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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
It's been 2 and a half years since I joined... or started to learn about it. Initially I watched some "vlogs" on YT, but I remember even then there were quite a number of "self-help" videos out there... I always liked the honest, confessional, personal videos more than all these didactic, starting with the cognitive functions... then giving some plain examples, all narrowed down, reduced, prepackaged for easy digestion, simplified, etc. commercial bullshit.

And I remember the forum... I posted something, gone unnoticed. I think the most informative stuff I found were back from 2007. This whole MBTi online community is a huge wasteland. It was, I guess, a place for middle class, upper middle class people to have some intelligent discussion, now it's all littered by working class refugees/social climbers, swiping away on their smartphones an' chewin' bubblegum. There's no real thought, no intellectual output anymore, it's like everyone here, and also on the other forums, is squatting, waiting around, milling around, loafing around, lounging about and trolling, spurting trash all over, scatological quantities of internet low content, memes, nonrelated pics, ads, etc. just for the sake of being lifted up by typology. And every once in a while someone asks, what my type is? Just to be sure the test wasn't faulty. Just to have the correct image on, you know, like on tinder, the right image; siggy full with every typology you need. Gotta look smart on a smart forum.

And of course the Enneagram 1 forum is the least active. That's the part of typology that is not supposed to exist, because typology, ultimately, is a liberal ideal, a left-wing mecca of refuge from a world that is kept together, more or less, by stifling disciplines, orthodox rules, unfeeling structures. Typology is where people don't want to be imposed any confines, regulations but they still want typology for them to work by some unexplained magic. They do the test, put out their results and wait around, chat around as in a bar, half-serious, more friendly than earnest, waiting for the right type to come over. And no criticism whatsoever can be applied in a world of soft-science, humanities, especially online, so one designates their type, and that will fit every category. It will be the right type. Just make sure to produce your politeness - this guy is in the wrong to be in denial about it, no wonder he didn't make any friends over here, he was leaning too much on theory and categorization, when in real life, the most basic of the basics is that wherever you are, be respectful, put on your best smile, have a firm handshake and most obstacles are out of the way for making a firm relationship. You don't need typology; still, typology is there to make it more fun. Just for you.

Typology may seem an endless poetry interpretation, until you realize this goes on in real life, people assuming job positions that have nothing to do with their real skills. Manipulating their image, resumé, pulling threads to climb high on the social ladder. But since typology is just 16 types and Enneagram some arcane voodoo-open-for-interpretation artifact, then who am I to tell that you mistyped yourself...? there are always more types around for typology to stay loose, chill, no restricting, no vexingly keeping you in a box, no, it's all the land of the free. Of the deconstruct-everything Ne-doms. Except for the policing that's not built into its ideology. Because what are type-police if not definition-tyrants? Who are they to redefine, explain away your charming skills, your magnificent, brilliant, multi-faceted personality of great depths? In the land of the free, everyone's greatness can shine to the same extent. (well, except for the bad guys who wanted to restrict "the majority's" freedom, they cannot have a golden personality...)

And others, the YT vid guys, are making money out of it. They spew around platitudes on top of more banalities in HD quality, high-key lighting and expect me to believe they can afford research, did their homework and know MBTi in and out as if they had a twelve-sealed degree of it. Not that any science required any kind of social standing first for people to be able to catch up with in, build on it.... Monetize is the idea, put your make-up on and generate dollops, and dollops of redundant data, where all the theory gets diluted, rigidified into stereotypes and oily smiles of fake salesmanship and lost in that uncanny inauthenticity and discord when one tries to cash in on their "own" type.

Of course what was I expecting. People dare only to ask for real, uncompromising, stonehard feedback about themselves on their deathbed. On but those of rare occasions with their lovers under the blanket, lights off and with a faint voice inquiring whether they really thought them as cool as they show themselves to the outside world. It's the 5 minutes or less brutally honest introspection you ever did in your life. The 5 minutes philosophical moment when you hold on to something to earnestly consider whether we really go against the grain or just pretend rebelliousness because that's cool & helps fit in with the others. (i.e. Typology is always already rebellious. or cutting edge. and cool. and the Russians or Chinese, where people don't have types, relevant personalities, individually distinct features are just a mass of losers who only come over here because desperately want to be somebody but can't, because they don't allow themselves the cult. of personality and the god of capital, hence Communism is always already uncool.)

