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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The more I read about type 5, the more I "know" that I cannot be anything other than a 5, despite what others on this forum have told me.

For some reason, they find me unable to be a 5 because
1. I'm not miserable and depressed. (actually I'm quite happy and positive a lot of the time)
2. I don't enjoy learning useless information (Te basically)
3. My thoughts and writing are too interesting and exciting
4. I don't think linearly


Okay. So. Despite these ridiculous claims^, is there any way to know for certain that you are a 5? As opposed to a 6? or 7?

I realize 6 and 7 are not 5, so probably shouldn't even look like 5, right?

But for some reason everyone wants to box me into those categories :)


I struggle hardcore to identify with 7's biggest fear: to be bored (dafuq?). And 6s biggest fear: to be without help.

But I so, so easily connect with 5's biggest fear: to let other people in.

That is story of my life. The recluse. The hermit. The outcast who outcasted himself. Afraid of emotional connection with others. Afraid of letting others get too attached to them. Knowing that love can only be repaid with love. And feeling inadequate to participate in that.
[hr][/hr]
I find this resource very good for describing each of the 9 types, as well as how they look with each subtype (instinctual variant):
Enneagram Central - Subtype Six Intimate

I'm a pretty obvious sp 5 going off those descriptions.

But I want your opinions, too. That's why I made this thread :)
[hr][/hr]
I considered the idea that I could be perhaps 5 when I disintegrate, but then that would mean that I'm a dominant 8.

Which I do not identify with at all. Actually, I find 8ishness mostly disgusting. And opposite of myself.

I don't identify with this inhuman "strength" they so childishly masquerade around with.


I identify most strongly with a 5 who integrates into 7(or 9?) and disintegrates into 3. I know that this isn't canon--that 5 is supposed to disintegrate into 7. But

[hr][/hr]
Actually. . . looking at the enneagram of 6--integrating into 9--I could actually see that quite a bit in myself. I think that nails me actually :frustrating:. And it explains why I feel as though I disintegrate into 3.

Goddamn :)

Maybe I'm 6w5? That explains why I so incredibly strongly relate to 5? I don't relate at all to turning into a 7 when stressed. And if I'm to follow the Enneagram canon, I cannot say that I am a 5--since 5 turns into 7 when stressed. and I just don't at all.
 
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There is a way to know for certain that you are a 5--introspection, and a careful examination of yourself, your inner processes, and your motivations. Honest inquiry of which psychological principles you tend to operate upon. Exploring your perceptional baseline for evidence of both wings. Honoring the "knowing" you get when you've hit on something true for you.

I looked over your inquiries on the 6 thread, and I skimmed through your posts on your type me thread. I say this to everyone I type--it's not a great idea to type someone over a few words online. You can say anything you want to, self-reporting is only words...what enneagram is about is your underlying psychological pattern. You yourself are in a better position to evaluate that than any of us.

That being said, based solely on your online words thus far, I see no reason why you can't be a 5. I disagree with the user who was saying there was no possible way. I can easily see a 5 writing with your whimsy and humor; 5s have a 7-connection after all. You seem to relate to head-center issues yet actually, I'm not quite getting 6w7 from anything you've so far related. You haven't expressed any issues remotely pertaining to it, so if anyone is boxing you into it, it's unsound by my observations.

I could also see you as a 3, even though you insist not. I think 1 is also worth exploring.

Failing either of those, I really do think you should at least explore type 7 in more depth. It's really not about being a hyper-extraverted crass idiot drug-addict monkey always trying to escape from "boredom" and "pain", and it was this conceptualization precisely that alienated me from it. I failed to realize the influence the type had on me and my own life for many years, and it prevented personal growth.

I want to say, don't worry about integration/disintegration. Many theorists don't even recognize that principle--plenty will say they are only connections and you can draw influences from either. So, you could only be a 5 with a very strong 7 connection, rather than a disintegrating 5. (I find disintegration is true in my own case, but refers to deep psychological troughs I get myself into under very bad long-term, real-world conditions; it's not a matter of, "Oh my term paper is late, I think I'm disintegrating". It's the sort of thing you don't realize is happening because it feels so natural.)

One last slightly condescending remark, it seems to me like you haven't gotten deeply into the theory and mechanisms of each type--it's definitely worth investing in. There's a lot out there that most people don't realize and you can't really come to conclusions about it till you've reviewed all the evidence yourself (I am speaking from experience here).

..................

I guess I can pose a couple of questions--

- First, how do you relate/not relate to the types I suggested? 1, 3, 5, and 7. Put 9 in there as well. Or anything else you'd like to share. You've said several times you don't think type X, because of reason Y...but I'd like a concise multi-pronged analysis (if you care to take the trouble, of course)

- Second, in what ways do you feel you integrate and disintegrate to 9 and 3?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
yet actually, I'm not quite getting 6w7 from anything you've so far related.
Why is that?

You haven't expressed any issues remotely pertaining to it, so if anyone is boxing you into it, it's unsound by my observations.
What are some issues that 6w7's might run into?

I could also see you as a 3, even though you insist not.
3s strike me as those so-easy-to-hate people who need to prove to everyone else that they're better than them. 3's are keeping up with the Jones'. I couldn't care less about the Jones' most of the time.

This could not be less me. I much more quickly relate to 9 than to 3. I want to shrink my importance around others in order to get them to like me. It makes me feel good.

I've actually spoken about that a lot in the past, actually. I'm not sure if you've seen those posts. I'll try to find them if you haven't. (see here).

However, I also feel conflicted here. I don't always enjoy lying about how successful I am. Sometimes I just am honest and tell people I'm successful. But I almost always feel bad about that afterward. If not always. Painting a picture of "I'm better than you" is something that really, really turns me off. When I do it, when others do it, whatever.

I think it's moreso a desire to tell the truth--that I am successful or that I actually am good at something that they suck at. I don't enjoy lying. I do lie. But sometimes I just like telling the truth. And sometimes that involves saying that I'm better than someone else at something. Even though I don't like doing that. (it's not my fault that I don't suck at everything)

I think 1 is also worth exploring.
1 also strikes me as insufferable. Moral crusaders. Yuck.

Failing either of those, I really do think you should at least explore type 7 in more depth. It's really not about being a hyper-extraverted crass idiot drug-addict monkey always trying to escape from "boredom" and "pain",
Are you sure? Every authority on the subject would disagree with you . . . ?

One last slightly condescending remark, it seems to me like you haven't gotten deeply into the theory and mechanisms of each type--it's definitely worth investing in.
I'm really trying to. There seems to be so little free information available about Enneagram. I've read almost all of it--if not all of it. It seems like one has to invest money into buying a book or something in order to get an "in-depth" understanding.


I guess I can pose a couple of questions--

- First, how do you relate/not relate to the types I suggested? 1, 3, 5, and 7. Put 9 in there as well. Or anything else you'd like to share. You've said several times you don't think type X, because of reason Y...but I'd like a concise multi-pronged analysis (if you care to take the trouble, of course)
I think this will be helpful. You can assess my knowledge/lack thereof and see where I'm getting tripped up.

1- disgusting moral crusaders. hate these people a lot of the time. Strikes me as very religious. Perhaps very Fe. Or very SJ.
"Ones do not want to be loved for their charm or beauty. They want to be appreciated and loved for the good work they do and their moral fiber."

No way. I'd like to be loved for being cute and sweet. Or honest or smart. Not for being moral (god no) or for being a hard worker (also god no--when do I ever work hard, actually? Almost never. I procrastinate and do sloppy work almost always. The work is often exceptionally good. But it is always procrastinated/last-ditch-effort work).

3- I mentioned earlier. I've met people like this. MAYBE they were unhealthy 3s and this could be altering my opinion of 3 as a whole. But I frankly doubt it. I think 3 really lives that very self-important lifestyle. I like to flirt with that lifestyle a bit. But I'm not full-on 3. I would say that I like to incorporate aspects of that lifestyle because I'm drawn to it. But I mostly dislike those kinds of people.

