There are a lot of stereotypes out there that may or may not be true about 4w3's and 4w5's. What do you believe is true? What made you figure out your wing? What confused you about your wing? To be honest, I fit a lot of the stereotypes of the 3 wing, but I thought I was a 5 wing at first -- I think that was due to my INFJ characteristics looking like 5. I will write some of my own ideas in the comments later. Though I want to admit I'm still not an expert on differentiating between wings.
Key Differences Between 4w3 and 4w5?
[Enneagram Type 4]
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I think a big difference between a 4w5 and a 4w3 is has to do with image consciousness and how it affects interactions with people. 4w3's seem to tend to filter or censor their "weirdness". They mete it out in small doses and try to focus on expressing the positive aspects of their uniqueness. They are selective in what they show and how they show it.
4w5's are much less selective about what they show and more focused on how much they show. If 4w5 is feeling accepted and appreciated they will often be very expressive. If they feel ridiculed, rejected, misunderstood, or persecuted then they tend to withdraw and show very little of their inner selves.
4w5's are much less selective about what they show and more focused on how much they show. If 4w5 is feeling accepted and appreciated they will often be very expressive. If they feel ridiculed, rejected, misunderstood, or persecuted then they tend to withdraw and show very little of their inner selves.
Hmm, if this was the case I need to reexamine myself lol. When deciding between the two, I won't deny that the 5 wing sounded much more appealing than the 3 wing, particularly as a guy. The 3 wing kept talking about having public outbursts to express 4ness and I was thinking . . . yeah. No, not me. Dunno.
For myself, I think the problem is not really knowing any 4s in real life and having met them in person so I can gauge their wings in comparison to mine. Also somewhere I read 4s are very varied, just with the base mythology of loss/longing. I think that would make it doubly hard to categorize between wings. That and I also think everyone is probably a little bit of both, just one is stronger than the other and context causes you to change (I know I act melodramatic at times though that might be me disintegrating to an unhealthy 2).
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This is just a random thought off the top of my head, but I'm starting to wonder if this is a difference between a 4w3 and a 4w5: the 4w3's deepest darkest fear is that everyone will find them unlikable, unacceptable, unlovable whereas the 4w5's greatest fear is that they will hate themselves. The difference here is in their greatest desire (which is also their greatest need and weakness): other's love versus self-love.
Personally, making sure I love myself is a much bigger struggle than getting others' love. By that I don't mean that everybody adores me or anything, I just mean that maintaining love for myself is a greater concern for me and something I spend infinitely more time and effort agonizing over. Others' acceptance is a secondary concern, and it's not even a close second.
There's a big part of me that wants to blame myself for everything that goes wrong, give myself no credit for anything good, and convince me that I'm worthless and that I should hate myself. I don't give in to it nor do I believe it to be true, but it's still a constant battle. I just balance out all the self-hate with self-love. I strive for unconditional self-acceptance, because that is my only hope for victory. I actually feel that I'm doing pretty well, but the war is far from over.
Personally, making sure I love myself is a much bigger struggle than getting others' love. By that I don't mean that everybody adores me or anything, I just mean that maintaining love for myself is a greater concern for me and something I spend infinitely more time and effort agonizing over. Others' acceptance is a secondary concern, and it's not even a close second.
There's a big part of me that wants to blame myself for everything that goes wrong, give myself no credit for anything good, and convince me that I'm worthless and that I should hate myself. I don't give in to it nor do I believe it to be true, but it's still a constant battle. I just balance out all the self-hate with self-love. I strive for unconditional self-acceptance, because that is my only hope for victory. I actually feel that I'm doing pretty well, but the war is far from over.
If this was it, I'm back to 4w5.
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@Bumblyjack, I could identify with anything you wrote about yourself and the struggle with loving yourself. It's something I believe all 4s will identify with, regardless of the wing.
