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I agree with @ai.tran.75 about the ISTP, my dad was ISTP and his lack of controllingness among some other things, was what made me decide he fit that type better than ESTJ. He fit the description she linked quite well. The contrast between him and my ISTJ mother in that regard was quite visible.
 

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@unimportant , your opinion can be hardly considered empirical proof of evidence and comes off biased. If your intentions were to be objective in your approach I fear you're greatly deviating off that path.

For example, you're splicing hairs about the word control. I doubt you fully understand the meaning of the word and are breaking it down into the context of relatable words. Cherry-picking the synonymous to go along with your personal subjective theory and far from an objective direction. If we were to look at some of the top words that correlate to control: authority, core, domination, force, and management would be the top in correlation when applying it to mastery. Which you ignored. You are exhibiting a high behavior to control and manipulate their writing into your own subjectiveness. Are you here to learn about them or just take unreliable guesses about previous knowledge you thought of them?

The only ones you agreed with, were ENFPs that verified this subjective knowledge. Thanking them for being reliable.

The meaning of control when applying it to human behavior and not a scientific experiment is below:

Noun: The power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events. (You're demonstrating this skill)

Verb: Determine the behavior or supervise the running of. (You're trying to supervise their meaning into your own.)

I'm curious why you feel the need to bend their connotation and take it out of context? I think you understand their meaning, most people would. Why do you feel the need to change that meaning into something it is not? Is dominating others on a forum for wordplay your stress relief for your environment?
 

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Lack of truthfulness and honesty, or lack of loyalty.
Lack of honesty. Loyalty can be earned but it can be lost. I may joke that my husband belongs to me but I don't cage him and I don't make fantasies in my head of the illusion that he belongs to me forever or that I have authority over his behavior or movements. Clearly I might not even know if he's been parading around posting, which I just discovered that amusing fact last night.

Will and reciprocity. (As you say yourself, these can be deceiving and require some time to ascertain.)
The practices of exchanging things with others for mutual benefit can be deceiving? I'm not sure where I expressed this? I just don't rush into things and need time to see if I fit with another person. If the shoe doesn't fit, I don't force it.

This simplifies, the initial stages of a friendship or, the cases of those who aren't attractive, who have physical impairments, or find themselves socially outcast for one reason, or the other. In their case (much more common than you'd perhaps think) they build relationships from positions of disadvantage - that of being undesirable, unwanted. Hence, they garner reciprocity from nothing. (An admirable feat of resilience, of humanity, considering...)
I'm sorry but this came off as babble to me, please rewrite if you want my opinion. What does this have anything to do with my statement which you quoted "I don't go after people who don't want me in return.." It almost reads like you're stating people that are at a disadvantage of status within society have to garner reciprocity? Again, being redundant, that means that they have to give out gifts to gain the respect of someone who thinks they're supercilious because of an outward appearance or class system? If this is the case, you don't speak for me and you certainly don't understand my viewpoint. I can't speak for all ENFPs but some of us do not value status. Again, being repetitious, I give no value to status of an individual: appearance or class. I need authenticity and that my peer has the intelligence to understand people and those around them with an unbiased viewpoint.


May I ask what you think of the narratives that promote cheating and demean loyalty (categorically so)?
I have no clue what narratives you're referring to so again I can't speculate my opinion. I also can't understand why this was written after my quote?

This is ambivalent, some of my ENFP friends did grave mistakes by disobeying parents and partners. Being contradicted in your choices and wants, takes humility.
Again, please restate. Where did I state it's not ambivalent. I stated I don't like to be controlled. Control doesn't have to point out that I made a grave mistake in disobeying my parents or that I demonstrated this behavior. How did you arrive at your opinion that I disobeyed them?

Every human being on this planet has the ability to change their opinion, wants, and needs at any given moment in time. There are no humilities in that. Being contradictory and having the ability to change your opinion within perimeters of applying new knowledge is a sign of a healthy frontal lobe. Having the ability to make choices for cognitive tasks is also healthy. Why would you apply words like humility or humbleness to an apparent reaction for a healthy brain to make? Did you not like to disobey your parents growing up? Did you not like your partner disobeying you? Is this the reason why you painted your ENFP friend with control issues?

The word "to control" is ambivalent. It means, "to know". The sense of "actuate", "co-act", or "coerce" is stronger implying either influence or power ("to control" is simply "to know", "to be informed", "to keep control").
The word to control is not ambivalent. Controlling is not an indecisive situation. It's not even vague. It means to have authority, discipline, management, and to curb the environment. It can have an undiscovered variant of whether that control is negative, neutral, or positive. These can also go along with to have a mastery over something, have charge of or to dominate, and to adjust, check, or regulate an experiment. In all of its synonyms "to know" is not one of those descriptions.

