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Discussion Starter #1
I've been lurking for a few months reading about this stuff, and it seems the more I read the less certain I am of anything, with respect to which types are a best fit for me. So, I thought I'd make a profile and see if I could get some help with my goal of self identifying my types so I can better use these self help systems.

Thanks!

I usually score as NF when I take online tests, but have gotten all 4 of them; INFJ, ENFJ, ENFP, and INFP. I got INTJ on one test. On Enneagram, I have scored as 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8 - a different score on each test. I got sx/so on one test and so/sx on the other.

1. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore! Look at the random photo for about 30 seconds. Copy and paste it here, and write about your impression of it.

(it won't let me link an image of a snow capped mountain in the sun)

Serene.

2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?

What caused it? Can we fix it? If not, how are we going to get to our destination or home?

3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the afterparty that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?

Depends on whether or not I am tired. If not, sure. If so, then I'd want to avoid.

4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?

Inward reaction: They're entitled to be wrong. Outward reaction: Here's what I know about the subject. Maybe they will change their mind once they have better info.

5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?

Absorb the experience and modify my understanding if I can't find a way to make the new info fit into my existing paradigm.

6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?

Kindness, loyalty, helpfulness, benevolence, charity, being a good person. I have always been like this. They've gotten more jaded and cynical as I've aged.

7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? b) If you could change one thing about you personality, what would it be? Why?

I'm kinda odd, and I've spent most of my life trying to figure out why. I'm blunt. I try to make people laugh. I tend to notice things most people don't, connect dots that most people miss. I spend a lot of time in my imagination and/or overthinking. I also fail to pick up on a lot of things that everyone else seems to just get when it comes to personal expectations. I don't think I'd change anything about my personality because there would likely be unexpected side effects. My personality has been slowly changing on its own over the past few decades. No point in forcing it.

8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?

I get them a lot, and almost always go with 'logic', then regret it because my hunches are almost never wrong. I get them out of nowhere, like l just suddenly feel like I need to take an umbrella even though it's sunny and the forecast is clear - so l don't take it because there's no logical reason to do so, then I get caught in a fluke rainstorm.

9. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?

Energize me most? Getting sexual / romantic attention. It's better if I'm attracted to them, but not a requirement.

Drain me most? Being in chaotic loud places with crowds of people talking to each other and visual distractions, like dance clubs. I can be in loud places with crowds as long as the crowd is quiet and focused on the same thing, like a concert. It's when everyone's energy is different that I get drained. Maybe overwhelmed is a better term than drained. I have to get away and regroup my thoughts / energy. Like drained of energy and motivation? Feeling unloved / rejected.

10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?

Very little, and it gets me in trouble because people are often so much more thin skinned than I assume. I have good intentions, and say and do what I feel is right, but what's right for me isn't always right for others. The golden rule doesn't really work for me because what I'd want others to do for me is be upfront, honest, blunt, helpful, and correct me if I have something incorrect. In recent years, I've started trying to avoid offending people with these things, but it usually just leaves me awkward and quiet.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Here are my scores from the keys2cognition test.

extraverted Sensing (Se) ************************************* (37.6)
excellent use
introverted Sensing (Si) ********************* (21.4)
limited use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ********************** (22.1)
limited use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ************************************* (37.5)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) *************************** (27.4)
average use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ********************* (21.2)
limited use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ************************************* (37.5)
excellent use
introverted Feeling (Fi) *********************************** (35.5)
good use
 

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no type is sticking out to me as obvious but all I can say is you're an intuitive feeler with at least tertiary logic and most likely inferior sensing. and you don't seem extraverted. so by that I'd have to say INFJ, but nothing you said makes me think INFJ to be honest so I am not confident in that. sorry I couldn't help more..

your test results point more towards an NFJ type than an NFP type. leaning towards ENFJ due to the low thinking scores and average sensing scores. your test results conflict with the first post to a certain extent.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Here are my results from a Socionics test. Again, Fe and Ni are tied, with Fi being high.

EIE

IEI 89% as likely as EIE
EII 53% as likely as EIE
ESE 50% as likely as EIE

Beta 35
Gamma 24
Alpha 21
Delta 19

Fe 38%
Ni 37%
Te 12%
Si 13%

Ti 12%
Se 13%
Fi 38%
Ne 37%
 

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Here are my results from a Socionics test. Again, Fe and Ni are tied, with Fi being high.

EIE

IEI 89% as likely as EIE
EII 53% as likely as EIE
ESE 50% as likely as EIE

Beta 35
Gamma 24
Alpha 21
Delta 19

Fe 38%
Ni 37%
Te 12%
Si 13%

Ti 12%
Se 13%
Fi 38%
Ne 37%
you are most likely an ENFJ or INFJ, this is consistent with everything you've posted. now you have to figure out if struggle more with logical matters or sensory required activities.

INFJs have a high level of Fi that is ignored for the most part in favor of Fe.

ENFJs the same but instead ignoring Ne in favor of Ni.
 

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Looks ENFJ to me. Fe, Ni, Se, and Fi are your strongest. Ti is your weakest. INFJ would probably have better Ti and less Se.

INFJs have a high level of Fi that is ignored for the most part in favor of Fe.