5- Kind of mentioned this earlier? I said that I identify with practically everything. I don't identify with wanting to study all the in-depth intricacies of underwater basket weaving. But I am definitely curious from an academic perspective when the field interests me. And almost always the only fields that interest me are the ones that can be readily-applied to my life in some way. (Te)

7- Kind of also mentioned this earlier? I think I could be getting 9 and 7 confused a lot. I don't really know what the difference is. They seem so similar to me. (but perhaps 7 is higher energy and more "let's be stupid and irresponsible woo!!!1")*

9- Okay. I kind of do identify with 9 to some extent. But the thing is that I think I mostly identify with 9 because I adopt 9 traits to get people to like me. But I'm not a 9 a majority of the time (in my opinion). 9 strikes me as a very afraid type. Very afraid to tell people how they feel about something. And consequently become very passive-aggressive out of fear of telling people how they really feel.

This really isn't me, to be honest. I don't always come right out and say how I feel about something, but I definitely will if someone asks me explicitly for my opinion. And I feel as though the atmosphere is mostly non-judgmental.

I can see how I'm very spineless in social interaction. I don't want to tell someone that I don't like their idea or their thought. So I'll just smile and nod as if everything is okay. But I will inside be thinking "god that is so stupid. . . " or whatever. Is this 3? I feel like 9 would be so opinionless that they wouldn't even realize something was stupid and they'd just go along with it anyway.

- Second, in what ways do you feel you integrate and disintegrate to 9 and 3?
In social situations I often try to go along with others to get them to like me. I almost would say this is more 3 than 9 (for reasons mentioned above ^) because it has to do with being two-faced (I think one thing but say something completely different to produce the desired effect in my audience). But it's not totally forced agreement. Sometimes I actually wish to disagree but I'm scared of the societal effects of disagreeing with someone. Perhaps sometimes confronting a situation and saying "no, I'm not okay with that" can make you look like an asshole or like some sort of moral crusader (lol 1s) and I really loathe that and so I feel so conflicted--should I be myself and risk looking like an asshole or moral crusader, or should I give in and just go along with it?

I would say that I often just let myself look like an asshole. Despite hating to come off as morally superior. Maybe because of 3 motives. (but wouldn't a 3 just love to look superior any chance it could get? That couldn't be less me)

I hate that competitiveness of 3s. I am not at all a competitive person. I do use others as a gauge for where I should be (I try to aim above them when possible), but this goes on in secret. I don't at all flaunt it ever. I hate flaunting it and receiving attention for my work or anything like this. I've written about this a lot already . . .[hr][/hr]
* I would never call myself high-energy, but I do tend to be pretty positive and optimistic. (though definitely a realist).

But if I had to choose between pessimist and optimist, I'd pick optimist every time.

My mother can be quite negative (perhaps she is a type 6?) and that can often annoy me and grind my gears. And I'll kill her with positivity to make her shut up. She likes to talk bad about other people. And I love to counter her negativity with my own positive opinions about those people. I kind of hate negativity. Because who really needs it a majority of the time? It's almost always useless. And counter-productive.


I see how I can be an unhealthy 3 when my parents are telling me about how poorly my brother and sister are doing in school. And I will always pretend to be shocked (though it's never surprising) and counter their tellings of my siblings' poor work with recent updates of how I've been doing (always way better than they).

On one hand, it's absolutely not my fault that I do better than they do. I can't control how poorly they do.

But on the other hand, I also like doing better than they. It makes me feel good.[hr][/hr]
One thing that just occurred to me:

Could it be that the reason I don't like 3s is because I AM a 3 and other 3s are my competition? They make things a lot harder for me--and so naturally I wouldn't like them?

Just a thought. *shrugs*

But if someone came along to compete with me, I'd just hand them the gold medal because that competitive garbage is so beneath me. That seems pretty anti-3 to me if 3s are supposed to be like top-level competers (the example frequently given is olympic athletes).
 
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Thanks for those links @emberfly. I have a heavy 4 wing/fix whatever you want to call it and for a long time I thought I was a four. Especially when in the depths of my unhealthiness I wax lyrical about the uniquely depressing and melancholy life I have been saddled with. It's awful. But I realised I was a type 5 when I was honest with myself about what really causes me to drop out of contact and off the radar. Overwhelment, is the key thing for me. I retreat because I am overwhelmed, I procrastinate because I am overwhelmed by what I don't know, I feel overwhelmed by the looming overwhelment. I make impulsive and angry decisions when I am overwhelmed.

While I am aesthetically developed and have many, many four traits. It doesn't define me like the overwhelment does though. That is what causes me to do the things I do. I am drier in my humour, less whimsical dramatic and a lot more detached from life than a true four.

I also don't think being a mopey bastard is actually a five thing. I'm not really a mopey bastard until I've been drinking the four koolaid. I'm just skeptical and aloof. I don't agree with any of those stereotypical things listed as five things. If anything fives are likely to be pragmatists (since sp is a common variant), hoarding and miserly behaviour is about austerity consciousness for us.

We don't hoard like the crazies with homes full of newspapers because that's manic attachment. Austerity consciousness means we hoard things which ensure survival, so yes practical knowledge is sought not useless trivia, only items of utility or intrinsic value are clutched to our breast. Bank accounts being a great example, but even when I'm collecting objects D'Art, I'm very selective about what will collect dust, ensuring it is something with enduring appeal and appropriate resale value. Looking for the right names, the right era and the right condition. Fives are not collectors and hoarders of tat, the way a nostalgic person is.
 

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Well Emberfly, having read this over, I think part of your confusion here is that you've conceptualized the enneagram stereotypically. I'm going to go through and address some of your points.

Why is that?
Well that's a bit like proving a negative...suffice to say, you've done nothing to blip my Sixdar.


What are some issues that 6w7's might run into?
In self-reporting, I'd look for allusions to self-doubt, trust/mistrust, any issues with authority, a certain vigilance (and a lot of 6s hate that word, but from my perspective that's actually what it feels like), questions about the ultimate nature of reality, a sense that the individual in question is very aware of others and potentially negative ramifications with them, a tendency toward hashing and rehashing these issues, or an over-adherence to something, a sense of being vulnerable to something bad happening, etc. Even if the typee doesn't say any of these things, there's always the question...Does it seem possible that it's coming from that mindset?

3s strike me as those so-easy-to-hate people who need to prove to everyone else that they're better than them. 3's are keeping up with the Jones'. I couldn't care less about the Jones' most of the time.

This could not be less me. I much more quickly relate to 9 than to 3. I want to shrink my importance around others in order to get them to like me. It makes me feel good.

I've actually spoken about that a lot in the past, actually. I'm not sure if you've seen those posts. I'll try to find them if you haven't. (see here).

However, I also feel conflicted here. I don't always enjoy lying about how successful I am. Sometimes I just am honest and tell people I'm successful. But I almost always feel bad about that afterward. If not always. Painting a picture of "I'm better than you" is something that really, really turns me off. When I do it, when others do it, whatever.

I think it's moreso a desire to tell the truth--that I am successful or that I actually am good at something that they suck at. I don't enjoy lying. I do lie. But sometimes I just like telling the truth. And sometimes that involves saying that I'm better than someone else at something. Even though I don't like doing that. (it's not my fault that I don't suck at everything)
Everything you've said here actually makes me think of the SP3 archetype. I can put up a good description if you are unfamiliar, but in essence, this style of three tends to feel accomplishments shouldn't be discussed, that it's distasteful to do so. They emphasize hard work and being good over flaunting accomplishments. According to the theory anyway...

1 also strikes me as insufferable. Moral crusaders. Yuck.
How many people do you know like that, though? Ones are, more accurately, people with a strong sense of right and wrong, who want to be on the side of "right". Sometimes, this rightness is moral, but often it is logical. Do you have a strong need for things to be logically right?

Most importantly, a 1 is defined by The Inner Critic. Sometimes it's called the Judging Mind--a constant voice that evaluates the world around the 1, as well as the 1s thoughts and actions themselves.

From your posts, I get a sense of someone who has strong opinions on the the rectitude of various types of people; that may speak to an evaluating mind. Just a thought.