Well @NIHM, here you'll permit a moment of good humor by cliché-ing that toward the end of the post we "regressed" into a "Freudian" return to infancy. (It's intended as a well humored remark, please don't take it the wrong way.) Since this is a "personality forum" I was surprised to understand some "types" like the ISTP and others are by tendency "controlling" and by tendency "crowed" their kids wanting to make all the decisions for them. (Perhaps you'll find this useful).
Here I won't permit a moment of good humor. Here I might bitch slap you. I expressed very sincerely that I don't like my words minced. What did you do? Mince them into something I did not mean. I expressed I think almost advantageously that I highly detest, loathe, and rather have a negative reaction to what you've displayed so why do you think I would permit a level of humor on your part after my wishes were so carelessly discarded. After my words were picked apart and returned to a meaning in which I never expressed. I'm assuming you're not liking this outcome either because it doesn't feel good with your "golden rule." The only thing I control is what I state and I will not have those words be bent into another meaning. So I hope I'm being crystal clear that you can take your Freudian summary and shove it somewhere. When you have to state with "now please don't be offended," or "This was to be the best of intentions," clearly knowing they're going to upset the person. I'm more put off about you controlling how I used the word control and trying to control how it's meant to come out to you. Like seriously I can think of a lot of colorful creative metaphors to describe you if you want to play wordsmith with me.

I've never known an ISTP to have control issues but one could. Honestly, we're human beings and we will all control our environment. No type leads any other. If someone says they do, their perception of reality is highly skewed. We also have to demonstrate how this control is being applied. Is it one-self, is it to others, is it to external or internal stimuli, is it meant to be harmful? I didn't state ALL ISTJs control, I stated my mother who is an ISTJ had control issues over other people. This was her defense mechanism to make the world seem less chaotic. I love her dearly and you spun that into something it was not intended. I stated this is probably where I started my abilities to want control over myself. I still can recognize that my mother needs this in her life to feel stable. Not everyone wants to look on the other side of the curtain, not everyone wants to open it up and see the void of uncertainty and that control is an illusion. Again, I'm not fond of controlling others, I, however, feel even with the knowledge that it's all an illusion that I want to control my words, actions, and behavior. If I Fi/Te bitch slap someone, it's on purpose and I take full responsibility for that lash out.

Thanks for the testimony and insight into the cognition of an ENFP.
Sorry, but I find this statement to be void and empty of any real meaning since you twisted my insight into your own. When I meant I don't react well to my words being minced, I meant it.

 

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The term "control"(or controling) is only "hinted at" in most type descriptions. For example 16personalities mentions it 3 times but avoids elaborating. If you look at "first hand accounts" it's debated more openly.
I think you're misunderstanding the concept. I control what I do and get testy when someone tells me to do it differently -- emphasis on "I" and "me" (in fact, everything about ISTPs starts with "I" and "me"). As long other people don't interfere with that, we really couldn't care less what they do. I suspect ISTPs would often be quite hands-off parents -- the opposite of helicopter-mums, so to say.

---

Anyway, regarding the topic: What do people think about the appeal of jealousy? Like, someone getting all jealous and possessive over (someone approaching) you ... this can be an interesting thing (in moderate doses, perhaps)?
 

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Anyway, regarding the topic: What do people think about the appeal of jealousy? Like, someone getting all jealous and possessive over (someone approaching) you ... this can be an interesting thing (in moderate doses, perhaps)?
If I’m in a relationship with them I guess I’ll find it extremely offensive and humorous all at once . If it’s someone who’s jealous over the prospect of me saying hi to their partner - I guess I would feel uncomfortable.
Off topic but while reading this I couldn’t help but think about my eldest before he turned 2 - every time my partner hold my hands or hug me - my son would throw a tantrum or start crying ; it’s cute at that age - ridiculous but cute


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So... a few things.

#1. I experience jealousy. Or else I think I do (more later on analyzing the name I give to my emotion)I am still very much an ENFP. Some ENFPs do not experience jealousy as @ai.tran.75 can attest to her own experience. We have had these discussions before among ourselves. My INFP husband who is an Enneagram 9 also does not experience jealousy... and actually I’d love to talk to other 9s about that because I have wanted my husband to be a bit jealous in the past and he really can’t experience it. I have thought a lot about why this is and I’m still exploring it. I would not be able to come up with a succinct answer for you yet if ever.

