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@Spleen

But that doesn't make them necessary impossible.
In my head being extremely cerebral, and extremely emotional at the same time is illogical. Because they are literally the polar opposite. How is it possible, that is why I am asking.

How can you be the sun and the moon a the same time. How can you be cold, and warm at the same time? How can you be wet and dry at the same time? How can you be defensive and aggressive at the same time? How can you be slow and fast at the same time? How can you be dominated by A, but also dominated by B? How can you be dominated by being friendly, but also dominated by being hostile. You can't by logic not be dominant at 2 opposites at the same time. Then typing makes no sense.

If you pick road A 51 times, and road B 49 times. Then you are by statistics dominated by A. Because that is the road/tendency/behavior you naturally take more often.

Well, I already said it was for me highly correlated with my tertiary Fi. Have you already forgotten it?
You say a lot of stuff. I am just asking why you say it, in an humble attempt to understand it/you.

Besides, it's a bit annoying for me to imply I'm unwilling to explain the nature of my nature when I spent my time with you doing this. :/
We just have different definitions of "explaining" then. To me you are just making statements.
 

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What else do you expect, typology is pseudo science XD
There's no proof of its 100% accuracy.
There's rarely 100% proof or accuracy even in most "sciences" methods other than the radiocarbon method.

A person uses all 8 functions, 4 of which you use consciously according to Jung.
Do you claim Ne is a function that is conscious, and that I can control by will?

Now, an introvert given that their dominant function is introverted would find an extroverted function draining
Again where do you have your information from or do you make it up yourself. First of all. Every action you take requires energy. So using NeTi loop will exceed energy from my side. But it is just something that doesn't require much energy nearly any at all... "compared" to all other cognitive functions that actually requires an effort from my side. Like taking other peoples emotions into account when making decisions "Fe". So you are claiming I spend more energy using Ti than Fe? But Fe is double as challenging for me to practice.

Lmao, you've clearly misunderstood the two. There's no such thing as Fi logic. If anything can be explained through proper logic it's not Fi.
Fi-logic is what makes sense to them. Maybe not on a Universal scale or with objective measurements but them. It is cognitive decision making. There's a logic to everything even though it might not make sense to the logic you operate with.
 

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Lmao, the feelings in MBTI do not mean emotions. Thinkers can have deep emotions as well.

It's time, you find better sources for your information.
That is what I have been writing in all other messages. No idea why you get it from this. What is wrong in the statement I make? One is basing their decision making on logic/rationale/empirical data and then it feels right to them. The other is feeling strongly about something, and then they might find rational/logic/empirical data that backs up their viewpoint, and then it makes sense to them.

I find it quite comical I write Feelers are not based on feeling, and then you write the exact same thing to me in this message. Then you post something I posted to you, like I am not aware of it, while you get 2 thumps up for it LOL. This forum, sometimes.
 

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I have never said I don't "believe socionics" but if you can quote it, be free to do so. I simply don't know anything more about it than it is the overthought russian version of MBTI, where they say ENTPs have long noses.
It's getting late so you can look it up.

Basically you have 4 dimensions for functions. Your 4D function is the strongest. Ne for you and Fe for me. 3D is your second function, 2D is your third and 1D is your last.

4D Fe is different from 2D fe and 3D is different from 1D Si. Each function behaves differently in different positions of your function stacks. So I can never be as good as an INTP in Ti but I want to though. I want to have the best 1D Ti ever. Does that make sense?

Socionics also acknowledges that we use our shadow functions. I have 4D Se which means I can use Se as any Se dom, but I devalue it - see it as something unnecessary. But I can use it if I need to. It just comes out - like if I'm angry I can be as aggressive as an Se user - only difference being I can't really control it fully and when I'm normal, I find that level of Se meaningless. Same relationship ENTPs have with Te.

So for ESFJs

Valued - devalued

4D - Fe - Se
3D - Si - Fi
2D - Ne - Te
1D - Ti - Ni
 

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Have you considered ENFP / INFJ?
Never anything extroverted but infj is the only other type I've dabbled with lol but that was back when I was just getting started with understanding the types, and didn't realize that infjs and infps are not 100% different

Ash has some explosive Fi, and is definitely a Ne-user. So the question is whether she leads with Ne or with Fi. Does she have inferior Te or inferior Si?
Hehe admittedly I easily sound like a lot of enfps online. Not 100% sure why, but I guess it depends where I'm at, or what I'm responding to. I met my first enfp friend in real life this year, and he is incredibly different from me except when it comes to texting...then we sound similar.

