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I wouldn't say we're traditional. We may come off like that to outsiders but we just look for what works and what doesn't in the real world
Correct.

What works tends to be what has worked in the past.

Therefore, we get the reputation of being "traditional" and "stick-in-the-mud" types.

Those who use such terms show their lack of understanding. Thankfully, we understand ourselves.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Correct.

What works tends to be what has worked in the past.

Therefore, we get the reputation of being "traditional" and "stick-in-the-mud" types.

Those who use such terms show their lack of understanding. Thankfully, we understand ourselves.
As someone with an IQ of 143, nothing irritates me when some intuitive smart ass spends 3 hours explaining something where he could of just told me facts straight away or tries to bring me in BS land where I can see that it doesn't work but he still goes on and on
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Also it's not that we lack vision for the future. It just we don't like uncertain visions because our risk tolerance is low.


By gathering concrete facts and data and as many as we can, when we have a vision in the future and when we have one, it's dead accurate.



Only when we have stability then we can allow ourselves to be childlike and navigate lots of ideas
 

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I'm conventional in many things. Don't care for weird shit. I don't try to be traditional for tradition's sake of course so if I happen to have my own way of doing things with something because it makes sense to me that way then I just do it my way. But overall I do not have a problem with being seen as conventional.
 

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Also it's not that we lack vision for the future. It just we don't like uncertain visions because our risk tolerance is low.


By gathering concrete facts and data and as many as we can, when we have a vision in the future and when we have one, it's dead accurate.



Only when we have stability then we can allow ourselves to be childlike and navigate lots of ideas
Yeah I can lack a vision for the future actually and that's not so good. But yeah, to set my course for some goal, I'm factual and realistic. And then once I do have a vision for the future, I'm set on it fine in this way and I feel quite good then that I have something to work for.

I don't really care to navigate lots of ideas in any childlike way tho'. Some I can do with some people I'm close to if they can make it fun. Even then it's not too many ideas, that'd just be an overload for me and I'm not interested.
 

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I wrote this recently in another thread, and it applies here:

I wouldn't worry too much about the tradition idea if everything else feels ok to you. I don't care for traditions either, and you'll probably find the majority of ISTJs on here would say something similar.

The main issue is that Keirsey based his entire SJ temperament from tradition as his starting point, which somewhat overemphasised it and I guess made it a popular trait to include in the descriptions. Like I say though, I've found most ISTJs to be... "well, I don't really think that's me".

What you'll probably find however is that there are some things in your life you are resolute to maintain. For example, you'll find some ISTJs will always choose the same restaurant when they eat out; another might not care much about traditional holidays, but year in year out bake their relative the same cake for their birthday; another might not be particularly religious but always make a point of going to church at Easter and Christmas because they were brought up to do.

In each case, they'd feel uncomfortable or somewhat uneasy if they didn't - new restaurant, loads of new unknowns, inferior Ne will come up with lots of disastrous possibilities; not baking the cake would feel like shirking their responsibility to maintain some consistency for a loved one; they feel a sense of duty to respect their family and their faith and would hate to let them down.

I'd say in principle it feels more like a commitment to something (you consider or judge to be) important and maintaining that commitment to create a predictable stable known in your life. But we tend to arrive there through an analysis of facts so it's never doing something for traditions sake, even if it may look like a tradition to others. We also tend to believe that, if it ain't broke, don't fix it so it then starts to look like a strong tradition or a routine.
I always thought of myself as unconventional though. I don't really follow a path of what others expect of me if it doesn't fit, and just tend to go with what's right for me instead. I don't shout about it though, the last thing I want is people making it into a big deal. I've learned to be subtle enough people just think I'm weird or anti-social and leave me alone.