About 4w3s fears you mentioned, I identify with that also, but I think I attach it more to my social instinct rather to my wing (Or one reinforced the other). To support this I'll mention unico and Aviv Geffen, both 4w3s, the former Sp-dom the latter Sx-dom. unico once said she don't care that much if others don't like her as long as they don't hurt her. Aviv, as a teen singer, knew most of the country hated him because of his eccentric in-your-face personality, and he was fine with it and even waved with it as a sign of pride. He probably thought it's unique to be hated for your art because people can't eat his feelings, something that makes him even more authentic and deep. However, it could easily be a defensive mechanism and deep down he felt agonized over being unloved by so many people. Take Morrissey in example, another 4w3. He was also very aware of people hating him, I don't think it bothered him that much. Then again, maybe both sacrificed something of themselves for the sake of their art.
Anyway, I must say that lately I find myself pretty confused since revealed the power of the tritypes and instincts and how they make types differ; I still try to re-arrange all my knowledge, and it's not working too well as for now.
To one of the topic's questions, what made me realize my wing was my extreme image-conciousness, my competitive nature, my ambition and passion towards life, my contradicting nature of being a 4 and an extreme introvert yet can act very extroverted when around people, my expressive and overly dramatic nature, the constant fantasies of performing in front of a crowd and be admired, my social masks and the elite image projected to others etc'. All of these are things that were valid through all my life, but nowadays I'm much more mature, aware and less ego-driven, so I'm much more authentic and connected to my deeper nature and don't follow my wing's wishes that contradict my 4ness. In example, while I'm still a competitive person, I don't put much emphasis for some time now about winning. I take it much more easy, since I know winning ain't that important unless there's a really important cause behind it. As a child I was more competitive than a core 3.
About 4w3s fears you mentioned, I identify with that also, but I think I attach it more to my social instinct rather to my wing (Or one reinforced the other). To support this I'll mention unico and Aviv Geffen, both 4w3s, the former Sp-dom the latter Sx-dom. unico once said she don't care that much if others don't like her as long as they don't hurt her. Aviv, as a teen singer, knew most of the country hated him because of his eccentric in-your-face personality, and he was fine with it and even waved with it as a sign of pride. He probably thought it's unique to be hated for your art because people can't eat his feelings, something that makes him even more authentic and deep. However, it could easily be a defensive mechanism and deep down he felt agonized over being unloved by so many people. Take Morrissey in example, another 4w3. He was also very aware of people hating him, I don't think it bothered him that much. Then again, maybe both sacrificed something of themselves for the sake of their art.
Anyway, I must say that lately I find myself pretty confused since revealed the power of the tritypes and instincts and how they make types differ; I still try to re-arrange all my knowledge, and it's not working too well as for now.
To one of the topic's questions, what made me realize my wing was my extreme image-conciousness, my competitive nature, my ambition and passion towards life, my contradicting nature of being a 4 and an extreme introvert yet can act very extroverted when around people, my expressive and overly dramatic nature, the constant fantasies of performing in front of a crowd and be admired, my social masks and the elite image projected to others etc'. All of these are things that were valid through all my life, but nowadays I'm much more mature, aware and less ego-driven, so I'm much more authentic and connected to my deeper nature and don't follow my wing's wishes that contradict my 4ness. In example, while I'm still a competitive person, I don't put much emphasis for some time now about winning. I take it much more easy, since I know winning ain't that important unless there's a really important cause behind it. As a child I was more competitive than a core 3.
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As a 4w3 from a single test, my greatest fear is likely fear of being rejected and subsequently distancing my self from people in order to negate that possibility. This isn't to say that I don't socialize- I'm quite natural at it actually. But rejection really bites me when I believe I have been rejected (strong emotions can play into a cycle in this way).
That being said, I'm normally not consciously concerned with this- I only feel bad when it becomes apparent to me. Most of the time I'm witty and fun to be around.
That being said, I'm normally not consciously concerned with this- I only feel bad when it becomes apparent to me. Most of the time I'm witty and fun to be around.
I felt this exactly until I learned to take myself slightly less seriously. In fact- this trait is what's causing me to sway in my MBTI typing, I think I'm introverted- yet can be pretty outgoing out times. It's freaky- still not certain about my type, because of the enneagram distraction.