ENFJs the same but instead ignoring Ne in favor of Ni.
Could you explain 'ignored'? That's a Socionics term, right?
 

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Things that make me think ENFJ from your questionnaire...

On Enneagram, I have scored as 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8 - a different score on each test. I got sx/so on one test and so/sx on the other.
These all have ENFJ flavors, and when combined, it implies ENFJ. 1, 2, and 6 sx/so or so/sx especially. 1 is very J, but also NF when idealistic. 2 is pretty much the essence of Fe. 6 is a lot like how ENFJ's use Ti, but also how they use Fe and Ni to troubleshoot and focus on mutual support. The 4 and 8 could be sx and a strong Ni and Se respectively. Would you say you were more 4 when you were younger and the 8 side 'grew in' later? That would match the ENFJ development model of Ni and Se.

What caused it? Can we fix it? If not, how are we going to get to our destination or home?
This is a clear use of Ni, Se, and Ti to back up Fe. Focus on 'we' and the group goal / well being.

Inward reaction: They're entitled to be wrong. Outward reaction: Here's what I know about the subject. Maybe they will change their mind once they have better info.
This is so Fe it hurts, and it's dripping with Ni and Se. It's also got a layer of how ENFJs use Fi as a strong but unfavored shadow function. You know what's right without questioning it, and seek to get others to agree... without upsetting them if possible.

Absorb the experience and modify my understanding if I can't find a way to make the new info fit into my existing paradigm.
This is secondary Ni if I've ever seen it. The Fe paradigm is primary, but the Ni absorbing supports it.

Kindness, loyalty, helpfulness, benevolence, charity, being a good person. I have always been like this. They've gotten more jaded and cynical as I've aged.
Classic ENFJ description.

I'm blunt. I try to make people laugh. I tend to notice things most people don't, connect dots that most people miss. I spend a lot of time in my imagination and/or overthinking.
Again, classic ENFJ description. Se is blunt. Fe wants people to laugh. Ni connects dots. Because of inferior Ti, ENFJs are also prone to overthinking. Ni is the imagination function.

I get them a lot, and almost always go with 'logic', then regret it because my hunches are almost never wrong. I get them out of nowhere, like l just suddenly feel like I need to take an umbrella even though it's sunny and the forecast is clear - so l don't take it because there's no logical reason to do so, then I get caught in a fluke rainstorm.
You just described how secondary Ni works. Dominant Ni doesn't actually do this. It's more detached and watching. INFJs and INTJs go with their hunches and find out why later. ENFJs and ENTJs get those hunches but they let their dominant function talk them out of it. I don't think you're using 'logic' so much as you feel things to be the case based on this. Like, you felt that it wouldn't rain because of how it looked outside, and you felt that the 'authority figure' of the weather forecast knows better than you. That's pretty much your Fe telling your Ni to take a back seat. Your Fe just prefers to feel that 'logic' is 'right'. This isn't a bash on your smarts. It took me a while to realize that my Fe was doing the same thing - feeling that logic and reason were right, appealing to authorities, etc.

... or I could be wrong and you're an ENTJ, and that's Te which is overriding your Ni, but everything else in this screams Fe.

Energize me most? Getting sexual / romantic attention. It's better if I'm attracted to them, but not a requirement.

Like drained of energy and motivation? Feeling unloved / rejected.
Dear goodness, the Fe is so strong right here, and at the core of your energies. Giving and receiving love, connection, friendship, loyalty, support, help, sharing. That's the essence of Fe.

10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?

Very little, and it gets me in trouble because people are often so much more thin skinned than I assume. I have good intentions, and say and do what I feel is right, but what's right for me isn't always right for others. The golden rule doesn't really work for me because what I'd want others to do for me is be upfront, honest, blunt, helpful, and correct me if I have something incorrect. In recent years, I've started trying to avoid offending people with these things, but it usually just leaves me awkward and quiet.
I literally chortled when I read this, it's so ENFJ. Like, every ENFJ I've ever heard of. Blunt to a fault with their good intentions.



So, let me ask you a few questions.

Do you suck at spelling unless you use spellcheck?

Do you tend to remember things vaguely, rather than specifically? For example, the gist of what was said rather than the words that were stated?

Are you more concerned with the goal than the methods?
 

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Looks ENFJ to me. Fe, Ni, Se, and Fi are your strongest. Ti is your weakest. INFJ would probably have better Ti and less Se.



Could you explain 'ignored'? That's a Socionics term, right?
yeah, mixed a little socionics in there. Socionics says that ENFJ has super strong Ne [just as strong as Fe] but it is unvalued and not taken as seriously as Ni.

INFJs have the strong Fi instead but ignore it in favor of Fe. I see that with myself, I have a lot Fi impulse but I consciously try to ignore it in favor of group harmony.
 

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Things that make me think ENFJ from your questionnaire...



These all have ENFJ flavors, and when combined, it implies ENFJ. 1, 2, and 6 sx/so or so/sx especially. 1 is very J, but also NF when idealistic. 2 is pretty much the essence of Fe. 6 is a lot like how ENFJ's use Ti, but also how they use Fe and Ni to troubleshoot and focus on mutual support. The 4 and 8 could be sx and a strong Ni and Se respectively. Would you say you were more 4 when you were younger and the 8 side 'grew in' later? That would match the ENFJ development model of Ni and Se.



