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Any ISTJs here with type 4 Enneagram? I think most are 6, 5, 1 (or some combination of the sort). What are you like? How would you describe yourself? Do you think type 4 contradicts MBTI theory of how ISTJs tend to be like?
 

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I'd say it makes sense. Perhaps many INFP and ENFPs on here are actually ISTJ 4s. I suspect I might be one.

These Si doms probably have not "achieved" a whole lot in their life (meaning Te sees everyone else getting better grades than them, having more friends, more popular, a better love life, etc. Aka objective measures of achievement), and this leads to a weird spot where ISTJs first try to figure out, via Te, how to achieve like everyone else, but because of their Si and past negative experiences they develop anxiety in any unfamiliar situation (inferior Ne), therefore stifling creativity and growth in these areas. Only in few cases in the ISTJs life have they felt 100% okay in their Si and Te, and therefore were able to utilize their Fi and Ne. These were probably some of the moments where ISTJs considered that perhaps they're "different" from everyone else, that they're not meant to achieve like others, but still their natural instinct is to desire the objective achievement. So they figure perhaps a more creative career is what they truly desire, but they're not sure if they're realllyyy good enough because they've read some amazing books or seen some incredibly art, and they are in awe of what the person made and how much attention they received because of it. What if they end up as a starving artist? That's a big no no, and against the very nature of the ISTJ. So they're back and forth between choosing conventional, secure and money-making careers which may not excite them as much, and careers which earn less and they're not even sure if they're good enough for in the first place, blah blah-> enneagram 4, 6, 9, you name it. The "I'm special and have great potential...I think? Maybe not? I dunno man :( " type.

At least this is my 2 cents. In other words, my life. XD
 

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Wow, I can relate to a lot of what you described, which actually made me feel like it was coming from personal experience even before I got to the last sentence. It just felt like you were speaking from somewhere deep down inside instead of rephrasing and explaining something you read from an external source, which in turn makes it more reassuring, somehow. I am also someone that is seriously considering if I only think I am INFP, because of my idealistic Enneagram 4 tendencies making my behavior seem INFP like.

The part below that you wrote really stuck out to me.

ISTJs first try to figure out, via Te, how to achieve like everyone else, but because of their Si and past negative experiences they develop anxiety in any unfamiliar situation (inferior Ne), therefore stifling creativity and growth in these areas. Only in few cases in the ISTJs life have they felt 100% okay in their Si and Te, and therefore were able to utilize their Fi and Ne. These were probably some of the moments where ISTJs considered that perhaps they're "different" from everyone else, that they're not meant to achieve like others, but still their natural instinct is to desire the objective achievement.
In a way, I'm kind of trying to "sub-type" the ISTJ with Enneagram types directly relating to these sub-types. This specific sub-type that we are talking about is the ISTJ, Enneagram 4 type, which is reliable, likes security and trusts personal experience like your typical ISTJ, but they also happen to possess uncommon type 4 tendencies such as wanting what they admire in others but don't actually act on it to make it happen (for some reasons, such as the ones you listed), and they are constantly searching for their identity - which can really look like they are high in Fi, because the focus is so much on how they personally see something.

I'm not sure if true INFPs utilize Ne in such a negative way frequently (seeing all the negative possibilities instead of the positive ones). Afterall, it is their aux function so they should be quite natural at using it positively, if they want to achieve happiness, which is what people normally desire. To put it into perspective for ISTJs, imagine using your Te to always find arguments to start and state some unimportant facts just to win, instead of using it to efficiently organize your life's events and meet your goals. That's what I am trying to explain in being able to use your aux function quite naturally, if you really possess it in that position.

So yes, I do have the same question as you. Are many INFPs on here mistyped ISTJs with type 4 enneagram? It would be extremely interesting and helpful if any others that identify with INFP/ISTJ can include their input regarding this.
 

