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Discussion Starter #1
Don't get me wrong, anybody can be an intellectual. But it seems to me entps are more focused on the factor of knowledge compared to enfps who can be more lenient and trivial in their intellectual interests. It seems to me entps enneagram 9,7 or 6 or whatever it is, have real strong interests in learning and knowledge and understanding things and discuss this openly whereas enfps are more subjective interpreting this knowledge and aren't as passionate about it and won't talk so much about what they have learned about something.

NTs are known for being quite lazy but so are NFs
What if you're not interested so much in anything? Or don't know that much about much? Does that counteract the Ti portion of ENTP making them an ENFP because they're more interested in relations?

For instance, could Ti somehow apply to understanding relationships and people rather than theoretical, intellectual pursuits? How would that work exactly?
 

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In my experience ENTPs(or at least myself) and ENFPs(a few I've known) think similarly and tend to have a lot of similar outlooks. So I don't think there's really much of a difference in intellectualizing ... however, there is somewhat a difference in attitudes. I find ENFP can be social justice warriors. Their outlooks on social issues often tend to be similar to mine.. but they tend to get more easily upset when others don't share their views, whereas I'm much more open to differences of opinions and am more accepting of a reality where people believe all different things and have different sentiments.

I think ENFP tend towards more viewing their to be objective rights and wrongs that everyone should believe and act in according to, whereas I don't believe anything is ultimately write and wrong or that there is any way to truly know what is accurate and true... so I view morality as well as any belief as ultimately subjective .. and I think that's not just philosophical view of mine, but also a natural sentiment I've always had.

I think ENTPs tend to view formal logic (Ti) as more objective and are prone to get upset when others aren't making logical sense. While ENFPs in the same way view internal emotions (Fi) as something objective that everyone experiences.. and so is the thing that gets them upset. .. so I think the intellectualizing, idea generation, logic etc. can be similar but the types tend to get upset about different things.

I think ENTPs and T types are prob prone to think of logic as objective and definitive, especially as opposed to feelings... but there can always be flaws in logic, false info/assumption conclusions are based upon.. and there are multiple paths of reasoning that can be followed that can lead to conclusions ...so I don't think Ti logic is any more appropriate to treat as objective truths than Fi feelings. But a think an entp can't help but becoming annoyed an frustrated when others don't make logical sense.
 

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I think w/ relationships ENFP can tend towards being hopeless romantics going into relationships.

Whereas as ENTPs are prob more realistic, practical going into relationships.. not falling head over heels for someone until they're actually dating, realizing there's potential things won't work out, and other potential partners etc.

Dunno tho... I think everyone different w/ that kind of stuff.
 

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I have 6 ENFP in my life and grew up with them and was raised by some.

They are more driven by feels. We are more driven by thought.
Its basic sure.... but in the ball park.

I have 0 ENTP in my life outside of this forum.
I am a pretty feel-y ENTP though so I stand by
what I said.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
In my experience ENTPs(or at least myself) and ENFPs(a few I've known) think similarly and tend to have a lot of similar outlooks. So I don't think there's really much of a difference in intellectualizing ... however, there is somewhat a difference in attitudes. I find ENFP can be social justice warriors. Their outlooks on social issues often tend to be similar to mine.. but they tend to get more easily upset when others don't share their views, whereas I'm much more open to differences of opinions and am more accepting of a reality where people believe all different things and have different sentiments.

I think ENFP tend towards more viewing their to be objective rights and wrongs that everyone should believe and act in according to, whereas I don't believe anything is ultimately write and wrong or that there is any way to truly know what is accurate and true... so I view morality as well as any belief as ultimately subjective .. and I think that's not just philosophical view of mine, but also a natural sentiment I've always had.

I think ENTPs tend to view formal logic (Ti) as more objective and are prone to get upset when others aren't making logical sense. While ENFPs in the same way view internal emotions (Fi) as something objective that everyone experiences.. and so is the thing that gets them upset. .. so I think the intellectualizing, idea generation, logic etc. can be similar but the types tend to get upset about different things.

I think ENTPs and T types are prob prone to think of logic as objective and definitive, especially as opposed to feelings... but there can always be flaws in logic, false info/assumption conclusions are based upon.. and there are multiple paths of reasoning that can be followed that can lead to conclusions ...so I don't think Ti logic is any more appropriate to treat as objective truths than Fi feelings. But a think an entp can't help but becoming annoyed an frustrated when others don't make logical sense.
How would you react if you were told by someone you trusted that you made an error in morals/ social politics? I get frustrated because I hate the aftermath which I know I will somehow have to suffer the consequences for and I hate that I can't just get by smooth sailing and natural. I do blame it on the people and their feelings but half me just thinks it shouldn't be difficult to avoid these things.

Do you (Ti) ever have those thoughts or is that more of an Fi thing?
 