This is a clear use of Ni, Se, and Ti to back up Fe. Focus on 'we' and the group goal / well being.



This is so Fe it hurts, and it's dripping with Ni and Se. It's also got a layer of how ENFJs use Fi as a strong but unfavored shadow function. You know what's right without questioning it, and seek to get others to agree... without upsetting them if possible.



This is secondary Ni if I've ever seen it. The Fe paradigm is primary, but the Ni absorbing supports it.



Classic ENFJ description.



Again, classic ENFJ description. Se is blunt. Fe wants people to laugh. Ni connects dots. Because of inferior Ti, ENFJs are also prone to overthinking. Ni is the imagination function.



You just described how secondary Ni works. Dominant Ni doesn't actually do this. It's more detached and watching. INFJs and INTJs go with their hunches and find out why later. ENFJs and ENTJs get those hunches but they let their dominant function talk them out of it. I don't think you're using 'logic' so much as you feel things to be the case based on this. Like, you felt that it wouldn't rain because of how it looked outside, and you felt that the 'authority figure' of the weather forecast knows better than you. That's pretty much your Fe telling your Ni to take a back seat. Your Fe just prefers to feel that 'logic' is 'right'. This isn't a bash on your smarts. It took me a while to realize that my Fe was doing the same thing - feeling that logic and reason were right, appealing to authorities, etc.

... or I could be wrong and you're an ENTJ, and that's Te which is overriding your Ni, but everything else in this screams Fe.



Dear goodness, the Fe is so strong right here, and at the core of your energies. Giving and receiving love, connection, friendship, loyalty, support, help, sharing. That's the essence of Fe.



I literally chortled when I read this, it's so ENFJ. Like, every ENFJ I've ever heard of. Blunt to a fault with their good intentions.



So, let me ask you a few questions.

Do you suck at spelling unless you use spellcheck?

Do you tend to remember things vaguely, rather than specifically? For example, the gist of what was said rather than the words that were stated?

Are you more concerned with the goal than the methods?
Funny how I relate to a lot of what you said here.

ENFJs are very blunt, more blunt then you would think as people like to think of Fe as the sugarcoating function and it kinda is to an extent. But you guys with tertiary Se, it really shows... in the physicality, the energy, and directness. Us INFJs are a lot more passive due to that dominant Ni and not as blunt but I know I can be at times. However I would say i'm a lot more logic minded than all the ENFJs I have known, our tertiary Ti shows a lot like your Se. Us male INFJs can come off nerdy and hermetic in a Ti-dominant way at times, not all the time though. I agree with you that OP is definitely an ENFJ, you opened my eyes more to it. Knew she was at least NFJ though.
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Things that make me think ENFJ from your questionnaire...



These all have ENFJ flavors, and when combined, it implies ENFJ. 1, 2, and 6 sx/so or so/sx especially. 1 is very J, but also NF when idealistic. 2 is pretty much the essence of Fe. 6 is a lot like how ENFJ's use Ti, but also how they use Fe and Ni to troubleshoot and focus on mutual support. The 4 and 8 could be sx and a strong Ni and Se respectively. Would you say you were more 4 when you were younger and the 8 side 'grew in' later? That would match the ENFJ development model of Ni and Se.



This is a clear use of Ni, Se, and Ti to back up Fe. Focus on 'we' and the group goal / well being.



This is so Fe it hurts, and it's dripping with Ni and Se. It's also got a layer of how ENFJs use Fi as a strong but unfavored shadow function. You know what's right without questioning it, and seek to get others to agree... without upsetting them if possible.



This is secondary Ni if I've ever seen it. The Fe paradigm is primary, but the Ni absorbing supports it.



Classic ENFJ description.



Again, classic ENFJ description. Se is blunt. Fe wants people to laugh. Ni connects dots. Because of inferior Ti, ENFJs are also prone to overthinking. Ni is the imagination function.



You just described how secondary Ni works. Dominant Ni doesn't actually do this. It's more detached and watching. INFJs and INTJs go with their hunches and find out why later. ENFJs and ENTJs get those hunches but they let their dominant function talk them out of it. I don't think you're using 'logic' so much as you feel things to be the case based on this. Like, you felt that it wouldn't rain because of how it looked outside, and you felt that the 'authority figure' of the weather forecast knows better than you. That's pretty much your Fe telling your Ni to take a back seat. Your Fe just prefers to feel that 'logic' is 'right'. This isn't a bash on your smarts. It took me a while to realize that my Fe was doing the same thing - feeling that logic and reason were right, appealing to authorities, etc.

... or I could be wrong and you're an ENTJ, and that's Te which is overriding your Ni, but everything else in this screams Fe.



Dear goodness, the Fe is so strong right here, and at the core of your energies. Giving and receiving love, connection, friendship, loyalty, support, help, sharing. That's the essence of Fe.



I literally chortled when I read this, it's so ENFJ. Like, every ENFJ I've ever heard of. Blunt to a fault with their good intentions.



So, let me ask you a few questions.

Do you suck at spelling unless you use spellcheck?

Do you tend to remember things vaguely, rather than specifically? For example, the gist of what was said rather than the words that were stated?

