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Discussion Starter #1
I haven't done extensive research about this, but I can't help but notice an alarming trend not just in Western society, but in Western psychology!

My hypothesis is that psychology least favors the behavior and personalities of the INT's (INTP and INTJ, although most NT's seem to be subject to 'discrimination' by the psych community.)

I (and many other people I know of the INTx type) have been taken to the psychologist/psychiatrist for "unhealthy" or "abnormal" behavior when in reality, is just how our personalities are.

Do you agree and/or see this trend as well? Please explain! I'd like to get some opinions!
 

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Are you saying that NTs (usually INTs) get some sort of descrimination? Can you specify what kind of discrimination, telling us how we're unhealthy and not accepting that it's our personality?

Just like a school councellor would never advice you to show the bully who's the boss and would say try to ignore it you'll find that advice stupid and not helping. A lot of psychiatrists would be just like the school councellor(not saying that they can't be right). Usually they're Fs and are less likely to give an advice that is working but very harsh and negative.
What i find irritating are the advices like "try to fit in", it's one of the worst interpretations of an actual advice which is "Present yourself in a good, polite, respectful way, but don't be a doormat"
NTs are a minority and Ts are minority in psychiatry/spiritual health which means we'll be easily discriminized.
The trend is there, definitely.
 
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Intuitive Thinkers, and among them INTPs, are the most likely to develop personality disorders, according to a major study. They're overrepresented in every category except Histrionic Personality Disorder, I believe it was.

Taking an objective view, it's very unlikely that there is a systematic bias against us by a society that pressures us to be mainstream, or a kind of unwitting 'sensor conspiracy', pardon me for putting it bluntly.

It appears more plausible that the specific cognitive adaptations that allow for our particular interaction of cognitive funtions(NTs, but also NPs in general), also make us more psychologically vulnerable to developing psychological disorders.

Now, my parents loved me, my peers accepted me, no funny uncles, no traumatic stressors in my environment at all, and I still ended up a pretty kooky character. I have periods where I think, feel and act in ways that are symptomatic of the early stages of some really weird mental disorders. So if my upbringing had made me more vulnerable, and if I'd had a specific psychological trigger in the form of some trauma or another, I could range from still normal, to criminally insane.

It's possible, because it really is a thin line between genius and madness. Now, I'm not saying you're a genius, so get down from the table and put your shirt back on. But the characteristics of NTs, and the characteristics of human beings suffering from both mild and serious psychiatric conditions, may overlap some places. That does not a conspiracy make - rather, it makes for rather talking to one weird kid too many, than one weird kid too few.

Because honestly? I'm in my mid-20s, and it's still a scary, albeit small, chance that I'll develop anything from schizotypal PD to full-blown psychosis by the time I hit my thirties. That's the sad truth, there's lots of people who lived completely normal lives, and never suspected anything, before they suddenly started praying to Space Satan and masturbating to xenomorphs.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Are you saying that NTs (usually INTs) get some sort of descrimination? Can you specify what kind of discrimination, telling us how we're unhealthy and not accepting that it's our personality?

Just like a school councellor would never advice you to show the bully who's the boss and would say try to ignore it you'll find that advice stupid and not helping. A lot of psychiatrists would be just like the school councellor(not saying that they can't be right). Usually they're Fs and are less likely to give an advice that is working but very harsh and negative.
What i find irritating are the advices like "try to fit in", it's one of the worst interpretations of an actual advice which is "Present yourself in a good, polite, respectful way, but don't be a doormat"
NTs are a minority and Ts are minority in psychiatry/spiritual health which means we'll be easily discriminized.
The trend is there, definitely.
Thank you very much on your insight! I'm sorry if my initial post was vague, I just had a lot of scrambled thoughts about this and couldn't put them into words. But this is very clearly and well-put! Thank you!
 

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Intuitive Thinkers, and among them INTPs, are the most likely to develop personality disorders, according to a major study. They're overrepresented in every category except Histrionic Personality Disorder, I believe it was.

Taking an objective view, it's very unlikely that there is a systematic bias against us by a society that pressures us to be mainstream, or a kind of unwitting 'sensor conspiracy', pardon me for putting it bluntly.