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In a way, I'm kind of trying to "sub-type" the ISTJ with Enneagram types directly relating to these sub-types. This specific sub-type that we are talking about is the ISTJ, Enneagram 4 type, which is reliable, likes security and trusts personal experience like your typical ISTJ, but they also happen to possess uncommon type 4 tendencies such as wanting what they admire in others but don't actually act on it to make it happen (for some reasons, such as the ones you listed), and they are constantly searching for their identity - which can really look like they are high in Fi, because the focus is so much on how they personally see something.

I'm not sure if true INFPs utilize Ne in such a negative way frequently (seeing all the negative possibilities instead of the positive ones). Afterall, it is their aux function so they should be quite natural at using it positively, if they want to achieve happiness, which is what people normally desire. To put it into perspective for ISTJs, imagine using your Te to always find arguments to start and state some unimportant facts just to win, instead of using it to efficiently organize your life's events and meet your goals. That's what I am trying to explain in being able to use your aux function quite naturally, if you really possess it in that position.

So yes, I do have the same question as you. Are many INFPs on here mistyped ISTJs with type 4 enneagram? It would be extremely interesting and helpful if any others that identify with INFP/ISTJ can include their input regarding this.
That's probably the main thing which leads me to my next point.
There's a chance that many NPs on here, particularly ones who are depressed, are actually SJs (though they REALLY don't want to admit it due to the shitty online descriptions). SJs can seem just as intelligent and forthknowing as NPs especially if they are experts in a certain field. Knowing all these details about something their interested in helps them develop their intuitive sense in that field. And probably lots of depressed people read thoroughly about the humanities, so they're actually able to get an intuitive sense about other people as well.


It's also possible sure the other way around is possible too: There are people who believe they're SJs but their real and in-born traits are like the NPs. Si can really hit people hard especially if they have a traumatic past, so they learn to not trust themselves or their own intuitions. Although, I think the first is more true than this hypothesis due to the sheer number of SJs statistically over NPs in existence. I think NPs naturally are very confident in themselves (too overconfident perhaps, and SJs are folks who aren't confident enough) because their intuitive sense is strong enough to predict possibilities, so they don't live in a cloud of uncertainty unlike the SJs.

Question- have you ever read the Catcher in the Rye?
 

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Think I know ESTJ who is 4.
I don't see any contradiction tbh. Enneagram motivations form a perspective to asses someone's type that is very different from the MBTI basis. They are simply two different things.
4 fix seem to be quite common, at least. I have it in my tritype as well.
 

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That's probably the main thing which leads me to my next point.
There's a chance that many NPs on here, particularly ones who are depressed, are actually SJs (though they REALLY don't want to admit it due to the shitty online descriptions). SJs can seem just as intelligent and forthknowing as NPs especially if they are experts in a certain field. Knowing all these details about something their interested in helps them develop their intuitive sense in that field. And probably lots of depressed people read thoroughly about the humanities, so they're actually able to get an intuitive sense about other people as well.


It's also possible sure the other way around is possible too: There are people who believe they're SJs but their real and in-born traits are like the NPs. Si can really hit people hard especially if they have a traumatic past, so they learn to not trust themselves or their own intuitions. Although, I think the first is more true than this hypothesis due to the sheer number of SJs statistically over NPs in existence. I think NPs naturally are very confident in themselves (too overconfident perhaps, and SJs are folks who aren't confident enough) because their intuitive sense is strong enough to predict possibilities, so they don't live in a cloud of uncertainty unlike the SJs.

Question- have you ever read the Catcher in the Rye?
Yes, agreed. Many ISTJs are enneagram 6 or have a wing 6, which explains that cloud of uncertainty over their head. I think NPs are confident in a way where they can just go with the flow without worrying too much over the many possibilities of something going wrong, due to knowing of life's bad experiences.

I read Catcher in the Rye a very long time ago. I do recall liking the theme of the book. I can understand why Holden acted the way he did. The poor boy had a really strong sense of personal morals and authenticity, and hated the idea of being forced to comply with the terrible status quo of the adult world. He didn't want to enter the future. He wanted to be stuck where he was, in the place where he felt he could control his very being. Of course, he realizes somewhere inside that time waits for no one, things change, life changes, but it's just extremely difficult for him to let go.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Think I know ESTJ who is 4.
I don't see any contradiction tbh. Enneagram motivations form a perspective to asses someone's type that is very different from the MBTI basis. They are simply two different things.
4 fix seem to be quite common, at least. I have it in my tritype as well.
I would be interested in reading your elaboration on the lack of connection between ISTJ functions and motivations of Enneagram type 4.
 