Are you more concerned with the goal than the methods?
Wow, that's a lot of interesting observation and insight. Most of it applies to me. Thanks for taking the time to write all that up. You make a really good case for ENFJ. I looked at the Socionics comparison between EIE and IEI, which I am assuming is ENFJ and INFJ, and I'd say about 2/3 of the EIE applied to me, but 1/3 of IEI was much more accurate than the EIE description. I feel like I'm too weird to be an ENFJ. I get lost in my imagination, and can totally ignore 'the group' and people's expectations. The ENFJ descriptions all make them seem like social manipulation masters, and while people tell me that I'm charismatic in person, I just don't operate like that at all. Whatever persuasive ability I have, it comes from sincere enthusiasm. I really don't think ahead in social situations. That can work to my advantage, but sometimes it definitely doesn't. The ENFJ descriptions all make it sound like ENFJs are playing chess on a global scale but with people. So basically, I'm saying that ENFJ seems like a pretty good fit, but it's definitely got some 'nope' issues that make me assume that's not it.

Yes, I have a lot of trouble with spelling. That's an odd and interesting question. What does it have to do with personality type? My spelling has gotten a lot better because of spellcheck over the years. Eventually, those red underlines get me to remember the right way to spell.

Yes, I'm really bad at direct quotes, but I can remember what people meant very clearly and for a lot longer than most other people remember conversations. I also tend to remember where we were, what the general emotional state was, the context, and even sensory cues like body language, clothing, food, smells, etc. But, I've had to accept that my memory for these things is similarly vague after looking at old photos. For example, I'll remember someone wearing a black long sleeve shirt and jeans, but not the stripes or texture or image on the shirt - nor the style of jeans. My visualization of the moment isn't perfectly accurate, but is generally accurate, and it seems that doing memory this way lets me remember a lot more and for longer durations than most people.

I am absolutely goal oriented. Being locked into specific methods annoys me.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
ENFJs are very blunt, more blunt then you would think as people like to think of Fe as the sugarcoating function and it kinda is to an extent. But you guys with tertiary Se, it really shows... in the physicality, the energy, and directness. Us INFJs are a lot more passive due to that dominant Ni and not as blunt but I know I can be at times. However I would say i'm a lot more logic minded than all the ENFJs I have known, our tertiary Ti shows a lot like your Se. Us male INFJs can come off nerdy and hermetic in a Ti-dominant way at times, not all the time though. I agree with you that OP is definitely an ENFJ, you opened my eyes more to it. Knew she was at least NFJ though.
Interesting. I never would have gotten this about ENFJs from the descriptions I've read. My inability to sugarcoat has cost me several jobs, friends, and relationships. I am notoriously direct.

But, I am very nerdy and can hermit deeply. I love rpg style video games and can sit and literally play them for days on end, marathon TV series, etc. I once spent 2 weeks alone in my house and it was awesome. I don't like crowds at all, and can only deal with large groups if they're people I like, and even then only if they're broken into smaller groups in different places. There's too much psychic energy in crowds. It gets overwhelming. Stuff like this makes me assume I'm an introvert.

All of my tests score me as right in the middle of introvert and extrovert. But, I don't really gain energy from being alone or in crowds. Crowds just get me scattered. Being alone gets me centered. My energy seems to revolve around feeling loved or rejected... or being passionate about something like a new movie or doing some art or getting to do archery.

Is there an especially INFJ version of ENFJ or vice versa? Maybe something to do with an Enneagram combination? Like maybe ENFJ 4 without the envy, or INFJ 8 without the need to bully?
 

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Interesting. I never would have gotten this about ENFJs from the descriptions I've read. My inability to sugarcoat has cost me several jobs, friends, and relationships. I am notoriously direct.

But, I am very nerdy and can hermit deeply. I love rpg style video games and can sit and literally play them for days on end, marathon TV series, etc. I once spent 2 weeks alone in my house and it was awesome. I don't like crowds at all, and can only deal with large groups if they're people I like, and even then only if they're broken into smaller groups in different places. There's too much psychic energy in crowds. It gets overwhelming. Stuff like this makes me assume I'm an introvert.

All of my tests score me as right in the middle of introvert and extrovert. But, I don't really gain energy from being alone or in crowds. Crowds just get me scattered. Being alone gets me centered. My energy seems to revolve around feeling loved or rejected... or being passionate about something like a new movie or doing some art or getting to do archery.

Is there an especially INFJ version of ENFJ or vice versa? Maybe something to do with an Enneagram combination? Like maybe ENFJ 4 without the envy, or INFJ 8 without the need to bully?
I don't know.. this paragraph seems heavily introverted to me. How sure are you that you're not an introverted type? The way you described your hermetic tendencies strongly rings a bell with myself and I consider myself a hardcore introvert.

You have to just reflect on yourself and figure out if a weak spot for you is percieving reality [inferior Se] or logical judgement via inferior Ti. I notice that people pay a lot of attention to their inferior in life. It's like a cut that you can feel everyday and no matter how much you dislike the cut it's very hard to ignore. As an INFJ, because I am on auto pilot Ni fantasizing and reflecting and being heavily impressionistic, paying attention to reality is something that is very concerning to me because I know it's something i'm weak at. Figuring out reality is interesting to me and something that I feel needs attention even though reality really drains me. I don't believe ENFJs will have this conundrum. Their dilemma is not the way they perceive, it is more about how they judge and act in situations. It's a tug of war between Fe and Ti. Harmony and Logic. The Ti is their sore spot, and if you call it out on them it hurts because they are painfully aware of it. I don't know how it works in depth as I am not dominant Fe.

