[Namaste]

Okay so I have few friends who are ISFJs and I am having trouble dealing with them sometimes. I noticed that one in particular likes to gossip A LOT about people who I don't know and about people I will never know, yet she still tells me all her drama as if I actually care, but I know that if I said that I didn't care it would be socially unacceptable to her and she would get mad at me. Another thing: Some of the ISFJs I know get annoyed at people who tag a long if they weren't 'invited'. I also noticed that she intentionally doesn't invite me to outings sometimes that I would normally be invited to (this is a recent thing, she used to not go anywhere without me). The only thing I can assume from this is that she wants to talk about me. I don't know what I did, the only thing I can think of is that I don't care enough about my appearance for her- she is really into clothes and fashion, My style is way more laid back and somewhat careless- but that doesn't seem fair for someone to talk about that behind someone's back.... anyways, it doesn't matter what it is. I am tired of this drama/gossip/talking behind my back crap and I want to end the friendship if this is going to continue. I know ISFJs who have done this to me and to other people I know: they would pretend to be their friend to someone's face and then talk crap about the the second they left the room. I see a pattern. What is it with SFJs and gossip? Why does this happen?

Also, recently she has been saying mean, rude, hurtful things to me but in a 'joking' manner (which she never used to do). I can't tell if she really is joking or if she is disguising the truth, but joking or truth, it usually hurts.

 

[Trigun64]

One, you should not jump to conclusions. People gossip, it is not a reflection on ISFJ's, there just happens to be more SFJ's out there.

It seems like your friend was trying to connect with you, sharing her problems. You rejected this, diminishing her problems and hurting her, and at the same time casting judgment upon her. This probably hurt her, and has lead to her recent actions. You should probably talk with her. Sit down and have a chat. Share some things with her. Try to get to the bottom of the conflict in between you two, while being respectful and polite, even if she is not. You were probably her source of venting, and since you dismissed her confiding in you, she is becoming pent up, and thus lashing out at others.

Respect, Trust, Patience: It will see you through most situations.

 

[Staryu]

Okay so I have few friends who are ISFJs and I am having trouble dealing with them sometimes. I noticed that one in particular likes to gossip A LOT about people who I don't know and about people I will never know, yet she still tells me all her drama as if I actually care, but I know that if I said that I didn't care it would be socially unacceptable to her and she would get mad at me. Another thing: Some of the ISFJs I know get annoyed at people who tag a long if they weren't 'invited'. I also noticed that she intentionally doesn't invite me to outings sometimes that I would normally be invited to (this is a recent thing, she used to not go anywhere without me). The only thing I can assume from this is that she wants to talk about me. I don't know what I did, the only thing I can think of is that I don't care enough about my appearance for her- she is really into clothes and fashion, My style is way more laid back and somewhat careless- but that doesn't seem fair for someone to talk about that behind someone's back.... anyways, it doesn't matter what it is. I am tired of this drama/gossip/talking behind my back crap and I want to end the friendship if this is going to continue. I know ISFJs who have done this to me and to other people I know: they would pretend to be their friend to someone's face and then talk crap about the the second they left the room. I see a pattern. What is it with SFJs and gossip? Why does this happen?

Also, recently she has been saying mean, rude, hurtful things to me but in a 'joking' manner (which she never used to do). I can't tell if she really is joking or if she is disguising the truth, but joking or truth, it usually hurts.

well i guess the gossip may have something to do with Si+Fe..esfjs do this too, but it is Fe+Si. this is just a BS observation, but it may help understand why...
I'd just confront her and tell her that you wish she would respect your differences and stop saying hurtful things, and that if she honestly does not like you she should let you know.

 

[Namaste]

How would I have hurt her? I always listen to her and console her when she is babbling on about her co-workers I will never meet.

