[niki]

I've just read and commented on a quite interesting thread here, that basically, I am reminded by the OP there that the "rest of the world" people other than our Type, unfortunately, might perhaps don't care so much about 'saving the world, humanity' or that kind of 'bigger picture' things.
Instead, I've found the reality that majority of humans seem to care more about acquiring more material things, more money (with NO other purposes often than just to get more & more material things), then as easily 'brainwashed' by the popular media nowadays: we 'entertain' ourselves with all kind of "lower-consciousness" things like sex, porns, violence-games, mindless gossiping & chatting, etc etc.

These all really somehow really makes me stop, and ponder quite hard this question:
Is humanity pretty much..hopeless, in the 'grand scheme' of things?

Will humanity (NOT the planet) probably go extinct, due to our majority of -sadly- ignorant & stupid deeds we're doing, to humanity, environment, and the planet?

And I don't mean to brag or anything like that,
but I do think it would be so tragic, if people like us, who perhaps DO think & care for the 'bigger picture' of things and how to fix' em,..might also probably go extinct along with those approx. 80% of these 'stupid' and 'ignorant' human beings too..(well, unless if there's somehow a 'loop hole' that we can go into 'another world' or that kind of thing..but I also can't entirely count nor depend my "real life" on it, sadly..I'm still living in this "real world", along with those 80%).

So..what do you guys say/think about this?
Is humanity pretty much..hopeless? (and those Aliens or 'advanced/higher beings' out there probably will laugh at our history & existence, like we're some kind of 'failed experiment' of Creation or something..)
or is there still a HOPE, even if it's only a little?.. where, from where though?..
thx.

 

[Luke]

Sometimes I think that humans are incredible. The amount of knowledge we have attained and the things we have accomplished are mind blowing. In the grand scheme of things we exist on this tiny spec of dust in an almost endless void, and yet from this spec of dust our intelligence has stretched out into the depths of the universe.

Other times I almost feel contempt and strong anger towards humanity. But what is most frustrating is that when we are angry at humanity we must admit that we are also human. So if we are noticing flaws in most people we meet, it's very likely that we also possess flaws of your own. It's very hard to sit on a pedestal and judge the rest of humanity, because eventually we will all fall (or be pushed) off!

 

[Bago]

I personally think that you should find a religion, and start to study it. It will answer the kind of questions that you are asking about. There are good and then there are bad in this world. Also, the world moves in cycle. Understanding all this, and that there is an "All Mighty" somewhere up there, allows you to then understand what your own role is in life. Each of us are indeed destined to be a part of this big picture. Yet, "how, what, and why" is the big question. You need to focus your life soon, and this question will be answered when you start doing that.

 

[WhatIMeantToSayWas]

Your grand scheme is your own. What makes your big picture ideals any more or less valid than the ideals of other people. Nothing.
You necessarily view your ideals as right, but dont discount that others do the same. Here we have a community thats likely to agree with you on the virtue of a big picture focus of ideals. But equally theres probably some ESTJs out there despairing at our inability to accept their ideals and approach.
There is no grand scheme.
Humanity is hopeless because it is not capable of hope. Only the individual is.
Stop searching for external meaning, certainly dont let anyone tell you that you fit into some other "scheme" of things, where any ideals are not your own. If you go searching for meaning like that and dont find it would the end of the world matter to you?
Why?... Those are your material, human, "lower consciousness" ideals. Embrace them, they are necessarily your only ideals.

Cheer up, all your posts are so sad niki, and nice quote in your sig ^.^, thats the sad part about being human, limitations.

 

[Mythographeas]

I personally think you should steer clear of religion altogether lest you find priests breathing down your neck, or if you really need one, just do what comes to you intuitively rather than reading any books or going to any temples. If you want to answer your questions with falsehoods, you'd be better off making up your own falsehoods, the ones that work best for you, than purchasing someone else's and selling yourself into a manipulative power structure.

I don't think we are hopeless. Far from it, I think we're on the cusp of perfecting ourselves and correcting nature's mistakes. As we accelerate towards and past boundaries of intelligence beyond which the future can scarcely be imagined, we may need to be vigilant and proactive ensuring that structures are in place to see that technology is put to use and distributed fairly. Even if it's not, though, we'll survive. Perhaps in fewer numbers or perhaps not in a way we'd like to, but in a hundred years or so, it'll take more than a global environmental catastrophe to uproot us.