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I'm a 4w5 ISTJ, my tritype is 4-5-8.

"ISTJs first try to figure out, via Te, how to achieve like everyone else, but because of their Si and past negative experiences they develop anxiety in any unfamiliar situation (inferior Ne), therefore stifling creativity and growth in these areas. Only in few cases in the ISTJs life have they felt 100% okay in their Si and Te, and therefore were able to utilize their Fi and Ne. These were probably some of the moments where ISTJs considered that perhaps they're "different" from everyone else, that they're not meant to achieve like others, but still their natural instinct is to desire the objective achievement." @InkMyUmbrella

In a way I can relate to this, but I have always achieved what I wanted although I always was and continue to be the black sheep in everything. It used to make me sad but I learned to accept it and embrace it. I'm cool with it now and see it as a good thing. I just fully stand out in a crow and I don't know why, it's not like I have an outrageous hair, for example, but people always tell me that.

"... that they're not meant to achieve like others, but still their natural instinct is to desire the objective achievement."

This is something I can fully relate to, couldn't have said it another way.

"... we are talking about is the ISTJ, Enneagram 4 type, which is reliable, likes security and trusts personal experience like your typical ISTJ, but they also happen to possess uncommon type 4 tendencies such as wanting what they admire in others but don't actually act on it to make it happen (for some reasons, such as the ones you listed), and they are constantly searching for their identity - which can really look like they are high in Fi, because the focus is so much on how they personally see something." @Bunniculla

Well, I go by more to be what I needed when I was younger, it's kind of my guideline. I do sometimes want what I admire on people but it's not that common for it to happen and it leaves quickly, because I know the importance of being myself and how everyone has pros and cons. I try to improve what I think is wrong and needs some improvement. I'm always looking for ways to improve and to be myself, to separate my thoughts from thoughts that are implemented by other people or society which can be said it's searching for my true identity. My Fi is actually really low, so not sure on that part.

"
That's probably the main thing which leads me to my next point.
There's a chance that many NPs on here, particularly ones who are depressed, are actually SJs (though they REALLY don't want to admit it due to the shitty online descriptions). SJs can seem just as intelligent and forthknowing as NPs especially if they are experts in a certain field. Knowing all these details about something their interested in helps them develop their intuitive sense in that field. And probably lots of depressed people read thoroughly about the humanities, so they're actually able to get an intuitive sense about other people as well." @InkMyUmbrella


Yeah, the SJs stereotypes are something, I tell you. They're really annoying. I've been accused of not being deep enough by my intuitive friends or to be slow but I honestly think otherwise, in not being deep enough, it's just that we have different interest and I go more for a concrete idea without wandering off from it. I think I unconsciously dumb myself when I'm around people, saying a lot less that what I know but everytime I tried I got interrupted and cut off, so I guess that could have something to do with it. I mean, what's the point in trying?

Overall I think it's contradictory yet at the same time complementary. It's an unique combination that can be good and bad, melancholy and remembering things vividly can be pretty bad but it has a lot of good things.
 
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I'd say it makes sense. Perhaps many INFP and ENFPs on here are actually ISTJ 4s. I suspect I might be one.

