[Finaille]

Hi SPs can you tell me if this is common behavior from your kind?

Precursor- This behavior is not representative of any specific type nor a stereotype. I recognize that what is going on is extreme immaturity, but I figured maybe if I can peg her type down better I can gain a better handle on the situation. I think she is an ESTP and she believes so as well.

So my fiance's sister seems to have issues with me, and it's really confusing me. There will be one moment she acts like my best friend, then she will later vent about me (in public too... like Facebook or her blog). She is supposed to be my bridesmaid for my wedding in June, but she recently informed me that her boyfriend's army graduation may be moved up to three days before my wedding. Long story short, if this occurs, she will not be at my wedding.

That obviously does cause some upset because I really wanted her to be a bridesmaid plus she already committed, would prefer to have my ducks in a row, and I would like to find a replacement bridesmaid. I would also like to know as soon as possible if she is going to her boyfriend's graduation, so I can make other plans to compensate her absence. In fact, I've found the replacement if necessary! But knowing her (and what she's done in the past) I'm concerned I won't get a good answer until too late. If I just plop the replacement in before she knows for sure about the graduation, she will be offended. If I allow her until right up before the wedding to make up her mind and she chooses to go to the graduation, then I'm frazzled with significantly last minute changes. By the way, the only reason I say this is an issue is because it happened before. I do not trust her to make a decision she will stick to far enough in advanced because of past experiences.

I know my fiance and her family is not terribly happy about her random change in plan and disturbance in her dynamic. I also recognize the importance of her going to see her boyfriend and want to be a good support. But is it being catty of me to pretty much never trust her again with big commitments or put a lot of support into her big events? I don't want her to get the idea she can walk all over me and still expect what she has gotten from me.

I just want to find a decision that won't tick her off/cause upset prior to the wedding (I'm frazzled enough with a job promotion, volunteering, and moving out of the house). I just want to find a smooth transition into either kicking her out of the wedding party, or convincing her to make it here for the wedding. I have made the suggestion to fly her and her boyfriend out to my wedding so she can still be involved, so I am trying to come up with solutions that get us all what we want.

 

[BlueG]

Touchy subject.

Ultimately you are the person who knows her the best.

I know, personally, that if I didn't have a rule against manipulating people, I would attempt the same thing. I am not saying she is manipulating you, but she's looking out for herself. I equate it to the times when I was less mature (middle school and such), and I would try to fit people into my schedule so I could do everything I wanted and I didn't really give a thought to what they had to sacrifice. She wants something to fall back on.

I think her brother needs to talk to her also.

In any case, don't let it get in the way of what you want to do with your wedding. Congratulations Ms. Soon to Be Bride.

 

[Finaille]

Thanks. Since I posted this morning, my fiance and I made the decision to add a fourth bridesmaid; a mutual friend from church. We concluded since we started the wedding party uneven anyways (4 men, 3 women) it would either create a complete balance if his sister stays, or continue to be 4/3 if she chooses to go.

I know she has a lot to learn in life. It's interesting to see the people who have responded to her Facebook post (which was a tad humiliating in the first place; I only expressed unhappiness at her change of plans... she is creating the feelings of personal guilt). The hardest part to watch is she is taking the road that nearly mimics what her own parents did... though that is what she is trying most to avoid. It's a very interesting predicament, to say the least. I've learned a while ago to just let her do what she wants; she won't listen to anybody that doesn't agree with her.

But, I still don't think I should trust her for major things again... unless she earns it. I love her dearly, though I am completely new to this whole 'having sisters' thing. Love though doesn't always relate to having completely open boundaries. I've learned that a lot through recent experience and therapy. I don't want to judge nor guilt her; I know her family has already expressed unhappiness in her choice. I understand fully why she wants to do it, so I am giving her the go ahead to make whatever choice she desires best. I do think though that it is fair for her to understand why I wouldn't continue to trust her for commitments/her word.

 

[BlueG]

That's a great plan.

I understand that frustrated (is that the word?) feeling when someone makes things personal when you never directed your displeasure at the person themselves. I am anti-Facebook venting. My friends' list must roll their eyes every time they see me get into warrior mode on hypocritical Facebook statuses.

Love though doesn't always relate to having completely open boundaries.

Completely correct.