Are you sure? Every authority on the subject would disagree with you . . . ?
No actual authority on the subject would disagree with me. Some stupid online sources based entirely on Riso and Hudson might, but I've learned to keep those in their proper place. I know 7s don't have to be like this because it's a very heavy component in my own life and I know how their perspective works; I've also witnessed 7s not realizing they're 7s due to this stereotype, and 7s reneging on their status as a 7 when they read Riso and Hudson.

I'm really trying to. There seems to be so little free information available about Enneagram. I've read almost all of it--if not all of it. It seems like one has to invest money into buying a book or something in order to get an "in-depth" understanding.
You pretty much do, and that is regrettable. I find Ocean Moonshine and Naranjo's Character and Analysis chapters are probably the best investments you can make online. How did you relate to those?

1- disgusting moral crusaders. hate these people a lot of the time. Strikes me as very religious. Perhaps very Fe. Or very SJ.
"Ones do not want to be loved for their charm or beauty. They want to be appreciated and loved for the good work they do and their moral fiber."

No way. I'd like to be loved for being cute and sweet. Or honest or smart. Not for being moral (god no) or for being a hard worker (also god no--when do I ever work hard, actually? Almost never. I procrastinate and do sloppy work almost always. The work is often exceptionally good. But it is always procrastinated/last-ditch-effort work).
Well I think by moral fiber, they mean their integrity. But tell me, why do you tend to do good work at the last possible minute?

3- I mentioned earlier. I've met people like this. MAYBE they were unhealthy 3s and this could be altering my opinion of 3 as a whole. But I frankly doubt it. I think 3 really lives that very self-important lifestyle. I like to flirt with that lifestyle a bit. But I'm not full-on 3. I would say that I like to incorporate aspects of that lifestyle because I'm drawn to it. But I mostly dislike those kinds of people.
Well I've met yucky 3s, too, but you want to keep in mind, the core of the 3 is defined by the achievement of goals; these goals will be measured by outward standards. They can typically stretch and adapt to reach those goals, though what that specifically means will be dependent upon the individual. They tend to feel the need to remain "on top of things" since everything's got to be moving toward the goal all at once and the 3 is the sole person who can do that.

9- Okay. I kind of do identify with 9 to some extent. But the thing is that I think I mostly identify with 9 because I adopt 9 traits to get people to like me. But I'm not a 9 a majority of the time (in my opinion). 9 strikes me as a very afraid type. Very afraid to tell people how they feel about something. And consequently become very passive-aggressive out of fear of telling people how they really feel.
The bolded sounds more like phobic 6 to me, if I had to type it. Nines are very numbed out and tend toward inertia and feelings of not wanting to exert themselves because it's too much trouble...rather than fearing anything overtly.

I'd say one difference between 7 and 9 is that 7s tend to see the value in trying new things even at the expense of life stability, and 9s tend to want an inner sense of stability and feeling settled. Sevens value freedom, Nines value comfort.

This really isn't me, to be honest. I don't always come right out and say how I feel about something, but I definitely will if someone asks me explicitly for my opinion. And I feel as though the atmosphere is mostly non-judgmental.

I can see how I'm very spineless in social interaction. I don't want to tell someone that I don't like their idea or their thought. So I'll just smile and nod as if everything is okay. But I will inside be thinking "god that is so stupid. . . " or whatever. Is this 3? I feel like 9 would be so opinionless that they wouldn't even realize something was stupid and they'd just go along with it anyway.
Now to be really honest...this sounds a lot like Ti/Fe. Got nothing to do with enneagram. But the Ti tends to keep insights within unless specifically asked, and the Fe tends toward nodding and smiling even if the Fe-user disagrees. I speak from experience on this one.

In social situations I often try to go along with others to get them to like me. I almost would say this is more 3 than 9 (for reasons mentioned above ^) because it has to do with being two-faced (I think one thing but say something completely different to produce the desired effect in my audience). But it's not totally forced agreement. Sometimes I actually wish to disagree but I'm scared of the societal effects of disagreeing with someone. Perhaps sometimes confronting a situation and saying "no, I'm not okay with that" can make you look like an asshole or like some sort of moral crusader (lol 1s) and I really loathe that and so I feel so conflicted--should I be myself and risk looking like an asshole or moral crusader, or should I give in and just go along with it?

I would say that I often just let myself look like an asshole. Despite hating to come off as morally superior. Maybe because of 3 motives. (but wouldn't a 3 just love to look superior any chance it could get? That couldn't be less me)
Again, I really see Ti > Fe here. I agree completely, and I'm no 3 or 9.

As to the bolded line. You'll want to determine if this is an interpersonal calculation based on not wanting to deal with the tension and disharmony that results from social disagreement, or if you're more worried about long-term ramifications that come from it and any potential for being alienated or having others set against you.

But if I had to choose between pessimist and optimist, I'd pick optimist every time.
In what ways are you optimistic? About what? Do you value optimism, and why (not)?

My mother can be quite negative (perhaps she is a type 6?) and that can often annoy me and grind my gears. And I'll kill her with positivity to make her shut up. She likes to talk bad about other people. And I love to counter her negativity with my own positive opinions about those people. I kind of hate negativity. Because who really needs it a majority of the time? It's almost always useless. And counter-productive.
Can you ever be negative? How does it make you feel? In what ways would you say negativity is counter-productive?

I see how I can be an unhealthy 3 when my parents are telling me about how poorly my brother and sister are doing in school. And I will always pretend to be shocked (though it's never surprising) and counter their tellings of my siblings' poor work with recent updates of how I've been doing (always way better than they).
Again, I can almost see that more as Fe...the sort of play acting. But why do you counter with reports of how you've been doing? I mean, why do you need to tell them? Will they ask you later? What do you gain from these updates?

Could it be that the reason I don't like 3s is because I AM a 3 and other 3s are my competition? They make things a lot harder for me--and so naturally I wouldn't like them?
It's possible. It could just be that the descriptions you've read make them sound like posers.

But if someone came along to compete with me, I'd just hand them the gold medal because that competitive garbage is so beneath me. That seems pretty anti-3 to me if 3s are supposed to be like top-level competers (the example frequently given is olympic athletes).
In what way is it beneath you?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Well Emberfly, having read this over, I think part of your confusion here is that you've conceptualized the enneagram stereotypically. I'm going to go through and address some of your points.
Can I just say thank you so much for being so patient with me and walking me through this? :laughing: I actually really appreciate it. I could just pick 5 and be done, but I wouldn't feel satisfied because I would way rather know what I actually am. And with many doubts all over the place with my being a 5, I think it's worth exploring it more.

In self-reporting, I'd look for allusions to self-doubt, trust/mistrust, any issues with authority, a certain vigilance (and a lot of 6s hate that word, but from my perspective that's actually what it feels like), questions about the ultimate nature of reality, a sense that the individual in question is very aware of others and potentially negative ramifications with them, a tendency toward hashing and rehashing these issues, or an over-adherence to something, a sense of being vulnerable to something bad happening, etc. Even if the typee doesn't say any of these things, there's always the question...Does it seem possible that it's coming from that mindset?
Oh. You mean like these people?:
http://personalitycafe.com/current-events/526913-storm-clouds-gathering.html

ESPECIALLY Robyn. But OP as well. (despite his identifying as 9w8)--well, actually, I guess 9 deteriorates into 6. So could still be 9w8.

It seems very much like the "everyone's out to get me" syndrome. Which, sometimes is logical, but most of the time it just rubs me the wrong way and seems so tinfoil hat, you know?

Like those people who scream "chemtrails" or "9/11 was an inside job" or "vaccines cause autism"

or frequently talk about how the government is trying to hide horrible, terrible information that's going to ruin the world for everyone and destroy life as we know it and it could come at anytime and omg quick everyone run into your underground bunkers where it's safe . . .

:/ LOL. Is that just unhealthy sp 6? Or is that normal sp 6? Because I honestly do not relate to that at all.

Yes, the government absolutely does hide things from us. Yes, the US government is a terrorist. Go to any non-US country, and you will see and realize how the US is absolutely horrible compared to most other Western countries.