In saying that, I'm happy to go along with traditions if it seems important to others I care about (as long as it doesn't bother me). But I don't really think it's important to maintain traditions as such. I enjoy knowing/seeing how things have changed over time though, so if a tradition isn't working, I'm happy to throw it out, even if I think it's kind of nice to have a book somewhere recording what was. You never know, it might be a useful future reference :)
 

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I wrote this recently in another thread, and it applies here:
I think I relate to the maintaining of consistency and commitment to things but it's not consciously to create a predictable stable thing. I think with me stability (routines and whatever) is something that just automatically happens without me having to try too hard for it. I can actually do something just because I've always done it lol, I actually have called such things my little traditions of my own, but I do usually have stuff as part of a system. Some systems I made very long ago and I still have them, I just don't change them. To be precise, the things that I may change periodically is some details of daily routines but other systems I don't change.


I always thought of myself as unconventional though. I don't really follow a path of what others expect of me if it doesn't fit, and just tend to go with what's right for me instead.
You worded this well. I don't see myself as unconventional too much but I do go with what I see as right. I don't mind expectations but if they really don't fit then yeah I go with what fits for me. Doesn't everyone though?
 

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I think I relate to the maintaining of consistency and commitment to things but it's not consciously to create a predictable stable thing. I think with me stability (routines and whatever) is something that just automatically happens without me having to try too hard for it.
Oh, I didn't mean any of it happens with any conscious effort. Not at all. I think a personality type's dominant traits are so automatic that they just happen, or appear to just happen. What I mean is we tend to thrive on predictability, stability and knowns, so we, without much conscious thought, put things in place to make that happen. It's not an effort for me to plan something and stick to the plan, but a P type for example might struggle with that, because they're not motivated by that underlying need for stability or predictability in the external world.

You worded this well. I don't see myself as unconventional too much but I do go with what I see as right. I don't mind expectations but if they really don't fit then yeah I go with what fits for me. Doesn't everyone though?
I'm not sure they do. I find a lot of people make decisions with a strong focus on what other people will think of their decision, or how they will react to them or judge them, or that they do something because everyone else is doing it. I don't see that many people that make a decision based on what is right for them above all else. People don't seem that independent to me. I see more people making decisions based off these sorts of reasons and then, a few months later, trying to work out why it's making them miserable - and more often than not it's because they went with someone else's opinion than their own.
 

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I find a lot of people make decisions with a strong focus on what other people will think of their decision, or how they will react to them or judge them, or that they do something because everyone else is doing it.
People who bow down to peer-pressure. "It's the in thing!" The problem is that the in-thing changes, not always for the best, and is subject to manipulation by people with an agenda.

Example: The ever-changing fashion industry. Why does it need to change so radically every year? It doesn't. So then, why *does* it change so radically every year? Oh, it's so that someone can line their pockets at the expense of those who are caught up in the chasing of the latest "in" thing in fashion...

I could make a blanket statement of "extroverts" - however that is utterly unfair and demonstrably not true. It would be more accurate to say "lower-IQ people".

It seems as though the higher-IQ types eventually look at things and start asking a large number of questions - which might add up to a resounding "WTF?" moment for us. From that point (which was very slow happening to me) we start being a whole lot more reflective and judgemental about many, many things.

Which brings up a couple of questions:

* What is conventional?

* What is the purpose behind being conventional?

Which as is stated further up the thread, it provides a stable and predictable basic situation to start building and growing from.

Others can think that we're loopy, strange, queer, unconventional, stick-in-the-mud, whatever pejorative they wish to use. For us it is still a stable, predictable basic situation to start from.

With a solid basis the chances are higher that what is built will stick around once it is completed, rather than for example if it were a building with foundations on sand or mud.

I don't see that many people that make a decision based on what is right for them above all else. People don't seem that independent to me. I see more people making decisions based off these sorts of reasons and then, a few months later, trying to work out why it's making them miserable - and more often than not it's because they went with someone else's opinion than their own.
A perfect illustration of inherently unstable people. Their personalities are built on sand and mud.
 