There has already been some talk about ENFPs and the idea that if you love someone you cannot cheat on them by @ENFPathetic. Actually, Romantic love could arguably be a construct that NFs,through our writings, have conceptualized and promoted and that perhaps more thinking types feel pressured to adopt. I’m not even sure than other types experience relationships in exactly the same way. An INFJ friend discussed this with me just last week. Anyway, coming to the realization that you can be attracted to someone else and yet be in love still with your partner might be hard for some NFs, as discussed by @ENFPathetic. Basically it could be that if you believe that love makes it so that you can’t be interested in others then... wouldn’t knowing that your partner loves you put you completely at ease?

However, I agree with the idea that commitment despite attraction for others is important. I think a bit of jealousy that does not lead to any violence nor to any resentment can be sexy by way of teasing that commitment a bit. Choosing someone because of love despite attraction to others. Anyway, I’m not sure if I feel this right now, but in the past I want my husband to be jealous of when someone else is attracted to me. I want him protecting that commitment and not taking my commitment or love for granted. As for me being jealous I think it is just a show of the protectiveness and possessiveness that I feel for my husband and my relationship with him. It can be a bit sexy. I want it to be viewed as sexy by my husband.

I would never want anyone jealous that cannot control their actions when they are feeling strong emotions. Most feelers are very very good at controlling actions and demeanor when feeling a high amount of emotion and that control due to moral values is important to me in myself and in others. So in myself I don’t mind that I feel jealousy when it can re-affirm the importance of my husband to me and when i can use it to re-affirm our commitment to one another. I can then use it to promote our relationship and reinforce its importance to both of us.

Now that being said, I don’t know if the emotion I am attributing to jealousy is experienced differently by others and would be called something different by others because when I analyze it I am not wishing to detract from what someone else has. Like if my husband left me for another woman, I doubt I would hate or begrudge that woman of any happiness. Instead I would feel an intense, acute, and miserable sense of loss. So maybe I don’t experience jealousy like others do? Instead just understanding and pre-experiencing (if you will) the intensity of what I know I would experience with that loss.

I think about friendships where I felt “jealous” and what I was experiencing was like loss or a “pre-loss”. I mean... I think emotions of a “pre” sort happen to us ENFPs often because we sometimes know what we will feel if something happens. I’m not the only ENFP who has said this. We pre-mourn the death of loved ones and pets. Because we can experience emotions in story form, if we know through Ne the story that is laid out in front of us, if we’ve felt anything of the sort before, then we know fairly well how we will feel when or if we are in a particular circumstance.

So... that may have to do with your question.

Actually... going around experiencing emotions from possible stories is what we do a lot of through art literature music and theater. ENFPs want to understand every part of the human condition. That’s what we do. That’s what we explore.

Another area we’ve barely touched but that is somehow involved in jealousy is feelings of protectiveness and possessiveness. ENFPs don’t usually feel controlling of others (protectiveness and possessiveness seem like they are from the same camp)

2. ISTP parents are very uncontrolling in general and sometimes so extremely uncontrolling that they don’t provide enough guidelines and/or sometimes don’t teach their kids skills they themselves have (sometimes they do). They are probably one of the least controlling of all types, just look at the function stack to know that. Pop
 

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Anyway, regarding the topic: What do people think about the appeal of jealousy? Like, someone getting all jealous and possessive over (someone approaching) you ... this can be an interesting thing (in moderate doses, perhaps)?
I've answered this topic before and probably in the minority.

Jealousy and possessiveness are two different things.

Jealousy implies insecurity and the resentful/indignant feeling of wanting something you don't have or thought you deserved.
It's lame and unwanted in a potential partner.

Possessiveness (within moderation) on the other hand is sexy to me. I love to feel wanted and I like a dominating - territorial kind of guy. That's me though because I'm naturally a sub/switch.

So I love the appeal of possessiveness, but not jealousy.
 

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I've answered this topic before and probably in the minority.

Jealousy and possessiveness are two different things.

Jealousy implies insecurity and the resentful/indignant feeling of wanting something you don't have or thought you deserved.
It's lame and unwanted in a potential partner.

Possessiveness (within moderation) on the other hand is sexy to me. I love to feel wanted and I like a dominating - territorial kind of guy. That's me though because I'm naturally a sub/switch.

So I love the appeal of possessiveness, but not jealousy.
What you describe as jealousy is called envy, the two terms are often confused in daily use.
Jealousy is insecurity over losing something you have or that you lack it, i.e. like you're going to lose your partner or your relationship isn't as strong as you thought. So, jealousy is very much related to possessiveness, it's at least one of the underlying emotions that creates that behavior.
 

