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Rather than accepting how things are and just getting on with your life?

A recurrent theme in bible stories is of people who run away from their responsibilities, their 'destiny' or what God is commanding them to do because they are 'driven by ego' and want something better for themselves, and usually because they won't accept what they have, and what's expected of them, their life's become even more terrible and difficult, until they do accept their destiny. Probably the most obvious story with this theme is 'Johanna and the whale' but 'Jacob and Esau' stands out also with Esau being a man driven by ego and Jacob being quite manipulative but nonetheless humble and obeying and thus being chosen to lead the people of Israel.

In modern times, we are told by our parents and teachers that we can 'be' whatever we want to be and 'do' whatever we want to do, but is that always the case in the real world, and does it just condition us into believing that low paid work and long hours is beneath us? is it beneath us? is it wrong to want better than that?

I am unemployed at the moment. I've accepted that I am going to have to get a job and that that job is going to be long hours and low pay. So long as that isn't for the rest of my life then I don't mind that.

I am getting pushed into doing a trade though or apprenticeship/internship because that is the best kind of jobs out there at the moment especially for people my age. However I don't want to do that. Why? I guess because I would rather hide out in university/college for a few years rather than enter the real world and get a real career. But I do feel that university would be a better option for 'long term happiness' as it gives me the option to study something I love but more importantly gain some skills, build self confidence and meet new people (I literally have no friends in my life at moment) all of which I need at the moment and don't feel that I will gain through an apprenticeship route. Not to mention I did a type of apprenticeship in the past and it didn't work out not because I was lazy but just because I lacked the ability to do the job, lacked self confidence and trust in myself to take on quite a large amount of responsibility that was being placed on me.

Is it wrong though that I would rather go to university? Should I just grow up and get an apprenticeship instead?

Is individual happiness important or is it more important that you accept what society wants or expects from you?
 

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MOTM August 2012
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Just sounds like you are having issues with Extraverted Thinking in general (and probably a few specific Extraverted Thinking types).

The Biblical argument you make I think might be slightly inappropriate to the situation you spell out in your own life, because in the Bible, egocentricity (if you want to call it that) or pride or whatever, is a problem because of the obvious blind spots it produces in people. "Pride cometh before a fall," and the Bible is filled with numerous stories of people who were too caught up in their own follies and ended up being overcome by their circumstances. That is much more in line with the ideas behind say Jung's psychological types or the MBTI which basically teach wholeness or learning not be egocentric (or acknowledging your shadow in Jungian parlance) so that you don't over-inflate yourself to the point of major problems.

But what you are describing in your own life just sounds like typical Extraverted Thinking types who habitually downplay the self in favor of some 'higher' concept like having money, paying bills, having a good job, etc. These are all externally derived concepts that Extraverted Judgment types adhere to, and this will necessarily come at the downplay of the self ("what I want is not important, the only thing is important is having a good job and stability," or something to that effect). This is certainly a fine way for people like that get through life, and many of them do just fine, with perfect credit scores to boot, but all this downplay of your own values can come at a price (aka midlife crisis when people begin to ask whether or not they've been doing what they've wanted to do all along or have just following some path laid out for them -- the Extraverted Judgment type's burden). To me it sounds like you are someone who would much rather prefer to write your own ticket, do things as you see fit, and that you are in an environment that is not supportive of this.

The thing you have to understand is you're not going to change as an Introverted Feeling type and they're not going change as Extraverted Thinking types (and nor is the world) and so you will just have to find some way to reconcile the two. Simply being disgusted or mad at the outer world (as introverts tend to do) doesn't really help anything but rather forces you to be more self-oriented which doesn't help you. It's all about balance. There is merit to those worldly principles, but there is also merit in pursuing what is right for you.
 

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But what you are describing in your own life just sounds like typical Extraverted Thinking types who habitually downplay the self in favor of some 'higher' concept like having money, paying bills, having a good job, etc. These are all externally derived concepts that Extraverted Judgment types adhere to, and this will necessarily come at the downplay of the self ("what I want is not important, the only thing is important is having a good job and stability," or something to that effect). This is certainly a fine way for people like that get through life, and many of them do just fine, with perfect credit scores to boot, but all this downplay of your own values can come at a price (aka midlife crisis when people begin to ask whether or not they've been doing what they've wanted to do all along or have just following some path laid out for them -- the Extraverted Judgment type's burden). To me it sounds like you are someone who would much rather prefer to write your own ticket, do things as you see fit, and that you are in an environment that is not supportive of this.