The 5 minutes when we reflect on having taken on sweatpants and fitbit to look like we've been working out, some big glasses and a hefty book on some pop-psychology to not just be but perform middle class, to be on the right path to self-improvement, not to just kid around, show them that serious commitment for once, the I'm real dammit, I'm friggin real NOW!
... oh, ***k you all. I only pity myself for not knowing the signs of that (typically American) culture, their ways of relating to decode what that sugary surface hides underneath. Because realistic thinking can only tell, whenever there's a trauma, a big tear on the social fabric, 9/11, some exposure of an "inconvenient truth," people will always agree with you, nod there heads to reduce the discomfiting, the grating inability to change it, all of a sudden the masses to change direction, hence slowly the wound will heal itself. The biggest trauma is that we will always forget the traumas, the memory of pain and will never learn from our mistakes, let alone redeem the excruciating injuries of others' denied, muted, neglected past sliding into oblivion. (yea, that colonialist outsourcing, sweatshops, deportation, trash dumping in 3rd w. countries, you know what I'm talking about). And never forget your type, folks, otherwise socieyeaty will think we're the invasion of the type snatchers.
(or better yet, act enraged and tell me you've had this all in mind, all along, just right now been thinking about speaking up, I'm so a snowflake to feel alone with this... :p)
 

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I hope you did feel more ordered and clear for getting that out there.

I do find your assumption that type might dictate one's social class or political alignments slightly curious. You've even bolded it in there. Be careful with associating limited education with limited intelligence and types you idolise with your political ideals, you may be unpleasantly surprised.

Source: a wishy washy lefty type 1 with professional and academic achievements in the humanities, being myself.

The Type 1 forum is dead because we're all misanthropes. :sulkiness:
 

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I agree with the title, disagree with the post :D

Is it you? I dont know, there is a lot of trash in here :D. Trash opinions, trash logic, trash conclusions, trash world views, trash personalities, trash types, trash derivatives, trash hybrids, trash, trash appliances, trash accessories :D

The Type 1 forum is dead because we're all misanthropes. :sulkiness:
I think its because the 1s often regard typology as a waste of time and are guided by the superego to do more productive things. 3 and 1 is a combination that I see pretty often, the stereotypical goody-two-shoes overachiever type, theyre too busy working themselves to the grave for example to spend time shooting the shit on PerC :D
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I hope you did feel more ordered and clear for getting that out there.

I do find your assumption that type might dictate one's social class or political alignments slightly curious. You've even bolded it in there. Be careful with associating limited education with limited intelligence and types you idolise with your political ideals, you may be unpleasantly surprised.

Source: a wishy washy lefty type 1 with professional and academic achievements in the humanities, being myself.

The Type 1 forum is dead because we're all misanthropes. :sulkiness:
I did not assume what you state in the bolded. Maybe I should've refined: the demography of typology has changed. Typology may be viewed now as "virtue signalling" (cf. The Sum of Small Things by Elizabeth Currid-Halkett) done by ones in need to adjust profession their professional image to catch up with new labor market demands shaped by the transition into "service economy" (i.e. "knowledge workers" over industrial ones). Soft skills are in vogue, yet what I learned about America (I guess a significant number of typology members are from) is that its "Rust Belt" region still lags behind.
I don't "idolize" types with my political ideals but what I also learned from Jon Haidt's The Righteous Mind is first, the meaning of American political denominations (which differs from country to country) and relative to that the ethical awareness each has. Leftists seek novelty to escape confining regulation, while rightists seek security in regulation. What leftists are naive about is the negligibility of the need to have grounded foundations, firm structures. Typology, from a public formed around a (more or less) science has turned into a... "lifestyle enclave," a club for refugees escaping life's incongruities.

In that sense, typology is progressive, tries to find new solutions for societal injustices; however, the way its fandom treats it is more opportunist instead of communitarian. The only community here is a loose a network of people who believe that the tests, the source material and the mods and admins are "in the right hands," i.e. that there's a stable, available reference point to which they can measure the accuracy of their knowledge, it is not their sole responsibility to find out whether they know it right or not. But how can the admins know it right? We have an ESTP for admin wtf. I wrote to some once when got offended or sticky something but were non-responsive. I remember someone on TypeC admitting to be a diff. type than what's on their siggy... with time managed to figure out they weren't "abstract" /intuitives but why change that. Guess we're living times when that sells more. It's not about feeding back the findings as a communitarian reform but what you individually can make the most out of it. How you can monetize on YT by making "documentaries," typology punditism, etc.