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Oh, I didn't mean any of it happens with any conscious effort. Not at all. I think a personality type's dominant traits are so automatic that they just happen, or appear to just happen. What I mean is we tend to thrive on predictability, stability and knowns, so we, without much conscious thought, put things in place to make that happen. It's not an effort for me to plan something and stick to the plan, but a P type for example might struggle with that, because they're not motivated by that underlying need for stability or predictability in the external world.
OK. I dunno how much I require stability beyond that basic automatic stuff. I think that part of ISTJ descriptions is at least in part the sp (self-preservation) instinct honestly rather than cognition. Including the security orientation especially. But maybe it's more complex than that, I'm sp-last I think, or at least I often don't focus on sp, but yet I have something in my cognition that's way more grounded and stable compared to say, the ENFPs lol.

As for planning, hm, I just like to go by a plan. I guess it orients me cognitively and I like to take it seriously and execute it and get things done. And yeah the part about orienting cognitively is what seems to go beyond just the sp instinct...


I'm not sure they do. I find a lot of people make decisions with a strong focus on what other people will think of their decision, or how they will react to them or judge them, or that they do something because everyone else is doing it. I don't see that many people that make a decision based on what is right for them above all else. People don't seem that independent to me. I see more people making decisions based off these sorts of reasons and then, a few months later, trying to work out why it's making them miserable - and more often than not it's because they went with someone else's opinion than their own.
Oh, ok, I must be blind to this sort of thing lol.
 

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People who bow down to peer-pressure. "It's the in thing!" The problem is that the in-thing changes, not always for the best, and is subject to manipulation by people with an agenda.
I don't really ever know... and really don't care to know... whatever the "in thing" is. Can't really give an explanation or "philosophy" of why that is, other than "I just don't give damn". It's always been that way for me as far back as I can remember. I would say that my lack of attention to these things has served me well over the years.
 

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I don't really ever know... and really don't care to know... whatever the "in thing" is. Can't really give an explanation or "philosophy" of why that is, other than "I just don't give damn". It's always been that way for me as far back as I can remember. I would say that my lack of attention to these things has served me well over the years.
Same here. I really just don't care. One of my friends spent a HUGE chunk of money on the new iPhone and I was just like... WTF. My criteria: Does it work at a reasonable speed, and does it have the features that I know that I use on a regular basis or that I would use (for instance, my phone only has a camera facing one way; my next phone will have cameras that face in both directions). Does it open email and compose quickly? Can I send a private message to someone quickly (need a ride, got a flat, etc.)?? Things like that.
 

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I think I'm likely ISTJ(either that or ISFJ), but it's taken time for me to see it. I think it's partly because of the descriptions and stereotypes associated with ISTJs and SJs in general, with the traditional trait being one of the major ones.

I think I was looking at it the wrong way too, as in some ways I am traditional. When I think of traditional I usually think of adopting traditions based on external factors, like society or family, such as political or religious beliefs or fashion. I've never really been traditional in this way.

But, I do have a pretty long list of traditions, things like eating and associating specific meals with specific movies, wanting to do certain things at certain times or with certain people, mostly because they are things I know I enjoy and know I'll only continue to enjoy them. :proud:

Sometimes though traditions can even appear to be random or spontaneous to others. One example is that I have different routes I like to take to work or other places. I have a go-to route, but sometimes I'll want to take one of the other ones based on some other factor that reminds me of that route.

It could be weather, the day, time of year, or based on what happened at work recently or what I want to happen that day/week/month. It's not that I think taking that route could ever change what happened or have any affect on the future, I just do it because of the way it ties everything together. To others though, it can just look like "Oo, let's go this way!" because I never explain the process behind it.
 

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Sometimes though traditions can even appear to be random or spontaneous to others. One example is that I have different routes I like to take to work or other places. I have a go-to route, but sometimes I'll want to take one of the other ones based on some other factor that reminds me of that route.

It could be weather, the day, time of year, or based on what happened at work recently or what I want to happen that day/week/month. It's not that I think taking that route could ever change what happened or have any affect on the future, I just do it because of the way it ties everything together. To others though, it can just look like "Oo, let's go this way!" because I never explain the process behind it.
Is that like, symbolic?
 

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The outside of your car is covered in dirt, but the inside is more emucalate than Jesus conception?
 
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