But some differences in that regard include how he has a really hard time actually holding back on something. I've noticed that he'll blurt anything out just to get it out there. Only afterwards is when his fi comes in to evaulate it. The only time I'm that impulsive is when it's really late at night and I'm all giggly goofy. Even if my ne comes up with something, there are certain things my fi won't let me say without feeling bad about it.

Another difference is how his lead with ne allows him to come up with the craziest things in the snap snap snap of a finger, while by comparison I take much longer to respond with something ne-ish...like I remember I was texting a friend irl as we were sitting next to each other, but she was really dumbfounded as to why it was taking me years to reply lol

I've also noticed that how I sound online in certain respects may not be 100% natural. I think I can sense a hint of wannabe. It's kind of hard to discern though because I wonder if this has something to do with constantly desiring to be like my esfp dad, and him attempting to help my achieve this throughout growing up...but overall I'm different irl. :/ Unless I put in a lot of energy to be pesudo-extroverted
 
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That is what I have been writing in all other messages. No idea why you get it from this. What is wrong in the statement I make? One is basing their decision making on logic/rationale/empirical data and then it feels right to them. The other is feeling strongly about something, and then they might find rational/logic/empirical data that backs up their viewpoint, and then it makes sense to them.

I find it quite comical I write Feelers are not based on feeling, and then you write the exact same thing to me in this message. Then you post something I posted to you, like I am not aware of it, while you get 2 thumps up for it LOL. This forum, sometimes.
I completely agree with you. Fe/Fi don't mean values, morals or even sympathy/empathy. It's a completely different way of relating to the world. Fe and Fi have their own logic to them. Okay, I can't call it logic. But it's not like I do this because I feel this or I feel that. I can often explain my actions in perfectly logical ways. Fe is like Te - based on objective reality where if Te is focused on productivity, Fe is based on harmony. Both have a goal they're working forward to accomplish. Just like that, Fi has an internal structure like Ti. The difference is that Fi world is full of relations of the thing to the user and Ti world is based on the users personal logic.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

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There's rarely 100% proof or accuracy even in most "sciences" methods other than the radiocarbon method.
No point in asking how you measure it then. Don't blame the theory, if you are unaware of your strengths.

Do you claim Ne is a function that is conscious, and that I can control by will?
Theoretically, ENXPs doms embody Ne. Doesn't mean they can control its usage, since they use it all the time by default.

Again where do you have your information from or do you make it up yourself. First of all. Every action you take requires energy. So using NeTi loop will exceed energy from my side. But it is just something that doesn't require much energy nearly any at all... "compared" to all other cognitive functions that actually requires an effort from my side. Like taking other peoples emotions into account when making decisions "Fe". So you are claiming I spend more energy using Ti than Fe? But Fe is double as challenging for me to practice.
Read the basic descriptions of Extroversion and Introversion given by Jung, that's where my information is coming from.

I meant Ne doms spend more energy using Ti compared to Ne. Even though Fe would be difficult to access than Ti, there's still a possibility for them to turn off their Ti and use Fe depending on the situation since the 2nd and 3rd functions are easier to control rather than the 1st and 4th functions.

Fi-logic is what makes sense to them. Maybe not on a Universal scale or with objective measurements but them. It is cognitive decision making. There's a logic to everything even though it might not make sense to the logic you operate with.
Basically, what defines Fi is the inability to explain its thought process, that's how subjective values are formed. Fi just provides an image that involves no thought process. Hence, you can't really call Fi as logical.
 

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I completely agree with you. Fe/Fi don't mean values, morals or even sympathy/empathy. It's a completely different way of relating to the world. Fe and Fi have their own logic to them. Okay, I can't call it logic. But it's not like I do this because I feel this or I feel that. I can often explain my actions in perfectly logical ways. Fe is like Te - based on objective reality where if Te is focused on productivity, Fe is based on harmony. Both have a goal they're working forward to accomplish. Just like that, Fi has an internal structure like Ti. The difference is that Fi world is full of relations of the thing to the user and Ti world is based on the users personal logic.

Correct me if I'm wrong.