The majority of people aren't stupid or vapid or whatever, or at least, they're not incapable of being otherwise. They're trapped in a maze of power relations, obedience regulated by culture. Remember who the people you're talking about are - broadly speaking, the servants of the ruling class. Few of the tiny proportion of the world's population to whom most of its wealth belongs are lacking in consciousness. They are acquisitive, yes, but not ignorant. Their consciousness is not a threat to their power. Conversely, class consciousness among the working class is a tremendous threat to their power and is, as such, deliberately prevented from developing - not by a concerted effort of conspirators, but emergently, the system producing the mechanisms of control naturally that it requires to maintain itself, such as the media and acquisitive culture of which you speak.

These systems, the social structures in which people live - the social structures of capitalism - are to blame for the human failings you lament, and would see more surely than any other that we should remain incapable of escaping them through ingenuity.

Humanity is hopeless because it is not capable of hope. Only the individual is.

But that individualism, the refusal to consider oneself a part of a whole, is precisely the source of all of the human ailments at which the OP despairs. We are not isolated, nervous beings existing in a consequential vacuum. We are individuals, but we don't act exclusively in our capacity as individuals, nor can we ever. Like it or not, we're members of a hierarchy of numerous groups, and those groups can act collectively. Individual striving leads to greed and stupidity, while the striving of a class leads to the elevation of the ignorant and improverished to learning and plenty.

Hope lies in two places, then. First, it lies in our boundless capacity to find solutions to any problem - our creativity and ingenuity, our ability to conceive of an ideal and work out how to attain it. Secondly, it lies in our humanity itself, our flexibility and adaptability, that permits us to change as our circumstances change, such that it's conceivable that there are circumstances in which we're all the noblest of the noble.

On the related subject of your signature quote, if you don't want to be human, live long enough not to be and make sure you can not be when the time comes.

 

[Orpheus]

we 'entertain' ourselves with all kind of "lower-consciousness" things like sex, porns, violence-games, mindless gossiping & chatting, etc etc.

I don't intend to be critical... but this worldview is closed minded. People do things for a reason, and though it may often be difficult to relate, it does not make it a bad thing.

I agree that most people are not interested in the welfare of humanity. I'd argue that most people don't understand what's good for humanity, and that includes both you and I. We're not hopeless because we'll either do something, pass our time here, and inevitably: both.

This isn't a bad thing, nor is it good. It just is. I don't predict when the human race will end, but I do know that it will, and death is not to be feared.

Understand through these narrow lens of what we understand of typing that it is difficult for me, as an INTJ, to say this, but I believe it wholeheartedly: The ideals we place upon ourselves of social order, cohesion, morality, logic and efficiency... they are ideal. But they're, at best, a temporary state and we may very well never see such a utopia. If we can, then trust me, I would put my heart into building it.

Otherwise, I suppose we just have to smile and enjoy our lives as we can be sure that tomorrow is no worse than today.

 

[Michael82]

it depends because mother earth will not accept our bullshit much longer :tongue:

we will then come before our existential question if we want to exist or not. and then we will make a decision. to be honest, that moment has already arrived because nobody can deny anymore that we will go extinct at some point if the global population keeps growing.

the answer of course is that we want to keep existing, but, the question then becomes: how are we going to work with this? I'm not sure how but i am sure we need to control the global population, now, or at some point. there is no other way, because the processing of natural resources influences ecological environments. Humans currently look away from those environments and it seems that we will always do. now if we change and become "sustainable" but the population keeps growing we will get a shrinking model where we can do less and less and less. it simply is not going to be the way we want to live our lives.

I just keep saying it: if we want to end up like a bunch of dinosaurs going extinct due to drastically changing ecological systems which supports animal and human life, then that's fine, I don't care nor will I when I am dead (not saying it will happen within a 100 years). But I AM saying that anyone of you saying that it will be alright or it will happen inevitably, are basically worth nothing more then that dinosaur gnawing on his tree.

Therefore people calling environmentalists stupid/nerds/whatever are pretty funny because they are about as simple as this old species in our ecological environment in history, yes, that bunch of dinosaurs. :happy:

Now this change WILL be the driver for humanity because now that we have seen all trends in human history one cannot deny that becoming sarcastic/ironic/cynical/whatever does not add up to supporting each other in being part of the ecological system. We have to be aware that working together and integrating with each other is the only way for us to survive.

From that racist until that rapist until that murderer until that politician, banker, CEO, everybody.

If we keep looking away and keep putting people into corners we will continue living upon greed that will keep going to marginalize and in the end will just result into destroying the environment.

I know it is not that simple but the result will be ending up like our ancestor the lovely dinosaur.

So, humanity will be "a" cause of survival in the future.

