Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 36 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I know a few ENFP's and one who I know especially well told me in a conversation she's never been especially jealous or controlling.

I thought that was very interesting, because it confirmed the impression I always had of them. That they tend not to worry much about infidelity or even moral betrayal from their partners, like it's something that's just not on their mind.

My question is: the ENFP are described as having a sort of "inner mysticism", a kind of "spirituality" proper to their type. Somehow I feel it's that peculiar "inner life" that makes them not be prone to jealousy.

Could the ENFP please illustrate/elaborate how most people are said to be jealous and they just don't worry about thinking in those terms?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
When someone cheats on you, they don't just break the illusion that they see no one but you. They also break a promise to you, put your health at risk and lower your status among your peers all in that one action. I've never been the jealous type, but that has never meant I was ok with being cheated on.

Edit: Jealousy just doesn't make sense to me. Being better than me or having better circumstances than me is not a crime. I don't think my values would allow me to be mad at someone for simply being better than me. Again, cheating is not just about jealousy. It's a betrayal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Jealousy is: the fear or weariness of, seeing your relationship, threatened or diminished, by another relationship. (This applies both, to friendship and partnership.)

Envy is: the sadness, arising from someone else's abilities or possessions.

Betrayal is: the breaking of a reasonable expectation or compromise/promise, be it implicit or explicit.

You mention "illusion" ("doesn't see anyone else"), by nature we are not immune to "attraction" except should we be blinded by love - the state of blissful blindness, of complete absorption.

Having said that, the original sense of my question is that the ENFP's I met, in all of our interactions over the years, never once hinted or mentioned jealousy, be it of friendship, or romantic (at most, they mentioned sadness out of consummate loss). I find this exceedingly rare in terms of cognition (we could even assume they were blissful and were never given reason for jealousy).

But the complete lack of any mention of jealousy, not only in regard to themselves, but in comment on others lives, does hint at it not being on their mind. (And that is noteworthy, cognitively...)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
Jealousy is: the fear or weariness of, seeing your relationship, threatened or diminished, by another relationship. (This applies both, to friendship and partnership.)

Envy is: the sadness, arising from someone else's abilities or possessions.

Betrayal is: the breaking of a reasonable expectation or compromise/promise, be it implicit or explicit.

You mention "illusion" ("doesn't see anyone else"), by nature we are not immune to "attraction" except should we be blinded by love - the state of blissful blindness, of complete absorption.

Having said that, the original sense of my question is that the ENFP's I met, in all of our interactions over the years, never once hinted or mentioned jealousy, be it of friendship, or romantic (at most, they mentioned sadness out of consummate loss). I find this exceedingly rare in terms of cognition (we could even assume they were blissful and were never given reason for jealousy).

But the complete lack of any mention of jealousy, not only in regard to themselves, but in comment on others lives, does hint at it not being on their mind. (And that is noteworthy, cognitively...)
Well, speaking from personal experience, I've told women I loved that they were so beautiful/smart/caring/daring that I didn't have room for any other women. I even believed that myself. In fact this confidence in the depth of my love for my partner is what allowed me to find myself in the position to betray them in the first place. For 15 years I couldn't help cheating. As soon as I dropped this illusion and started to remove myself from situations where I would end alone with a woman that wasn't mine, I haven't cheated. 3 years and counting. Maybe there are people out there who experienced a level of love where they literally couldn't cheat, but that sadly isn't me.

I agree with the sentiment. I see what jealousy does to people. I'm glad it's not a problem I have to deal with.
 

·
exploring space
ENFP
Joined
·
8,990 Posts
I can feel jealous but it's a very muted feeling that I can easily control. Also much with anything else I turn it inwards toward myself to figure out if there's an actual issue, or I was being insecure, or if there's another problem to solve in which case I talk with my partner.
I don't worry about infidelity and betrayal because I try to communicate with my partner as much as possible, to know where each of us stand and feel in the relationship. Also I accept the fact that they're gonna be attracted to other people, because that's normal and healthy, but choose not to act on that, and trust that they wanna be with me because it's what they want. If any of this changes then I'm gonna deal with the new situation, worrying about it without any reason, or making mountains out of hills, seems like a waste of energy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
This is noteworthy since it demystifies the attribute of loyalty usually attributed to the ENFP, and especially so since you started by stating a value system that condemns betrayal.