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How would you react if you were told by someone you trusted that you made an error in morals/ social politics? I get frustrated because I hate the aftermath which I know I will somehow have to suffer the consequences for and I hate that I can't just get by smooth sailing and natural. I do blame it on the people and their feelings but half me just thinks it shouldn't be difficult to avoid these things.

Do you (Ti) ever have those thoughts or is that more of an Fi thing?
What kind of error? Like failed to acknowledge someone's suffering or what?

If I'm told I've made an error in something (well something that is not trivial, but something that I thought I had somewhat figured out) it consumes my thoughts because an error has implications, how is it possible that I've made an error and what would I need to flip or adjust to fix the error, how wide implications there are, and if it's not possible that I've made an error but the other person has a compelling point still, what is it about their point or delivery that is compelling even if it's objectively unfounded, and what does that tell me about the world and how should I address the issue with them or other people. I don't hate the aftermath at all.

Or do you mean you're accused of being rude or insensitive or something, and you are frustrated because you wanted others to look past that and focus on something else about your point? I can't say I get that a lot, I'm pretty careful in what I say and I tend to be so lengthy and lay down the reasons that anyone who is just looking to get offended has lost interest a long time before I get to a controversial claim.
 

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When it comes to hierarchizing issues, feelers focus more on which wound hurts the most, thinkers focus more on which wound bleeds the most. We have a different way of rationalizing our problems and priorities, so being too much a feeler or a thinker creates a niche. At both ends of the spectrum, feelers only care about what moves them the most, thinkers only care about what serves them the best, those in between can take the good of both approaches.. or the bad.

ENFPs and ENTPs can be just as intellectually invested and competent as the other. Don't draw conclusions based on what people pretend to be on the internet.
 

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ENFP dumbed down ENTP. ENFP more friendly and social than ENTP.
Not a rule but observation.
This is just funny to me (though probably true in some circumstances), because the one ENFP I know is far and away smarter than all the ENTPs I know, even though it's not something her identity is built around.
 

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ENFP dumbed down ENTP. ENFP more friendly and social than ENTP.
Not a rule but observation.
I think with both ENTPs and ENFPs you get people on both ends of the "intellectual" spectrum. I think some grow up in environments where they were encouraged to pursue academics and helped to develop good life skills like being organized and responsible... and others where given the impression that they were dumb and wouldn't amount to anything and struggle with being organized and responsible and psychological issues that make them unhappy and self-destructive .

I think perhaps with ENTPs there's more that appear in the ground..I guess because even if an entp was told he was dumb, he/she'll prob still talk it up in a now-it-all manner. And I think maybe the greater division with ENFPs has to do w/ secondary functions.

For ENFPs their secondary functions are those of ESTJs. So I think an ENFP that has that side of them well developed is going to be very organized and neat and responsible. Those people go on to become doctors and scientists and easily the smartest people you could meet. But I think a lot of ENFPs can also struggle w/ that side of them and so can struggle with succeeding in stuff.

W/ entps I think development of the secondary side is more about being less abrasive and developing better relationships. ...I'm not sure how that solves our problems with messiness and being irresponsible ...unless we end up surrounded by people who will serve as our maids and personal assistants XD
 

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For ENFPs their secondary functions are those of ESTJs.
[...]

W/ entps I think development of the secondary side is more about being less abrasive and developing better relationships. ...I'm not sure how that solves our problems with messiness and being irresponsible ...unless we end up surrounded by people who will serve as our maids and personal assistants XD
Well, our secondary functions are that of ESFJs, which is equally capable of being organized and neat and responsible, with warmth and ability not just to develop, but manage and direct relationships. How are ESFJ not complementary to ESTJ on this front?

Although... true ;D I can't wait until all these AI assistants become embodied. Robot slavery ftw~
 
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Well, our secondary functions are that of ESFJs, which is equally capable of being organized and neat and responsible, with warmth and ability not just to develop, but manage and direct relationships. How are ESFJ not complementary to ESTJ on this front?

Although... true ;D I can't wait until all these AI assistants become embodied. Robot slavery ftw~
I find ESTJ is more focused on organizing and planning tasks.. so when it comes to work type stuff or conducting scientific experiments or studying for exams and doing schools work etc. I find some ENFPs can be very organized and structured and systematic how they go about things. For ENTPs the ENFP side I feel has more of an effect on interacting with people. I think it can influence us to want to be neat and tidy, but I think it effects us less in getting us to be organized than the ESTJ side.

also, I'm not sure what you mean by "manage and direct relationships" ..care to explain?
 

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also, I'm not sure what you mean by "manage and direct relationships" ..care to explain?
Te manage and direct objects/objective things, Fe manage and direct humans and relationships.