 

[ii V I]

Everything ends,
Act for love in the present. (If you are too busy analyzing it, you certainly are not acting in it)
Who knows? It could preserve the future...

 

[Humilis Curator]

No, we are never hopeless. We operate in a world where our minds are restricted by what we know and by what we are conscious of and shown. The possibilities are endless only if you remove yourself from the way we have been indoctrinated to think and operate.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BisAUOY9kFU/TS9Co04ErgI/AAAAAAAAADE/tz1h9Cmyapg/s1600/the_cave.gif (posted a link because it is a huge picture and didn't wanna post a ginormous picture lol)

^ Plato's allegory of the cave

 

[WhatIMeantToSayWas]

But that individualism, the refusal to consider oneself a part of a whole, is precisely the source of all of the human ailments at which the OP despairs. We are not isolated, nervous beings existing in a consequential vacuum. We are individuals, but we don't act exclusively in our capacity as individuals, nor can we ever. Like it or not, we're members of a hierarchy of numerous groups, and those groups can act collectively. Individual striving leads to greed and stupidity, while the striving of a class leads to the elevation of the ignorant and improverished to learning and plenty.

Id think it more nervous to submit to a "group will" that is not your own. We are members of groups, those groups can act collectively, but they cannot think collectively. Their acts are driven by the coincident wills of the individuals comprising it. Find a group you fit in. Individual striving, greed and stupidity is all there is. Greed is the fulfilment of self interest, doesn't mean you cant have coincident interests with other people. I leave in stupidity because our ideals change over time, and we can be sure we'll hit a moving target. In retrospect we are all stupid.

Hope does not lie in OUR boundless capacity to solve problems. Because WE have no problems, we can't.

I can never be sure i am human, i can never consider myself part of the whole with certainty.

 

[Mythographeas]

Id think it more nervous to submit to a "group will" that is not your own. We are members of groups, those groups can act collectively, but they cannot think collectively. Their acts are driven by the coincident wills of the individuals comprising it. Find a group you fit in. Individual striving, greed and stupidity is all there is. Greed is the fulfilment of self interest, doesn't mean you cant have coincident interests with other people. I leave in stupidity because our ideals change over time, and we can be sure we'll hit a moving target. In retrospect we are all stupid.

Hope does not lie in OUR boundless capacity to solve problems. Because WE have no problems, we can't.

I can never be sure i am human, i can never consider myself part of the whole with certainty.

What is a group other than the average of the wills of a number of individuals? One need not submit to the will of a group, one need only share one's will with a group. This doesn't constitute neurosis, unless agreement is now a sign of madness. Deliberate isolation, thinking of oneself as apart from others, being suspicious of others' motives, expecting that they will care only for themselves: that's neurotic.

It seems contradictory to imply that it's possible to submit to the will of a group and then to imply that a group can't think - does it have a will to submit to or doesn't it?

Take the word 'individual' literally: that which cannot be divided further. This doesn't mean that the individual is the only level of division, just the ultimate level of division. As I say, we do not always behave in our capacity as individuals, we also act - moreso, even - in our capacity as group members. We're aware that our actions in certain situations represent a group, and our awareness of this fact alters the way we behave, the way we communicate. In a post like this, for instance, where I speak for an ideological bloc, effectively, I'll communicate differently from how I would if I were writing about something personal to myself. I'll talk about my deviations from the ideology differently from how I'll talk about the core of the ideology.

Greed and self-interest are not all there is. We're unique in our capacity to overcome our self-interest and ignore our demands for more. We're unique in our ability to willfully starve for the sake of something abstract. We can say that we're happy to die for the sake of others, effectively ending any individual striving on our part forever. We can strive to promote the interests of the group at the expense of our own interests. This entails a loss on our part to the benefit of others from whom we expect no shared benefit, and as such, can hardly be considered greedy.

If you reject the notion of altruism, you'll presumably have heard of George R. Price, who helped lay the foundations for the evolutionary explanation of altruism (and cruelty) as genetically self-interested behaviours. Price himself came to be appalled by his own work, wishing adamantly that it wasn't true, and so he began to go out of his way to defy his genes. He became a Christian, believing in something he couldn't rationally believe in, and gave away all of his possessions to London's homeless - genetic strangers, given that he was American. Although they stole from him, he invited them to sleep in his flat until he had nothing left. Then he opened his carotid artery with a pair of nail scissors and bled to death, in a final act of defiance against the genetic dictates he himself had written.

Perhaps at the end he was mad, but perhaps madness is what distinguishes us as human. The fact that we can malfunction liberates us.