I think calling "Fe" for social logic fits a lot. You are really good at taking peoples emotions into account and to include people, and create social harmony. That is "intelligent" because it makes people want to help you back, in that way you are often quite protected/well liked/ you have social capital so to speak. Because when you help a lot of people they want to help you back, and be around you. That is very intelligent and there's a lot of logic to that.
 

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@Blue Ribbon



How do you prove or measure that?



There's never been anyone never becoming aware of their strength and weakness' as they became older?



I don't consider myself bad at Si. I just don't like doing Si things, compared to NeTi things. It is boring to me. But if you gave me 1 month to study an ISTJ, I promise you I could do what he does better than him, if I wanted to. But why would I, if I don't enjoy it? It is not that I suck at it, I just don't find it stimulating. People can think/use all functions. We are all just human beings.

But somehow it is natural for me to use Ti and make up what makes sense to me based on my own logic. Instead of being goal oriented like a Te wanting statistic, empirical data and what not.



I disagree. Becoming older does not necessarily make you better. Just like an 60 man is not necessarily better at football. Again how do you measure being good at Ne and Ti? What is the criteria. Another person is literally better than being himself than me? lol

Because I don't want to do the stuff you do. So why the fuck would I learn from you?

I learn it because I care about differences. And I care about myself and my potential behavior. The more I learn about people and what is going on in their and my head. The more power I ultimately feel I have. Because I know peoples motives, and desires. Therefore I can understand/get what I want from myself and them. Also I like categorizing things, because then I feel I have control of it. Knowledge makes me feel safe. That I know wtf is going on and why. There's no end goal with that. I just want to know for fun.

Being better. Means improving what already is. Being better does not mean being someone you are not.

Sounds quite stupid to be something you are not. And kind of stupid wanting to have as long a dick as an INTP when you are born with a vagina.

How did you arrive at these funny conclusions, megalomania? :laughing:
You seem to fail to understand that function stacking works by dichotomies. ESFJs and INTPs have the same fundamental elements making up their cognitive process. The difference is in the order of preference. Just because an INTP wishes to improve their use of Fe or an ESFJ wishes to improve Ti doesn't mean they're somehow being ingenuine or counter to themselves. Fe is just as much a part of an INTP as Ti is, and vice-versa for ESFJs. Inadequately making use of the inferior causes psychological imbalance and unhealth because the dominant is fundamentally incapable of doing the job of the inferior. You need the inferior, and the more competent you are at using it the better all around you will be as the blind spots of the dominant are better covered.
 

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Basically, what defines Fi is the inability to explain its thought process, that's how subjective values are formed. Fi just provides an image that involves no thought process. Hence, you can't really call Fi as logical.
You also can't explain some aspect of Quantum physics. Doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. There's a lot of things we don't understand or can make sense of. But there's often a reason to it anyway.
 

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That is what I have been writing in all other messages. No idea why you get it from this. What is wrong in the statement I make? One is basing their decision making on logic/rationale/empirical data and then it feels right to them. The other is feeling strongly about something, and then they might find rational/logic/empirical data that backs up their viewpoint, and then it makes sense to them.
Because, Enneagram does include emotions. 4 is mostly related to authenticity and I see no reason why INTJs can't be as such. Well, you can be extremely happy and logical at the same time; you could be crying due to frustration and still be able to think at the same time, wonder what's difficult to understand in that.
 

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Because, Enneagram does include emotions. 4 is mostly related to authenticity and I see no reason why INTJs can't be as such. Well, you can be extremely happy and logical at the same time; you could be crying due to frustration and still be able to think at the same time, wonder what's difficult to understand in that.
Because, Enneagram does include emotions
Never said it didn't. So why do you say it like I have?

4 is mostly related to authenticity and I see no reason why INTJs can't be as such.
Every type is authentic in it's own. No one is being fake to their tendencies.

Well, you can be extremely happy and logical at the same time; you could be crying due to frustration and still be able to think at the same time
What is your point, and what does it have to do about what I wrote.
 

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You also can't explain some aspect of Quantum physics.
Like what?

There's a lot of things we don't understand or can make sense of. But there's often a reason to it anyway.
According to the dictionary definition, anything that cannot be proved using external facts cannot be called as logic. Introverted thinking isn't really objective but it can explain the subjective ideas with the help of analogies. On the other hand, Fi completely fails to do so, I agree that it makes sense to the subject since why it's called a rational function. But the subject cannot explain the reasons for their values in a logical way, because it's something they've felt subjectively and not really thought about.
 