Another difference between the two is that the auxillary function is one that can be switched on and off like a car consciously. I know Fe is something I can control easily. Ni is something I can never turn off. Fe if i'm not in the mood, I can easily disregard it [although I will feel guilty about it] or I can easily lay it on thick. Fe is not a major concern for me. ENFJs on the other hand, Fe is not something they can just switch off. Ni should be easier for them to turn on and off though. I believe they can easily get out of their heads and get immersed in reality when needed.
 

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Socionics says that ENFJ has super strong Ne [just as strong as Fe] but it is unvalued and not taken as seriously as Ni.

INFJs have the strong Fi instead but ignore it in favor of Fe.
Hmm. Maybe I'm just too mired in the Beebe model paradigm, but that seems backward to me. According to the Beebe model, Fi is the primary shadow function of ENFJ, and Ne is the primary shadow function of INFJ.

Ne generally annoys me. It's a constant barrage of things I need to solve down to the one answer. Every time I do, Ne just comes up with another explosion of pointless possibilities that need dealt with. I suppose my creativity and wit in the moment could be chalked up to Ne, but to me it seems much more like Ni and Se working in tandem than Ne, which has a manic pace and lack of focus. Meanwhile, INFJs seem much better at pulling an Ne tangent out of the air or following Ne tangents as they're thrown out by an NP - without getting annoyed by them.

What I am aware of in myself is Fi. I have a strong sense of how I feel things should be, my own moral compass, sense of right and wrong, good and bad. I'm aware of how it fuels my Fe need to interact and generate a consensus. I want people to agree with me on these things, and am compelled by my Fe to persuade them to. I am much more capable of going to bat for what I feel is right in the face of group harmony than the INFJs I know, who will often shrug, back down (without conceding of course), and observe. I've seen that expression many times and have come to know it as the "I'll let you be wrong" move. My Fe won't let me let people be wrong without some serious internal conflict. I really have to 'sit on my hands' and 'bite my lip' to do that. Fi is like a fire at the core of my Fe.
 

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Hmm. Maybe I'm just too mired in the Beebe model paradigm, but that seems backward to me. According to the Beebe model, Fi is the primary shadow function of ENFJ, and Ne is the primary shadow function of INFJ.

Ne generally annoys me. It's a constant barrage of things I need to solve down to the one answer. Every time I do, Ne just comes up with another explosion of pointless possibilities that need dealt with. I suppose my creativity and wit in the moment could be chalked up to Ne, but to me it seems much more like Ni and Se working in tandem than Ne, which has a manic pace and lack of focus. Meanwhile, INFJs seem much better at pulling an Ne tangent out of the air or following Ne tangents as they're thrown out by an NP - without getting annoyed by them.

What I am aware of in myself is Fi. I have a strong sense of how I feel things should be, my own moral compass, sense of right and wrong, good and bad. I'm aware of how it fuels my Fe need to interact and generate a consensus. I want people to agree with me on these things, and am compelled by my Fe to persuade them to. I am much more capable of going to bat for what I feel is right in the face of group harmony than the INFJs I know, who will often shrug, back down (without conceding of course), and observe. I've seen that expression many times and have come to know it as the "I'll let you be wrong" move. My Fe won't let me let people be wrong without some serious internal conflict. I really have to 'sit on my hands' and 'bite my lip' to do that. Fi is like a fire at the core of my Fe.
Yeah I don't blame you for thinking this. I do feel like Ne is more conscious for me than Fi is. Beebe could be the correct model.
 

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Yeah I don't blame you for thinking this. I do feel like Ne is more conscious for me than Fi is. Beebe could be the correct model.
the "I'll let you be wrong" move ^

;-)

Though to be fair, I don't really get Socionics. Seems pointlessly pedantic. The human mind is too fluid for such a codified system.
 

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the "I'll let you be wrong" move ^

;-)

Though to be fair, I don't really get Socionics. Seems pointlessly pedantic. The human mind is too fluid for such a codified system.
Lmao I dont think you're wrong honestly, neither one is set in stone for me BUT when I know someone is wrong I definitely pull that move almost always

is that an Fi thing?
 

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Interesting. I never would have gotten this about ENFJs from the descriptions I've read. My inability to sugarcoat has cost me several jobs, friends, and relationships. I am notoriously direct.
Yup, that's very ENFJ. We love people, but we're also genuine to a fault. That's why we're so often accused of being manipulative. Most people can't believe we're actually like this, that we have to be 'putting it on'. Nope. It's great when we're happy. Not so great when we're critical. Either way, you get the truth out of us, and I think this is the defining trait of ENFJ really - the struggle between loving people and loving the truth. It doesn't seem like these two things should so often be at odds, but here we are.

But, I am very nerdy and can hermit deeply. I love rpg style video games and can sit and literally play them for days on end, marathon TV series, etc. I once spent 2 weeks alone in my house and it was awesome. I don't like crowds at all, and can only deal with large groups if they're people I like, and even then only if they're broken into smaller groups in different places. There's too much psychic energy in crowds. It gets overwhelming. Stuff like this makes me assume I'm an introvert.

