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Discussion Starter #1
I worry this thread will die faster than John Waters at a clan rally, but it's a question I'm suddenly extremely interested in. It started when I was doing some work while listening to a Quentin Tarantino interview. He said, and I'm paraphrasing, "I wondered if this was for real, or just a dream. I didn't go to film school, so I worried about not knowing all the details involved with film making. But then I realized that it wasn't my job to know those things. It was my job to have the vision and to communicate that vision to the people who knew how to do those things."

Apparently, Quentin Tarantino isn't good at making films; he's good at telling other people how to make films. But think about that. He didn't rise to the top of his industry because he is really good at film making. It happened because he has vision and can articulate it, and that's very odd to me. Vision is what seems to stand out here, but why? Is it really that rare of a thing?

It's easy for me to make the assumption that everyone has vision, just like everyone has ideas (and all of them stink), but it's only a "good" vision that matters and all others will fail to be actualized. I could be wrong. Maybe some people just aren't wired to think about possibilities or even be interested in them. And maybe few people are. That would certainly help to explain a lot of things. At every job I ever worked, as soon as I walked through the door it was pretty evident that there was no real purpose to what anyone was doing, no clear vision for what everyone was working toward. Theoretically, at most jobs, we are working to achieve nothing. Their is never a broader purpose. That seems like a point on side of rarity.

It seems to me that INTPs, and especially ENTPs, are wired to have a sense of vision in their lives, a keen interest in possibility. Many ENTPs--and to a slightly smaller but still significant extant, INTPs--who are dissatisfied with their lives, struggle to actualize their visions for whatever reasons. I have read countless posts by people on here talking about their fear of not doing anything meaningful with their lives, and the depression and angst that comes with it. Well, what does it actually mean for an INTP to do something with their life? I think it's as simple as formulating a clear vision for something you deeply care about, and working to manifest it.

tl;dr: just read the second paragraph.
 

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Not a Robot
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I agree with your post. It is worrying that many people don’t have much vision beyond what’s put right in front of them. I think that for those that do, the frustration comes in not having what Quentin Tarantino had: the connections to make his vision a reality.

It also depends on what we are talking about when we say “vision” - some take this as “visualization” and insist that they do have “vision”. Funny how so many things boil down to definitions.

Anyway, currently brain dead. Going to sleep. Will think about this more when my brain isn’t experiencing rolling blackouts.
 

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Is it really that rare of a thing?
My guess is the same as yours, it's not a rare thing, as for 'who' claim to have it.
However, finding a 'vision' that actually makes sense / fits, that must be horribly rare.
Somehow I consider it the same pattern described in Dunning-Kruger.
I think a lot of people with (an accurate or promising) vision get overshouted by the ones that claim to have (a good) one.
My guess would be as it is for most things, we are living the average, and sometimes, one of the rarer kind gets zoomed in upon, or makes things worse. We only get to see the exceptions.
 

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Tarentino is like a one of a kind professional football coach. Not the skill to do his part on the field, but the skill (or vision) to see how everyone else should do it to optimize the play. He simply just knows the meta in and out. Not that I'm a big fan of his movies or anything, but I recognize his talent.

And I guess that's what it's gonna take. Anyone with a decent imagination can have a "vision", and you need to walk the extra mile to make it a reality, but in the end, you need to have a real talent to be able to stand out among the rest of the trash.

Is talent rare? Pretty much, yeah.
 

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I think that for those that do, the frustration comes in not having what Quentin Tarantino had: the connections to make his vision a reality.
Except it doesn't work that way for ENTPs. They always know a guy who knows a gal who knows a guy. And they aren't afraid to ask. So even if they are not connected, they can get connected. This is why ENTPs should be illegal or exiled to their own continent the better to kill one another or something.

However, they're more concerned with doing than having, so they don't hog the resources. And if you know one, and she believes in your project, she'd like nothing better than to hook you up with her primo connections (it makes her look even better). So I guess they can stay.

Spooky, I think there is a difference between having a vision and sharing a vision. To some people, the former is more important, and to some, the latter, in terms of "success."
 

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Not a Robot
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Tarentino is like a one of a kind professional football coach. Not the skill to do his part on the field, but the skill (or vision) to see how everyone else should do it to optimize the play. He simply just knows the meta in and out.
This reminds me of a show I went to see at the orchestra a few years ago. There was a visiting conductor playing the New World symphony. That's where I realized just how much a good conductor can make or break the music. It was rushed and every single break in the first three sections was filled with trills and other pointless embellishments. In the fourth movement, he took all of the deleted breaks from the first three and inserted them at awkward moments.

I'm sure the guy really thought he had "vision" but it turned out to be a sloppy, incoherent mess.

@Eryngo funny you should mention that. At my last job (still feels weird saying that) I really enjoyed giving people the tools, connections, or knowledge that they needed to get to the next level and resource hoarding was one of the biggest things I would gripe about.

Sometimes, you can be the one having the vision, other times, you can be the one helping someone else bring theirs to fruition. There's joy to be had in both.
 

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I think having a vision is very common. I think having a good, well-thought out vision is less common. I think having multiple good visions is pretty rare. I think having vision and being able to properly communicate this vision to others is even rarer. I think having vision, being able to communicate it to others and finding others willing to realize your vision is extremely rare.

Except it doesn't work that way for ENTPs. They always know a guy who knows a gal who knows a guy. And they aren't afraid to ask. So even if they are not connected, they can get connected. This is why ENTPs should be illegal or exiled to their own continent the better to kill one another or something.