Betrayal is both an act of the will, and an act of assent. You certainly knew what you were maneuvering yourself into. The final decision being taken (according to your description) when you were beyond the point of no return, and not without a significant contribution from the other party.

I am left to ask what your conscience was after the facts. How did you deal with the extent of the damages caused to whom you had betrayed?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
This is noteworthy since it demystifies the attribute of loyalty usually attributed to the ENFP, and especially so since you started by stating a value system that condemns betrayal.

Betrayal is both an act of the will, and an act of assent. You certainly knew what you were maneuvering yourself into. The final decision being taken (according to your description) when you were beyond the point of no return, and not without a significant contribution from the other party.

I am left to ask what your conscience was after the facts. How did you deal with the extent of the damages caused to whom you had betrayed?
It was never planned, but I wasn't drugged or anything and most certainly knew what I was doing. I hated myself for it and even lost a lot of respect for myself each time I cheated because it was simply a case of desire overwhelming reason. I was always honest about it and apologised, but I found that this is not enough. Once trust is violated, I don't know if it can be truly regained. The obvious pattern was something like this. I cheat > I admit to cheating and express my deep regret > After a while I'm forgiven > Now my phone is thoroughly examined every time I get up to go toilet. Partner gets anxious whenever I'm out without her. Essentially, the partner becomes consumed with jealousy and I end up being the bad guy yet again when I bail on the relationship because it just can't be how it once was.

Some things that I never tried that may work in terms of regaining trust could be, telling partner about the cheating myself as opposed to admitting to it after rumours spread around, and or being patient through the lack of trust/jealousy as retribution. Doesn't matter anymore though. I make sure I don't cheat so there won't be any aftermath to potentially clean up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,175 Posts
I know a few ENFP's and one who I know especially well told me in a conversation she's never been especially jealous or controlling.

I thought that was very interesting, because it confirmed the impression I always had of them. That they tend not to worry much about infidelity or even moral betrayal from their partners, like it's something that's just not on their mind.

My question is: the ENFP are described as having a sort of "inner mysticism", a kind of "spirituality" proper to their type. Somehow I feel it's that peculiar "inner life" that makes them not be prone to jealousy.

Could the ENFP please illustrate/elaborate how most people are said to be jealous and they just don't worry about thinking in those terms?

I don’t get jealous nor do I worry about infidelity when I’m with my partner/exes - why should I worry ? I’ll be offended if my partner was to get jealous or worried that I’ll cheat on them or betray them - I mean that’s quite delusional right ? Imagining something extremely negative about someone and worrying about it .
With that said - I have been cheated on before - and it causes me to lose interests in the person that I’m with more so than feeling jealous or envious, I’m not ok with infidelity - it’s a betrayal of trust , in my experience- I feel bad for the person that cheated on me because I know that they’re truly sorry - just my romantic feelings for them disappear and I couldn’t see anything beyond a platonic level with them . Do I hate or resent them ? No I mean I enjoyed his company and knew how much he cared for me and trusts me - why would I resent that - there’s worst things than cheating ( mental /emotional/physical abuse etc ) . However to regain that romantic feeling is nearly impossible.


Unsure if my inner thoughts deals anything with jealousy or if it’s even type related. I guess it’s more value oriented , I wouldn’t be comfortable with someone imagining up scenario or getting anxious about negative things that pertains to me - and if I were to do so then perhaps something is wrong with me mentally.

I have a few friends who gets jealous - I always find that action odd but I know that it’s common , in relationships I’ve only had one jealous guy that I briefly dated - I don’t think he’s a bad guy if he were to be with someone else , but his insecurity - are you thinking of someone else or his sudden quietness was due to me hugging a male friend - escalated my anger on how dare you think such of me and it bring out a side of me that I’m not too proud of , so I don’t do well in romantic relationships with those who get jealous or envious either .

I’m unsure of what you’re asking with the last question- can you elaborate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
@ENFPathetic there's a methodology in what's broadly called "family counseling" in the US for rebuilding shattered trust. It's a slow and painful process but it can be done.

Part of taking up responsibility for the consequences of your actions, places demands on you -at least- proportional to the damages the other half suffered and has to work through.

However, don't deceive yourself by thinking that "avoiding near occasions" solves everything. You also need to deconstruct what you pursued in those other relationships that eventually turned into sex, but had other dimensions before it became sex. Those basic human values, of friendship, affection have an important role and life is less meaningful without them. So, avoiding "near occasions" entails not confusing the former with sex.