I always advise people career hunting to just follow their heart. Honestly, if your not happy at your job, get another one. If you need more school, do it. If your happy working at burger king and can pay your bills somehow, because a relative died and you inherited money, then do that. Really, who gives a crap, as long as you feel happy. Like the song "Don't worry, be happy"
 

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This thread title is a bit misleading..

It should read something more like.. Should I choose Uni or take a trade?.

Nobody has to live with you 24/7 except yourself.. So who cares what makes "them" happy..
If money isn't your thing.. Fuck'em .. Do what you feel you were meant to do.
Real success is when work is play.. Something you would be doing anyway regardless of the pay.
 

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Is individual happiness important or is it more important that you accept what society wants or expects from you?
Seriously?
Neither is more important. You choose which is more important to you and that makes you who you are.

I will say this, being happy is a choice. It might be a hard choice sometimes, but it is a choice.
Also, the fact that you think you know what you need to ensure long-term happiness just goes to show and you already have the ability to do whatever and however you want. So start doing it already.
 

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Going to university is never wrong in itself, nor is getting that apprenticeship you talked about. You also talked about shying away from a situation where people expected a lot from you (responsibilities). I figure both studying and employment require you to apply yourself. You, however use the words "hide out" when talking about going to university.

To me, that sounds like you're having a hard time choosing between either more education or getting a job, because you're making that choice into a choice between growing up and/or staying right where you are right now. What makes you say that you have yet to grow up? What does growing up mean to you? What kind of person do you imagine when you think about a grown up?

From my own experience I can say that both going to school and working 40 hours a week will change you. Both experiences will present you with opportunities to grow. Deciding between studying and working isn't deciding between remaining who you are and growing up, I feel. Depending on your age you could chose either option. Just know that when you're 25+, having a job will be meaningful. By that age, your body is more than ready to participate and help out wherever, doing whatever - even if your mind is in a different place.

Finally, individual happiness and answering society's call to participate and applying yourself aren't mutually exclusive. When you see that you're making a difference in the real world, no matter how small; you'll be pleased. The same goes the other way around. Giving yourself to others (society) will be most effective when you start out with being happy. Or, as the bible you mentioned puts it: Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. (2 Corinthians 9:7)

I sincerely hope that this post isn't a waste of your time, 'cause when reading it back it feels kind of preachy to me.
 
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Wrong to pursue happiness? I think you should strike such notions from your thought process. If that were the case, we’d still be covered in hair, eating berries and slinging poo at the walls of our caves (not that there is anything wrong with that, for those so inclined). Nothing is ‘wrong’ or ‘right’ but that an individual perceives it to be so based on her/his subjective morality. Everyone I know or have encountered, myself included, is motivated by ego, by self-interest, it is just that some are honest about it and some are not. I have know ambitious, inwardly focused individuals who achieved great success and contentment with no negative setbacks, and humble, pious types who were beset by tribulations at every turn, never achieving anything approaching happiness.

I fall firmly within the free-will camp, and do not subscribe to the notion of destinies, other than those we fashion ourselves. You do not have a destiny. You have desires, goals, propensities, and aversions. What responsibilities do really you have, other than those you willingly take upon yourself? Do not let others thrust some assumed sense of obligation and responsibility upon you. You owe nothing to no one. Also, regarding this Jacob fellow, having dealt with the species on occasion, leading a group of humans to anywhere for any reason sounds like a major headache and a lot of unnecessary work.

You can certainly do whatever you wish, or at least attempt it. No one is guaranteed success in a given field. If I were a parent, I would, tell my children precisely the same thing…but if they wanted to go to university they would have to find a way to finance it, or at least the vast majority of it, themselves. I had a partial scholarship, held down various jobs, took out loans and then joined the military to fund mine (which I got only recently, but then I never much cared for university, and only pursued it piecemeal and halfheartedly). A good half of my adult life up to this point was spent working various unskilled jobs (many with incredibly long hours and low pay), saving up, and quitting to backpack. The other was spent in the military. One job in a factory involved working 7 days a week, 10-16 hours a day, for about a year and a half, with only the occasion Saturday or Sunday off, by which time I had forgotten what to do with a day off. But it funded a really awesome trip to Asia. Was I always content? No, but I would have been less content if I had let others decide my path.