However, they're more concerned with doing than having, so they don't hog the resources. And if you know one, and she believes in your project, she'd like nothing better than to hook you up with her primo connections (it makes her look even better). So I guess they can stay.
Not only do they probably already have the connections or make them if necessary, they can make people excited for things they would have never been excited about without the ENTP. They make people want to be a part of whatever it is the ENTP is doing.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
After reading everyone's views, my brain seems to be an inarticulate swirling mess, so hopefully that stops soon. I think @s2theizay brings up a good point about vision not being well defined. It seems most commonly identified as grandiose, not to mention actionable in nature (but lets be honest, one's vision is often inspiring, but no one is inspired by an action plan). We see "true" vision in statements like, "A computer on every desk and in every home" (Bill Gates, 1980) or perhaps, "I would like to die on mars, just not on impact" (Elon Musk, 2013). I argue that vision isn't always bold and overly ambitious though. Sometimes it's, "I want to have a family and not fuck up my kids." Or, "I want to build a garden outside my apartment building for everyone to enjoy."

If everyone is on board with the idea that vision doesn't have to involve an immense undertaking, then doesn't it seem strange that it's not more common? Some more unsatisfying anecdotal evidence: I don't know about other people, but I can't count how many times I've met someone who seemed literally amazed at my ability to generate ideas. If I knew any of these people now I would study them to find out if they are incapable of creative thinking or if they just never put the effort in. People also seem to be both baffled and fascinated by my many projects. These have more to do with creativity than vision, but if creative thinking is something that many people struggle with while others do it naturally, than can we conclude that vision is similar? Actually, they're sorta the same thing. Personally, it's not that hard for me to imagine people who can't remove themselves from the present long enough to consider the future, nor is it hard for me to imagine people who struggle to connect dots in a way that's needed to imagine possibilities. I don't think you need to be a super-genius to do either of these things.

But shit, I just remembered hearing that in order to succeed at any job, you'd need an I.Q. of 118. That doesn't sound too bad to me. I figured that's probably about 30-40% of the population. Nope, it's the 87th percentile, so 13% of the population. We also know that intelligence and creativity are strongly linked, so if we assume creativity is required to have vision (I mean, for real, they're the same thing!) than vision is in fact rare and I guess you do have to be a bit of a genius.

Ambifocused vision is rare. This is why you see the big picture yet still walk into sign posts.
Honestly, I've convinced a certain ISTJ to help me look out for those sign posts. Hopefully it will be a mutually beneficial partnership.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
It's not about having vision, it's about having money and/or connections.
I'm not sure I agree completely. My sister's bf was given a few million to start a business. It went under and all that money was lost. The money possessed by the super-rich lasts on average three generations. You can have all the money in the world, but that doesn't mean you know how to generate more value with it. It doesn't mean you'll know how to hold on to it either. Some people might say that money is just an excuse and then cite one of the many successful companies that were started with little initial investment.

But yeah, connections certainly don't hurt.
 

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It's easy for me to make the assumption that everyone has vision, just like everyone has ideas (and all of them stink), but it's only a "good" vision that matters and all others will fail to be actualized.
Judged by the standard of hindsight. If you say A when everyone says B, are you a visionary or a nutcase?

You could just as well argue that someone had a vision because it became true, not that it became true because he had a vision. So, who knows? Maybe it's the whole package -- the vision, the drive, the skill, the luck, how many people are exactly at the right place at exactly the right time with exactly the right tools? That's gotta be rare -- but I'm inclined to go with
Funny how so many things boil down to definitions.
That's always a good answer :3
 

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I saw a brief video that showed a professor describing the way the heirarchical management scheme works in a capitalist society, and at one point in the video he made this one gesture that kind of looked like he was pulling down cobwebs with his fingers to describe how real progress works. It suggested it tends to be when there is this unarticulated idea floating around in a lot of peoples minds simultaneously and finally there comes along this 1 guy to actually communicate it explicitly, and suddenly in everyone the lightbulb triggers.

I think the kind of vision that tends to be more valuable is this kind of vision... but then the actualization of the vision itself can be a problem. In the case of the sister's bf of the OP I can't say whether what failed was due to a lack of vision or a lack of implementation of the vision... in the case of Tarantino this didn't seem to need to be an issue, which is nice. Perhaps it would be a good idea for more visionaries to explore the movie business for this reason.

But then there is the case of Bladerunner 2049 - it was SOOOOOOO goooooood..... but performed badly at the box office? Maybe we should be careful to define good vision by "success", because a lot of the best that is visionary will take time for the world to come to grips with it.
 

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Maybe we should be careful to define good vision by "success", because a lot of the best that is visionary will take time for the world to come to grips with it.
Good point. A lot of people that we currently call "visionaries" were laughed at during their time. We say they were ahead of their time. It would really suck to actually have an amazing idea that really works, only for a bunch of idiots to lack appreciation for it.
 

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I'm not sure I agree completely. My sister's bf was given a few million to start a business. It went under and all that money was lost. The money possessed by the super-rich lasts on average three generations. You can have all the money in the world, but that doesn't mean you know how to generate more value with it. It doesn't mean you'll know how to hold on to it either. Some people might say that money is just an excuse and then cite one of the many successful companies that were started with little initial investment.

But yeah, connections certainly don't hurt.
I'm not talking business in general. I'm talking about movies in particular.
 

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But then there is the case of Bladerunner 2049 - it was SOOOOOOO goooooood.....
That is actually quite debatable. Compared to last two sci-fi series with similar setting one way or another I wasn't that impressed. It actually makes me wonder why is it so highly rated.

If you are interested in discussing it, PM me.
 
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