But I don't get these crazy ideas of gloom and doom like these people obsess over. (to me they're crazy, anyway). I would say I'm a lot more optimistic in my outlook in that respect.

The government, while it probably does not have our best interest at heart, I don't think it has our WORST interest at heart, either, like the sp 6's would like you to believe.

Everything you've said here actually makes me think of the SP3 archetype. I can put up a good description if you are unfamiliar, but in essence, this style of three tends to feel accomplishments shouldn't be discussed, that it's distasteful to do so. They emphasize hard work and being good over flaunting accomplishments. According to the theory anyway...
Interesting idea!

How many people do you know like that, though?
Too many. There are way too many on these forums.

See:
http://personalitycafe.com/current-...k-event-hundreds-apparently-look-happens.html

Ones are, more accurately, people with a strong sense of right and wrong, who want to be on the side of "right". Sometimes, this rightness is moral, but often it is logical. Do you have a strong need for things to be logically right?
I'm not sure I'm following--what constitutes "logically" right? Something is either morally right or it is logical. There is no such thing as "logically right" unless you simply mean logical ? But anything could be logical. So maybe you mean "objectively logical" which means I would prefer external data to prove that I'm right.

Yes, I do like it when external data proves that I'm right. (◕‿◕✿)

Most importantly, a 1 is defined by The Inner Critic. Sometimes it's called the Judging Mind--a constant voice that evaluates the world around the 1, as well as the 1s thoughts and actions themselves.
1s strike me as perfectionists who want everything to be perfect (wow duh because they're perfectionists). Like they find error and fault everywhere they go. And are keenly aware of where improvement can be.

I don't identify with this. Not because I perceive it as a bad thing to be like that (although I do), but because I don't identify as always being aware of where improvement can be made. I guess if we want to think technically--I guess technically everything could always be improved.

But to me, perfect isn't an achievable ideal. So it's never something I strive for. I just strive to do really good work when it interests me to do so (and when I don't procrastinate for once and actually have enough time to give my all).

From your posts, I get a sense of someone who has strong opinions on the the rectitude of various types of people; that may speak to an evaluating mind. Just a thought.
True. I do have a lot of unpopular subjective opinions :)

No actual authority on the subject would disagree with me. Some stupid online sources based entirely on Riso and Hudson might, but I've learned to keep those in their proper place. I know 7s don't have to be like this because it's a very heavy component in my own life and I know how their perspective works; I've also witnessed 7s not realizing they're 7s due to this stereotype, and 7s reneging on their status as a 7 when they read Riso and Hudson.
Well, my perception of 7 is of someone who has a strong desire to be independent and free of others and of obligations--social, institutional, what have you.

I identify very strongly with this. I was actually awake last night trying to fall asleep.. and I kept thinking how much I hated being part of a family because I thus have "obligations" to care about them.

And I hate that. I wish we could all just be our own people and everyone take care of themselves.

I was thinking about how if my younger brother (I have no idea why I was thinking about this but anyway . . . ) were to get in some sort of accident that leaves him wheel-chair bound for the rest of his life and my parents were not alive to take care of him - - -

I was thinking. Well shit. I guess that means I have to do it then?

And I was thinking that I'd probably rather let him die than have to tie myself down like that for the rest of my life. And be financially drained by some human I played no part in creating.

I resent that I have to live for other people against my own will and choice. Due to some social obligation.

You pretty much do, and that is regrettable. I find Ocean Moonshine and Naranjo's Character and Analysis chapters are probably the best investments you can make online. How did you relate to those?
Will read them now and get back to you. Never heard of them.

(do you mean https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com) ?

Well I think by moral fiber, they mean their integrity. But tell me, why do you tend to do good work at the last possible minute?
Very smart question to ask.

I enjoy doing good work. I enjoy seeing my grade come back as high and good. I like getting the high score :)

I think it probably stems back from kindergarten (maybe even before) when I thought people were supposed to do good work (because that's what everyone tells you to do . . . ) so I did. And then people were shocked and amazed that my work was so good (despite thinking that was simply a basic requirement ? ? ) and, well, positive reinforcement I guess led to a part of me that enjoys doing good work for those who are in the position to reward me for it.

Whether the reward be excited praise "WOW that's amazing! I had no idea alskjfsd could even be so good! . . . "

Or a raise. Or what have you.

(positive reinforcement is awesome. use it on your kids).

Well I've met yucky 3s, too, but you want to keep in mind, the core of the 3 is defined by the achievement of goals; these goals will be measured by outward standards. They can typically stretch and adapt to reach those goals, though what that specifically means will be dependent upon the individual. They tend to feel the need to remain "on top of things" since everything's got to be moving toward the goal all at once and the 3 is the sole person who can do that.
I think most of the time I'm not on top of things. Most of the time I'm just idle and not accomplishing anything whatsoever.

But then deadlines approach and I start getting on top of things. I play before I work, basically.

Not sure if that's relevant to typing. But it's been a very common behavior throughout my life--I hate working when I don't absolutely need to start working. Would much prefer to play and ignore my responsibilities for as long as possible. But I always meet deadlines. Even if it's very last-minute and the work ends up sloppy--I meet the deadlines. It just always magically works out somehow.

The bolded sounds more like phobic 6 to me, if I had to type it. Nines are very numbed out and tend toward inertia and feelings of not wanting to exert themselves because it's too much trouble...rather than fearing anything overtly.
Oh, okay.

I'd say one difference between 7 and 9 is that 7s tend to see the value in trying new things even at the expense of life stability, and 9s tend to want an inner sense of stability and feeling settled. Sevens value freedom, Nines value comfort.
I see. I don't identify so strongly with 9 anymore, then. But actually I wrote a post recently about how I hate to feel comfortable :) I'll try to find it... god I write a lot :laughing:

(here it is http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...ig-fish-small-pond-syndrome.html#post17019850) <--do actually read this. It made me think I was CP 6. But perhaps it could be a 3 attitude. But explain why I procrastinate so much? And prefer play before work? This isn't a dominant 3. Perhaps a dominant 7. Who can become 3 to get shit done. But then goes back to 7. Or?

As to the bolded line. You'll want to determine if this is an interpersonal calculation based on not wanting to deal with the tension and disharmony that results from social disagreement, or if you're more worried about long-term ramifications that come from it and any potential for being alienated or having others set against you.
I'm not sure what you mean by harmony. That's kind of a concept I never understood. I prefer to get people to like me so that I can use them later when I need them. And if they like me, they're way more likely to say yes to whatever I ask of them.

In what ways are you optimistic? About what? Do you value optimism, and why (not)?
I don't know really what you mean. I'm realistic. I value neither optimism nor pessimism. But if I had to pick one, I'd pick optimism every time.

I think that's what I said.

I do not like pessimism because it seems unhealthy. And no one wants to hang around an unhealthy person.

Optimism seems idealistic and air-headed. But I much prefer that to some overly-negative person any day.

Can you ever be negative? How does it make you feel? In what ways would you say negativity is counter-productive?
Sure, I think I've shown that a lot in my posts ("ew type x is disgusting. Hate those people. I could never be one of them.")

:laughing:

Again, I can almost see that more as Fe...the sort of play acting. But why do you counter with reports of how you've been doing? I mean, why do you need to tell them? Will they ask you later? What do you gain from these updates?
Actually, no, they probably wouldn't ask me later. They've known me long enough that they just assume I'm always doing top work.

So they never ask.

Also I always feel as though I have nothing to say or contribute to a conversation. So I talk about what I know. And since school is such a huge part of my life (since I am a student !), that's what I tend to talk about with my parents. Because they're my parents and I assume that they care.

I wouldn't talk about it with people whom I would expect to not care about it.

In what way is it beneath you?
Just seems petty to want to compete with others so openly and flagrantly. Maybe not petty. What's the word I'm looking for?

It seems animalistic. Or just gross. Idk. Uncivilized. It's very much my mental image of a type 8.

That's not how I like to live my life :) Plus I can feel bad sometimes if I beat someone. Because I've been a loser before in competitions and I know how much I hate it. It doesn't feel good.

And that's what I expect the other person to feel when I beat them. And I don't like that feeling. And I don't like inflicting that feeling on someone else.