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Like what?
Like particles being in superstate where they stand still and move at the same time. Does that make sense to you?

You are just nitpicking the word logic. Instead of actually seeing what I write. I could also write "idiot-logic". Just because someone does something stupid or can't make sense of it. Doesn't mean there's no sense to it at all or could logically be broken down if we knew/cared enough to find out. Logic doesn't have to be intelligent or well thought out. It could be in lower stages/lack perspective. But still make sense.
 

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You also can't explain some aspect of Quantum physics. Doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. There's a lot of things we don't understand or can make sense of. But there's often a reason to it anyway.
Good point. This is true, but look at it this way, where does the judgment stem from?

For instance, let's say that under very specific circumstances, it would make rational sense to kill your 7 year old (hypothetical) daughter, a girl that you love so very much. Killing her would save lives of 200000 other people.

Decisions, decisions.

Saving her wouldn't make sense, in the grander scheme of things. She is nothing.
But to you, she is someone you hold dear.

I don't mean to paint it so black and white, but I'd like to hear your thoughts. :)
 

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Like what?
Like particles being in superstate where they stand still and move at the same time. Does that make sense to you?

You are just nitpicking the word logic. Instead of actually seeing what I write. I could also write "idiot-logic". Just because someone does something stupid or can't make sense of it. Doesn't mean there's no sense to it at all or could logically be broken down if we knew/cared enough to find out. Logic doesn't have to be intelligent or well thought out. It could be in lower stages/lack perspective. But still make sense.





This could be Fi or any other behavior if you want me to nitpick too.
 

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Anyway, I'm going back on topic. I no longer doubt that Roman is ENTP. How the hell could I?
 

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Never said it didn't. So why do you say it like I have?
Because you said these:
Then you will find out one is highly cerebral, and distanced from being dictacted by emotions.
Fi has nothing to do with feelings
INTJs aren't dictated by their values, doesn't mean there are no emotions. Ironic when you say both the statements.

Just because the meaning of feeling is different in MBTI, you cannot say that, especially when I did not even relate Fi with emotions in the first place.

Every type is authentic in it's own. No one is being fake to their tendencies.
True, but it's the most prominent aspect in 4s compared to the ones attributed by the other enneagrams. That's the basic theory of Enneagram.

What is your point, and what does it have to do about what I wrote.
The point is that INTJs can be type 4.
 

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No point in asking how you measure it then. Don't blame the theory, if you are unaware of your strengths.


Theoretically, ENXPs doms embody Ne. Doesn't mean they can control its usage, since they use it all the time by default.



Read the basic descriptions of Extroversion and Introversion given by Jung, that's where my information is coming from.

I meant Ne doms spend more energy using Ti compared to Ne. Even though Fe would be difficult to access than Ti, there's still a possibility for them to turn off their Ti and use Fe depending on the situation since the 2nd and 3rd functions are easier to control rather than the 1st and 4th functions.



Basically, what defines Fi is the inability to explain its thought process, that's how subjective values are formed. Fi just provides an image that involves no thought process. Hence, you can't really call Fi as logical.
Fi can't explain Ti but Fi is the logic of relationships. Fi is constantly relating the world around it to itself. It's a very personal logic like Ti. Then it makes decisions based on these relations. It's exactly like Ti but the goals are different. The goal of Fi is being truthful to oneself whereas to Ti it is the logical truth. Both Fi and Ti are truth seekers. The difference is that Fi is more about how to be truthful - so yes, it cannot explain itself like Ti can. Ti users are often truth seeking but they don't use relational logic and the goal is different. Ti cannot explain itself like Fi can.

Again neither Fi nor Fe are about values. That's like saying Ti and Te is about logic. No, values are a result of Fi like how logic is the result of Ti. Under the surface, both work in similar ways. Of course they're not the same. Hope it makes sense.
 

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Like particles being in superstate where they stand still and move at the same time. Does that make sense to you?

You are just nitpicking the word logic. Instead of actually seeing what I write. I could also write "idiot-logic". Just because someone does something stupid or can't make sense of it. Doesn't mean there's no sense to it at all or could logically be broken down if we knew/cared enough to find out. Logic doesn't have to be intelligent or well thought out. It could be in lower stages/lack perspective. But still make sense.





This could be Fi or any other behavior if you want me to nitpick too.
All I'm saying is that Fi doesn't involve thinking at all, I've already said that it's seeking an image it has felt subjectively.
 
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