Perfectionists are not misanthropes but the demography of typology does not have (enough) representatives of the "silent majority."
It's a place of liberal minded people who stumbled upon it, latched onto it and now believe that solely becoming a fan, batting the breeze, chewing on typology will make their lot better. Anyone's lot can hardly get better without attempting to fix the core of the system. In fact, probably the biggest problem in the world is that people were trying to profit on loopholes, opportunistically get farther from accountability and far from the ulcerous core. There's no gold backing the dollar, it's become credit money, I heard.
It would be very naive to think the same interdependency didn't apply to typology that it had this magical property to restore itself whenever someone skewed it to display their own fictional version of "reality." That there is a "safety net" against its abuse (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?). There was reality to typology but without the representation of all the angles, of all the types, it has daredevilishly lost its ground, turning from a neutral science to blind ideology. It's not that manifest yet but one who's not represented in the demography can feel it in the underlying attitudes, behavior of the loose community: egoism, indulgence, consumerist responsibility- and reality-check relegation, party for life, etc. It has diluted and is spreading to social layers to whom the original theory may not apply the same way... or that the type-stereotypes associated to originally middle-class fans are now appropriated by working class people. Essentially, there is no typology anymore, only the unraveling of (a new tool of) civilization.


P.s. "misanthrope," "hermit," "introvert," "nerd," "loner," "anti-social," "homebody" nowadays are also self-fashioning strategies appealing to withdrawal from civic responsibility. They connote transparency, authenticity in self-isolation (see Thoreau's Walden) only to downplay one's conniving, partisan investments in social ties relative to a greater cause (the nature of their alliances). Wider community, interdependency with a greater scheme did not cease to exist, yet people now pretend as they were able to exist being cut off from the whole - of course they're still obliged to their alliances but its something they do not want to be accounted for - i.e. regarding what fragment of the whole they're partisan to that exempts them to contribute to the whole/greater good. Typology is partisan because it turns a blind eye to the existence of a communitarian, perfectionist (dissecting, pragmatist, optimum organization oriented), non-enterprising/non-neoliberal ethic.
 

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What leftists are naive about is the negligibility of the need to have grounded foundations, firm structures. Typology, from a public formed around a (more or less) science has turned into a... "lifestyle enclave," a club for refugees escaping life's incongruities.
While many on the left may suffer from an echo chamber that excuses poorly grounded statements, Typology has never been grounded in anything. It is not normed, nor is it empirically validated. The belief that things should be based on "natural sciences" is a preposterous notion of the Victorian era that is based on a Newtonian and Kantian worldview that is unable to reconcile with the changing nature of knowledge. Growing understanding of the fields of quantum mechanics chaotic dynamics has showed the inadequacy of those older world views.

There's no gold backing the dollar, it's become credit money, I heard.
I hope you mean this figuratively. The US basically went off the gold standard in 1933, and completely went off it in 1971. No country in the world currently uses a Gold standard. The number of economic factors involved in the last 46 years make it far too complicated to tie any one thing to the changing of the currency from gold backed to a fiat currency.

There was reality to typology but without the representation of all the angles, of all the types, it has daredevilishly lost its ground, turning from a neutral science to blind ideology. It's not that manifest yet but one who's not represented in the demography can feel it in the underlying attitudes, behavior of the loose community: egoism, indulgence, consumerist responsibility- and reality-check relegation, party for life, etc. It has diluted and is spreading to social layers to whom the original theory may not apply the same way... or that the type-stereotypes associated to originally middle-class fans are now appropriated by working class people. Essentially, there is no typology anymore, only the unraveling of (a new tool of) civilization.
When exactly was there a reality to typology? It has merits, and it can be a useful tool, but when exactly was there a "reality" to it? What did this reality constitute? What "real" thing was it based on? How did something "real" suddenly become not real?

I get it. You're frustrated. You aren't finding the intellectual stimulation that you once did in an online forum. Has it occurred to you that at least part of it may be because you are older? Things that interested you a decade ago may no longer interest you. Or possible that it was never any more or less interesting, but you just lost interest in it because it no longer lived up to your idealized notion of what you believed it to be?

Society changes, and our interests change as we get older. There is no reason to blame in on the decline of society as a whole.
 