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I'm not sure, but I wonder if anyone can pick out the differences from this:
- Inherently I'm extroverted, therefore all the things that come with being extroverted apply: I need friends [but close intimate friends]
- I need to be viewed positively by my friends otherwise I feel the urge to end relationships on a whim as soon as the first sign of trouble starts. Trouble is usually a fight or conflict. I carry the conflict for as long as I can, and then I get drained and I terminate my friendships. I do feel somewhat guilty but vindicated as well. I'd rather not have any bad/conflict-ridden relationships if I can help it.
- I love to explore new ideas and thoughts. I learn very quickly.
- Many times I find myself learning new things in order to be able to communicate effectively with others. I find that the more I know, the more confident I feel and the better conversations I can have.
- I like being adored / admired by youngsters because they have a tendency to look up to me and I have been taken on as a role model by many kids in my life.
- I'm always looking for answers to why and then making my own theories after the new information sinks in. Usually my ideas are incomplete and poorly researched. But I can make it sound like I know a lot more than I really do because I have strong expression skills [which are a product of the mythos: "Fake it till you make it".
- Whenever I get interested in something, I go into relative depth but not as much as I should in order to get extremely good at it. I lose interest when I realize that it isn't going to lead to as much benefit as I feel that it should.
- I like to be appreciated for what I know, but I don't like to be complimented for it all the time. I like genuine, meaningful compliments.
- I prefer to only compose music, do photography for my own sake. I enjoy it because it makes me feel good. I like to share what I create with those I'm intimate with because I want them to love it / appreciate it as much as I do. I share my music because I like to share how I'm feeling. I suppose sometimes I do it because I want empathy and for another person to try to immerse themselves in my expression and feel close to what I feel, or felt when I created it.
- Sometimes I like to brag a little as well, but I almost always put myself down because I don't want to come across as being proud or arrogant. I've been told in the past that I have a very arrogant demeanour, but I could never understand why someone would think I'm arrogant.
- I sabotage myself when things are going well. Sometimes because I want to sabotage a good thing in order to continue to feel bad, or "because I like to have a story of woe to tell."
- I have been called self-pitying but calm, resilient and weak, persevering and lazy all at the same time.
- I have moments of absolute clarity and one-ness with the world where I feel like I'm absolutely driven to chase after my goals with a passionate vigour --- but I can always only go so far before I either sabotage myself, or get sabotaged by my circumstances.
- I always have a story to tell about myself even though many times I just want to listen.
- I spent much of my childhood lost in a world of new ideas, gaining knowledge and coming up with my own philosophies. A lot of my ideas expressed in my blogs have been compared to ideas presented by other philosophers.
- I have been told that I'm consistent in my views.
- I can be extremely stubborn and rigid when it comes to getting what I want - but I've also been extremely self-sacrificing and giving at the same time.
- I have always withdrawn into my shell whenever things aren't going well. At times I've also done the exact opposite where I've sought someone empathic to listen to my life stories and understand all that I've gone through.
- I became extremely bitter and vengeful at one point when I was abandoned by my friends and many of them I have yet to forgive.
- Externally I've blamed others for my emotional problems, but internally, I've also always known deep-down that I'm responsible for many [if not all] of my own problems and failures.
- I've always had a deep empathic connection with my 3w4 INFJ mother. She's listened to and understood all of my problems and encouraged me to be the way that I am all my life. She's shared in my troubles equally and we have a connection that I fear if I lose, I will really lose a part of my soul. I'm usually at my worst whenever things are going poorly between mom and I.
- In fact, I'm almost always at my worst when one of my relationships has, or started to go sour. But after the relationship has gone sour, I almost always justify that it was supposed to go sour [if not today, then tomorrow, right?] and I either go out and seek new relationships, or immerse myself in some new hobby or interest which allows me to express my feelings.
Now ... I'm not even sure which Enneagram Type all of this relates to.
- Inherently I'm extroverted, therefore all the things that come with being extroverted apply: I need friends [but close intimate friends]
- I need to be viewed positively by my friends otherwise I feel the urge to end relationships on a whim as soon as the first sign of trouble starts. Trouble is usually a fight or conflict. I carry the conflict for as long as I can, and then I get drained and I terminate my friendships. I do feel somewhat guilty but vindicated as well. I'd rather not have any bad/conflict-ridden relationships if I can help it.