 

[teddy564339]

Okay so I have few friends who are ISFJs and I am having trouble dealing with them sometimes. I noticed that one in particular likes to gossip A LOT about people who I don't know and about people I will never know, yet she still tells me all her drama as if I actually care, but I know that if I said that I didn't care it would be socially unacceptable to her and she would get mad at me. Another thing: Some of the ISFJs I know get annoyed at people who tag a long if they weren't 'invited'. I also noticed that she intentionally doesn't invite me to outings sometimes that I would normally be invited to (this is a recent thing, she used to not go anywhere without me). The only thing I can assume from this is that she wants to talk about me. I don't know what I did, the only thing I can think of is that I don't care enough about my appearance for her- she is really into clothes and fashion, My style is way more laid back and somewhat careless- but that doesn't seem fair for someone to talk about that behind someone's back.... anyways, it doesn't matter what it is. I am tired of this drama/gossip/talking behind my back crap and I want to end the friendship if this is going to continue. I know ISFJs who have done this to me and to other people I know: they would pretend to be their friend to someone's face and then talk crap about the the second they left the room. I see a pattern. What is it with SFJs and gossip? Why does this happen?

This came up a little bit in this thread (about halfway down, starting with the post by the member SoulSauce:

http://personalitycafe.com/esfj-forum-caregivers/19334-differences-between-isfj-esfj.html

So it appears that it's possible to pop up among ISFJ's, whether we deem to be "unhealthy" or whatever you want to call them. I don't know any other ISFJ's in real life, only myself and ones I've talked to on PerC. Based on my experience, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a trademark of an ISFJ, but it looks like it's certainly possible to pop up.


I can explain part of it, I think, and that's a negative attribute of Fe. One could even call it social cowardice...it's the inability to hurt other people's feelings or create conflict. I know that it's big with me, I get really uncomfortable in conflict situations and do everything I can to avoid them.

So it's possible for an ISFJ to have a lot of pent up frustrations and thoughts about someone, but not feel comfortable telling that person because they don't want a negative reaction. An ISFJ likes to be liked by everyone and appear to be perfect. But, if they harbor these negative thoughts, they either have to bury them inside or....tell someone else.

So that's where the gossip comes from, I believe.

For me, I've actually been guilty of doing this myself sometimes...it's not really gossip, exactly, but it was talking about someone behind their back. It happens at my job amongst me and my coworkers...we'll talk about other coworkers outside of our group of friends. Though in my cases, I'm not the one starting it usually, I'll just go along with it and contribute. So in that regard, it's not a type thing...there are people of other types who start it. However, we're all still essentially guilty of doing the same thing...we don't want to be rude to someone's face, but we're all thinking the same thoughts and sometimes they come out. In our case, it's about someone outside of our group, and its' usually either really annoying behavior or aren't doing a good job with things we believe they should.

It's kind of our way to blow off steam, especially because we're so stressed out so often. I'm not excusing our behavior or saying it's right, I'm just saying that we're human, and to be honest, we don't really mean anything serious by it.


But here's the other difference in our situation compared to yours: No one in our group has ever said they had a problem with it, and we don't talk about ourselves behind each others' backs. If anyone in our group ever objected to it, I know I immediately would stop and wouldn't say anything anymore.




So I think in your case, you should just be blunt with these ISFJ's and say that you don't want to hear them gossip. You can say you find it offensive or inappropriate in your situation, and that you have a problem with it. If they are ISFJ and aren't messed up, they'll adhere to your wishes. If they don't, then they're probably not worth your time anyway, they're just rude and obnoxious people. If an ISFJ doesn't care about someone else, then something's probably wrong with them and they probably have their own personal issues.


So that's all I can say...I really think it goes beyond type. If someone doesn't respect your wish to not gossip in your presence, then really there's no reason to think of them as a friend or spend any time with them. That's just common decency and it applies to anyone, regardless of type.

Also, recently she has been saying mean, rude, hurtful things to me but in a 'joking' manner (which she never used to do). I can't tell if she really is joking or if she is disguising the truth, but joking or truth, it usually hurts.