In any case, if your ex's "heard it through the grapevine" it had become public knowledge, and that adds considerably to the social difficulties your created for the other person.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I can feel jealous but it's a very muted feeling that I can easily control. Also much with anything else I turn it inwards toward myself to figure out if there's an actual issue, or I was being insecure, or if there's another problem to solve in which case I talk with my partner.
Thanks @Red Panda this is a description of the cognitive-process I was looking for.

I don't worry about infidelity and betrayal because I try to communicate with my partner as much as possible, to know where each of us stand and feel in the relationship.
Communication is off course key, but the important part is what follows:

but choose not to act on that, and trust that they wanna be with me because it's what they want.
An act of the will is what it's all about.

If any of this changes then I'm gonna deal with the new situation, worrying about it without any reason, or making mountains out of hills, seems like a waste of energy.
So this is the other part of the cognitive process, that doesn't worry until things come about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
@ENFPathetic there's a methodology in what's broadly called "family counseling" in the US for rebuilding shattered trust. It's a slow and painful process but it can be done.

Part of taking up responsibility for the consequences of your actions, places demands on you -at least- proportional to the damages the other half suffered and has to work through.

However, don't deceive yourself by thinking that "avoiding near occasions" solves everything. You also need to deconstruct what you pursued in those other relationships that eventually turned into sex, but had other dimensions before it became sex. Those basic human values, of friendship, affection have an important role and life is less meaningful without them. So, avoiding "near occasions" entails not confusing the former with sex.

In any case, if your ex's "heard it through the grapevine" it had become public knowledge, and that adds considerably to the social difficulties your created for the other person.
Not that kind of cheater. I never had actual full blown relationships on the side. I cheated with women I hardly knew and never more than once with the same woman. For example the one that ruined my most important relationship happened when I was working as a post man out on delivery. It was a cold and rainy day out and a woman I delivered a parcel to kindly invited me in for a cup of tea. One thing led to another and we had sex. I explained I made a mistake and never saw her again. The scenario changes but the underlying pattern remains similar. I always found it odd why these encounters rarely happened whenever I was single but it is what it is.

In any case, I promise you, I got this nailed. If I'm alone in the lift and an attractive woman gets on, I get off. I understand that 9/10 this would lead to nothing. I don't cheat every time I'm alone with a beautiful woman, but every time I've cheated I was alone with a beautiful woman, so I'm not taking any chances. Prevention is better than cure. Also, while it's definitely encouraging to hear that people have worked out a way to restore trust to a broken relationship, I don't even want to imagine the shit storm it entails. I'll be the first to put my hands up. I don't think I have what it takes. Not quite there yet in terms of maturity.

This is strange but thank you for the back and forth. Getting that off my chest felt pretty good. I didn't even think I still harbored guilt over it.
 

·
Registered
ENFP-A - 2w3 - JEEP
Joined
·
5,107 Posts
I'm not the jealous type but I'm not ok with being cheated on, that's one way to get dumped fast.

It's more about the lie and manipulation than the person having sex with another. I don't like being manipulated and react very negatively to it.

I also don't play second fiddle. If someone wants to pay attention to another person for a long period of time and not me, then I just move on. I don't go after people who don't want me in return. It's probably the reason I don't get jealous by the time I'm with someone because normally I've built an enormous amount of trust to be there so if someone flirts with them I just sit back and smirk thinking, "Yep that's mine, flirt all you want but he's not going to break his promise." It's also flattering to see females try to pick up my husband and for him to not really notice. It's pretty hard for me to fall in love at first but then I stick like glue once I'm in a serious relationship. I think to fall in love I have to have an extreme amount of trust in my partner. I build this in the first months of the relationship.

I've never cheated on any relationship.

I could be controlling over my own self and thoughts. Meaning my thoughts are mine, don't mess with them. My actions are mine, don't interfere and trust me to do the right thing. People who try to control what I think, say, and do get a huge backhand bitch slap from me. It's something I strongly detest. Putting words in my mouth or trying to control the outcome of a statement is a huge no. Controlling what I eat by suggesting I'm either too skinny or fat is a huge no. It's my body, my life, and my thoughts. I don't like it done to me so I try not to do it to others. I had a very controlling mother growing up ( I still love her) but I think it's the reason I try not to control people. In conclusion, I like to control my self more but really dislike controlling others.