- I love to explore new ideas and thoughts. I learn very quickly.
- Many times I find myself learning new things in order to be able to communicate effectively with others. I find that the more I know, the more confident I feel and the better conversations I can have.
- I like being adored / admired by youngsters because they have a tendency to look up to me and I have been taken on as a role model by many kids in my life.
- I'm always looking for answers to why and then making my own theories after the new information sinks in. Usually my ideas are incomplete and poorly researched. But I can make it sound like I know a lot more than I really do because I have strong expression skills [which are a product of the mythos: "Fake it till you make it".
- Whenever I get interested in something, I go into relative depth but not as much as I should in order to get extremely good at it. I lose interest when I realize that it isn't going to lead to as much benefit as I feel that it should.
- I like to be appreciated for what I know, but I don't like to be complimented for it all the time. I like genuine, meaningful compliments.
- I prefer to only compose music, do photography for my own sake. I enjoy it because it makes me feel good. I like to share what I create with those I'm intimate with because I want them to love it / appreciate it as much as I do. I share my music because I like to share how I'm feeling. I suppose sometimes I do it because I want empathy and for another person to try to immerse themselves in my expression and feel close to what I feel, or felt when I created it.
- Sometimes I like to brag a little as well, but I almost always put myself down because I don't want to come across as being proud or arrogant. I've been told in the past that I have a very arrogant demeanour, but I could never understand why someone would think I'm arrogant.
- I sabotage myself when things are going well. Sometimes because I want to sabotage a good thing in order to continue to feel bad, or "because I like to have a story of woe to tell."
- I have been called self-pitying but calm, resilient and weak, persevering and lazy all at the same time.
- I have moments of absolute clarity and one-ness with the world where I feel like I'm absolutely driven to chase after my goals with a passionate vigour --- but I can always only go so far before I either sabotage myself, or get sabotaged by my circumstances.
- I always have a story to tell about myself even though many times I just want to listen.
- I spent much of my childhood lost in a world of new ideas, gaining knowledge and coming up with my own philosophies. A lot of my ideas expressed in my blogs have been compared to ideas presented by other philosophers.
- I have been told that I'm consistent in my views.
- I can be extremely stubborn and rigid when it comes to getting what I want - but I've also been extremely self-sacrificing and giving at the same time.
- I have always withdrawn into my shell whenever things aren't going well. At times I've also done the exact opposite where I've sought someone empathic to listen to my life stories and understand all that I've gone through.
- I became extremely bitter and vengeful at one point when I was abandoned by my friends and many of them I have yet to forgive.
- Externally I've blamed others for my emotional problems, but internally, I've also always known deep-down that I'm responsible for many [if not all] of my own problems and failures.
- I've always had a deep empathic connection with my 3w4 INFJ mother. She's listened to and understood all of my problems and encouraged me to be the way that I am all my life. She's shared in my troubles equally and we have a connection that I fear if I lose, I will really lose a part of my soul. I'm usually at my worst whenever things are going poorly between mom and I.
- In fact, I'm almost always at my worst when one of my relationships has, or started to go sour. But after the relationship has gone sour, I almost always justify that it was supposed to go sour [if not today, then tomorrow, right?] and I either go out and seek new relationships, or immerse myself in some new hobby or interest which allows me to express my feelings.
Now ... I'm not even sure which Enneagram Type all of this relates to.
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Discounting the Extroverted part (not sure for myself) a lot of what you say is utterly applicable to me. In fact, I see more obvious enneagram connections than I do MBTI match up.
My mother and I also share a very close relationship, as she was the one that listened to all of the stress that pent up within. I love philosophy as well, and learn certain things quickly. When I'm stressed learning is a lot harder (I'm almost paralyzed) by the supposition that I am incapable of learning!