I think it is really a matter of horizons and preferences. No one other than yourself should really have any say in what you decide to do with your life (again, unless perhaps they are paying for it). Why resign yourself to a dreary existence living someone else’s notion of what you should and should not be? Everything is the ‘real’ world and every job is a ‘real’ job.
 

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In modern times, we are told by our parents and teachers that we can 'be' whatever we want to be and 'do' whatever we want to do, but is that always the case in the real world, and does it just condition us into believing that low paid work and long hours is beneath us? is it beneath us? is it wrong to want better than that?
I have mixed ideas as to whether this benefits society, to tell children they can be whatever they want. For the most part, I have come to understand this statement is true, but it must be presented with a clause at the end... "So long as you're willing to sacrifice whatever it takes to achieve it."

Most people are not, and so most of us never achieve our childhood dreams. We eventually learn, that we don't really want our dream because it doesn't fit with the life we want to lead nor does it fit with the person we are.


I am unemployed at the moment. I've accepted that I am going to have to get a job and that that job is going to be long hours and low pay. So long as that isn't for the rest of my life then I don't mind that.

Is it wrong though that I would rather go to university? Should I just grow up and get an apprenticeship instead?

Is individual happiness important or is it more important that you accept what society wants or expects from you?
You will find that you'll be unable to live up to society's expectations. Nor will you meet your parent's expectations. Upon discarding those expectations placed upon you, and doing what you want to do, you will have a chance of meeting expectations of your parents and society.

Parents & mentors want the best for young adults, but to be an adult is to act without guidance, and to derail yourself from the train-tracks you were placed on in your teens.

If you want to go to college, go to college, not because I think college education is great, but because it's what you want to do. Even if it's just to study what you like and be lazy. Why not be lazy and do something you enjoy at the same time?

Maybe that's the wrong decision, but learning how to make the correct decision comes from life experience itself, not from being told other people's life experience. It's something that can't be transferred by words, it has to be lived.

How are you to know college is wrong and an inferior path to a trade school, if you haven't lived it?
 
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Just do what makes you happy. In the end, you are living your life and no one elses. If I can make the decision of trade school or an university, I would take trade school any day or a two year degree. Employers will most likely choose the person with experiences more times than not.
 
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People are kinder and more healthy when they're happy.

You could almost say it's the most important thing!
 

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your happiness is important

trying not to repeat what has already been said but....

whatever you do don't try to make your self and others happy at the same time, by working a full time job and going to school full time...unless you plan on studying instead of sleeping.


in my opinion, if someone doesn't want you to do what makes you happy....maybe they shouldn't be in your life....
Certainly you would never stop someone you loved from doing what makes them happy...wouldn't you want them to be happy?
(unless what's making them happy is destructive to themselves....)

and I don't think you have to worry about what's normal in society, I think society has learned everyone is different

In modern times, we are told by our parents and teachers that we can 'be' whatever we want to be and 'do' whatever we want to do, but is that always the case in the real world, and does it just condition us into believing that low paid work and long hours is beneath us? is it beneath us? is it wrong to want better than that?
I work that type of low pay hard work job, I'm a manager so my pay is semi decent, I always feel like I work way to much for what I make....

before I started working here, I used to feel like I was "better than that"....
like this was the last place I wanted to work...but I needed a job fast and they were the first to call me...

I feel like a lot of young people it's beneath them....in a way I used to

now after working here for almost 2 yrs...
I have gained high respect for people who work these sort of jobs, it's not beneath anyone you have to start somewhere, if you feel it's beneath you, and you have someone to continue to support you while you stay in school till you can get the job you really want.
-then do it
 

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It always seems like such a downer to just 'accept' things the way they are. The only way to grow out of something and into something, hopefully what you've always wanted, is to follow that feeling. Individual happiness is always the most important, like everyone else has noted. You're the one that has to die with your decisions at the end anyway.
 
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