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Damn dude. That was actually true.

Whenever I'm really researching for serious mbti stuffs, i google it, and find honest and realistic opinions from real mbti users. (which mostly came from the past)

Now, seriously, people are really stupid. XD

Especially on typing someone else, it's really flawed like it gives me #facepalm

And people acts like sterotype bullshits. When someone on their own type doesn't act like on of them, they'll just impose how to act like their type. Like the basis, the source is not their own experience but the sterotypes descriptions of what's said in the Internet.

Like people act like what type they want to become.. Rather than acting their real self.

Worst thing is, those stupid people doesn't want to be criticised they think they're right. Like actually, I'm also very frustrated as well. Like seriously as much as i waste my time here i also wanna learn some intelligent input but then, i cannot find one.

Probably forums like this aren't anymore reliable.

Just Google your problems and dig in on old posts.

Because most people here have no idea of what they're doing or what they're saying.

#don't trust me either; do your own homework because you can never trust anyone in the Internet as everyone is freely entitled to make his/her opinion
 

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If you want something interesting to read, that approaches things from a totally different Ego development theory, which is a further development of the work of Jane Loevinger, so it has a fairly solid base. Spiral dynamics can also be nice because it looks more at group/society level effects, but beware that Spiral dynamics has been forked a few times by different people, some have turned it into something to make their ego feel better about itself.

If you're not familiar with the work of John Beebe on cognitive function attitude archetypal complexes, then this summary is the one I keep coming back to. It's also insightful wrt to the shadow/ego-dystonic attitudes, which are often ignored. Deep understanding of this really helped me to put the MBTI types and the people associated with it into perspective, much more than the short type description based approaches.

If you really want type descriptions, the 16 personalities has fairly decent ones, that don't seem to aim to ignore the gifts and the weaknesses of each type.

I haven't discovered a magical cure to some of the bullshit that's around, only to figure out person by person, if they are sincere human beings. But if you have any ideas that don't involve creating a "Brave new world"-esque situation, I'd love to hear.
 
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@Neokortex

I'm pretty much done with typology. I'm a Pod'Lairite now. I just keep using typological terms for communication purposes here.

Their correction of typology makes much more sense. For example the primary dichotomy isn't objective or subjective but directive and adaptive.

It's related to people being inherently specialized. In MBTI typings, you have types all over the place, no matter what they do for living.

In Pod'Lair, reads are much more likely to cluster in various fields. Because Pod'Lair is energy based. First two powers of the psyche give energy, two last curb energy.
Reads are based among other things people communicate non-verbally - for example - going back to times when there wasn't spoken language - there are people who gain energy from pointing things out to other, giving directions, moving people around. It all includes specific kinds of gestures - directive gesturing.
For example almost all politicians have directive gesturing as their natural state that gives them energy. That's why almost all politicians are directives.
Later when speech evolved, directives got ability to gain energy from articulating.

People who are adaptive (MBTI Perceivers) are losing energy by articulation, pushing agenda, directive gesturing. This makes them unable to compete in field of politics.


One interesting thing is that people inherit their type from parent of the same sex. Lots of people think they are different types than their parent/siblings of the same sex, but it's because of different sequence of birth, life experiences, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Typology is no science. If you're looking for science, you've evidently been looking in the wrong place for a long time. Also - why the implication that refugees have lower quality of thought than the middle class?
Perhaps they just don't have patience, time for theorizing. I feel a lot of the posts come from an instant gratification place. Sure, they can make smart conclusions at times but it's not their first priority. Typology feels like a lab experiment gone public, what once was a small community of dedicated individuals, now is like a football field of fake cheerleaders and a mass of loafers faking to be interested or showing some interest but not really having time for it in the middle of the commotion. "Just gimme the test, just gimme your readings based on my case I've posted," quick times demand quick answers.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
If you want something interesting to read, that approaches things from a totally different Ego development theory, which is a further development of the work of Jane Loevinger, so it has a fairly solid base. Spiral dynamics can also be nice because it looks more at group/society level effects, but beware that Spiral dynamics has been forked a few times by different people, some have turned it into something to make their ego feel better about itself.

If you're not familiar with the work of John Beebe on cognitive function attitude archetypal complexes, then this summary is the one I keep coming back to. It's also insightful wrt to the shadow/ego-dystonic attitudes, which are often ignored. Deep understanding of this really helped me to put the MBTI types and the people associated with it into perspective, much more than the short type description based approaches.

