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Discussion Starter #1
Here is an argument that I have thought of that I think is a use of Fe. Please tell me if I am correct.

"If you think that what you are doing is right, why are you trying to hide it?"

I have my reasons about why I think it is Fe but I don't want to eliminate as much confirmation bias from this thread as I can.
 

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Here is an argument that I have thought of that I think is a use of Fe. Please tell me if I am correct.

"If you think that what you are doing is right, why are you trying to hide it?"

I have my reasons about why I think it is Fe but I don't want to eliminate as much confirmation bias from this thread as I can.
This is Ni-Fe, I believe.
And I find it to be an incredibly valid argument.
 

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Fe is about group ethics and focusing on others emotions. This statement, in of itself (Without any commentary on previous conversation or line of thought) is not exactly Fe.

I think it might be Fi. Fi as about personal ethics and focusing on one's own emotions, so if the personal ethics were to be, say, don't hide anything, then this statement would come around easily.

Personally, I would hide what I'm doing even if its right if the results are dependent upon keeping it hidden.
 

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Fe is about group ethics and focusing on others emotions. This statement, in of itself (Without any commentary on previous conversation or line of thought) is not exactly Fe.

I think it might be Fi. Fi as about personal ethics and focusing on one's own emotions, so if the personal ethics were to be, say, don't hide anything, then this statement would come around easily.

Personally, I would hide what I'm doing even if its right if the results are dependent upon keeping it hidden.
I'm going to translate the sentence to help us get to the bottom of this.
I can't tell if it's Ne-Fi or Ni-Fe now that you mention it and I am personally confused with it.

"If you think that what you are doing is right, why are you trying to hide it?" said Sally (for the sake of this argument, btw. I imagine Sally had a look of indignation on her face and her hand on her hip)

Put into some rough context:
Sally just found out that Fred went out to eat with his ex-girlfriend Martha on Tuesday night. Fred told Sally he was going out for a beer with the guys but went to dinner with Martha.
Sally found out from the waiter who happens to be a friend of hers who worked at the restaurant.
Sally asks Fred about it.
Fred says, "It was nothing. It wasn't a big deal. We're just friends."
Sally says, "If you thought what you were doing was right, then why did you try to hide it?"
Sally's argument is: if Fred thought that there was nothing "ethically" wrong with it, Fred wouldn't have violated an ethical premise (honesty in the relationship) by lying about it.
This accusation though assumes that Sally has right to access all Fred's experiences and happenings.
Feels like just a typical argument.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm going to translate the sentence to help us get to the bottom of this.
I can't tell if it's Ne-Fi or Ni-Fe now that you mention it and I am personally confused with it.

"If you think that what you are doing is right, why are you trying to hide it?" said Sally (for the sake of this argument, btw. I imagine Sally had a look of indignation on her face and her hand on her hip)

Put into some rough context:
Sally just found out that Fred went out to eat with his ex-girlfriend Martha on Tuesday night. Fred told Sally he was going out for a beer with the guys but went to dinner with Martha.
Sally found out from the waiter who happens to be a friend of hers who worked at the restaurant.
Sally asks Fred about it.
Fred says, "It was nothing. It wasn't a big deal. We're just friends."
Sally says, "If you thought what you were doing was right, then why did you try to hide it?"
Sally's argument is: if Fred thought that there was nothing "ethically" wrong with it, Fred wouldn't have violated an ethical premise (honesty in the relationship) by lying about it.
This accusation though assumes that Sally has right to access all Fred's experiences and happenings.
Feels like just a typical argument.
Good point. I should have added context to my OP.

Consider this example:
Sally just found out that her friend Ted is going to Burning Man.
Sally learned from school and church that drinking and drugs are bad.
Sally ask Ted about it.
Ted says "I don't see anything wrong with drinking or drugs because I am not hurting anyone."
Sally says "If you thought what you were doing was right, then why did you try to hide it?"
Ted says "I didn't tell you about it because I know that you think it is wrong, not that I think it is wrong."