These Si doms probably have not "achieved" a whole lot in their life (meaning Te sees everyone else getting better grades than them, having more friends, more popular, a better love life, etc. Aka objective measures of achievement), and this leads to a weird spot where ISTJs first try to figure out, via Te, how to achieve like everyone else, but because of their Si and past negative experiences they develop anxiety in any unfamiliar situation (inferior Ne), therefore stifling creativity and growth in these areas. Only in few cases in the ISTJs life have they felt 100% okay in their Si and Te, and therefore were able to utilize their Fi and Ne. These were probably some of the moments where ISTJs considered that perhaps they're "different" from everyone else, that they're not meant to achieve like others, but still their natural instinct is to desire the objective achievement. So they figure perhaps a more creative career is what they truly desire, but they're not sure if they're realllyyy good enough because they've read some amazing books or seen some incredibly art, and they are in awe of what the person made and how much attention they received because of it. What if they end up as a starving artist? That's a big no no, and against the very nature of the ISTJ. So they're back and forth between choosing conventional, secure and money-making careers which may not excite them as much, and careers which earn less and they're not even sure if they're good enough for in the first place, blah blah-> enneagram 4, 6, 9, you name it. The "I'm special and have great potential...I think? Maybe not? I dunno man :( " type.

At least this is my 2 cents. In other words, my life. XD

WTF!!! GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!

This is exactly how I feel! I strongly identify to the typical ISTJ description (of course) but I always feel like in some aspects, I'm a bit off. For instance, I simply cannot for the life of me get into the ''corporate world'' I WANT to, but I can't. I can't sell my assets and I don't know where to start so I put up with a shitty job/salary. I feel like real ISTJs should be able to do this effortlessly. I'm a clean freak, I can organize any task in my sleep, but when it comes to marketing myself and actually making money off those skills? Nada. I feel like I come off as a lazy INFP to prefessionals (no offense). I'm seen by everyone who knows me as weird and super secretive. To say that I don't ''let anyone in'' in my case in an understatement. My family and closest friends know jack about me, because that's the way I want it.

I'm currently the singer in a metal band. I've been told over and over that I'm a natural, but I can't accept that. I feel like I'm too standard and not artistic enough to play the part. Like it's not in any way possible for me to actually pull this off because I'm not an artist, I'm too ''everyday rational working man'' and thus I'm a fraud. I take a really business approach to it, which typically goes directly against the entire thing because it should be art and passion, but I'm all about the technique and logistics. So in other words, the skills I seem to be lacking in the business world, I'm overdoing them in the artistic world. It's a really weird and messed tug o'war where I want to fit in in both the corporate and artistic world but feel I fall short in both. I feel like a natural ISTJ is competent in the business world, whereas a typical SP type is a natural in the artistic world and I come up short in both scenarios. It's.....actually kinda horrible to feel like this.

I may have deviated from the post I was quoting, but damn it hit home hard!
 

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@Stevester

Is music your passion? Why do you pursue this instead of a more "stable" job like accountant, pharmacist, etc? What exactly makes it hard for you to pursue a "stable" career? Just wondering, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

I, on the other hand, am quite ISTJ-like in this sense. I don't really love my job, I don't hate it either, it's a job. Nothing more, nothing less. It makes money, which allows me to pursue the simple pleasures of life. I don't have a passion in anything, really. If I had a passion, it would just be to live with my loved ones happily. That's all I really want I guess. I feel like a lot of people would finding living this simplistically nightmarish and mundane.
 

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I actually have a College degree, but it's turned down wherever I go. As in ''That's nice, but here you need experience in this and that...'' I mean, I hate to blame everyone else and not take accountability. But I've been turned down of just about every job interview I had because they wanted someone with X years of experience. Like, doesn't anyone realize that people have to start somewhere when it comes to experience?? And it sucks because I know I would be super competent. My work history speaks for itself.

But going back to type 4 ISTJs, I think there would definitely be a war between Te and Fi. With Fi crying out for individuality, self-expression and wanting to follow its dreams, but is constantly pulled back by Te which says ''No'' because money, stability and achievements first. Like a parent that tells their kid they can't play video games until they do all their chores and eat their vegetables first.
 

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I'd say it makes sense. Perhaps many INFP and ENFPs on here are actually ISTJ 4s. I suspect I might be one.