If I have issues with my partner I talk directly to them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
First off, thank you for your reply @ai.tran.75, I honestly appreciate it. I hope you can likewise appreciate it, if my elaboration will call some concepts surrounding jealousy into question. So here it goes:


why should I worry ? I’ll be offended if my partner was to get jealous or worried that I’ll cheat on them or betray them - I mean that’s quite delusional right
As you go on to say:

I’m not ok with infidelity - it’s a betrayal of trust , in my experience
Weariness of a loss or damage suffered is natural. There's nothing "delusional" about it. [In law "breach of trust" exists along these lines]. Seeing the confidence you placed in someone betrayed has consequences of, both consummate and potential, uncertainty.

I wouldn’t be comfortable with someone imagining up scenario or getting anxious about negative things that pertains to me
You advocate for almost unreserved trust. In business or social life, trust is gained, should be earned, and is maintained through reassurance. You can also make someone jealous, on purpose, only to accuse them of jealousy afterwards, the argument by its nature doesn't hold up, because it makes an absolute assertion without reexamining jealousy in specific (reasonable and warranted) circumstances.

there’s worst things than cheating ( mental /emotional/physical abuse etc )
Cheating is (or can be) a form of mental and emotional abuse (considering STD's it can even be physical abuse). Security is a basic human need, as are veracity and trust in personal relationships.

just my romantic feelings for them disappear and I couldn’t see anything beyond a platonic level with them
(...)
However to regain that romantic feeling is nearly impossible.
I'll point out that "romantic" and "platonic" are close to "infatuation"; thus secondary to agreement on values.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,175 Posts
First off, thank you for your reply @ai.tran.75, I honestly appreciate it. I hope you can likewise appreciate it, if my elaboration will call some concepts surrounding jealousy into question. So here it goes:



As you go on to say:


Weariness of a loss or damage suffered is natural. There's nothing "delusional" about it. [In law "breach of trust" exists along these lines]. Seeing the confidence you placed in someone betrayed has consequences of, both consummate and potential, uncertainty.


You advocate for almost unreserved trust. In business or social life, trust is gained, should be earned, and is maintained through reassurance. You can also make someone jealous, on purpose, only to accuse them of jealousy afterwards, the argument by its nature doesn't hold up, because it makes an absolute assertion without reexamining jealousy in specific (reasonable and warranted) circumstances.


Cheating is (or can be) a form of mental and emotional abuse (considering STD's it can even be physical abuse). Security is a basic human need, as are veracity and trust in personal relationships.


I'll point out that "romantic" and "platonic" are close to "infatuation"; thus secondary to agreement on values.
I agree lost of trust causes you to feel differently about a person, however I’m unsure how that correlates with jealousy- if someone was to go behind my back and make up false rumors about me , I’ll find that action worst than if a person accidentally give into temptations and is sorry about it .
There’s a difference between seeing what’s realistic in front of you and pointing it out versus imagining a scenario that have never happen . I’m sorry if I’ll offend anyone who read this - but jealousy to me is crazy . Imagining that someone is having a relationship with someone else is absurd.



* Making someone jealous ? Can you give me an example ? I don’t quite understand


There are worst things than cheating in my honest opinion- yes and there are levels of emotional abuse and if cheating is paired along with it then it’ll bring a more negative effect

What I meant is the act of unintended infidelity doesn’t offend me much - there are other deal breakers that are way worst


Regarding business - yes trust should be earned but that’s after seeing a person to their full potential or reading a resume , interviewing them then hire them .

With social life - I don’t agree so much with trust should be earned . I don’t enter a conversation with someone or start a friendship with them thinking that they’ll betray me - however yes as time progresses my relationship with the person may get more or less stronger . However I’m unsure how this deals anything with jealousy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: solarnis

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
It's more about the lie and manipulation than (...)
Lack of truthfulness and honesty, or lack of loyalty.

I also don't play second fiddle.
This expression is really funny, a literary device.

I don't go after people who don't want me in return.
Will and reciprocity. (As you say yourself, these can be deceiving and require some time to ascertain.)

This simplifies, the initial stages of a friendship or, the cases of those who aren't attractive, who have physical impairments, or find themselves socially outcast for one reason, or the other. In their case (much more common than you'd perhaps think) they build relationships from positions of disadvantage - that of being undesirable, unwanted. Hence, they garner reciprocity from nothing. (An admirable feat of resilience, of humanity, considering...)