That's one thing I never really liked about success. To be the best, you have to deny everyone else that spot.

To get the raise, you have to take that opportunity away from everyone else.

And if multiple people have been working really hard and it seems as though all of them deserve a raise--but there's only one raise that can be given... that makes me feel kind of bad (bitter sweet--because it's still a raise.. so yay a raise!) because I know that equally-deserving people were cheated that opportunity almost.

But if I get a reward and I was really the only one who deserved it, there's no hard feelings in that (at least none on my side).
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I just read the Ocean Moonshine description of 7.

It made me think, yet again, that I couldn't be less 7.

Until I saw the word "libertinism," which is obviously something I identify with.

(Oh, you were wrong, by the way. They totally view 7 as the let-loose druggie, too. I frankly think you're living in denial. That or you've never actually met a 7 because they're TOTALLY like this).

edit:

And, yet again, the more I read of 5, the more I identify with it.
 
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Can I just say thank you so much for being so patient with me and walking me through this? :laughing: I actually really appreciate it. I could just pick 5 and be done, but I wouldn't feel satisfied because I would way rather know what I actually am. And with many doubts all over the place with my being a 5, I think it's worth exploring it more.
Hey no worries. I had this problem once myself, and no one stopped to help me; they just told me I was type X and when I disagreed told me I was in denial. Many years of personal growth were lost. So when I see someone with legitimate questions who really wants to understand, I feel like the least I can do is lend a helping hand.

Oh. You mean like these people?:
http://personalitycafe.com/current-events/526913-storm-clouds-gathering.html

ESPECIALLY Robyn. But OP as well. (despite his identifying as 9w8)--well, actually, I guess 9 deteriorates into 6. So could still be 9w8.

It seems very much like the "everyone's out to get me" syndrome. Which, sometimes is logical, but most of the time it just rubs me the wrong way and seems so tinfoil hat, you know?

Like those people who scream "chemtrails" or "9/11 was an inside job" or "vaccines cause autism"

or frequently talk about how the government is trying to hide horrible, terrible information that's going to ruin the world for everyone and destroy life as we know it and it could come at anytime and omg quick everyone run into your underground bunkers where it's safe . . .

:/ LOL. Is that just unhealthy sp 6? Or is that normal sp 6? Because I honestly do not relate to that at all.

Yes, the government absolutely does hide things from us. Yes, the US government is a terrorist. Go to any non-US country, and you will see and realize how the US is absolutely horrible compared to most other Western countries.

But I don't get these crazy ideas of gloom and doom like these people obsess over. (to me they're crazy, anyway). I would say I'm a lot more optimistic in my outlook in that respect.

The government, while it probably does not have our best interest at heart, I don't think it has our WORST interest at heart, either, like the sp 6's would like you to believe.
LOL! Well first I agree with your overall outlook there. I've long found it ridiculous how people always seem to think the government's out to destroy itself and all its citizens. I enjoy reading conspiracy theories (but I am not a 6), but I fail to see the government or powerful people as The Bad Guy. I tend toward optimism on those grounds, too. Or realism.

That said, I disagree that everyone there is a 6. I get what you mean, but a lot of people just like talking about this stuff...and some people just have no sense of reality and don't understand the larger context, so they start thinking rumors are real.

Prolly not everyone there is a 6, though. From what I've witnessed, Sixes are often just very...political? In the sense that they weigh the reactions of those around them, and it sometimes inhibits them from ever making a move at all. Or they weigh the consequences of their actions, planning for what might go wrong...and it suddenly starts to seem so implausible that they never quite get into action.

Too many. There are way too many on these forums.
But IRL, do you know many real people like that? I don't, and I have a lot of 1s in the family.

As to that thread, you could also argue that's Fi talking. Damned if I know.

I'm not sure I'm following--what constitutes "logically" right? Something is either morally right or it is logical. There is no such thing as "logically right" unless you simply mean logical ? But anything could be logical. So maybe you mean "objectively logical" which means I would prefer external data to prove that I'm right.
Yes, logical, but also in the more complex sense of adhering to an inner code worked out according to what makes logical (as opposed to moral) sense...but still seen as being the most "correct" method of operation.

I do not mean "objectively logical", as it doesn't necessarily rely upon external validation of rightness, though for some 1s, it may.

1s strike me as perfectionists who want everything to be perfect (wow duh because they're perfectionists). Like they find error and fault everywhere they go. And are keenly aware of where improvement can be.

I don't identify with this. Not because I perceive it as a bad thing to be like that (although I do), but because I don't identify as always being aware of where improvement can be made. I guess if we want to think technically--I guess technically everything could always be improved.

But to me, perfect isn't an achievable ideal. So it's never something I strive for. I just strive to do really good work when it interests me to do so (and when I don't procrastinate for once and actually have enough time to give my all).
Fair enough, though I'm going to suggest that 1 is likely your head-fix.

Well, my perception of 7 is of someone who has a strong desire to be independent and free of others and of obligations--social, institutional, what have you.

I identify very strongly with this. I was actually awake last night trying to fall asleep.. and I kept thinking how much I hated being part of a family because I thus have "obligations" to care about them.

And I hate that. I wish we could all just be our own people and everyone take care of themselves.

I was thinking about how if my younger brother (I have no idea why I was thinking about this but anyway . . . ) were to get in some sort of accident that leaves him wheel-chair bound for the rest of his life and my parents were not alive to take care of him - - -

I was thinking. Well shit. I guess that means I have to do it then?

And I was thinking that I'd probably rather let him die than have to tie myself down like that for the rest of my life. And be financially drained by some human I played no part in creating.

I resent that I have to live for other people against my own will and choice. Due to some social obligation.
That's why I said I detected head-center issues in you...you've got a strong sense of obligation and freedom (which I suppose touch upon certain issues of authority--who has the right to tell me to do X?). Something to note, though definitive proof of nothing.

Yeah, that's the one. Did you read all the descriptions? I'd be interested on your take on the whole thing.

Very smart question to ask.

I enjoy doing good work. I enjoy seeing my grade come back as high and good. I like getting the high score :)

I think it probably stems back from kindergarten (maybe even before) when I thought people were supposed to do good work (because that's what everyone tells you to do . . . ) so I did. And then people were shocked and amazed that my work was so good (despite thinking that was simply a basic requirement ? ? ) and, well, positive reinforcement I guess led to a part of me that enjoys doing good work for those who are in the position to reward me for it.

Whether the reward be excited praise "WOW that's amazing! I had no idea alskjfsd could even be so good! . . . "

Or a raise. Or what have you.
Hmm...this puts me in mind of 2, 3, and again, 7.

(positive reinforcement is awesome. use it on your kids).
Hopefully, I'll never have those. At my age, it's increasingly likely. But I personally always found positive reinforcement to be a bit of a joke. It was embarrassing to me when adults fawned all over the kiddie work I did. Different orientations there, I guess.

I think most of the time I'm not on top of things. Most of the time I'm just idle and not accomplishing anything whatsoever.
But are you OK with it, or do you feel like there's more you could be doing?

But then deadlines approach and I start getting on top of things. I play before I work, basically.

Not sure if that's relevant to typing. But it's been a very common behavior throughout my life--I hate working when I don't absolutely need to start working. Would much prefer to play and ignore my responsibilities for as long as possible. But I always meet deadlines. Even if it's very last-minute and the work ends up sloppy--I meet the deadlines. It just always magically works out somehow.
Again this strikes me as being a very Pe attitude. I think I saw you're currently typing as INTJ? Have you considered being some sort of TP? I was going to guess ISTP. Any thoughts?

I see. I don't identify so strongly with 9 anymore, then. But actually I wrote a post recently about how I hate to feel comfortable :) I'll try to find it... god I write a lot :laughing:

(here it is http://personalitycafe.com/type-6-f...ig-fish-small-pond-syndrome.html#post17019850) <--do actually read this. It made me think I was CP 6. But perhaps it could be a 3 attitude. But explain why I procrastinate so much? And prefer play before work? This isn't a dominant 3. Perhaps a dominant 7. Who can become 3 to get shit done. But then goes back to 7. Or?
The fact that you've emphasized productivity and improvement makes me think 3. I could see the 7, too, since you have emphasized the desire not to stagnate and to experience bigger and better things. Incidentally, I think it sort of emphasizes what I said about wanting to stay on top of things, in this case, productivity.