These Si doms probably have not "achieved" a whole lot in their life (meaning Te sees everyone else getting better grades than them, having more friends, more popular, a better love life, etc. Aka objective measures of achievement), and this leads to a weird spot where ISTJs first try to figure out, via Te, how to achieve like everyone else, but because of their Si and past negative experiences they develop anxiety in any unfamiliar situation (inferior Ne), therefore stifling creativity and growth in these areas. Only in few cases in the ISTJs life have they felt 100% okay in their Si and Te, and therefore were able to utilize their Fi and Ne. These were probably some of the moments where ISTJs considered that perhaps they're "different" from everyone else, that they're not meant to achieve like others, but still their natural instinct is to desire the objective achievement. So they figure perhaps a more creative career is what they truly desire, but they're not sure if they're realllyyy good enough because they've read some amazing books or seen some incredibly art, and they are in awe of what the person made and how much attention they received because of it. What if they end up as a starving artist? That's a big no no, and against the very nature of the ISTJ. So they're back and forth between choosing conventional, secure and money-making careers which may not excite them as much, and careers which earn less and they're not even sure if they're good enough for in the first place, blah blah-> enneagram 4, 6, 9, you name it. The "I'm special and have great potential...I think? Maybe not? I dunno man :( " type.

At least this is my 2 cents. In other words, my life. XD
The words, they hurt. Make it stop. I haven't put any thought on my enneagram yet — not since realizing I am ISTJ, but this really hits home. I should read more about enneagram 4. Before, I thought to be a 6 myself, but once figuring out my type, I wonder if what I thought was enneagram 6, might not just be a manifestation of Si-Ne instead.

The bold part: I went through that recently. I realized I want to follow a creative career and I admit, I did and do worry about a bit about the financial side of following a career in art, because I very much value stability and safety. I just don't think I am young enough to keep wasting time, plus I have already tried to follow different, more stable careers, and I don't want to back to that. There was no self fulfillment.

So, I am rolling with it. I will deal with the difficulties as they come — When reading this, younger me would ask: Who are you? What have you done to Hugging Wabbits?).
 

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I don't think Type 4 and ISTJ make sense together whatsoever, tbh. Type 4 literally lives by feelings that are pretty much the MBTI Feeling function.

I was into trying to see my feelings and whatnot before, but I was still just logically dissecting, putting all of it into systematic details and attempting to logically deal with all of it. Even though I did directly feel some of the feelings and would get even stuck in them a bit, Type 4 identifies with the Feeling function way more than that. (I will admit I don't have much 4, not even as tritype, just as my disintegration line or whatever, but I was just giving my own example, and this applies in general.)

All in all, by definition, to do what Type 4 does you have to identify with the Feeling function and so you have to be an MBTI F type. You can be a Thinking type and have 4 as a secondary mechanism or in your tritype or whatever but it can't be your primary mechanism of seeing things.


I'd say it makes sense. Perhaps many INFP and ENFPs on here are actually ISTJ 4s. I suspect I might be one.
I wonder what you were typing as when you wrote this post since I see you are currently typing as ESFJ.


These Si doms probably have not "achieved" a whole lot in their life (meaning Te sees everyone else getting better grades than them, having more friends, more popular, a better love life, etc. Aka objective measures of achievement), and this leads to a weird spot where ISTJs first try to figure out, via Te, how to achieve like everyone else, but because of their Si and past negative experiences they develop anxiety in any unfamiliar situation (inferior Ne), therefore stifling creativity and growth in these areas. Only in few cases in the ISTJs life have they felt 100% okay in their Si and Te, and therefore were able to utilize their Fi and Ne. These were probably some of the moments where ISTJs considered that perhaps they're "different" from everyone else, that they're not meant to achieve like others, but still their natural instinct is to desire the objective achievement.
That sounds like confusing Type 4's orientation for plain depression.


So they figure perhaps a more creative career is what they truly desire, but they're not sure if they're realllyyy good enough because they've read some amazing books or seen some incredibly art, and they are in awe of what the person made and how much attention they received because of it. What if they end up as a starving artist? That's a big no no, and against the very nature of the ISTJ. So they're back and forth between choosing conventional, secure and money-making careers which may not excite them as much, and careers which earn less and they're not even sure if they're good enough for in the first place, blah blah-> enneagram 4, 6, 9, you name it. The "I'm special and have great potential...I think? Maybe not? I dunno man :( " type.
Sounds like an ISTJ without any down-to-earth Sensing orientation and without any Te focus. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe an ISTJ that got temporarily into their more inferior functions could be like this, but again, it would not be their primary mode of functioning, and Type 4 wouldn't be the primary mode of functioning either.