All of my tests score me as right in the middle of introvert and extrovert. But, I don't really gain energy from being alone or in crowds. Crowds just get me scattered. Being alone gets me centered. My energy seems to revolve around feeling loved or rejected... or being passionate about something like a new movie or doing some art or getting to do archery.
I don't think this is necessarily a litmus for introversion. You seem to be pointing out the exceptions. You also seem to be pointing out solo activities, emphasis on activities. I can do solo activities for extended periods and get a lot of satisfaction from them. I love going for long walks by myself at night. I frequently just lay on my bed staring at the ceiling as I process things. I spend a lot of time thinking and analyzing. I've come to realize that this is how I let my Ni percolate and process, and I do it without really thinking about it. Always have.

I think people put too much emphasis on contrasting the introvert and extrovert traits. Everyone has both. If you don't something is wrong. Well developed people are close to borderline on this. I'm guessing you're over 30. That's when the human mind finally reaches a point of 'balanced' development cognitively.

As for psychic energy. I resonate with this. I'm an empath. I can feel people's emotions emanating from them like hot or cold from an oven or fridge. I am very attuned to people's emotions, literally, and I care about people sincerely. This is also a classic ENFJ trait. It's our people's skills magic trick. We read people like brochures. That said, when I get around new people, there's a lot to process. I love doing it. It's reflexive for me. People are like puzzles to learn, who they are, why they are, what they are. However, if I meet too many people at once, and I'm processing all of them at the same time, all of a sudden I'm tracking all of their reactions, feelings, and trying to orchestrate some harmony and consensus. It gets overwhelming.

Also, and this isn't easy to admit, but if I'm not the 'ring leader' of the group I'm interacting with, I also get overwhelmed because I've lost control of my ability to maintain harmony and consensus. My mind will reflexively try to return to that - or once it realizes it can't seek to withdraw from the chaos. ENFJs are J primary, so order is important to our well being, and since we're Fe dominant that order is strongly focused in people interactions. This is why I prefer smaller groups and familiar groups. I can navigate them better. I can effortlessly predict reactions, so I don't have to ponder them. I gain energy from these situations, especially when the emotions are positive, fun, lively, loving, etc. The opposite is true of large or unfamiliar groups. I spend a lot of unconscious energy trying to predict and harmonize (and control) everyone. It's draining.

I think the best litmus for an extrovert vs introvert is how you react to a second person entering your private space as you're interacting with a first person. Does your focus go to them with interest or annoyance? Do people trying to talk to you when you're busy cause you interest or annoyance? Extroverts shift mental gears much more easily than introverts and tend to focus more on what's happening around them than introverts. Introverts think very deeply and it takes effort for them to shift their focus to something else. Extroverts react to things, quickly dropping their previous train of thought. This is how you can spot an extrovert. They have little trouble interrupting people because they don't mind being interrupted. Introverts have trouble interrupting people because they would be annoyed if someone did it to them.

All of the other stuff like gaining energy from being alone, being shy, talking a lot, etc is situational and personal preference. I know introverts who can't shut up once you get them going about something they like, and love attending events themed around those interests (INFJs and INTPs are notorious for this). I know extroverts who don't really talk much, instead preferring to be active, engaged, and doing stuff - often alone (ESTPs and ENTJs come to mind here). Myers-Briggs really didn't understand what Jung meant about introversion and extroversion, and instead applied social preferences to their test. It's a mistake that's haunted this theory ever since.

Is there an especially INFJ version of ENFJ or vice versa? Maybe something to do with an Enneagram combination? Like maybe ENFJ 4 without the envy, or INFJ 8 without the need to bully?
Yes, Socionics has ENFj-Ni and INFp-Fe. They switch the J and P on their introverted types. I'm an ENFj-Ni, or more specifically, the ENFj-Ni description resonated with me better than any of the other type descriptions I've read - even in the MBTI side of things. However, Socionics is complicated and assumptive, so I'd suggest just taking it at face value that some people develop their functions differently for various reasons.

Carl Jung's approach to this definitely implied that all of a person's functions are personally and uniquely developed. Basically, we all have a dominant function and an auxiliary function, then everything after that is an 'inferior function' that we develop as we go through life, react to situations, apply ourselves, etc. Therefore, no two people with the same dominant and auxiliary function are going to have the same inferior function preferences or usage. The brain makes its own neural pathways and highways. Dominant and auxiliary functions are just the starting point for the architecture.

There's a guy doing some neuroscience on personality type, Dario Nardi, and his data seems to imply Jung's theories are more correct than not. The dominant function pattern is pretty clear over time, and the auxiliary leaning can be seen, but after that there's a lot of personal variation for skills set and life experiences.

I'm of the opinion that these cognitive function hierarchy models are more conjecture than not. The human mind has some tendencies, but it's too fluid and dynamic to be codified like that. The best personality type can do is predict the tendencies - aka preferences. I used to get really hung up on things not fitting perfectly until I finally took a step back. I guess that's my inferior Ti over analyzing without strong Te or something.