It also seems odd for you to say that one's interests can be aligned with others, and yet there are no first person plural problems. If I and several others have aligned interests, that implies that we also share problems. Those problems must be ours, then - or are you suggesting that if I were to solve one of those problems for myself, it would cease to be our problem, and start to be their problem? That could be the case, but I wouldn't allow it to be.

But this is getting to be rather off topic; if you want to talk about it more, you can PM me if you like.

 

[Ode to Trees]

No, it depends. I am sure that if all was left to humans (the fate of the world) unless we change our destructive ways, it could be rather hopeless. There are forces in humanity that fight the distruction - but how much they are powerful when greed, money, and selfishens of the rulling class (multinational companies) has gained so much power and this is due to our own fault as well.

On the other hand, do we as humans are more prone to see always first negative in the humanity or positive? I mean, the God still did not give up on us - but patiently waits (I do not wish to start a religion debate here, and another thing one should be careful whom one should trust in a religious sense - they are many false prophets out there - therefore caution and discerment should be excercised - not getting overly in love with one church or religion - you will always get disappointed - because there is not one perfect one - Read the Revalation if you want to find out that there is not the one perfect church due to human teachings that found its way to poison human spirituality- at least in the Christianity if that is one's belief system. Furthermore, I believe that the change of this system that we know will happen, and God will not allow for all humanity to perish. God is much more inclusive to include Christians only and not all who call themselves Christians are really that - so do not put all religious /or and spiritual people [not always the same and one] - into the one box). Think and feel - use your intuition, it is there since the first human -search -there are things that we innately know that are true you feel them, but small lies could make it dangerous.

What could we do in meantime to make the world a better place? We could start with something small that does make a difference - like a kind word? And by the way - people are not stupid but act stupidly (see the bell curve of IQ distribution, most people are of average intelligence - but do they have an emotional intelligence (includes empathy) that is what counts even more, because sometimes intelligent ones destroy the most - a CEO did not become a CEO by being unintelligent - but was he or she always ethical?

 

[Lad]

On average, a majority of people will talk about things they are...
1. Educated/experienced about.
2. and thus... most comfortable opening up about (usually safe things).

Truthfully, there aren't many people that are educated/comfortable talking about some of the more unfortunate circumstances in the world.

Hell, in the time it takes you to read this post roughly 51 Somalian's died of starvation. Life expectancy is 13 over there and basic necessities such as "clean" water (relative to the environment) can be 6 hours away. The truth is, even knowing this the thought may linger in your mind for a few seconds to a few minutes, and then inevitably fade away. Some may pull out their wallet, toss $20 into the pot, and temporarily save a few lives. The next day, that mortality rate will return just as high, if not higher as you only temporary prolonged the life of the people from the day prior. This can be a difficult pill to swallow that makes certain people avoid charity entirely -- not necessarily because they don't care, but because they don't see any sustained good coming from it.

In the past, I certainly had a jaded outlook on everyones willingness to help others. So, I played the role of Atlas and took it all upon myself to change it. I pretty much went to the edge of lunacy and depression simply realizing that it's a tireless effort where you can help 5 people and a million more problems just popped up elsewhere. Later I changed my scope to primarily focus on helping people that are more incline to help others -- so if I "helped" 5 of these kind of people, they will hopefully help XX people and those will XXX etc.

Finally, I combined my originally jaded perspective with my current philosophy and came up with a question. I believe everyone has a good heart, although some may be tempered based on the times. My question has always been, how do we pull that to the surface? This is where my manipulation or "Dark Psychology" comes in. Serving my own ideals for a better world (this is why I consider it dark), I use persuasive techniques heavily encourage behavior that revolves around helping others. This most often provides purpose to the aimless. Do the ends justify the means? In my mind, they do.

This is why I've always told people to never trust me. You never know if I'm helping you and your best interests, or simply furthering my own ideals through you.

 

[brendog10]

I'm still slightly unclear what is meant by humanity. Do you mean kind acts, or Humans in general?

Personaly I believe that nothing is impossible, especially things that are positive. So yes I think humanity has hope.

assuming I'm following your meaning.

 

[Bago]

On average, a majority of people will talk about things they are...
1. Educated/experienced about.
2. and thus... most comfortable opening up about (usually safe things).

Truthfully, there aren't many people that are educated/comfortable talking about some of the more unfortunate circumstances in the world.