Any Fe-dom worth their salts can manipulate/direct the emotional tone and social atmosphere to fit their purpose, and to guide/manage relationships so that people do what they want and willingly. This is the definition of Fe, really ;) so I've always been surprised to see when this board stereotype ExFJs as followers or as easily manipulated or fooled. Some Fe-dom might be, but the function itself is powerful. When used well, you won't even know you're being guided/directed.. you'd just think you're doing xyz due to your own will.

---

Heh... in the hump of the work week, I can take some mindlessly pampering ;)
 

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Te manage and direct objects/objective things, Fe manage and direct humans and relationships.

Any Fe-dom worth their salts can manipulate/direct the emotional tone and social atmosphere to fit their purpose, and to guide/manage relationships so that people do what they want and willingly. This is the definition of Fe, really ;) so I've always been surprised to see when this board stereotype ExFJs as followers or as easily manipulated or fooled. Some Fe-dom might be, but the function itself is powerful. When used well, you won't even know you're being guided/directed.. you'd just think you're doing xyz due to your own will.
To me Fe is an ability to read other people's emotions and other subtle nuanced things.. so someone w/ strong Fe would be good at picking up when people have something bothering them, when they being sincere or lying or hiding stuff, people emotions and motivations and tastes and inner feelings etc... and would use that as feedback to guide their behavior.

That skill could be used for being manipulative and controlling, but I doubt you would find that among many ESFJ because the whole skill of being able to read other people's emotions is a skill of empathy.. and so someone with strong empathy skills is likely going to be pretty empathetic towards others and so is not likely going to be too controlling and manipulative.

Also I think it's kinda silly when people talk about being controlling and manipulative .. because the best way to get other people to do favors for you and help you out is to create positive game scenarios in which you are genuinely helping them out as much as they're helping them and you're building genuine bonds and relationships. I think anyone who is sincerely trying to manipulate and control others in some sort of Machiavellian manner is psychologically unhealthy.. not to judge you, i'm sure there's some tongue in cheek w/ what you were saying ;)

Also I think Fe should be defined more generally to reading abstract feedback, which does largely apply to other people's emotions, but can apply to other things, such as skills in art, and playing a musical instrument, and sports where there's nuanced skill involved in constantly adjusting to subtle feedback.
 

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because the best way to get other people to do favors for you and help you out is to create positive game scenarios in which you are genuinely helping them out as much as they're helping them and you're building genuine bonds and relationships. I think anyone who is sincerely trying to manipulate and control others in some sort of Machiavellian manner is psychologically unhealthy
Hmm.. I wonder if we misunderstand one another. I placed no value judgment on the term "manipulate", as I see it to be a purely technical/descriptive term meaning to change or apply force, but I see where you may interpret it as Machiavellian and infer "controlling". Perhaps a better word may be "influence".

I agree with everything you say. Fe influence via reading people's emotions, by sympathizing/empathizing with them, applying patience and caring, and thus manage and direct people according to the Fe-user's purpose. This purpose may be benign (as it often is--i.e. for guidance, therapy, teaching, ministry, social justice, etc, or as simple as to make everyone laugh at a party), or not. The actual purpose of influence depends on the Fe-user him/herself. Regardless, it is part of Fe-dom skill set to influence the social atmosphere and manage and direct relationships as they see fit.

The way you describe Fe-gamification is how ExTP use it, in the tertiary, as a tool for communication and charm and fun. For Fe-dom though, Fe is who they are, meaning it is normal for them to impose their personality (with warmth, and focused on humans and relationships) onto the world--exactly the complement to Te-dom. (Individuals differ, exceptions, enneagram, self-confidence, blah blah)
 

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This is just funny to me (though probably true in some circumstances), because the one ENFP I know is far and away smarter than all the ENTPs I know, even though it's not something her identity is built around.
Smart = your perception of what smart is.
@desire machine

Like I said observation. I have not met ENFP with above average analytical skills, other than the ones learned through school.

Can EFP be high analytical intelligence in potential, quality and quantity?
 

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Smart = your perception of what smart is.
@desire machine

Like I said observation. I have not met ENFP with above average analytical skills, other than the ones learned through school.

Can EFP be high analytical intelligence in potential, quality and quantity?
I'd say yes, though it's not necessarily something that she revels in like an NT would.

It's rather biased and unfair to define intelligence around analytical skills (which you seem to be doing, correct me if I'm wrong). That's an NT's forte, and generally they'll be better at that an a non-NT.

I'm sure she has a massive IQ (99+ percentile in all the tests we take for school), but she's much more creatively and linguistically intelligent than almost everyone I know. Given that, she's still better at most academic/intelligence related things than the ENTPs I know. She also reads a lot more than they do. She's a talented writer, reads ridiculously quickly with stellar comprehension, and always has great points to make during a discussion.

I'm sure she's very smart in general, but she's the only ENFP I know so I suppose I shouldn't make broad statements about the type as a whole.
 
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