It appears more plausible that the specific cognitive adaptations that allow for our particular interaction of cognitive funtions(NTs, but also NPs in general), also make us more psychologically vulnerable to developing psychological disorders.

Now, my parents loved me, my peers accepted me, no funny uncles, no traumatic stressors in my environment at all, and I still ended up a pretty kooky character. I have periods where I think, feel and act in ways that are symptomatic of the early stages of some really weird mental disorders. So if my upbringing had made me more vulnerable, and if I'd had a specific psychological trigger in the form of some trauma or another, I could range from still normal, to criminally insane.

It's possible, because it really is a thin line between genius and madness. Now, I'm not saying you're a genius, so get down from the table and put your shirt back on. But the characteristics of NTs, and the characteristics of human beings suffering from both mild and serious psychiatric conditions, may overlap some places. That does not a conspiracy make - rather, it makes for rather talking to one weird kid too many, than one weird kid too few.

Because honestly? I'm in my mid-20s, and it's still a scary, albeit small, chance that I'll develop anything from schizotypal PD to full-blown psychosis by the time I hit my thirties. That's the sad truth, there's lots of people who lived completely normal lives, and never suspected anything, before they suddenly started praying to Space Satan and masturbating to xenomorphs.
Oh! I wasn't aware of the NP's vulnerability to disorders! Glad to read some new facts. :) Anyway, this was very helpful with my initial question, especially with the way you said that personality traits and disorder behaviors can overlap. Thank you!
 

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Oh! I wasn't aware of the NP's vulnerability to disorders! Glad to read some new facts. :) Anyway, this was very helpful with my initial question, especially with the way you said that personality traits and disorder behaviors can overlap. Thank you!
Being in a targeted subset like that, I find is pretty similar to disease control. If there was a disease that primarily targeted Nordic genotypes, and I just got off the plane in Italy, I would rather they put syringes in all of us, myself included, rather than having one of us slip through the cracks and getting us sick.

Well fucking done, Sven, you gave us the Gothenburg nipple blisters again. Wash your filthy Norrlandish hands next time.


That's what I like about NTs, though. Sure, we're more likely to be assault rapists and serial killers, but in most other subforums here, this thread probably wouldn't end with "Oh, are those facts? Ah, alright, now I see. Cool, cool. Cheers, mate."
 

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My therapist took advantage of my tendencies. She gave me research assignments on various disorders and expected a rational discussion about whether or not they applied to me during our next session. As in every profession, there are going to be folks who are good at their job and folks who are not.
 

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I haven't done extensive research about this, but I can't help but notice an alarming trend not just in Western society, but in Western psychology!

My hypothesis is that psychology least favors the behavior and personalities of the INT's (INTP and INTJ, although most NT's seem to be subject to 'discrimination' by the psych community.)

I (and many other people I know of the INTx type) have been taken to the psychologist/psychiatrist for "unhealthy" or "abnormal" behavior when in reality, is just how our personalities are.

Do you agree and/or see this trend as well? Please explain! I'd like to get some opinions!
I don't know if it's still as prevalent as it used to be, but extroverts have historically been considered the 'norm', therefore introverts were considered to have some deficit (at least in the US), although it seems the E/I differences have almost evened out at this point.

I don't know of any bias personally, but trying to mainstream everyone (and therefore marginalizing those who don't fit the expected norms) wouldn't surprise me.
 

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This.

My psychiatrist was a good example of someone who didn't like INTx's

She told me I was extremely isolated, and everything I enjoyed was not the norm and needed to be changed in order for me to ever be happy. I told her I'm fine the way I am, I have people I talk to. Then she rolled her eyes and said I needed treatment for my "social anxiety". The next three visits were all about my "unrealistic ideas" and how socially inept I was. I scoffed at her and told her that she doesn't know what she's talking about almost every time. She told me I needed to stop telling her how to do her job. I said I wouldn't have to tell her how to do her job if she helped me.

Then she said if I was capable of solving my problems myself I wouldn't be in her office. A week later she called me and asked about my appointment with her that day, I said I wasn't going to see her any more. Boom.