I'm a bit confused here on how I fit into everyone's classifications of 4w3's and 4w5's, though I am sure I'm a 4w3 and I'm pretty sure everyone here would consider me a 4w3 over a 4w5. I am pretty image conscious and am careful with how I portray myself -- I want to come across as authentically "me" as possible. What @Arienette said is true and I don't really care how much I am liked, as long as I'm not being bullied. I have plenty of experience with not being liked and it didn't really scar me. As long as I'm accepted by some and feel understood by some with some intense relationships I'm fine. My weak spot is people thinking I'm a "bad" person -- I do care very much about not being thought of as a morally/ethically "bad" person. I don't know if 4w5's would care as much about that as I do. I have gone through phases of being very extroverted in my eccentricity and alternating in putting on a clear social mask, faking normalcy in order to have an easier life.
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^^I think that's where one clear difference is between me and other types. Generally I've noticed that people [regardless of type] because less able to exercise their mental capabilities. Distracting myself with learning new things is usually one of my first gut reactions when there's stress in my relationships - which I suppose could be translated to as being liked or disliked has very little impact on me. I dislike being disliked - but if someone completely disagrees with what I've said, instead of internalizing the hurt or conceding defeat, I go back and further cement my knowledge ... Then I usually withdraw with my new found perspective and knowledge and become satisfied in knowing internally that I've gained something new. I'm usually unconcerned by how others view me.
It is only in the case of relationships where I'm "trapped" and cannot break those relationships where I'm sensitive to whether they like me or not. I want the people I like to like me in return. I can't stand to be in any relationships where there's even an iota of doubt there - until and unless it's one of those relationships that cannot be ended [like blood relationships, or relationships of my spouse/SO].
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@Jawz, clear your inbox so I can reply to you!
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A lot of stuff people associate with 4w5s is just 4 stuff in general. Heavy introversion, drawn to intellectualism, being withdrawn, having a dark/morbid side, etc, that is just typical 4 stuff.
On the other hand, a misconception I've read in profiles is that 4w3s are more image focused...this may be slightly true because they have a double image type, so to speak, but I see that 3 aspect as manifesting in their social image more. The cultivation of a unique visual image can be a common 4 thing in general (ie. self-expression via their dress/grooming), and a 4w5 may put considerable effort into their visual image too. I mean, consider many famous people who are typed 4w5; they often have very crafted, unique styles. I say this because I'm a typical 4 in being something of an aesthete and creating an identity partially via my appearance. I've seen this idea that 4w5s are disinterested in their own visual image & may just cop some black & minimalistic garb, but I suspect this is more likely 5w4 (if we're making style generalizations). That's really the only aspect of 4w3s that I relate to more than 4w5, and it seems inaccurate at that.
When I read the 4w3 descriptions, I found it more appealing though. It sounded like someone who was considerably more functional in life. My first reaction was, well, to be envious. I felt like I didn't have those qualities, like I was more cursed than these 4s who have this 3 "advantage". The 4w5 descriptions can be very dark....they often end with this description of a 4w5 descending into this mental misery of dark feelings & hopelessness. Whereas 4w3s get a slightly lighter "they can do well for a bit before self-sabotaging" slant.
I still feel like I don't have those 3 qualities, but I see the 4w5 "fate" as less dire. I related heavily to the 5 mindset, so much so I almost considered for it my type (but I am clearly a 4). The need to understand things to feel more equipped in life & fear of being overwhelmed by external forces is big with me. I feel like the world takes a lot, and I don't have enough to give.
To me, the 3 vs 4 wing in a nutshell is a matter of what markers the type uses to affirm their uniqueness, their personal significance, to ease feeling defective. The 3 wing brings a tendency to use external markers in addition to the 4 inner ideals & to accomplish things in reality - the person wants to do things which assert they are special, which sets them apart from others, and which lives up to their inner ideal while being admired a bit too. Being different & unique is always going to trump being likable or successful (which are mainly sought when they affirm their uniqueness), and a fear of not being able to live their ideals or to fail at their goals can cause them to withdraw.