I'm not sure what you mean by harmony. That's kind of a concept I never understood. I prefer to get people to like me so that I can use them later when I need them. And if they like me, they're way more likely to say yes to whatever I ask of them.
That's a very Id attitude, just for reference.

Harmony isn't a touchy feely thing in this case. For Fe, it's that sort of feeling you (meaning, I) get when someone's like, "I love X", and you hate X, but you nod and smile anyway. You don't want to like...be all awkward by stating some contrary opinion.

I don't know really what you mean. I'm realistic. I value neither optimism nor pessimism. But if I had to pick one, I'd pick optimism every time.

I think that's what I said.

I do not like pessimism because it seems unhealthy. And no one wants to hang around an unhealthy person.

Optimism seems idealistic and air-headed. But I much prefer that to some overly-negative person any day.
Fair enough. In my experience, many 7s, for instance, will say they feel like they're doing something wrong (unwholesome, repugnant, whatever) by expressing negativity. You don't seem to have that issue.

Actually, no, they probably wouldn't ask me later. They've known me long enough that they just assume I'm always doing top work.

So they never ask.
How do you feel about that?

Just seems petty to want to compete with others so openly and flagrantly. Maybe not petty. What's the word I'm looking for?

It seems animalistic. Or just gross. Idk. Uncivilized. It's very much my mental image of a type 8.
You and me are gonna have to have a long private discussion about this sometime.

That's not how I like to live my life :) Plus I can feel bad sometimes if I beat someone. Because I've been a loser before in competitions and I know how much I hate it. It doesn't feel good.

And that's what I expect the other person to feel when I beat them. And I don't like that feeling. And I don't like inflicting that feeling on someone else.

That's one thing I never really liked about success. To be the best, you have to deny everyone else that spot.

To get the raise, you have to take that opportunity away from everyone else.

And if multiple people have been working really hard and it seems as though all of them deserve a raise--but there's only one raise that can be given... that makes me feel kind of bad (bitter sweet--because it's still a raise.. so yay a raise!) because I know that equally-deserving people were cheated that opportunity almost.

But if I get a reward and I was really the only one who deserved it, there's no hard feelings in that (at least none on my side).
To be honest, here again, I'm getting the sp3 archetype. Actually the 3-6 line--wanting to do one's best, but also worrying about the good of the team. It's funny, because you used it to speak against 3 a little, but there's still an emphasis on not wanting to lose...not wanting others to lose, either.


I just read the Ocean Moonshine description of 7.

It made me think, yet again, that I couldn't be less 7.

Until I saw the word "libertinism," which is obviously something I identify with.

(Oh, you were wrong, by the way. They totally view 7 as the let-loose druggie, too. I frankly think you're living in denial. That or you've never actually met a 7 because they're TOTALLY like this).
One of my friends was--and still is, I assume--a 7 who was totally against drugs their entire life. Scattered for sure, but by the age of 30 got married, settled down, and started a family...and is now a boring adult. People. We're people, not types.

I am not in denial; it's hard for me to lie to myself. Now granted, I'm not a core 7 so some issues won't apply, but as I experience this particular energy
- "Pleasure" often means something like listening to a great piece of classical music or reading a new biography; mental pleasures can take precedent over physical indulgence
- "Escape" is often like typing out this whole correspondence so I don't have to do housework, rather than running away from actual responsibilities to people.
- Fear of "boredom" means "I don't want my life to stagnate"--meaning I feel like I should always be moving toward something; I should have a new project; or I need to travel. But I've been lying in bed all day on the internet; the only thing hyperactive about me is my mind.

The takeaway about type 7, for me, was not squandering one's potential by devoting a life to collecting experiences. Though I wouldn't have seen this till full adulthood--it's not always apparent when you're very young.

And, yet again, the more I read of 5, the more I identify with it.
Did you read the others?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
But IRL, do you know many real people like that? I don't, and I have a lot of 1s in the family.
I don't really know anyone, so I'm the wrong person to ask.

Fair enough, though I'm going to suggest that 1 is likely your head-fix.
1 is not a head fix; it's a gut fix. ? 567 are the head fixes.

That's why I said I detected head-center issues in you...you've got a strong sense of obligation and freedom (which I suppose touch upon certain issues of authority--who has the right to tell me to do X?). Something to note, though definitive proof of nothing.


Yeah, that's the one. Did you read all the descriptions? I'd be interested on your take on the whole thing.
I don't know what you want me to say. They're nearly identical to all the other ones on the web. I imagine the books are no different.

But are you OK with it, or do you feel like there's more you could be doing?
No. It makes me uncomfortable when I catch myself not doing anything productive. This is actually one of the main reasons I struggle to start TV shows. They have to be really good, or else I can't justify to myself a good enough reason to spend time watching them. (but as I write this, I have an exam in 2 days that is 100% of my grade, and I haven't even studied for it. I have skipped about half the classes, too. But yet here I am doing this).

And "good" to me means that it must improve my life in some way. Whether that be that it makes me think (like a psychological thriller) or it's one that is commonly spoken about (so that I can relate to the discussions), . . . or whatever.

I spend the majority of my free time learning about topics that interest me, learning German (because it interests me and I'm nearing fluency), and watching YouTube videos--usually about topics that interest me. Although sometimes I watch them just out of boredom and to kill time--even if the topic doesn't interest me.

Actually, mini-tangent, I struggle to watch things in English on YouTube because I know that I could be using that time watching something in German on YouTube. And not only would that squelch my desire to kill time, but it would also be productive. But I don't always do it. I simply realize that I could do it.

I often do those cost/benefit analyses in my head like that. I don't always take the most cost-efficient option. But I like thinking about them--they're fun to ponder. They can get really oppressive though if you take them too far. You can feel almost deprived and oppressed by trying too hard to be perfect. I see other people who try really hard to be perfect in everything they do. And I feel so oppressed just watching them. I wouldn't want to live like that. I let myself make mistakes. So I take a break every now and then and eat chocolate or something. And it makes me break out every time I do. But it's just nice to have a change of pace from the everyday.

Again this strikes me as being a very Pe attitude. I think I saw you're currently typing as INTJ? Have you considered being some sort of TP?
I don't know what you mean by "considered." When determining my cognitive functions, naturally I ruled out 4 of them. Identifying with Te/Fi was very easy. Rather instant. If anything I'd take another TJ suggestion over a TP one.

The fact that you've emphasized productivity and improvement makes me think 3. I could see the 7, too, since you have emphasized the desire not to stagnate and to experience bigger and better things. Incidentally, I think it sort of emphasizes what I said about wanting to stay on top of things, in this case, productivity.
What kinds of things would you expect to see from someone who is an obvious type 5? What would that person be telling you?

That's a very Id attitude, just for reference.
(What does that mean?)

Harmony isn't a touchy feely thing in this case.
No, definitely not.

For Fe, it's that sort of feeling you (meaning, I) get when someone's like, "I love X", and you hate X, but you nod and smile anyway. You don't want to like...be all awkward by stating some contrary opinion.
In this situation, I do what benefits me. If someone pays me to say "I hate x and you're stupid for liking x," then I'd gladly say that. If someone paid me to say "I love x and I totally agree with you," then I'd do that, too.

If no one's paying me, then I'll have to calculate what benefits me some other way. Usually via future gain. Does this person have anything to offer me? If yes, keep their interest in me by being nice to them. If no, do whatever the fuck I want.

Fair enough. In my experience, many 7s, for instance, will say they feel like they're doing something wrong (unwholesome, repugnant, whatever) by expressing negativity. You don't seem to have that issue.
Sometimes I feel bad for saying negative things because I know how much I hate to hear them. And I don't want to instill that feeling in my listeners. (I don't want them to resent me for being negative).