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I've answered this topic before and probably in the minority.

Jealousy and possessiveness are two different things.

Jealousy implies insecurity and the resentful/indignant feeling of wanting something you don't have or thought you deserved.
It's lame and unwanted in a potential partner.

Possessiveness (within moderation) on the other hand is sexy to me. I love to feel wanted and I like a dominating - territorial kind of guy. That's me though because I'm naturally a sub/switch.

So I love the appeal of possessiveness, but not jealousy.
I can agree with this.
 

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Haha, yeah. I remember you agreeing with another post of mine that said something similar.
I believe you like dom men too right NIHM? If you don't mind me asking, does your relationship with your husband resonate with this?
Yes, it does. I wrote the paragraph below to someone but it's still pretty true today.

I certainly would never expect the person I chose to be with to have a conscience that is one dimensional. I hope he's complex with all the things that human beings are. Someone who is kind, good, and yet can see the grey in things. Yes, I prefer a dominant male but not one that is always of a preeminence stature. It's hard to explain. Someone who can be intense in bed yet also loving and soft in ecstasy. A contradiction in terms. People are so complex and have so many emotions to them I would never expect him to be the stronger one all the time. I feel a relationship is about us both bringing strengths into it. He won't always be the rock, I can be the rock for him too.

My husband is probably a switch but leans Dom. He's actually very perfect, enough of dom to give my sub side that little treat and still allow me the ability to be equal in the relationship. He dominates me only in certain areas of our partnership and I enjoy it. My best friend and I were talking about it with each other and out of all the men in the family my husband is the dominant male personality. He is the oldest but his brothers look up to him. His INFJ brother is actually very submissive. INFJ males I find half and a half on that subject. Some can be dominating and others can be submissive. INFP males I find really submissive, I love being their friends but I haven't been able to really get my sub fantasies in with them. I did have fun with two INFPS, where one of them I wanted to explore dominating (wondering if I had it all wrong) but yeah the night was fun for him but not for me. Then the other INFP I briefly had fun with and cherish his opinion as a friend tried to do the whole dominant thing back but I could tell he wasn't as into it and probably enjoyed firmer females. I felt he was into me but when it came to the sexual encounters we just lacked luster. Of course, that's just examining males I know from this site and ones I've met in person, a small sample if I think about it. Not enough to define it as written law or even a theorem paper for peer review.

My husband has a firmness to him yet he's kind to me. He does advocate equality in our relationship but knows that I enjoy a dominant and powerful presence in the bedroom. He has no issue in delivering that fantasy. So far I haven't met any INTJ, that has an issue with it some actually might be too dominant. As you stated moderation. I don't need to be controlled in every part of my life. Just certain areas I like that control to be taken away from me. I found out at an early age I'm extremely attracted to it. Almost addicted to it. I'm not to the point of a masochist but I like the control dom aspect. I always try to point out when people think I like pain because I state I want someone to dominate me, I explain a masochist derives pleasure from receiving pain from their partner. A submissive derives pleasure from submitting to the will and command of their partner. You can also be a masochist without being submissive. So I'm not sure why some people mix up the terms interchangeably.

Being submissive in the bedroom doesn't mean I'm a doormat outside of that area. I'm a very strong female with a strong Te. I know someone asked me what the point of being an advocate for female rights if I was submissive in the bedroom. It's an example of extreme trust for your partner not to hurt you. I also comprehend a person's carnal idiosyncrasies and quirks do not (usually) translate from the bedroom to the exterior domain of that system. There is something actually primal and biological about it. I'm transferring some degree of power or control with authority to my partner.

I don't like to be controlled in everyday routines and might even react badly to even my words being minced by a stranger but in the bedroom, I relish the thought of losing that control. So yeah it would point an even bigger issue in the OPs reasoning of his original post.
 

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Yes, it does. I wrote the paragraph below to someone but it's still pretty true today.

I certainly would never expect the person I chose to be with to have a conscience that is one dimensional. I hope he's complex with all the things that human beings are. Someone who is kind, good, and yet can see the grey in things. Yes, I prefer a dominant male but not one that is always of a preeminence stature. It's hard to explain. Someone who can be intense in bed yet also loving and soft in ecstasy. A contradiction in terms. People are so complex and have so many emotions to them I would never expect him to be the stronger one all the time. I feel a relationship is about us both bringing strengths into it. He won't always be the rock, I can be the rock for him too.