The views and opinions expressed herein are those of Ted and do not necessarily reflect the views of the author, this site or anyone commenting on this thread. :)

Doesn't sound like any Iron I've ever heard of.
lol @ science
 

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In that example, it looks like Ted is the one exercising Fe. It's like a guy hanging out with someone who was just a female friend. He avoids telling his girlfriend due to the fear that she'll take it the wrong way. Like Ted, he's thinking about how another person will see the situation.
Sally seems to be using Fi. The idea that "If you thought what you were doing was right, you wouldn't try to hide it" is very noble, but doesn't care or take into consideration how other people might interpret something. Her argument here is "As long as I _____, it shouldn't matter what others feel" which is very Fi.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
In that example, it looks like Ted is the one exercising Fe. It's like a guy hanging out with someone who was just a female friend. He avoids telling his girlfriend due to the fear that she'll take it the wrong way. Like Ted, he's thinking about how another person will see the situation.
Sally seems to be using Fi. The idea that "If you thought what you were doing was right, you wouldn't try to hide it" is very noble, but doesn't care or take into consideration how other people might interpret something. Her argument here is "As long as I _____, it shouldn't matter what others feel" which is very Fi.
Does it change anything that Sally and Ted are just friends? Ted has no obligation to tell Sally.
 

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Good point. I should have added context to my OP.

Consider this example:
Sally just found out that her friend Ted is going to Burning Man.
Sally learned from school and church that drinking and drugs are bad.
Sally ask Ted about it.
Ted says "I don't see anything wrong with drinking or drugs because I am not hurting anyone."
Sally says "If you thought what you were doing was right, then why did you try to hide it?"
Ted says "I didn't tell you about it because I know that you think it is wrong, not that I think it is wrong."

The views and opinions expressed herein are those of Ted and do not necessarily reflect the views of the author, this site or anyone commenting on this thread. :)
By the way this problem was phrased I assumed it had something to do with illegal activities. The fact that they are illegal would explain the actual reason for hiding the activity.
In this case, it has less to do with Fe and more to do with Te (right, wrong, following the rules, etc.).
What is right what is wrong?
Sometimes, the rules are right and sometimes the rules are wrong.
According to Te, the rules are right until they're changed. When individuals break the law they are wrong.
According to Ti, the rules are irrelevant because a Ti user follows his own personal rule book applicable only to himself.
 

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Good point. I should have added context to my OP.

Consider this example:
Sally just found out that her friend Ted is going to Burning Man.
Sally learned from school and church that drinking and drugs are bad.
Sally ask Ted about it.
Ted says "I don't see anything wrong with drinking or drugs because I am not hurting anyone."
Sally says "If you thought what you were doing was right, then why did you try to hide it?"
Ted says "I didn't tell you about it because I know that you think it is wrong, not that I think it is wrong."

The views and opinions expressed herein are those of Ted and do not necessarily reflect the views of the author, this site or anyone commenting on this thread. :)
No. Sally is not using Fe. She is using Fi (drugs are bad) and more probably Si+Fi because she learned it from church. Although I think I maybe stereotyping Si types there - sorry!

The person who is using Fe is Ted and Ted is probably using Ni Fe. Ted knows that Sally won't like him using drugs so he sin't going to upset her by telling her about it (he's also going to avoid a lot of hassle). Fe is about keeping things comfortable between people. He may be using Fe to avoid conflict. Or he could be using any cognitive function if he is doing it for some other reason!

However, if it's to do with legality - what marzipan said is true. If it's morals, Fi, if it's rules - Te. Fi is about staying true to your values, Fe is about compromise to avoid awkward or uncomfortable relationships (though it does not necessarily always avoid conflict). Fi will avoid conflict by making sure they are not around people they conflict with. Fe will avoid conflict by making sure compromises can be made with those they conflict with and a middle ground can be sought.
 

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Does it change anything that Sally and Ted are just friends? Ted has no obligation to tell Sally.
Nope, I don't think it matters as long as he feels obligated, for one reason or another.
Or maybe (if we don't take Ted at his word) he had no interest in inviting Sally and didn't bother asking her...so just made some excuse up on the spot when she confronted him.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I think I am starting to understand. I've been reading a lot about this stuff but sometimes it takes being told that I'm wrong about what I think I understand until I actually understand.