As for your Enneagram combination, your indecisiveness sounds very 6 to me, and that would make it difficult for you to settle on any given type. You'll likely see some of yourself in all of them, but simultaneously find all of them too imprecise. If I'm right about that, 6 will make an introverted type more extroverted and an extroverted type more introverted. 6 is considered an ambivert. It does both. ENFJ 6 is a very 'thinking' ENFJ that has a strong Ni and Ti. But, 6 is generally a natural fit for ENFJ because 6 meshes well with ENFJs superego leanings, loyalty, helpfulness, mutual support, etc.

So, in long overdue summary, I am not saying you're an ENFJ 6. I'm just saying that what I'm reading here makes me assume that you are, and nothing you've written makes me assume that you're not. You could be an INFJ 6 or even some other Enneagram type, but spaceynyc didn't really get INFJ vibe from you, despite seeing a lot of NFJ. Based on your scores and the triangulation between the two of us who don't know you in real life, that's my most accurate guess.

Lmao I dont think you're wrong honestly, neither one is set in stone for me BUT when I know someone is wrong I definitely pull that move almost always

is that an Fi thing?
I'd guess it's a 9 thing, but I could be wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Thanks Ousagi for the write up. That's a lot of thought and effort. Thanks spaceynyc for the input.

I've been processing what you suggested. I still don't see myself as an extrovert, comparatively. I have extrovert friends who make it clear that I'm not one. Though, I have introvert friends who also show me that I'm not one either.

While I can be very social in small groups for extended periods and I tend to dominate conversations, I need to have my alone time. It's not an option for me. If I don't get it, I will literally just go find a quiet place alone to process things. I slip away undetected then come back when I'm able, or I just go home. For example, if I'm stuck at a social event, I'm prone to 'exploring' the building to find a serene place where I can just feel vibes.

I am fairly certain that I Ni reflexively and have to actively choose to Fe. I can't turn off my Ni, like ever. It just goes. When I wake up in the morning, I can feel my Fe kick in about an hour later. Until then, I can't talk and only operate in unspoken understandings. I don't know what to make of the difference between Socionics or Beebe, but I feel like I have a strong core of Fi and can Ne if I have to. I feel like the Fi is more inherent and the Ne is active. I just know how I feel about things, if they're good or bad. I don't have to actively explore that. It's a gut level instant understanding. I have to actively try to be creative. It's easy, but it's a focused thing. I have to aim my attention at what needs a creative solution. According to Socionics, I suppose that makes me an INFJ or INFp or IEI or whatever goofy code they use. I guess it means I'm an ENFJ according to Ousagi's account of how all the shadow functions work, but INFJ according to how Jung lays things out with Ni > Fe.

I like the suggestion about how social energy is more of an Enneagram thing than MBTI. I should probably look into that more. I still have a hunch that I have a strange combination of the two, which is what's making finding a type in either system more difficult than it should be.

I feel a lot of similarity with 4. Depression, isolation, feeling defective, weird, unlovable, worthless, romanticism, escapism, idealism, compassion, trying to find the true self. But, I really don't feel envy like at all. And when I read 4's self expressions, they're often much too bitter and scornful than I can identify with - and I can see that envy mechanism that I don't have.

I kind of identify with 2's need to be loved, but I really don't track other people's needs very well, unless those needs are expressed or the person in question is my significant other, and even then I'm not as good at it as 2's are written up to be. I also don't have much pride. Again, I'm very in touch with feeling worthless and most of my subconscious motivations seem to revolve around filling this void with love and adoration, or at least respect, or in a worst case intimidation. All the above if possible.

I read up on 6, and that doesn't sound like me at all. I'm not especially dutiful or conformist. I have no problem making waves or defying the norm, especially if the norm is wrong. I rarely get anxious unless there's something to worry about like health or finances or a significant other pulling away. Otherwise, I tend to stay lost in my head, fantasizing about fictional things, magic, alternate realities, idealism, etc.

The only other type that would maybe fit that is 9, but I don't have any back down, nor much ability to assume everything will be okay and ignore problems until they go away. I tend to get mad at problems and deal with them quickly, and while I don't like conflict, I have a clear life pattern of causing it.

Most of my friends think I'm an 8, but I really don't see it. They're control freaks for the sake of power with little to no morality. They say I'm confident, charismatic, and a natural leader. I dunno. Doesn't feel like it on the inside. I just do things and people tend to follow my enthusiasm.

I'm too free spirited to be a 1, too unconcerned with appearances to be a 3, too reflexively generous to be a 5, and too 'tame' to be a 7.

After reading up on Enneagram, it feels like the system is lacking several types, and it probably wrote itself into a corner by naming itself nine-shape. I am probably another type that got left out, as my motivations don't quite match up with any of those. I'd probably be superego, gut, reactive, and idealism. That's basically a mix of 1, 8, 6, and 4.
 

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Maybe you, the PersonalityCafe community, could help me figure out my Enneagram type?