But online I'm anonymous, so I'll be as negative as I please :)))

I do feel as though I suppress my negativity more than I wish that I would, though. In that way I'm quite fake. I do that because I don't want to alienate others too much. I have so many things already that alienate others (for starters, never ever talking to anyone and never forming any bonds with anyone, never doing anything social, not getting involved in anything, . . . things that might point to so last. But after reading those descriptions of the instinctual stacks, it makes me think sp>so instead of sp>sx. Because I have never shown any attempts to get to know anyone on a deep level (I don't really care about anyone. Never really have, either). But I care how I'm seen by others. So that seems to be more of an so preference.)

How do you feel about that?
I wish they'd take more of an interest in me. They definitely show a very minor interest in me. And I so rarely receive attention (because I do as much as I can to avoid attention), so sometimes I use them as my way to get attention. Since they're my parents and that's their job anyway. They owe it to me for bringing me into this world :)

They give my brother and sister infinitely more attention than they give me. And I'm very okay with this the majority of the time. Prefer it actually. But there are those seldom moments that I need my attention batteries recharged. And I use them for that.

To be honest, here again, I'm getting the sp3 archetype. Actually the 3-6 line--wanting to do one's best, but also worrying about the good of the team.
Sorry, who's on a team?

It's funny, because you used it to speak against 3 a little, but there's still an emphasis on not wanting to lose...not wanting others to lose, either.
Does anyone want to lose? Do you expect type 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9 to say "I really wish I would lose more often!! God I hate winning! I want to be a loser so bad!"

One of my friends was--and still is, I assume--a 7 who was totally against drugs their entire life. Scattered for sure, but by the age of 30 got married, settled down, and started a family...and is now a boring adult. People. We're people, not types.
The drugs thing is a metaphor. Don't take it literally. It represents a lifestyle of irresponsibility and rejection of the standard institutional means to achieve success. Often it involves actual drugs. But of course this isn't mandatory. Sometimes people are afraid of going to jail. Sometimes you just don't have access to drugs. Maybe you have a health condition that prevents you from being able to do such a thing.

- "Pleasure" often means something like listening to a great piece of classical music or reading a new biography; mental pleasures can take precedent over physical indulgence
I think pleasure is used to contrast with responsibility. 7 shirks responsibility to indulge in irresponsible, yet fun, activities. Reading isn't scandalous, but it is irresponsible if you're supposed to be doing other things with that time.

- "Escape" is often like typing out this whole correspondence so I don't have to do housework, rather than running away from actual responsibilities to people.
Yes. That's what I'm doing right now, too :) So I don't have to study . . .

- Fear of "boredom" means "I don't want my life to stagnate"--meaning I feel like I should always be moving toward something; I should have a new project; or I need to travel. But I've been lying in bed all day on the internet; the only thing hyperactive about me is my mind.
I can identify with this. I definitely have used my peers as good examples of how not to live my life--grow up in some boring town, stay in-state for college, graduate, move back to same boring town you grew up in, get a 9 to 5 job, pop out some babies, die in same shitty town you started in.

That kind of life is a waste of a life to me. I would rather die than live like that.

I realize some people are not lucky enough to have the financial or institutional means to avoid a life like that. I don't mean to offend anyone.
 
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1 is not a head fix; it's a gut fix. ? 567 are the head fixes.
This, obviously, was a typo.

I don't know what you want me to say. They're nearly identical to all the other ones on the web. I imagine the books are no different.
Some of them can vary quite a lot, though (Riso and Hudson portray 2s as the "helper", and Naranjo portrays them as the "seducer". They attack the type from different angles). Of course, you're going to get a sketch of the same sort of persona, regardless of the description. But, since you asked if there was a way to know for sure, the best way to do that is to examine the nuances and mechanisms. Reading different books sure helped me, anyway.

No. It makes me uncomfortable when I catch myself not doing anything productive. This is actually one of the main reasons I struggle to start TV shows. They have to be really good, or else I can't justify to myself a good enough reason to spend time watching them. (but as I write this, I have an exam in 2 days that is 100% of my grade, and I haven't even studied for it. I have skipped about half the classes, too. But yet here I am doing this).

And "good" to me means that it must improve my life in some way. Whether that be that it makes me think (like a psychological thriller) or it's one that is commonly spoken about (so that I can relate to the discussions), . . . or whatever.

I spend the majority of my free time learning about topics that interest me, learning German (because it interests me and I'm nearing fluency), and watching YouTube videos--usually about topics that interest me. Although sometimes I watch them just out of boredom and to kill time--even if the topic doesn't interest me.

Actually, mini-tangent, I struggle to watch things in English on YouTube because I know that I could be using that time watching something in German on YouTube. And not only would that squelch my desire to kill time, but it would also be productive. But I don't always do it. I simply realize that I could do it.

I often do those cost/benefit analyses in my head like that. I don't always take the most cost-efficient option. But I like thinking about them--they're fun to ponder. They can get really oppressive though if you take them too far. You can feel almost deprived and oppressed by trying too hard to be perfect. I see other people who try really hard to be perfect in everything they do. And I feel so oppressed just watching them. I wouldn't want to live like that. I let myself make mistakes. So I take a break every now and then and eat chocolate or something. And it makes me break out every time I do. But it's just nice to have a change of pace from the everyday.
Hmmm...the only ideas I got from that were 1 and 3. I'm sure you're aware of that already, but just saying.

I don't know what you mean by "considered." When determining my cognitive functions, naturally I ruled out 4 of them. Identifying with Te/Fi was very easy. Rather instant. If anything I'd take another TJ suggestion over a TP one.
Considered as in "entertained the option of being". I ruled out Ti/Fe at first too. I thought I was some sort of IxFP. Not saying that's the case with you, but thought I'd bring it up anyway.

What kinds of things would you expect to see from someone who is an obvious type 5? What would that person be telling you?
Hm, well for the "big fish/small pond" scenario, I imagine there's a wide variety of potential responses. There's nothing inherent in Type 5 that would make the emphasis on productivity and stagnation. When I read it, it spoke more to 3 or 7, as I said. On the other hand, there's no reason why a 5 couldn't say that, either.

In general for self-reporting, I'd think there'd be an emphasis on themes of detachment or gathering knowledge of some sort--if the 5 even were comfortable sharing those things.

(What does that mean?)
Id types are 3, 7, 8. The whole way you wrote--sort of seeing people in terms of what they can offer you and maneuvering that to your advantage, is sometimes associated with these types. Come to think of it, also rejection types (2, 5, 8)--the sense of exchange and obligation.

In this situation, I do what benefits me. If someone pays me to say "I hate x and you're stupid for liking x," then I'd gladly say that. If someone paid me to say "I love x and I totally agree with you," then I'd do that, too.

If no one's paying me, then I'll have to calculate what benefits me some other way. Usually via future gain. Does this person have anything to offer me? If yes, keep their interest in me by being nice to them. If no, do whatever the fuck I want.
In keeping with what I said above.

I have so many things already that alienate others (for starters, never ever talking to anyone and never forming any bonds with anyone, never doing anything social, not getting involved in anything, . . . things that might point to so last. But after reading those descriptions of the instinctual stacks, it makes me think sp>so instead of sp>sx. Because I have never shown any attempts to get to know anyone on a deep level (I don't really care about anyone. Never really have, either). But I care how I'm seen by others. So that seems to be more of an so preference.)
Yeah, especially if you're a 5, the "social" thing might not be "social" in the typical sense of getting involved and bonding. From what I gather of your posts, sp seems likely to me.

Sorry, who's on a team?
Metaphorically, of course--humanity.

Does anyone want to lose? Do you expect type 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9 to say "I really wish I would lose more often!! God I hate winning! I want to be a loser so bad!"
There was a video you posted about the woman who says she wanted to be appreciated, but doesn't everyone? And the guy says something like, Yes, everyone tends to feel that way about the core premises of their type.

Sure no one wants to lose, but many people wouldn't articulate it that way. I'm not very influenced by type 3, and I'd be inclined to say something like, "I don't care if I lose, but I care if I don't make an attempt." When I lose, well...as long as it was a fair shot, I feel like it's somehow an experience to grow from. I wouldn't necessarily see success as something that comes at the expense of others.