I thought it would be Fi because Ted was following his own moral code instead of what society thinks is right and Sally is getting her morals from society.

Let me see if I have it right now. I'll just focus on Ted to keep it simple for now.

Ted was using Ti (plus Se?) when he decided to go to Burning Man. Because of Fe (plus Ni?) he knew that most people in his community would look down on that decision because people that attend Burning Man do drugs and generally act in a way that his community doesn't approve. His Ti made him decide that he doesn't agree with his community's values so he is morally fine with going there to have that experience. Fe made him not want to deal with the reactions of people that wouldn't agree with him so he didn't tell those people.
 

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I think I am starting to understand. I've been reading a lot about this stuff but sometimes it takes being told that I'm wrong about what I think I understand until I actually understand.

I thought it would be Fi because Ted was following his own moral code instead of what society thinks is right and Sally is getting her morals from society.

Let me see if I have it right now. I'll just focus on Ted to keep it simple for now.

Ted was using Ti (plus Se?) when he decided to go to Burning Man. Because of Fe (plus Ni?) he knew that most people in his community would look down on that decision because people that attend Burning Man do drugs and generally act in a way that his community doesn't approve. His Ti made him decide that he doesn't agree with his community's values so he is morally fine with going there to have that experience. Fe made him not want to deal with the reactions of people that wouldn't agree with him so he didn't tell those people.
It could be Fe vs. Fi, Te vs. Ti, Fi vs. Ti, Ti vs. Ti, Ti vs. Fe, Te vs. Fe, etc.
In each dynamic the result would look similar on the surface but the underlying motive would be different.
Fe = social norms. Sally's social norms tell her that drugs are bad.
Fe = social norms. Ted's social norms (his friends and parents) tell him that drugs are acceptable and it doesn't hurt anyone to break the law.
Sally is most likely using an extraverted function Fe or Te. I can't say what Ted is using.
I can say Sally is most likely not using Ti.
That's all I've got.
 

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I'm not sure Fe can be thought of as social norms, although it is thought that the values are taken from the outside. It's quite difficult to say where someone's values have come from, I'd say. I tend to experience my values and morals as logical - they make sense and I can say why they are right and wrong.

I think you need to look at it in terms of how you feel about your values. I've always found it easiest to consider Fe and Fi according to how you shape your world to match your values. Fi will experience their values as being relatively black and white so will change their environment to suit - a job that matches their values, friends who share their values. Fe will change themselves to fit with their surroundings. Or rather, their values are flexible.

So say Fe says "stealing is wrong". Fe will not change it's mind on "stealing is wrong", but it will not necessarily judge a thief as an immoral person. Because the value is on the act. So people shouldn't steal, but if I have a friend that steals something, I do not automatically dislike the friend. I could be irritated with them for doing something like that, but I do not consider them to be bad for stealing - they have just done a bad thing, is all. This does point to them having different values to me, that they do not consider it to be wrong to steal, which is annoying for me because It think everybody should have the same morals. So I might be a little grumpy with them for doing it, but I would also be likely to find a middle ground. What I might tend to do, or what I have done in the past, is stay friends with a person but not have anything to do with that part of their life - I wouldn't want to be there when they steal, I don't want to hear about the stealing etc. They can keep that part to themselves and not involve me. If I'm still around it's because they're good people in many other ways and I want to be around them.

However, my brother found out a friend of mine stole things and completely changed his view of him from "good person" to "bad person" - I consider this to be Fi. Fi is more black and white. It is either/or. I judge acts but not people, or rather, I don't judge people on their acts. Fi is more likely to because Fi is based on ideals - they would prefer to be around people who fit their ideals of what is right and wrong.

It took me ages to work this part out! The "social norm" thing really threw me. If you have difficulty telling between Fe and Fi, look at Te and Ti. If you use Ti you definitely use Fe. If you use Te then you definitely use Fi. It may be easier to watch people who use the different Ts to see how their moral world is different.