Anyway, it would seem that way. Or at least in my case.
 

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This.

My psychiatrist was a good example of someone who didn't like INTx's

She told me I was extremely isolated, and everything I enjoyed was not the norm and needed to be changed in order for me to ever be happy. I told her I'm fine the way I am, I have people I talk to. Then she rolled her eyes and said I needed treatment for my "social anxiety". The next three visits were all about my "unrealistic ideas" and how socially inept I was. I scoffed at her and told her that she doesn't know what she's talking about almost every time. She told me I needed to stop telling her how to do her job. I said I wouldn't have to tell her how to do her job if she helped me.

Then she said if I was capable of solving my problems myself I wouldn't be in her office. A week later she called me and asked about my appointment with her that day, I said I wasn't going to see her any more. Boom.

Anyway, it would seem that way. Or at least in my case.
This is why I think INTJs should stay away from ESFJ therapists. I'm guessing she's ESFJ based on what she said to you. Your responses were the epitome of perfection, by the way.
 

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Well I thought the general rule of thumb was that unless behavior has a negative impact on ones life it's not a disorder pretty much. If you can function fine as you are then there's clearly no need for help, so i'm not sure why Psychs would be out to make INTXs normal especially when there is no such thing as normal. Sounds like just a shitty psych that isn't suited for the field really.

I'm not sure how one would acquire information to perceive a trend in which they are out to change individuals behaviors of INTXs. Would be curious for someone to substantiate in some way there is such a bias as trying to normalize people because this to me seems to not really fit with good practice.
 

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This is why I think INTJs should stay away from ESFJ therapists. I'm guessing she's ESFJ based on what she said to you. Your responses were the epitome of perfection, by the way.

Thanks Quorina, I agree she's probably an ESFJ. We were completely different. If I get another therapist, I'm hoping she'll at least have two letters in common with me. It seems like most therapists (at least the ones I've seen) are ESFJs? Perhaps it's just me, but most have acted like that towards me and we don't get along whatsoever. I know most are extroverted and feelers, I can never find one that I really relate to.
 

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Not sure where you are going so I apologize in advance if I run on a tangent or tend to be harsh when I am just presenting factual information which people may take personally:

I have observed that many psychologist's/psychiatrist's are biased against INTP and INTJ because they themselves are a bit of a mess. The psychological community, and society in general places far too much value on "feelings" over reality. This is not to say we should all be Vulcan's, but instead it appears that this is more a mark of intellectual maturity, self confidence, and self control to not be overly emotional in initial reactions.

The truth is that the more you are educated, the more you make decisions based on facts instead of feelings. This is because an educated mind will reserve judgement to prevent oneself from being manipulated or an incorrect brash assessment. Yet if you take Aristotle's timeless quote of "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.", you will be labeled as an INT of some sort.

Feelings are indicators of our desires and rightfully rule the domain of our passions. Problems exist when people use feelings to make judgements that override real evidence. It is unpopular to say especially with the current climate of our pop culture but it is the truth. Unfortunately it is a fact that many are intellectually lazy and like to point at people character as defective who differ from them when it is the majority of society that tends to have serious issues. People who rely of feelings vs. evidence make poorer decisions because those decisions are uninformed.. it is just a fact.

It is also a fact as I said that people who think differently often despise intellectuals and this goes for people of the physiological community as well. Most therapists become therapists because they are screwed up or at least were as a child and are trying to understand their family life. Unfortunately this means that they accidentally project their problems on others, thinking that if others don't react the same way they did that they have physiological issues when nothing can be further from the truth.
 

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This.

My psychiatrist was a good example of someone who didn't like INTx's

She told me I was extremely isolated, and everything I enjoyed was not the norm and needed to be changed in order for me to ever be happy. I told her I'm fine the way I am, I have people I talk to. Then she rolled her eyes and said I needed treatment for my "social anxiety". The next three visits were all about my "unrealistic ideas" and how socially inept I was. I scoffed at her and told her that she doesn't know what she's talking about almost every time. She told me I needed to stop telling her how to do her job. I said I wouldn't have to tell her how to do her job if she helped me.