Same as what I said before...ISFJ's are usually very sensitive about avoiding hurting other people's feelings, so if you're honest about ti and she doesn't care, then either (a) she's not ISFJ, or (b) she probably has some deep person issues that are messing her up. Usually ISFJ's are the ones who are sensitive to being teased and get hurt by other people's jokes, particularly NT's who don't find them to be offensive or hurtful. If she's doing this and doesn't care about your feelings, then there's probably something deeply wrong with her, and like I said before, if she doesn't care about you enough to take your feelings into consideration, then you don't need her as a friend anyway, no matter what type she is.

My best friend is an INTJ and has a very biting sense of humor where he teases me a lot, but if I ever told him that something he said hurt me, he would immediately apologize and never say it again. If an INTJ can do that, then an ISFJ sure as hell should be able to.

 

[Trigun64]

How would I have hurt her? I always listen to her and console her when she is babbling on about her co-workers I will never meet.

But you do not take it seriously at all. You refer to her as "babbling". Yeah, you listened and tried to console her in your own way, which is good, however were you respectful while listening to her? Or were you more worried about when she would stop talking? Do you see how your actions can be taken offensively? ISFJ's can pick up on things, and especially when it comes to how people view them. You may even been really respectful in what you see as respectful, but it may have come off harsh and over bearing to her, or even possibly cold.

 

[Namaste]

Thank you teddy. And I wasn't trying to accuse all ISFJs of being gossipers so I am sorry about that, I just know a lot who are really big ones. I guess I was just hurt because a few things happened today and I wanted to let it out here. I will read the ISFJ/ESFJ thread because I notice the same thing in a lot of ESFJs as well. Thank you.


I also agree with you about the appearing 'perfect'. Some of the ISFJs I know come across as thinking that their social actions are perfect and without blame, but it frustrates me because they think that way but then they talk about others behind their backs which is, in my opinion, one of the worst social acts someone can commit. Maybe I will just back off for a little while and let us both cool off and then see what happens from there.

 

[Namaste]

But you do not take it seriously at all. You refer to her as "babbling". Yeah, you listened and tried to console her in your own way, which is good, however were you respectful while listening to her? Or were you more worried about when she would stop talking? Do you see how your actions can be taken offensively? ISFJ's can pick up on things, and especially when it comes to how people view them. You may even been really respectful in what you see as respectful, but it may have come off harsh and over bearing to her, or even possibly cold.

yes I was respectful. You are taking this personally. I am not attacking ISFJs, I am complaining about my one friend who happens to be an ISFJ and I am looking for understanding.

 

[Trigun64]

yes I was respectful. You are taking this personally. I am not attacking ISFJs, I am complaining about my one friend who happens to be an ISFJ and I am looking for understanding.

I am not taking this personally. Misconceptions though need to be nipped in the bud, or they are almost impossible to deal with.

It does not matter what type someone is for them to gossip. Gossip generally comes from being hurt. All humans have the capacity for their feelings to be hurt. We then act upon these hurt feeling in ways that can be detrimental.

Yes, you may see your friend's actions as gossip, and you are very much opposed to gossip. However, your friend probably puts up with a lot, and is confiding in her friend what she does not want to let out, cause she knows it will hurt others.

We have to see things from other people's perspective. Could it not be considered, you coming here and talking about your friend, gossip? But no, its you, venting about a frustrated situation in which your feelings have been hurt. Do you see what I am talking about?

One of my favorite passages in the bible is Galatians 5:15 "If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." We so often get caught up in this person hurt me, so I get aggravated and end up hurting them, and so they get bitter and lash out hurting me, and so on and so forth. You have to be willing to break the cycle. Yes, its hard, when your feelings have been hurt, to talk with the one who is hurting your feelings, especially if they are still biting, but we have to be willing to put our hurt feelings aside, and put them in proper perspective.

Giving some time to cool down is probably good to do, but communication is quintessential to any relationship.

 

[teddy564339]

But you do not take it seriously at all. You refer to her as "babbling". Yeah, you listened and tried to console her in your own way, which is good, however were you respectful while listening to her? Or were you more worried about when she would stop talking? Do you see how your actions can be taken offensively? ISFJ's can pick up on things, and especially when it comes to how people view them. You may even been really respectful in what you see as respectful, but it may have come off harsh and over bearing to her, or even possibly cold.

yes I was respectful. You are taking this personally. I am not attacking ISFJs, I am complaining about my one friend who happens to be an ISFJ and I am looking for understanding.