The words, they hurt. Make it stop. I haven't put any thought on my enneagram yet — not since realizing I am ISTJ, but this really hits home. I should read more about enneagram 4. Before, I thought to be a 6 myself, but once figuring out my type, I wonder if what I thought was enneagram 6, might not just be a manifestation of Si-Ne instead.

The bold part: I went through that recently. I realized I want to follow a creative career and I admit, I did and do worry about a bit about the financial side of following a career in art, because I very much value stability and safety. I just don't think I am young enough to keep wasting time, plus I have already tried to follow different, more stable careers, and I don't want to back to that. There was no self fulfillment.

So, I am rolling with it. I will deal with the difficulties as they come — When reading this, younger me would ask: Who are you? What have you done to Hugging Wabbits?).
Type 6 has the motivation of safety, ISTJ has the Sensing and Thinking orientations cognitively that may support such a motivation and may support some other things as well. Otoh, the motivation of safety can be supported by other cognitions too. This is the difference. I see you went back to INFP since you wrote this post, how? Just curious.

PS: Good luck to your goals! Yeah deal with the difficulties as they come. :)
 

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Type 6 has the motivation of safety, ISTJ has the Sensing and Thinking orientations cognitively that may support such a motivation and may support some other things as well. Otoh, the motivation of safety can be supported by other cognitions too. This is the difference. I see you went back to INFP since you wrote this post, how? Just curious.

PS: Good luck to your goals! Yeah deal with the difficulties as they come. :)
I don't think MBTI and enneagram work in the same field, so to speak. As far as I know, MBTI covers thought process while enneagram is more concerned with behavior patterns. So, while somewhat clashing, I don't think it is impossible for someone to be an ISTJ type 4.

As for my type, I just went back to my "original typing" which I settled with for years. I eventually changed it to unknown because INFP still doesn't make a lot of sense. If anything, INTP would be more likely, if I had to be a Ne-aux.

Thank you.
 

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Ennegram is tricky, behavior and motivations don't always seem to line up and it assumes an ESTP 8 would act and cope the same as any other type if they were an 8 which is just stupid to me. I do find it hypocritical though that many people have issue with an ISTJ being a 4 but not with ENTPs being 5s. ISTJ 4 isn't a contradiction as far as I remember. ENTP 5 though? Aren't 5s basically extreme introverts? Hoarding knowledge, wanting alone time, afraid to engage with the outside world? How that can fit any extrovert type is beyond me.
 

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@grumpytiger

I also do not believe that MBTI and Enneagram walk in parallel paths. They are different, so an ISTJ Type 4 (while not common) is possible, depending on the individual.

Type 4:
Key Motivations: Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer."

Fours are self-aware, sensitive, and reserved. They are emotionally honest, creative, and personal, but can also be moody and self-conscious. Withholding themselves from others due to feeling vulnerable and defective, they can also feel disdainful and exempt from ordinary ways of living. They typically have problems with melancholy, self-indulgence, and self-pity. At their Best: inspired and highly creative, they are able to renew themselves and transform their experiences.
Source: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-4

You can rely on experience, compare/contrast related things to find solutions, have very unique sensory experiences, want safety and consistency, and still be sensitive, self conscious and constantly seeking "who you are" in this vast world. What do you think?
 

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Sometimes I wonder if my father is ISTJ 4w5 but that's only because I can't stand his emotional breakdown every 2 weeks. I still believe he's 8w9 but maybe 4 is in his tritype. My father is quite melancholic, self-indulgent and self-absorbed, but I don't think that's right to say he's 4 just because of that.

I'm having a hard time imagining 4 + ISTJ though, I'd need someone to basically explain their life and how they deal with it.
 
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