If you really want type descriptions, the 16 personalities has fairly decent ones, that don't seem to aim to ignore the gifts and the weaknesses of each type.

I haven't discovered a magical cure to some of the bullshit that's around, only to figure out person by person, if they are sincere human beings. But if you have any ideas that don't involve creating a "Brave new world"-esque situation, I'd love to hear.
@Neokortex

I'm pretty much done with typology. I'm a Pod'Lairite now. [...] In Pod'Lair, reads are much more likely to cluster in various fields. Because Pod'Lair is energy based. First two powers of the psyche give energy, two last curb energy.
Reads are based among other things people communicate non-verbally - for example - going back to times when there wasn't spoken language - there are people who gain energy from pointing things out to other, giving directions, moving people around. It all includes specific kinds of gestures - directive gesturing.
For example almost all politicians have directive gesturing as their natural state that gives them energy. That's why almost all politicians are directives. [...] People who are adaptive (MBTI Perceivers) are losing energy by articulation, pushing agenda, directive gesturing. This makes them unable to compete in field of politics.
Thanks guys, sounds like interesting stuff! The pessimist in me says there will be no end to typology theories. Every now and then a new one is invented not only to correct or complement the one that's been taken over (and modified) but also to justify isolation from the mainstream. It's very controversial, I know. But perhaps science has not been always only about explicitly intellectual pursuits but also about choosing intellectual pursuit for socioeconomic separation. I'm now thinking about monkhood, schooling in monasteries in medieval Europe, seen as a form of social mobility, like the university schooling we have now. There's a lot of elitism to it, but at the same time a necessity. When science gets too much accessible to public hands, it becomes enmeshed with politics. But yeah, question is whether we take psychology or this subfield of personality psychology as science at all. Either ways, the proliferation of theories suggests to me at least a will to move on, to move out, start over. How many times will we have to start over?
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
While many on the left may suffer from an echo chamber that excuses poorly grounded statements, Typology has never been grounded in anything. It is not normed, nor is it empirically validated. The belief that things should be based on "natural sciences" is a preposterous notion of the Victorian era that is based on a Newtonian and Kantian worldview that is unable to reconcile with the changing nature of knowledge. Growing understanding of the fields of quantum mechanics chaotic dynamics has showed the inadequacy of those older world views.

...

When exactly was there a reality to typology? It has merits, and it can be a useful tool, but when exactly was there a "reality" to it? What did this reality constitute? What "real" thing was it based on? How did something "real" suddenly become not real?
"Typology" is and has always been a form of collective wisdom. This wisdom changes with every age, depending on what qualities, skills that certain geography, economical-, political situation demands. Media output is one of it, like the American '80s cartoons and films idolized the character of what we call now "ESTP" with echoes of the pioneering "manifest destiny" ideology. But nowadays we have typology, we have media but we don't have wisdom. And by that I mean a more or less or the most possible balance of understanding, when no type is inherently better than the other or external circumstances, situations don't under-emphasize the value of other types. Arguably, there's never been any objectivity to values, but to me at least, that's the utopia of typology.

Part of the reason for coming back late to the topic and forum I abandoned was that I had to come terms with my own vanity. More so, my narcissism that which seem to overlap with the Enneagram 4w3 descriptions. I wasn't aware of how much I'm controlled by my "w3" or this drive to get validation from others, to be seen as competent, "good enough" + advancing those feelings, generating pride out of thin air, to cover up my sense of futility, weakness, vulnerability, etc. In other words, this tone of activism and slight nostalgia that you guys may have noticed in the topic starter is just the facade of a frustrated 3.

Yet, I believe frustration is not only my experience in the wider typology community. To sum up, I'm irritated by:

1. the loafers. (the fans of the fans, the slowpokes who are here but I just can't engage with them normally because they're either too young, or just not well versed or just here to vent whatever to whoever, instead of contributing usefully.)

2. the advertisers, opportunists (or the "gurus" you can see on YT, the self-proclaimed teachers, the "knowers" of typology, the ones who see it as a capitalist venture, who try to garner a mass following, attempt to make it huge, so the more views, more followers, more profit.