My husband is probably a switch but leans Dom. He's actually very perfect, enough of dom to give my sub side that little treat and still allow me the ability to be equal in the relationship. He dominates me only in certain areas of our partnership and I enjoy it. My best friend and I were talking about it with each other and out of all the men in the family my husband is the dominant male personality. He is the oldest but his brothers look up to him. His INFJ brother is actually very submissive. INFJ males I find half and a half on that subject. Some can be dominating and others can be submissive. INFP males I find really submissive, I love being their friends but I haven't been able to really get my sub fantasies in with them. I did have fun with two INFPS, where one of them I wanted to explore dominating (wondering if I had it all wrong) but yeah the night was fun for him but not for me. Then the other INFP I briefly had fun with and cherish his opinion as a friend tried to do the whole dominant thing back but I could tell he wasn't as into it and probably enjoyed firmer females. I felt he was into me but when it came to the sexual encounters we just lacked luster. Of course, that's just examining males I know from this site and ones I've met in person, a small sample if I think about it. Not enough to define it as written law or even a theorem paper for peer review.

My husband has a firmness to him yet he's kind to me. He does advocate equality in our relationship but knows that I enjoy a dominant and powerful presence in the bedroom. He has no issue in delivering that fantasy. So far I haven't met any INTJ, that has an issue with it some actually might be too dominant. As you stated moderation. I don't need to be controlled in every part of my life. Just certain areas I like that control to be taken away from me. I found out at an early age I'm extremely attracted to it. Almost addicted to it. I'm not to the point of a masochist but I like the control dom aspect. I always try to point out when people think I like pain because I state I want someone to dominate me, I explain a masochist derives pleasure from receiving pain from their partner. A submissive derives pleasure from submitting to the will and command of their partner. You can also be a masochist without being submissive. So I'm not sure why some people mix up the terms interchangeably.

Being submissive in the bedroom doesn't mean I'm a doormat outside of that area. I'm a very strong female with a strong Te. I know someone asked me what the point of being an advocate for female rights if I was submissive in the bedroom. It's an example of extreme trust for your partner not to hurt you. I also comprehend a person's carnal idiosyncrasies and quirks do not (usually) translate from the bedroom to the exterior domain of that system. There is something actually primal and biological about it. I'm transferring some degree of power or control with authority to my partner.

I don't like to be controlled in everyday routines and might even react badly to even my words being minced by a stranger but in the bedroom, I relish the thought of losing that control. So yeah it would point an even bigger issue in the OPs reasoning of his original post.
Ugh, this is so beautifully written. I'm happy you have found the relationship that's perfect for you though! @solarnis *wink wink*

And yeah, submissive-ness doesn't equal being a doormat outside of the bedroom. You and I are surely proof of that lol.
 

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Jealousy is a petty emotion. I think the Ne in us could care less about stupid things that make people feel inadequate.

Instead, we tend to be happy for others. That's a part of being spiritually connected.. we recognize that everyone has their own human potential, their own unique gifts and talents waiting to be discovered and expressed...

Maybe a part of it too stems from healthy role-models. My parents were never toxic in comparing themselves with others. They were pretty relaxed people, in general (although mom could be very tough on me- she always was always will be- but that's mostly from traditional parenting).

I notice jealousy stemming from families in which people are taught that competition makes you a "better" person. The notions of competition just wasn't a huge factor in my family. We were always more about cooperation. Some (toxic) family members can be like this.

Plus, what does jealousy accomplish anyway? It's a spiral-down effect leading to nowhere. Being happy for others as your happiness is just as important as others' (egalitarian) is far more liberating. You can then focus on areas of interest that fascinate you, and intrigue you so you can further develop as a human being. And, not everyone is on the same path. Diversity is a great strength, and something to be celebrated and PROUD about, on a spiritual level too!! (it's like a painting with various strokes -when you compose an image together, it works, creates interest, depth and meaning, sort of like an impressionist's or watercolor painting- it's abstract and keeps your attention, because it's so vague- each stroke is so different and beautiful in its own way).

Expecting people to be the same cliche cookie-cutter mentality gets old. Ne invites all sorts of differences. It is the lifeblood of our existence! :)
 

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there's lots of sources of "jealousy" over infidelity.

1. person is a cheater themselves (or at least has been), expects people to do as they would
2. fear of abandonment - general fear loved ones will not stick around
3. deep insecurities/inferiority complex - im not good enough
4. foreboding/trust issues - projecting previous pains into the future/this person don't trust anyone
5. controlling types - various reasons, feel most comfortable in control of others

difficult to pin this on a specific type, reasons for these are deeply psychological, lots of factors. Trends among ENFP likely connected to the expression of jealousy, not necessarily that this type more oriented to it.
 
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