Anyway, I think the original question was, "Why is competition beneath you?" and I found it interesting you took responded in the vein that you did. Just an observation.

I think pleasure is used to contrast with responsibility. 7 shirks responsibility to indulge in irresponsible, yet fun, activities. Reading isn't scandalous, but it is irresponsible if you're supposed to be doing other things with that time.
Well it's one thing to shirk responsibility when everyone is depending on you (which is why 7s typically have commitment issues, because they do feel the need to be responsible to others that way), which is detestable...but then there are those things the individual is supposed to do for themselves (clean the room, do homework). As I understand it, 7ness is more about the second sort of pleasure.

I can identify with this. I definitely have used my peers as good examples of how not to live my life--grow up in some boring town, stay in-state for college, graduate, move back to same boring town you grew up in, get a 9 to 5 job, pop out some babies, die in same shitty town you started in.

That kind of life is a waste of a life to me. I would rather die than live like that.
I agree with that. Last question, what kind of life would you like to live?
 

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I'm really trying to. There seems to be so little free information available about Enneagram. I've read almost all of it--if not all of it. It seems like one has to invest money into buying a book or something in order to get an "in-depth" understanding.
Ebay has a sister site called half. Great resource for inexpensive, used books.

Besides that, if you are really so interested in enneagram, the 5 would be collecting extensive data, formulating theory and inundating themselves with all things Enneagram. They arent as likely to ask for help because they assume they are a nuisance to do so. 6s ask lots of questions and more easily rely on others for help.
 

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You seem to have misunderstood what I was attempting to tell you in your other thread. I'm sorry if you felt like I was pigeonholing you, because that wasn't my intention. All I was trying to do is help you find your type.

1) I never said that Fives are always miserable and depressed. Instead I said that it was highly unlikely for a 5w6 to make this statement: I feel my best actually most of the time. I'm an extremely naturally happy person. My brain makes too much dopamine or something. Like I'll drink a cup of coffee and my brain will just be orgasming in happiness. I shit you not. I just fucking live on happiness drugs all the time. I don't know why I'm so happy. But I wouldn't change it for anything.

Healthy Fives can be perfectly happy people, but average-to-unhealthy Fives are prone to anhedonia. This means that they have a reduced ability to feel pleasure. Unless you're in a state of psychological heath that very few people reach, I don't see how you could be an "extremely naturally happy person" if you were a Five. Fives can be extremely happy, but it isn't our natural state.

This quote from Naranjo illustrates what I've been saying all along:

Though I have already alluded to a repression of needs, and mentioned the suppression of
anger of ennea-type V, it seems desirable to group these descriptors along with others in a
more generalized trait of feelinglessness. It has to do with the loss of awareness of feelings and
even an interference with the generation of feeling, which results from the avoidance of
expression and action. This characteristic makes some individuals indifferent, cold, empathic,
and apathetic. Also anhedonia might be placed here, though the greater or lesser incapacity to
enjoy pleasure is a more complex phenomenon: while ennea-type I is aversive to pleasure,
ennea-type V simply appears as having a diminished capacity to experience it. In this is
implicit, however, the fact that pleasure does not rank high in the scale of values of this
character for it is postponed to more “urgent” drives, such as the drive to keep a safe distance
from others and the drive for autonomy.
2) For the most part, Fives aren't going to think that the information they gather is useless. Fives find immense comfort in gathering information. Fives who are INTJs are not exempt from the compulsive need to research, research, research. That is an essential part of this type.

Here's another quote from Naranjo that you might find helpful:

Ennea-type V is not only introversive (as is implied in moving away from relationships)
but also typically intellectual (as introverts generally tend to be). Through a predominantly
cognitive orientation the individual may seek substitute satisfaction—as in the replacement of
living through reading. Yet the symbolic replacement of life is not the only form of expression
of intense thinking activity: another aspect is the preparation for life—a preparation that is
intense to the extent that the individual never feels ready enough. In the elaboration of
perceptions as preparation for (inhibited) action, the activity of abstraction is particularly
striking, type V individuals lean towards the activity of classification and organization, and not
only display a strong attraction towards the process of ordering experience, but tend to dwell
in abstractions while at the same time avoiding concreteness. This avoidance of concreteness, in
turn, is linked to the type’s hiddenness: only the results of one’s perceptions are offered to the
world, not its raw material.

Related to abstraction and the organization of experience is an interest in science and a
curiosity in regard to knowledge. Also the inhibition of feelings and of action, along with the
emphasis of cognition gives rise to the characteristic of being a mere witness of life, a non-
attached yet keen observer of it, who in this very keenness seems to be seeking to replace life
through its understanding.
In short, Fives are more comfortable seeking out "useless" information than interacting in the world. They need to absorb this "useless" information in order to feel safe. This compulsion is what Fives need to break out of to become happy, healthy people.

Every single type can be afraid of intimacy or opening up to other people. Fives aren't just afraid of letting others in: we're afraid of letting the entire world in. We live inside of our minds in place of participating in the outside world. That is partially why unhealthy Fives are called schizoid.

Here's one more quote from Naranjo that somewhat describes what this means:

Naturally, the suppression of feelings and the avoidance of life (in the interest of avoiding
feelings) constitutes the avoidance of action along with an objective impoverishment of
experience. We may understand the sense of sterility, depletion, and meaninglessness that are
typical of type V as the result of an objective impoverishment in the life of relatedness, feeling,
and doing. The prevalence of such a sense of inner vacuum in modern times (when other
symptomatic neuroses have been relatively eclipsed by the “existential ones”) reflects the
proportion of ennea-type V individuals in the consulting rooms of psychotherapists today.
3) When I said nonlinear, I should have said scattered instead. 5w6s tend to be rather dry and formal in their writing. Obviously not all 5w6s write this way, but it's a notable pattern. Since I'm one of those people who believes that behavior can indicate type, I felt like this was worthy of inclusion. (I also respectfully disagree with everyone who feels that it's impossible to accurately type someone online. Sometimes people act more like their true selves on the internet than they do in person.)

4) Fives generally do have nonlinear thoughts. I apologize if my poor wording gave you the wrong impression.

In the end, I truly do not care if you decide on Five as your type. The only reason why I gave you my opinion on your type is because you pressed me for it. To be honest, I'm a little hurt that you would ask me to give my opinion and then trash my reasoning in another post. Regardless of whether you agreed with me, I feel like it was unfair to do that to someone whose opinion you requested.
 

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Healthy Fives can be perfectly happy people, but average-to-unhealthy Fives are prone to anhedonia. This means that they have a reduced ability to feel pleasure.

2) Fives who are INTJs are not exempt from the compulsive need to research, research, research. That is an essential part of this type. In short, Fives are more comfortable seeking out "useless" information than interacting in the world.

Fives aren't just afraid of letting others in: we're afraid of letting the entire world in. We live inside of our minds in place of participating in the outside world.
If it makes any difference these points were extremely helpful to me in confirming that yes I do have it the right way around now. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
In the end, I truly do not care if you decide on Five as your type. The only reason why I gave you my opinion on your type is because you pressed me for it. To be honest, I'm a little hurt that you would ask me to give my opinion and then trash my reasoning in another post. Regardless of whether you agreed with me, I feel like it was unfair to do that to someone whose opinion you requested.
Don't make it about yourself. You are one of dozens who gave me their opinion. And they were all very similar to yours.

I feel bad that I offended you.

Thank you for taking the time to help me.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I think 6w5 is a better fit for you than 6w7. It would at least explain why you relate well to 5s.
I thought that, too. But I think 6w5 is ultimately a lot more curious and a lot less adventurous than I am.

I think the main reason I identified with 5 is simply that I'm sp dominate and very introverted.

And five descriptions do a poor job of distinguishing fives from other run-of-the-mill introverts. And seven falls into the same pitfall except with extroverts.

Anyway, @aerotropic helped me realize that fives ultimately are a lot more interested in learning about new things and a lot less interested in experiencing new things. And I personally would say that I'm quite the reverse.

Also I would imagine that 6w5s are more pessimistic and government-phobic than I am.
 
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