I wouldn't contact her just to have a conversation about why you don't trust her commitments. My sister, ESFP, sounds a bit like what you've described. She's not reliable. What I do is when she makes a commitment, I arrange alternative plans expecting her not to follow through and I tell her about them. She'll then ask me why and I'll tell her I don't believe she'll follow through. I don't make it into a guilt tripping scene, it's just to let her know.

I personally would go straight to the defense if someone contacted me with the sole purpose of telling me I was unreliable. Excuses out of the ***. I'd rather someone just let me know through the process above.

 

[Finaille]

I wouldn't contact her just to have a conversation about why you don't trust her commitments. My sister, ESFP, sounds a bit like what you've described. She's not reliable. What I do is when she makes a commitment, I arrange alternative plans expecting her not to follow through and I tell her about them. She'll then ask me why and I'll tell her I don't believe she'll follow through. I don't make it into a guilt tripping scene, it's just to let her know.

I personally would go straight to the defense if someone contacted me with the sole purpose of telling me I was unreliable. Excuses out of the ***. I'd rather someone just let me know through the process above.

And I agree. You can have the nicest person tell you that you're unreliable, and that still would put me in defense mode! What you mentioned about your sister is basically about what I did with his sister, and I think that's the most appropriate way to handle it in most situations. I can only see two reactions: one- they don't care, and they'll keep moving on OR two- they will eventually feel bad about inconveniencing people to the point where others can expect it and start changing their behavior. Berating just doesn't do any good.

I don't know; I couldn't peg her as ESFP. I don't know any ESFPs who tell it as it is, isn't afraid to get in your face if you're wrong and call you out on everything bad you've ever done. They are usually pretty peaceful, or react on a more emotional level.

There's another sister (my fiance has two) that I assume is ESFP... but she's generally pretty reliable. The ESFP sister = why can't everybody get along? the ESTP (presumed) sister = why can't people see that my way is always right? They are both clearly Se doms, though

I toyed with the idea she may be ISTP; however she doesn't strike me as a dom Ti user. The last sibling, who is a male ISTP, can be a challenge... but won't waffle on a decision the way his sisters will.

The whole family dynamic from my fiance's side is just fascinating, really. They are never on the same page, which is why I was hoping to get advice on how to deal with her more specifically. None of her family members, maybe except for the other sister, can really understand her. You have an xSFJ mother and an INTP father, with INFP/ISTP sons and ESFP/ESTP daughters.

 

[BlueG]

I wasn't suggesting your fiance's sister was an ESFP. I was telling you my sister's type because it's informative. I think because ESFP and ESTP are so different from one another, that you in all likelihood have the type right (assuming she is a Se-dom.)

I am LOL'ing at the family dynamics.

Do you know her boyfriend's type?

 

[Finaille]

I wasn't suggesting your fiance's sister was an ESFP. I was telling you my sister's type because it's informative. I think because ESFP and ESTP are so different from one another, that you in all likelihood have the type right (assuming she is a Se-dom.)

I am LOL'ing at the family dynamics.

Do you know her boyfriend's type?

I thought about adding that, but I figured you'd see it and I'd correct myself if you mentioned it!

Her boyfriend strikes me as ENTx; I lean ENTJ because he doesn't scream Ne to me... Te seems a tad more accurate. The dynamic they share is something I cannot even comprehend! I have only met him twice and he hasn't impressed me a whole lot.

Though, when I think about it, I see some instances where he could be a Ne user. I don't know many ENTPs in person (if any?) but I can see some similarities in behavior to myself.

I'm just happy that I have an INFP fiance. I pray to all heck that we have xNFP children (does it work that way? Please say it does!).

 

[BlueG]

LOL!

I have at least one ENTP friend. It's super funny when we get together and use Ne on people to make jokes. But I really can't help discern an ENTP from an ENTJ when strictly talking about function order.

I'm just happy that I have an INFP fiance. I pray to all heck that we have xNFP children (does it work that way? Please say it does!).

If you have any ISTP's, I call dibs.

 

[Finaille]

LOL!

I have at least one ENTP friend. It's super funny when we get together and use Ne on people to make jokes. But I really can't help discern an ENTP from an ENTJ when strictly talking about function order.



If you have any ISTP's, I call dibs.

Certainly; if we do, I know you'll have a fabulous one! My fiance is the only one who gets along with his brother in the family ^^; he is fabulous at understanding how to communicate with many different types of people. So I feel relieved that I have somebody with ISTP experience... it's a mystery to me albeit an extremely fascinating one!