I think what's happening here is this: Your description of the behavior of this ISFJ isn't typical of how most ISFJ's are, based on what's been written in books, by the ISFJ's on PerC, and by a lot of stories people have told about ISFJ's on PerC. Because of that, Trigun, who understands ISFJ's better than just about any of us, is trying to figure out why an ISFJ would act in such a way. Because it's so atypical, I think he's gotten the impression that it may have been something that you did, especially because like any story on PerC, we only get to hear your side of it, not hers.


This is why we all must be careful when talking about any type situation on PerC, because (a) we may have mistyped that person, (b) not all people of a type are the same, and (c) we only get to hear part of the story. This came up in a thread a while back:

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/29671-one-problem-mbti-forum-dedicated.html

And I've been known to be guilty of it myself. So we all need to keep this in mind.


What I will say to kind of resolve this a little is: Namaste, I don't think Trigun was trying to accuse you of anything or deny your own feelings, he was just trying to get to the bottom of her behavior because it's at least somewhat atypical of ISFJ's. To Trigun, I'll say again...not all ISFJ's are the same, there are bad/unhealthy people of every type, and like I said in my last post, this ISFJ girl may have other issues that she needs to deal with that aren't related to type.


So I think we all need to keep this in mind when discussing a somewhat sensitive subject like this one.

 

[Trigun64]

What I will say to kind of resolve this a little is: Namaste, I don't think Trigun was trying to accuse you of anything or deny your own feelings, he was just trying to get to the bottom of her behavior because it's at least somewhat atypical of ISFJ's. To Trigun, I'll say again...not all ISFJ's are the same, there are bad/unhealthy people of every type, and like I said in my last post, this ISFJ girl may have other issues that she needs to deal with that aren't related to type.


So I think we all need to keep this in mind when discussing a somewhat sensitive subject like this one.

Sorry, I have a tendency that when someone is seeking solace, to just try to just fix the problem to make them feel better, but this comes off more as being cold are argumentative. I also am very adamant about stopping misconceptions from forming, because I have seen what they do to people. My actions are very awkward for a Feeler, so I apologize, Namaste.

 

[Narrator]

Just my two cents and experience as an ISFJ.

I think this is a matter of health and depends on the ISFJ. I've been brought up with a strict policy of being honest, as opposed to two faced, however I am guilty of being passive agressive, I would guess different ISFJs connect, relate, emote in different ways. Perhaps it's to do with how they're brought up, and made up as an ISFJ - stronger Si and they'll possibly be more likely to hold grudges, more Fe and they'll be more vulnerable to Feish dynamics and so forth. This is simplifying things down rather alot, but you get what I mean?

Apart from anything I'd feel too guilty about not being honest - if it were me: How would I feel if I heard someone talking about me behind my back? Also I never know where a person has come from; I think it's an ugly trait to make quick judgements and act upon them (In such a negative context), and I'm too scared of future concequences to do something so underhanded.

As a 6w7 ISFJ, I'd call us more guilt ridden catholics - needing to be a good person under threat or paranoia of punisment or rejection by certain people in our lives, or a sentiment of fear, low self-esteem and fatalism, but also a slight victim complex, than two faced social babblers, but again, I suppose it depends on the ISFJ.


Hmm, just a thought, if she's socially underconfident it could be the one way she feels she can connect with you. I know I get frustrated that I don't know how to connect and feel secure in that connection with other new people past babbling about the first thing that comes to mind.

Maybe tell her you don't like that she switches, or don't feel like you know whether to trust her when she acts in such a manner.


I think this is one concentrated image of SFJs, the one ESFJ friend I have has never bitched about a friend to me. Any talk of others has been out of concern, reliving and processing situations, or care and amusement.