Hell, in the time it takes you to read this post roughly 51 Somalian's died of starvation. Life expectancy is 13 over there and basic necessities such as "clean" water (relative to the environment) can be 6 hours away. The truth is, even knowing this the thought may linger in your mind for a few seconds to a few minutes, and then inevitably fade away. Some may pull out their wallet, toss $20 into the pot, and temporarily save a few lives. The next day, that mortality rate will return just as high, if not higher as you only temporary prolonged the life of the people from the day prior. This can be a difficult pill to swallow that makes certain people avoid charity entirely -- not necessarily because they don't care, but because they don't see any sustained good coming from it.

In the past, I certainly had a jaded outlook on everyones willingness to help others. So, I played the role of Atlas and took it all upon myself to change it. I pretty much went to the edge of lunacy and depression simply realizing that it's a tireless effort where you can help 5 people and a million more problems just popped up elsewhere. Later I changed my scope to primarily focus on helping people that are more incline to help others -- so if I "helped" 5 of these kind of people, they will hopefully help XX people and those will XXX etc.

Finally, I combined my originally jaded perspective with my current philosophy and came up with a question. I believe everyone has a good heart, although some may be tempered based on the times. My question has always been, how do we pull that to the surface? This is where my manipulation or "Dark Psychology" comes in. Serving my own ideals for a better world (this is why I consider it dark), I use persuasive techniques heavily encourage behavior that revolves around helping others. This most often provides purpose to the aimless. Do the ends justify the means? In my mind, they do.

This is why I've always told people to never trust me. You never know if I'm helping you and your best interests, or simply furthering my own ideals through you.

You have hit the nail on the head. It is one about "scope". As selfish as it sounds now, I have narrowed my scope of "help" too. I also try not to become codependent any more with my local community, or my old colleagues. Although, the social model is more as described as familial ties or tribal. Once you are a part of this, then you do things which makes this survive. I think in my life time, I have had this and it went from this to a religion-based community. (Which is what I am seeking now.) I cannot see myself as a globalist. I truly cannot. Although I do have the experience to be one. I don't want the idea that everybody will follow the same rules without their own free will to define their own worldview and environment.

I always thought that it is a given assumption when one is being ethical or being social. Cos the momentum to help others, and the realisation of the 3rd world country issues are more prominent than ever before. There are so many NGOs that exist. I don't think that one has to be "dark" without the honesty to stand up and say that "this is my aim". Cos if you are a member of such a group and doing such work, then that itself speaks volume of your idealism too. The ones take such things seriously will just do. Others who do not want to participate won't. No need for coercion or for any "manipulation" and so forth. Cos if it came from a true heart, the work or value of the work done speaks volume actually.

I've helped people in flooding situations before, and I can see the greed that comes from people's eyes and mouth. Yet, when they realise who donated things, and why those people did it, they change their own tune and their own heart. You may not get their own admission of wrongly judged views, but once they learn, and really understand why... their pride will go. They are less greedy.

 

[LibertyPrime]

I'm more concerned with overpopulation and mental underdevelopment. There are only so much resources and so much space. Tha facts are humans depend on habitat, humans are too successful for their own good, we multiply at an exponential rate and soon we'll reach the stage where current technology and social systems can not hope to cope with everything.

A big war or some form of culling is most likely inevitable if we can't come together and solve major problems. Lack of resources, jobs and many other things can trigger plenty a crap.

Interesting times we live in. The human psyche needs to evolve and overcome such problems or we'll fail as a species.

IMO.

 

[Acey]

In the grand scheme of things? Yes i do think humanity is doomed. But the fate of humanity is generally irrelevant to us. Our life is just a spark, and it can be a very wonderful thing.

 

[cityofcircuits]

Humanity as it is is doomed. To see how messed up and pathetic our race is, just read any history book: nothing but bloodshed over materialism and greedy selfish desires. And history has shown we can't fix ourselves. We have thousands of years as a track record to prove every effort of government has failed-all types.

I recognize that some can be shut-off from the belief in a God or in one that can fix things. Organized religion throughout history has done a fine job of being hypocrites-for the most part, not all. But I still believe there is God that wants to fix things and will. That's just my opinion, I have no faith in humanity at all, just look at history. The only things I appreciate out of our history is the Arts' in all it's forms. None of that is regrettable imho.

 

[Up and Away]

Why are you responsible for humanity?

You help others because you have an urge to do so.

But if you create a utopia, what makes you think that ease wont just breed addiction and laziness?

Some hardship is good, and some people will lash out and become destructive, or withdrawal and become depressed, rather than find their spirituality, acceptance, and serenity.

But you have said where you think people need help.

Do I think its hopeless? No, that would be the withdrawal depressed me speaking if I agreed to that. I think there is a plan to it, and that I have a part in it.

 

[Aurum]

"Hope springs eternal..."