 

[BlueG]

Certainly; if we do, I know you'll have a fabulous one! My fiance is the only one who gets along with his brother in the family ^^; he is fabulous at understanding how to communicate with many different types of people. So I feel relieved that I have somebody with ISTP experience... it's a mystery to me albeit an extremely fascinating one!

So having an ISTP as a soon to be brother-in-law is stressing you out?
Would you say you relate to the ISTP?

 

[Finaille]

So having an ISTP as a soon to be brother-in-law is stressing you out?
Would you say you relate to the ISTP?

Naw he really doesn't stress me out. He's on a bit of a rebellious streak, but has never made it my business or seems to have any clear desire to let me in. When he was less rebellious, he would consult me on relationship advice. I do know he approves of me, which I am incredibly grateful about.

I think the hardest aspect of my relationship with my soon to be brother-in-law is we have a completely different way of thinking. While I'm respectful of his choices and know to give him space (like my fiance does), my fiance at least can communicate on the level of technology. I'm just not into cars/motorcycles/snowmobiling and appear to be inept at even understanding the basics of motors and parts. He isn't really into personality theory or psychology in general. Our few common grounds appear to be related to winter sports (but he snowboards, I ski). He's offered to give me his snowboard that no longer fits him and to teach me, as well.

And then we also clash in matters of handling our affairs. He's very course, upfront, and can generally only see his point of view. I tend to hang back, am gentle in approach, and try to understand the side of every party involved. The only time he hurt my feelings, I expressed that I was confused by his approach... he did apologize and explain the circumstances to me but only over text.

I sometimes wonder if he views me as the bad guy because I side with his dad at times. The ability to see multiple sides for one issue has been irritating for some people... they think that if I listen to the other party and understand that side, then I don't care about them.

 

[BlueG]

I see.

When I have to know someone because of a friend or sibling, I don't want to talk to them. I would have to pretend to be interested in them and it's just uncomfortable forced interactions. It's really easy if we're doing something physical where we don't have to talk and there is no danger of it being awkward if we don't talk. Snowboarding would be one of those things.

And then we also clash in matters of handling our affairs. He's very course, upfront...

Hahaha, yeah. That's standard.

generally only see his point of view. I tend to hang back, am gentle in approach, and try to understand the side of every party involved.

I sometimes wonder if he views me as the bad guy because I side with his dad at times. The ability to see multiple sides for one issue has been irritating for some people... they think that if I listen to the other party and understand that side, then I don't care about them.

That's the mark of an immature ISTP. I think when he matures and actually acts as the mediator for some arguments, he'll change his opinion on that one.


I remember being in a car with my friend and her mother. Her mother was driving because we weren't old enough to drive yet. Her mother and her were having an argument, and my friend started to back-talk her mother's seemingly reasonable requests. I interjected and said, "Don't back-talk your mother." Luckily my friend didn't get mad at me for that. It wasn't an empathetic thing for the mother, it was a case of who was right and who was wrong. Then and now I only care to see all sides of a story to see who's correct and who's not. Even if it's a battle of emotions, there's still someone who's correct and incorrect, (or sometimes they are both incorrect or both correct.)

 

[Finaille]

I see.

When I have to know someone because of a friend or sibling, I don't want to talk to them. I would have to pretend to be interested in them and it's just uncomfortable forced interactions. It's really easy if we're doing something physical where we don't have to talk and there is no danger of it being awkward if we don't talk. Snowboarding would be one of those things.

I guess that part I don't understand as much; I mean, if I like them, I like them. If I don't I don't. I wouldn't react solely because it's a friend's friend or sibling's friend. But it does significantly help me understand him a bit; this seems to be how he reacts to most people introduced in the family.

Though, he does get along with the other sister's boyfriend. They have more common interest, which I would assume helps.

That's the mark of an immature ISTP. I think when he matures and actually acts as the mediator for some arguments, he'll change his opinion on that one.


I remember being in a car with my friend and her mother. Her mother was driving because we weren't old enough to drive yet. Her mother and her were having an argument, and my friend started to back-talk her mother's seemingly reasonable requests. I interjected and said, "Don't back-talk your mother." Luckily my friend didn't get mad at me for that. It wasn't an empathetic thing for the mother, it was a case of who was right and who was wrong. Then and now I only care to see all sides of a story to see who's correct and who's not. Even if it's a battle of emotions, there's still someone who's correct and incorrect, (or sometimes they are both incorrect or both correct.)