 

[Namaste]

Sorry, I have a tendency that when someone is seeking solace, to just try to just fix the problem to make them feel better, but this comes off more as being cold are argumentative. I also am very adamant about stopping misconceptions from forming, because I have seen what they do to people. My actions are very awkward for a Feeler, so I apologize, Namaste.

No worries, my apologies as well.

 

[Namaste]

Just my two cents and experience as an ISFJ.

I think this is a matter of health and depends on the ISFJ. I've been brought up with a strict policy of being honest, as opposed to two faced, however I am guilty of being passive agressive, I would guess different ISFJs connect, relate, emote in different ways. Perhaps it's to do with how they're brought up, and made up as an ISFJ - stronger Si and they'll possibly be more likely to hold grudges, more Fe and they'll be more vulnerable to Feish dynamics and so forth. This is simplifying things down rather alot, but you get what I mean?

Apart from anything I'd feel too guilty about not being honest - if it were me: How would I feel if I heard someone talking about me behind my back? Also I never know where a person has come from; I think it's an ugly trait to make quick judgements and act upon them (In such a negative context), and I'm too scared of future concequences to do something so underhanded.

As a 6w7 ISFJ, I'd call us more guilt ridden catholics - needing to be a good person under threat or paranoia of punisment or rejection by certain people in our lives, or a sentiment of fear, low self-esteem and fatalism, but also a slight victim complex, than two faced social babblers, but again, I suppose it depends on the ISFJ.


Hmm, just a thought, if she's socially underconfident it could be the one way she feels she can connect with you. I know I get frustrated that I don't know how to connect and feel secure in that connection with other new people past babbling about the first thing that comes to mind.

Maybe tell her you don't like that she switches, or don't feel like you know whether to trust her when she acts in such a manner.


I think this is one concentrated image of SFJs, the one ESFJ friend I have has never bitched about a friend to me. Any talk of others has been out of concern, reliving and processing situations, or care and amusement.

Thank you Liminality. My only hesitation about confronting her is that I used to have another ISFJ best friend (who was almost the exact same way as this girl) and when I confronted her about hurting me she acted like she didn't do anything wrong, came up with excuses for her behavior, and didn't even apologize. We aren't friends anymore for the pile up behavior that was characteristic of this... I guess this is my past experiences 'Si' at work.

 

[pinkrasputin]

My sister is a gossip and an ISFJ and so is my mom. It scares me to hear how harshly they judge people. I feel so uncomfortable around them. I know when I leave, I will also be judged. It has given me a condition all my life.

I've had to learn to be direct and approach people who upset me. I wish my mom and my sister would take assertive training classes. Or read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" a couple of thousands of times. It is not okay for them to have this kind of passive behavior and gossip. Especially when I see them being nice to those people they just gossiped about. It makes me not trust them. It's not good for them and it's never been good for me.

Their gossip also backfires. When they realize how harshly they've judged others, and then they are faced in a similar scenario as those they've judged, their whole world comes crashing down around them. They are now forced to judge themselves harshly.

When that happens, I can help them out of their stupor and help them gain self acceptance. But instead of using that self acceptance to see the world differently and empathize with others, they quickly return to judging others and gossiping again.

They need to think more "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

 

[ENTrePenuer]

One, you should not jump to conclusions. People gossip, it is not a reflection on ISFJ's, there just happens to be more SFJ's out there.

It seems like your friend was trying to connect with you, sharing her problems. You rejected this, diminishing her problems and hurting her, and at the same time casting judgment upon her. This probably hurt her, and has lead to her recent actions. You should probably talk with her. Sit down and have a chat. Share some things with her. Try to get to the bottom of the conflict in between you two, while being respectful and polite, even if she is not. You were probably her source of venting, and since you dismissed her confiding in you, she is becoming pent up, and thus lashing out at others.

Respect, Trust, Patience: It will see you through most situations.

BS,

SFJ's gossip bigtime.

At least the ESFJ's have decency to tell you how they feel about you to your face.