Then she said if I was capable of solving my problems myself I wouldn't be in her office. A week later she called me and asked about my appointment with her that day, I said I wasn't going to see her any more. Boom.

Anyway, it would seem that way. Or at least in my case.
That's just an example of a poor therapist. :/

Hope you find someone better. Good therapists understand that it is a two-way process, not a one-way "I tell you everything and you do it" process.

Honestly, she could have just as easily been an ESFJ as she could have been an INTJ. The bottom line is, she was thinking she could just tell you how everything is and not take your input seriously on the matter. Which is not what good therapy is.

I have heard of the same thing with medical doctors sometimes; cocky ones who think that they know everything and that you can't possibly know the first thing about your own health. Keep in mind, nobody likes these so-called "professionals." It's not type-specific.
 
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Why are you in therapy to begin with? People are in therapy because they need help, but then say they don't. Leave then. They aren't your friends. Who learns from people who please them? Be an adult about it. Does your physician tell you, what you want to hear? Where does this work in any area of life?
 

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@LostFavor Reading what you wrote reminded me of one of my other pet peeves of psychology:

There is an inerrant flaw with Therapy that is identical to Alcoholics Anonymous: The underlying premise is that you can not solve your problems when in reality YOU are the only one who can solve your own problems.
 

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Not sure where you are going so I apologize in advance if I run on a tangent or tend to be harsh when I am just presenting factual information which people may take personally:

I have observed that many psychologist's/psychiatrist's are biased against INTP and INTJ because they themselves are a bit of a mess. The psychological community, and society in general places far too much value on "feelings" over reality. This is not to say we should all be Vulcan's, but instead it appears that this is more a mark of intellectual maturity, self confidence, and self control to not be overly emotional in initial reactions.

The truth is that the more you are educated, the more you make decisions based on facts instead of feelings. This is because an educated mind will reserve judgement to prevent oneself from being manipulated or an incorrect brash assessment. Yet if you take Aristotle's timeless quote of "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.", you will be labeled as an INT of some sort.

Feelings are indicators of our desires and rightfully rule the domain of our passions. Problems exist when people use feelings to make judgements that override real evidence. It is unpopular to say especially with the current climate of our pop culture but it is the truth. Unfortunately it is a fact that many are intellectually lazy and like to point at people character as defective who differ from them when it is the majority of society that tends to have serious issues. People who rely of feelings vs. evidence make poorer decisions because those decisions are uninformed.. it is just a fact.

It is also a fact as I said that people who think differently often despise intellectuals and this goes for people of the physiological community as well. Most therapists become therapists because they are screwed up or at least were as a child and are trying to understand their family life. Unfortunately this means that they accidentally project their problems on others, thinking that if others don't react the same way they did that they have physiological issues when nothing can be further from the truth.
Feelings are subjective things, that facts cannot reach. Facts are not magic. They are not holy water, you sprinkle on things, and rid evil spirits. They are not even factual questions. A person's journey in life is not a fact. The reason people are even in there, is because they are running from their feelings, and insist an objective, outside standard will make all their decisions for them. Go read a science book if you want that. See if it tells you how to live.
 

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Why are you in therapy to begin with? People are in therapy because they need help, but then say they don't. Leave then. They aren't your friends. Who learns from people who please them?
People don't always know what they need help with. And sometimes they know better what they don't need help with than what they do need help with.

Either way, brute-forcing supposed facts about a person onto the person has a success rate of something like negative infinity in basically every scenario in any field, ever.

@LostFavor Reading what you wrote reminded me of one of my other pet peeves of psychology:

There is an inerrant flaw with Therapy that is identical to Alcoholics Anonymous: The underlying premise is that you can not solve your problems when in reality YOU are the only one who can solve your own problems.
For some therapists maybe, but I'm not convinced it's a problem with the field itself. My experiences would tell me otherwise - that good therapists understand clearly that when it comes down to it, you are exactly the one who can solve your problems.

It's just their job to try to help you figure out how and what to do to reach that point.
 
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