He's young; only about 19. I suppose maturity will change a lot over the next few years. I do hope he continues to stay in contact with my fiance... I know how much my fiance cares/worries over his brother and just wants to see him succeed in being independent/handling his own affairs. Hopefully at some point we can have a less awkward relationship, but I think he's a smart individual and has the ability to do something really awesome with his life!

 

[BlueG]

I guess that part I don't understand as much; I mean, if I like them, I like them. If I don't I don't. I wouldn't react solely because it's a friend's friend or sibling's friend. But it does significantly help me understand him a bit; this seems to be how he reacts to most people introduced in the family.

It also happens with people ISTP's choose themselves, just to a lesser extent.

He's young; only about 19. I suppose maturity will change a lot over the next few years. I do hope he continues to stay in contact with my fiance... I know how much my fiance cares/worries over his brother and just wants to see him succeed in being independent/handling his own affairs. Hopefully at some point we can have a less awkward relationship, but I think he's a smart individual and has the ability to do something really awesome with his life!

Hopefully with the maturing, LOL!

I cannot for the life of me remember which thread the ISTP's talked about this same thing. I always suggest that you guys do something where talking isn't necessary, and if an awkward moment crops up, y'all can just absorb yourself in the activity. I am sure y'all share an common interest, you just have to look for it.

 

[Thalassa]

Hmmm...I don't know if it's an SP behavior, per se, but yes ...VERY long-term plans make me quite nervous. I remember in high school not knowing what or why I'd go to college, so I just opted out for a while, because committing for four years made me feel trapped. I also don't like cell phone contracts, etc. No, I'm not kidding.

ON THE OTHER HAND, because I am SFP and an Enneagram 6...instead of say, an STP and Enneagram 7...if my heart is in something, and I really love someone or a group of people, I will be be DEAD SET loyal to them in the long-term. I am quite capable of long-term personal commitments in terms of genuinely loving and being loyal to a partner or friend.

But yeah thinking about "I have to do such and such, on such and such a date" makes me nervous. Like, thinking I have to get up at 6 AM to take a flight three months from now makes me think of all the things that could change within three months, and how I don't know if on that date if I'll be physically well, or have other things going on.

Also, I understand your fiance's sister's position, as her boyfriend's graduation may be more important to her than your wedding, which she probably sees as secondary in her world.

On the other hand, conversely, you want to control YOUR special day with YOUR man, at your wedding.

I think you and your fiance came up with a good solution. Maybe your fiance's sister feels trapped by being expected to immediately choose between her brother and her lover.

I can see both perspectives. And yes, venting publicly without considering future consequences sounds like something a young Se dom might do.

 

[Finaille]

Thanks @fourtines for your reply!

Ultimately, I have proceeded to convince family members not to argue with my fiance's sister. I figure it's pretty much a useless cause and will give her additional reason to think that her family is inhibiting her desires. She is welcome to see her boyfriend if necessary... but I'm sure if she makes the choice to see him versus attend my wedding there will be future consequences of her actions. If she goes, I probably wouldn't trust her with future commitments again unless she was able to rebuild that trust and I assume many other family members would likely feel similar.

Either way, she is free to do what she wants and I don't want to worry about it too much. I have a fourth bridesmaid who will be prepped into position so it's not too big of a deal if the sister comes or not. The sister already knows the family wants her there, so no sense in providing additional guilt, right?

 

[Thalassa]

Thanks @fourtines for your reply!

Ultimately, I have proceeded to convince family members not to argue with my fiance's sister. I figure it's pretty much a useless cause and will give her additional reason to think that her family is inhibiting her desires. She is welcome to see her boyfriend if necessary... but I'm sure if she makes the choice to see him versus attend my wedding there will be future consequences of her actions. If she goes, I probably wouldn't trust her with future commitments again unless she was able to rebuild that trust and I assume many other family members would likely feel similar.

Either way, she is free to do what she wants and I don't want to worry about it too much. I have a fourth bridesmaid who will be prepped into position so it's not too big of a deal if the sister comes or not. The sister already knows the family wants her there, so no sense in providing additional guilt, right?

I think you're being very understanding and have a very flexible solution.

She may also be getting pressure from her boyfriend. It's possible that she feels very upset about getting pressure from family, and possibly from him saying whatever.