 

[Staryu]

My sister is a gossip and an ISFJ and so is my mom. It scares me to hear how harshly they judge people. I feel so uncomfortable around them. I know when I leave, I will also be judged. It has given me a condition all my life.

I've had to learn to be direct and approach people who upset me. I wish my mom and my sister would take assertive training classes. Or read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" a couple of thousands of times. It is not okay for them to have this kind of passive behavior and gossip. Especially when I see them being nice to those people they just gossiped about. It makes me not trust them. It's not good for them and it's never been good for me.

Their gossip also backfires. When they realize how harshly they've judged others, and then they are faced in a similar scenario as those they've judged, their whole world comes crashing down around them. They are now forced to judge themselves harshly.

When that happens, I can help them out of their stupor and help them gain self acceptance. But instead of using that self acceptance to see the world differently and empathize with others, they quickly return to judging others and gossiping again.

They need to think more "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

Is it tru that being judgmental is an SFJ trait, just as being arrogant is an NT trait[ if unbalanced]?
I think that all types can judge, I mean for me I usually don't care as long as you're tolerant and nice to me, I don't care about your social standing, what you like or don't like, your morals etc etc..any of that. I just like people who are accepting and "nice"..if "nice" is actually a quality. I think I may have judged people in the past when I was feeling insecure but somewhere along the way I lost interest and didn't care. My judgment is more towards the way "things should be", if that makes any sense.
I think everyone has been guilty of judging people, I do believe that some types may be more *inclined* to do so than others.
Well my roommate said once that if she didn't like someone she was nice to their face because she didn't want to hurt their feelings but she'd still talk to her friends about the person. For me I couldn't be bothered..I don't have time to waste on people [arrogant much, anyone? :crazy::crazy:]
Honestly..can't we all just get along? Why do people feel the need to make someone "correct"? I think we're all fine just the way we are..& I couldn't be bothered:crazy:

 

[Trigun64]

BS,

SFJ's gossip bigtime.

At least the ESFJ's have decency to tell you how they feel about you to your face.

No offense, but this is a grossly bias statement based on misconceptions and a lack of understanding.

Gossip has nothing to do with type. I have a group of NF friends, and there main problem is gossip. Gossip is a human problem. Like Liminality said, its about how you were raised. No one is perfect either.

We are so quick to judge people, and too often people do not even realize they are judging people that they see as judgmental. We have to realize the motivations behind our actions, and take a step back, and look at it from other peoples view. Once we have stepped beyond our own frame and out of the box, we can then see objectively.

 

[Staryu]

No offense, but this is a grossly bias statement based on misconceptions and a lack of understanding.

Gossip has nothing to do with type. I have a group of NF friends, and there main problem is gossip. Gossip is a human problem. Like Liminality said, its about how you were raised. No one is perfect either.

We are so quick to judge people, and too often people do not even realize they are judging people that they see as judgmental. We have to realize the motivations behind our actions, and take a step back, and look at it from other peoples view. Once we have stepped beyond our own frame and out of the box, we can then see objectively.

well done.
gossip is a ..human problem? but that kind of sounds like saying "humans are social animals.."..just trying to avoid generalizations here.
but you are absolutely right in the fact that anyone can gossip. i wouldn't say it's about how u were raised tho..it's more about what ur attitudes and beliefs of things are.
exactly! when u call someone "judgmental" you are judging them! the logic has been proven:laughing:
way to go, being objective is hard for many people, but it's a great ideal to strive towards.

 

[ENTrePenuer]

No offense, but this is a grossly bias statement based on misconceptions and a lack of understanding.

Gossip has nothing to do with type. I have a group of NF friends, and there main problem is gossip. Gossip is a human problem. Like Liminality said, its about how you were raised. No one is perfect either.

We are so quick to judge people, and too often people do not even realize they are judging people that they see as judgmental. We have to realize the motivations behind our actions, and take a step back, and look at it from other peoples view. Once we have stepped beyond our own frame and out of the box, we can then see objectively.

I'm objectively stating that isfj are gossipers %97 of the time.

This does not exclude other types, it addresses your type.

We are talking about isfj's right?