EDIT: Now that I've read through what I've just written, I think you can see how the Ts are effecting the Fs in there.

Fi (my morals)/Te (the rules) - this is a little more strict and will be more adherent to their morals, see them as ideals (rules). They have a strong sense of right and wrong but will consider it important that everybody holds values close to their heart and does not just "follow the rules" (or do what other people tell you to).

Fe (society's morals)/Ti (my opinion/my logic) - Fe believes that everybody should follow the same morals in order for society to run smoothly, but the Ti means that they may judge their morals according to what those morals actually mean (they will need to understand the "why" to their morals).

As you can see - the Ts kind of balance out the Fs in these dichotomies. So Fi is saying "my individualistic morals" - but its pairing with Te is also saying "the rules". While Fe is saying "society's morals" but adding "my rules" (it must make sense to me)

So it will be different for different types.

An ENFJ is an Fe-dom with inferior Ti. So their Fe will be less balanced out than that of an INFJ. Both the ENFJ and INFJ use the same functions a different order. But the INFJ uses Ni>Fe>Ti>Se and the ENFJ uses Fe>Ni>Se>Ti. They may agree on morals and social responsibility but the ENFJ may be more steadfast.

in my personal experience - so this may be meaningless! - an ENFJ friend will say "she's late and she was out drinking last night! She shouldn't' do that!" and she will remain angry and talk about it and talk about it for a while :) I will agree - "yes, she definitely shouldn't do that, she's letting people down", but the strength of my emotions just isn't quite the same, because I'm thinking "yeah she wasn't thinking, she wouldn't do this on purpose though".

Meanwhile! I have spoken to Te/Fi types (rather than the other way round) who will say "so and so stole and thus they are a criminal and should face punishment" but have no interest in why they stole - who cares why, it's wrong. Erm...I hope that makes sense because I got a bit confused in the middle!
 

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Meanwhile! I have spoken to Te/Fi types (rather than the other way round) who will say "so and so stole and thus they are a criminal and should face punishment" but have no interest in why they stole - who cares why, it's wrong. Erm...I hope that makes sense because I got a bit confused in the middle!
As a Te-Fi user, I know why they stole. I know the solution. In the meantime, criminals cannot be left unpunished (part of the several point plan to destroy the problem that led the person to steal).
 

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As a Te-Fi user, I know why they stole. I know the solution. In the meantime, criminals cannot be left unpunished (part of the several point plan to destroy the problem that led the person to steal).
Ah, ok. This must just be how I read it when reading other people's words. But I want to understand this because punishment is something I am very blurry on and it is something I see Te users talk about a lot when they are talking about breaking morals. To me, punishment is just making sure someone is not rewarded for bad deeds and that bad deeds can only be judged as such depending on why they were committed.

How would you say it worked for you?
 

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Ah, ok. This must just be how I read it when reading other people's words. But I want to understand this because punishment is something I am very blurry on and it is something I see Te users talk about a lot when they are talking about breaking morals. To me, punishment is just making sure someone is not rewarded for bad deeds and that bad deeds can only be judged as such depending on why they were committed.

How would you say it worked for you?
The most effective way to make someone do something is with both a threat and a promise. A threat that is not carried out is an empty threat and, therefore, not effective.
To create a law that is not enforced is to devalue legitimacy in the ruling body.
The basic idea is that crime breeds crime. At the root of crime is corruption, ineffective governance, and general lack of order.
 

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The most effective way to make someone do something is with both a threat and a promise. A threat that is not carried out is an empty threat and, therefore, not effective.
To create a law that is not enforced is to devalue legitimacy in the ruling body.
Ah, ok. I'm going to steer well away from trying to explain Te! I'm afraid it's totally alien to me! There must be integrity in following the rules or they will lose their power? Is that a good way of describing it? Was I right about Fi being more black and white in morals? I find it really difficult to describe the way my Fe works so it's difficult for me to also tell how Fi works. Do you experience it as right and wrong in a quite absolute sense?
 
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