I've never cheated on any relationship.
May I ask what you think of the narratives that promote cheating and demean loyalty (categorically so)?

Meaning my thoughts are mine, don't mess with them. My actions are mine, don't interfere and trust me to do the right thing.
This is ambivalent, some of my ENFP friends did grave mistakes by disobeying parents and partners. Being contradicted in your choices and wants, takes humility.

People who try to control what I think, say, and do get a huge backhand bitch slap from me. It's something I strongly detest.
The word "to control" is ambivalent. It means, "to know". The sense of "actuate", "co-act", or "coerce" is stronger implying either influence or power ("to control" is simply "to know", "to be informed", "to keep control").

I don't like it done to me so I try not to do it to others.
The "golden rule".

I had a very controlling mother growing up
Well @NIHM, here you'll permit a moment of good humor by cliché-ing that toward the end of the post we "regressed" into a "Freudian" return to infancy. (It's intended as a well humored remark, please don't take it the wrong way.) Since this is a "personality forum" I was surprised to understand some "types" like the ISTP and others are by tendency "controlling" and by tendency "crowed" their kids wanting to make all the decisions for them. (Perhaps you'll find this useful).

Thanks for the testimony and insight into the cognition of an ENFP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,175 Posts
Well @NIHM, here you'll permit a moment of good humor by cliché-ing that toward the end of the post we "regressed" into a "Freudian" return to infancy. (It's intended as a well humored remark, please don't take it the wrong way.) Since this is a "personality forum" I was surprised to understand some "types" like the ISTP and others are by tendency "controlling" and by tendency "crowed" their kids wanting to make all the decisions for them. (Perhaps you'll find this useful).

Thanks for the testimony and insight into the cognition of an ENFP.

Really istp have controlling tendency with their kids ? Never knew that - May you elaborate more on why you think so ?
I highly doubt it’s true base on the way their functions stack - observation from one that I have personal relationships with in my life or those that are on this site .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Really istp have controlling tendency with their kids ? Never knew that - May you elaborate more on why you think so ?
The term "control"(or controling) is only "hinted at" in most type descriptions. For example 16personalities mentions it 3 times but avoids elaborating. If you look at "first hand accounts" it's debated more openly.


base on the way their functions stack - observation from (...) those that are on this site
Response based on function stack from personalitycafe included above, if you use search more can be found. Again, the tendency only shows clearly in specific circumstances that touch them personally.


[P.S. Sorry I haven't responded to your earlier message. These responses take some time to write, so I respond in a first-in-first-out fashion. I was going to respond to your post next.]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,175 Posts
The term "control"(or controling) is only "hinted at" in most type descriptions. For example 16personalities mentions it 3 times but avoids elaborating. If you look at "first hand accounts" it's debated more openly.



Response based on function stack from personalitycafe included above, if you use search more can be found. Again, the tendency only shows clearly in specific circumstances that touch them personally.


[P.S. Sorry I haven't responded to your earlier message. These responses take some time to write, so I respond in a first-in-first-out fashion. I was going to respond to your post next.]
lol funny you quoted a friends of mine question- he tends to play devils advocate with the question more so than believe that Ti dom are control freak - most that responded said that they’re not control freak - and I don’t see any of the user mentioned anything about controlling their kids .
Istp is perceiving type - with Se as their aux function so they have more of a tendency to give other freedom of making their own flaws in the sense of
“ nobody can change you but yourself.”
The type itself doesn’t enjoy controlling others nor being controlled “ if pushed to be control they walk away, they like to take things as they come and the same applies to child rearing .

If you were to look into here - none of the istp users as parents find themselves controlling

https://www.personalitycafe.com/istp-articles/109571-istp-parents.html#/topics/109571

Also @NIHM talks about istj being controlling parents unsure how that pertains to false misinterpretation about istp - and what advice are you trying to give her exactly ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: NIHM and solarnis

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,175 Posts
The thread you linked says the contrary of what you state.

(I doubt you even read it.)
Course I’ve read the thread - can you point out to me where it said that istp are controlling parents or controlling? I’m quite curious
The only person who said anything about the type being controlling was a person who believe their father in law to be an istp - but did you see any istp claiming that they control their children or those they have personal relationships with

Also as mentioned before it’s unlikely
for the type based on function stack to be controlling of others . And the same goes with personal experience with the type itself. I’ve mentioned before why I think your reasoning is flawed
 
  • Like
Reactions: NIHM and solarnis
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Top