Family loyalty is not an automatic thing for all people, and I almost want to say this actually seems a bit ISTP-ish, like "omgz my freakin' family is trying to trap me from having my own life and doing my own thing because of some Fe obligation." She may be inwardly torn between seriously wanting the freedom to just go be with her boyfriend, and be sheerly motivated by nothing more than a sense of guilt to go to your wedding, which may make her feel resentful.

Either way, just give her a short period of time and see if she comes to a decision. If she doesn't make a decision after giving her space and time to think, then yes I do agree she's being kind of selfish.

 

[Finaille]

I think you're being very understanding and have a very flexible solution.

She may also be getting pressure from her boyfriend. It's possible that she feels very upset about getting pressure from family, and possibly from him saying whatever.

Family loyalty is not an automatic thing for all people, and I almost want to say this actually seems a bit ISTP-ish, like "omgz my freakin' family is trying to trap me from having my own life and doing my own thing because of some Fe obligation." She may be inwardly torn between seriously wanting the freedom to just go be with her boyfriend, and be sheerly motivated by nothing more than a sense of guilt to go to your wedding, which may make her feel resentful.

Either way, just give her a short period of time and see if she comes to a decision. If she doesn't make a decision after giving her space and time to think, then yes I do agree she's being kind of selfish.

And that's why I added in bridesmaid number four. Either we have balance now (four guys and four girls) or are back to the way it was before (four guys and three girls, just a different female ^^. No big changes for me to freak over and I'm prepared for any decision she may make!

Thanks, as well. I know she is also angry because family keeps telling her that I'm handling the issue with grace and she isn't... in basic terms. Probably another issue to feel resentful over.

I've wondered if she could be ISTP. The other brother in the family is ISTP, but he has a closer connection to my fiance so wouldn't break loyalty. However, he treats the rest of the family the same way the sister does.

How interesting...

 

[Thalassa]

And that's why I added in bridesmaid number four. Either we have balance now (four guys and four girls) or are back to the way it was before (four guys and three girls, just a different female ^^. No big changes for me to freak over and I'm prepared for any decision she may make!

Thanks, as well. I know she is also angry because family keeps telling her that I'm handling the issue with grace and she isn't... in basic terms. Probably another issue to feel resentful over.

I've wondered if she could be ISTP. The other brother in the family is ISTP, but he has a closer connection to my fiance so wouldn't break loyalty. However, he treats the rest of the family the same way the sister does.

How interesting...

If we follow Keirsey, yes an SP would feel rather inferior and angry that they were being trumped by an NFs Diplomacy, their greatest strength, which is a young SPs weakest skill. I have experienced moments where I felt either angry that someone was being more socially tactful than I was - like hey I have to right to feel the way I feel, I don't have to be all nicey nice, and fuck you for saying I should be - and other times I actually felt guilty or inferior, like what is lacking in me that I can piss people off so much when I'm upset, I just can't manage other people with the grace that another might. I used to be really admiring of IxFJs for this reason. But also sometimes I feel hateful toward people who I feel are being wishy-washy or weak by being "too diplomatic" in my opinion. This is one of the reasons why I do pay attention to the Keirsey temperaments.

I think IxTPs, though, with their inferior Fe probably have it the worst. I have a sense of obligation to the people I love because I love them. If my Fi is in something, I AM THERE. I help people, I support them, I do what is kind and useful.

On the other hand, an IxTP may not see the value in this, at least not in the moment. My STP can seem to be a really selfish jerk with his family sometimes, like just say preposterous things, even after they've been working hard to cook dinner that he's consuming or something is going down and he's just avoiding being helpful, because being helpful simply doesn't put a blip on his radar. However, on another day he may be ready to run in a split second to his mother or sister's defense, or suddenly show deep loyalty and even dutiful behavior. That's why I'm shaky on whether his Fe is tertiary or inferior. He's quite young.

It may be the same case with your fiance's STP sister. It may be hard to say how weak or strong her Fe is if she's very young. I don't know her well enough to say.

And yes, even in an ISTP you can see deep loyalty because of a particular tie, but absolute resentment and anger toward any of "dutiful loyalty" that is simply seen by them as "a bullshit Fe formality" that may clash with their own need for independence.

Good luck with everything, I hope your wedding is awesome. Just remember, no matter what happens, you and your fiance will be together!

 

[The Great One]

The Bridesmaid's behavior seems like some combo of Fe<Ti or vice versa. She could be ESTP, but do you think maybe she could be ESFJ?