Here are some things I know after a really deep self analysis a while back:

At the core of me is a black hole of worthlessness that presses against my soul and pulls on my feelings pretty much constantly.
Pretty much everything I do is an attempt to fill that void which pulls me toward things or things toward me.
I really don't experience envy. I'm genuinely happy when other people get what I'd want because I know how it would feel to get it. The closest I get to envy is a strong feeling of also wanting what someone has, but it's more like being inspired than envious - like "Oh cool! I want one too!"
I have an almost overwhelming need to be loved, primarily romantic love, but also platonic love.
I do things to be admired - mostly things I assume people will like.
I do things to be respected - which is a form of admiration for the things I like.
I do things to be intimidating and feared - which is also a form of love in a weird way, I have realized.
I engage in flattery, but it's sincere. I genuinely love people and want them to feel loved because I know how much I need it.
I give people the love I can't give myself.
I have suffered from depression most of my life, primarily because I don't feel loved, lovable, desired, wanted.
I have massive rejection and abandonment issues.
I will cut people down to make myself feel better.
I am aggressive and tough, and thick skinned, and it often floors me when people prove they're not.
I used to be terribly sensitive, and my thick skin is definitely a defense mechanism to protect that part of myself, but now I can't take it off.
I will help people at the first sign that they need it, but am really bad at tracking people's needs. I'm usually overwhelmed with my own needs, feelings, and fantasies.
I use escapism extensively to avoid feelings of worthlessness, often imagining myself to be magical and awesome and otherwise powerful.
I have a huge hero complex.
I am terribly crass and sexual, with a saucy sense of humor, like to the point that most people are offended by it. I kind of care, but not enough to make me change my behavior, and if people can't handle it, I disconnect from them emotionally instead focusing on people who can.
I feel a lot of shame about being like this and consider myself sexually bulimic - a history binge and purge with hyper sexual behavior then remorse about it.
I'm an idealist in the extreme and want the world to be better place, and am often telling people how to fix things without any request for help on their part.
I tend to be on the lookout for potential problems, but this is a learned trait because of the problems I've encountered or others have encountered. I love how it feels when people appreciate my help, but I really just want them to be safe, happy, and otherwise better.
I want the world to be a better place.
I'm sometimes willing to be mean callous in order to make that happen.
I can be a little paranoid, but it's usually because I've been taken advantage of. For example, I'm now paranoid about making sure my doors are locked since my house got broken into and robbed some years back, but wasn't before that. My trust issues are almost entirely related to specific experiences whether my own or those I care about.
My deepest desire is for a soul mate who adores me.
 

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My ability to help you isn't as strong as my urge to, but this seems like you've read the Enneagram descriptions, and listed why you identify with each type as well as why you've ruled it out.

But, looking at the overlap, I spotted these things:

- your focus on worthlessness implies 2, 3, or 4.
- your focus on idealism implies 2, 6, or 1.
- your focus on love implies 2 and sx.
- your focus on escapism implies 4, 7, or 9.
- your focus on rejection and abandonment implies 4, 9, and maybe 6.
- your focus on bluntness implies 1, 8, or 5.

This doesn't at all feel like an 8 or a 5. Too 'nice'.
This doesn't at all feel like a 9. Too direct and confrontational.
This doesn't exactly feel like a 1. Too unconcerned with proper, perfect, or competence.
This doesn't exactly feel like a 3. Too introspective, open about flaws, and self aware.
This doesn't exactly feel like a 7. Too little emphasis on fun, happiness, or self indulgence.

That leaves 2, 4, and 6, which all have a lot of merit based on what you focused on, but:

- It's too dark to be a 2, and it's seriously needy.
- It's too focused on the self, worthlessness, and escapism to be a 6.

Honestly, I have trouble seeing this as anything but 4. Huge focus on who you are. Escapism. Idealism. Worthlessness. Abandonment. That blunt and callousness could easily be a manifestation of 4's need to be genuine. And while you claim to not feel envy, there is a clear sense of longing all through this that is almost tangible, which could easily be rooted in what causes a lot of 4's to envy. But, here's the thing about 4's and envy. It's an awareness of what one lacks, which you clearly expressed in this, pretty much all through it. Most 4's are Fi users, so they're more attuned to what other people have that they don't, and aren't inclined to be happy for them like Fe is. Fi removes their 'shared happiness' reflex. Sure, they can choose to be happy for someone else, but it's not part of their mental architecture. It's optional. What happens for them is a deep sense of longing that is heightened by being exposed to the thing they long for, which makes them feel the longing more acutely, which they're aware of feeling and what caused them to feel it, so they can often become resentful. The end result is envy. For an Fe user, that inner processing isn't conscious and they often feel both longing and happiness for the person who has it. This is a bittersweet feeling for an Fe 4, like crying at a wedding.

You're clearly an sx. 4 sx is commonly mistyped as 8, but also has a lot in common with 6 sx when it's counterphobic and rebellious. 4 also has a strong tie to 2 and 1. Naranjo said that 4 is the most superego of the ego types, and that's why. Both 1 and 2 are superego. These are all the types you said you identified with.

You asked about ENFJ 4 earlier. That would definitely seem more like an INFJ, and definitely give you a strong Ni leaning, and enhance your Fi. But, there's no way you're an INFJ 4, and question whether or not you're an introvert.

Honestly, ENFJ would account for everything about 4 that you objected to, even something you might not have noticed - that ENFJ need to over analyze everything combined with the 4 need to establish identity combined with ENFJs need to base their identity on external influences and opinions combined with 4's romanticism combined with ENFJs idealism.

I'm switching my guess to Ni heavy ENFJ 4w3 sx.
 
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