3. Admins, mods without credentials. (or the "let's make a psychology forum amateur style!"-attitude) +wout time +wout skills of discernment, a willingness to negotiate ethics, see things from both sides

So back to that wisdom-thing. I think it's important to keep up the discipline and have a skeptical mind about the value system of the immediate culture/community one finds him/herself in. For values are politics. And self-removal/"stepping out" is also important to allow for thinking outside of the box, to be less biased, yet simultaneously one should also go back to check back with reality. My point is that there needs to be a kernel of scientist minded persons, whose intellectual motivation is way higher than their desire for fame, their greed, their pursuit of power, etc. These people should be the admins of the forum. They should be interested enough to be willing to challenge their biases; moreover, to be willing to undergo personal "transformation," if that's possible at all. After all, if I want to be objective, I have to admit that Enneagram 8s or high Te types have uses at certain circumstances. So these "scientists" would be the keepers and preservers of knowledge and would also act as a filter, allow new members in, disallow others from higher tiers of typology.

I feel the problem here is the same with every liberal "stepping out" agendas, be it communes, creating communities for LGBTQ, etc. The idea is great but while escaping an orthodox, parochial, conservative former system, they create one that will eventually fall apart bc it's either too heterogeneous, thus fragmented, pulling apart, or its general-ness exclusive and stifling the same way the old system was, so a part will have to move out again.

I think an ultimate goal of typology is to combat inequality in the world, while at the same time acknowledging differences. Everyone is special, some might deserve more if that helps keep balance, but not the point where others will have to cope with less.

I get it. You're frustrated. You aren't finding the intellectual stimulation that you once did in an online forum. Has it occurred to you that at least part of it may be because you are older? Things that interested you a decade ago may no longer interest you. Or possible that it was never any more or less interesting, but you just lost interest in it because it no longer lived up to your idealized notion of what you believed it to be?

Society changes, and our interests change as we get older. There is no reason to blame in on the decline of society as a whole.

My first frustration was that I couldn't find anyone here who thought the same way or a complementary way that would make up for lasting, worthwhile conversations. Obviously community is there to allow people to meet. I feel it was due only in part to my culture (E-EU), the other is the background prevail of the mods (being active or passive at specific times) that invisibly sets the culture of the community to a certain tone, where certain subtypes become valued, others undervalued. And my second frustration is that from my perspective I don't feel this forum, as well as the others are going anywhere. Maybe not towards the direction of my agenda. But as much as I am passionate about reading types and organizing these readings into categories (which, arguably, everyone does here, in different ways, with diff. outcomes), I feel I couldn't find the same zeal with others. It's like I wanted more intimacy, people to open up more, yet, obviously, no one wants to be a test subject and who on earth would ever want to grant a stranger a blue print of their personality, right? + also, all this intellectual pursuit may well be my narcissism speaking to maintain its ivory tower.

So back to the question of science or not + the end note.
Perhaps it will always stay an incomplete "science." Hence, I emphasized the materialist perspective: people are here to meet as well as to insure their chances for social mobility. There are exceptions as always, but I adhere to the idea that people from certain social class don't necessarily mingle well with people from a lower class. Or a higher one. In general. I hope that if the forum also had delineators, perhaps implicit ones that would create healthier clusters of communities, instead of lumping everyone together under an all too general rule set.

I hope you mean this figuratively. The US basically went off the gold standard in 1933, and completely went off it in 1971. No country in the world currently uses a Gold standard. The number of economic factors involved in the last 46 years make it far too complicated to tie any one thing to the changing of the currency from gold backed to a fiat currency.
I read it in an article, that all this fiat/debit currency does is to create more debt which gets compensated by the wars and the cheaper prices coerced for oil or clothes or the production of goods by other country's industry that has been privatized to be U.S. property, deregulated so as the U.S. don't need to be responsible to the shitty working conditions people have to suffer, toxic waste, etc. I still have the article.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
How about instead of whining you be the change you wanna see etc.
Because whining is and will always be a legit part of the process. Only through candid emotional expression can we size up people's real wants and desires and then their true personality to be able to come to a middle ground. I don't believe there's another culture that bashes complaint as much as the Western (individualism oriented, esp. American).
 

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Discussion Starter #19
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Is it you? I dont know, there is a lot of trash in here. Trash opinions, trash logic, trash conclusions, trash world views, trash personalities, trash types, trash derivatives, trash hybrids, trash, trash appliances, trash accessories.
Don't forget anime trash.
:tongue:
 
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