more external and needs to validate against internal standards. Ni, being already internal, needs to validate against external standards - Fe or Te. Frankly I think the testing stage being external is more reliable (esp Te), but then I would, obviously. For example, as INTJ, my Ni is what perceives and analyses patterns. What I need to determine what is real is Te, just as you use Fe. (again, nothing to do with S) It is the balancing, extraverted force that connects my internal analyses and musings to the outside world. Depending on the pattern/necessary decision, I can use Te a number of ways. Simply stating an idea can be a kind of test - one observes reactions, one hears objections. In fact, simply putting it into words, making it less intuitive/abstract and more specific can make it easier to make objections myself. Stating it puts it into a more testeable form. Of course, since Ni is dominant, I am more prone to analyse esp before acting than, say, an ENTJ, who would usually find it more efficient to test it right away and see the results - I need to analyse and do fewer, but more strategic, tests because an overload of data from too many experiments could paralyse my Dom-Ni. I more naturally collect information broadly but more vaguely, less straightforwardly than Dom-Te. I'm sure you can see some parallels with using Fe for testing and can see this isn't just waiting on empirical evidence. It is doing internal analysis, and then external, so as to be more secure in conclusions, rather than just accepting it as truth as soon as it occurs to one. Acknowledging that Ni conclusions aren't simply knowledge - yet - even as they can still be useful working hypotheses - as well as leaving them open to reevaluation - and avoiding the dreaded Ni-Fi loop that can lead an INTJ into conspiracy theories, etc. etc. Blind acceptance of ideas and masturbatory self-congratulation on one's intuitive prowess are the things I am objecting to here; that is all.
 

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Sometimes I come to conclusions quickly (Ni) and just throw it out as bait for criticism knowing that it will be molded by environmental realities into something workable. To help this process, I have no problems debating a new idea with rigor even if I don’t actually agree with it. It’s Te at work “testing” out ideas while Ni sits back and reconfigures (I'm annoying).

I’ll speculate that this is probably why some N users feel a sense of “magic”. Intuition has no need for self validation like extraverted judging functions so being “right or wrong” is not its purpose. It is opened ended and soaks up such a wide base of knowledge that Te/Fe has reliable source to draw upon without (seemingly) much mental footwork, i.e. they “just know”.

Magic :crazy:
 

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I don't describe my intuition as "psychic" like other INFJs. I can't magically "feel" what someone else is feeling nor can I be certain of any of my conjectures. <_______< I think of intuition as a thought process, not psychic magical powers.
 

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Then why did you say on another of your posts that you couldn't explain your intuition, that you just "knew"?
That you had hunches and that you had an amazing intuition that could detect anything?
There are some cases when intuition can be explained.

Other cases, I admit, it cannot be explained properly... but I do think there should be underlying explanations somewhere.

Experiences have made me trust my intuition more, even if people don't take it seriously.
 
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There are some cases when intuition can be explained.

Other cases, I admit, it cannot be explained properly... but I do think there should be underlying explanations somewhere.

Experiences have made me trust my intuition more, even if people don't take it seriously.
Intuition can "theoretically" be explained, but it's too hard to trace back all the things that an N user has mentally synthesized to come to a given conclusion. It may appear magical or inexplicable, but it's really just a chain of subconsciously registered details and thoughts.
 

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Intuition only appears "magical" and "mystical" to those who don't experience it, aka "S types". I could be at a party with friends and be hit on by this guy, and (if I'm trusting my intuition enough) I could tell you if he's actually interested or just going after anything within a 20 mile radius. Then when I tell an S friend of mine shortly after the interaction they think I'm psychic or something. I'm just gathering information from the present and trusting my gut and that's what I determine.

A lot of times I'm right.... but not always. Typically if I let my feelings or thoughts get in the way too much is when I'm wrong.
 
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There is an element of intuition that can't really be understood.

But I wouldn't say its irrational, just different and difficult to understand. As an Ne user, I have a strong Ti. So yes, I can come up with some crazy ideas, but I have full awareness of which ones are realistic and which ones aren't. Intuition pieces ideas and concepts together subconsciously, and its because the work is subconscious that I think it seems mysterious and could seem irrational to follow. I've gotten to an entirely different city by intuition, thinking it was a certain direction and driving that way. I'd been to the city before years ago but didn't consciously remember a thing about its location. My brain was picking up the things about its location that I didn't consciously remember and I was paying attention enough for it to work, and I got there.

Thats also why N users might have "lightbulb moments". Sometimes things just suddenly come together at once and they make sense. Its not something you can lay out a logical map to follow for. Its subconscious connection of knowledge with knew knowledge, or knowledge with knowledge thats already there.

One thing thats really fun to experience is developing an understanding of something abstract only with intuition. You don't have pictures, you can't even use words to describe it or explain it to somebody else, but you fully and completely understand it.
 
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