The 5 wing brings about a tendency for the 4 to doubt their ability to meet the demands of the world. There is the 5 anxiety that they don't have enough energy or the skills to live up to their 4 fantasy ideals. They'll seek to feel more competent by storing up mental/emotional energy in isolation & gaining niche knowledge, and this will certainly magnify how they are different from others, which alienates them but also maintains their 4 ego of being special. They are using double internal markers so to speak - the 4 inner ideal & 5 competency seeking/energy hoarding to craft an inner identity that someday they may actually seek to establish in reality, once they feel equipped enough to do it without sacrificing who they are.
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A lot of stuff people associate with 4w5s is just 4 stuff in general. Heavy introversion, drawn to intellectualism, being withdrawn, having a dark/morbid side, etc, that is just typical 4 stuff.
On the other hand, a misconception I've read in profiles is that 4w3s are more image focused...this may be slightly true because they have a double image type, so to speak, but I see that 3 aspect as manifesting in their social image more. The cultivation of a unique visual image can be a common 4 thing in general (ie. self-expression via their dress/grooming), and a 4w5 may put considerable effort into their visual image too. I mean, consider many famous people who are typed 4w5; they often have very crafted, unique styles. I say this because I'm a typical 4 in being something of an aesthete and creating an identity partially via my appearance. I've seen this idea that 4w5s are disinterested in their own visual image & may just cop some black & minimalistic garb, but I suspect this is more likely 5w4 (if we're making style generalizations). That's really the only aspect of 4w3s that I relate to more than 4w5, and it seems inaccurate at that.
When I read the 4w3 descriptions, I found it more appealing though. It sounded like someone who was considerably more functional in life. My first reaction was, well, to be envious. I felt like I didn't have those qualities, like I was more cursed than these 4s who have this 3 "advantage". The 4w5 descriptions can be very dark....they often end with this description of a 4w5 descending into this mental misery of dark feelings & hopelessness. Whereas 4w3s get a slightly lighter "they can do well for a bit before self-sabotaging" slant.
I still feel like I don't have those 3 qualities, but I see the 4w5 "fate" as less dire. I related heavily to the 5 mindset, so much so I almost considered for it my type (but I am clearly a 4). The need to understand things to feel more equipped in life & fear of being overwhelmed by external forces is big with me. I feel like the world takes a lot, and I don't have enough to give.
To me, the 3 vs 4 wing in a nutshell is a matter of what markers the type uses to affirm their uniqueness, their personal significance, to ease feeling defective. The 3 wing brings a tendency to use external markers in addition to the 4 inner ideals & to accomplish things in reality - the person wants to do things which assert they are special, which sets them apart from others, and which lives up to their inner ideal while being admired a bit too. Being different & unique is always going to trump being likable or successful (which are mainly sought when they affirm their uniqueness), and a fear of not being able to live their ideals or to fail at their goals can cause them to withdraw.
The 5 wing brings about a tendency for the 4 to doubt their ability to meet the demands of the world. There is the 5 anxiety that they don't have enough energy or the skills to live up to their 4 fantasy ideals. They'll seek to feel more competent by storing up mental/emotional energy in isolation & gaining niche knowledge, and this will certainly magnify how they are different from others, which alienates them but also maintains their 4 ego of being special. They are using double internal markers so to speak - the 4 inner ideal & 5 competency seeking/energy hoarding to craft an inner identity that someday they may actually seek to establish in reality, once they feel equipped enough to do it without sacrificing who they are.
I have my own hypothesis. When I first read the descriptions of type Four wings, I thought just like you did. I related to the 4w5 and thought I am somehow less Fourish than those Fours who have a Three wing. I envied them and felt I lack certain issues and am some kind of mutant Four. I thought that Fours with a Three wing sound more "real" Fours and that I am a big misfit with my ugly Five wing.
Another Four who clearly recognized having a Three wing, described something quite similar to me except that this person found Fours with a Five wing somehow more "better" Fours. So I guess it depends on the point of view. Maybe this won't work with other Fours but somehow all the inferiority one feels toward the other wing reflects the nature of type Four anyway.
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I'm pretty sure I'm a 4w5 because I'm very private and observant, as well as intellectual. And...not all the stuff the 4w3 is... I have a concussion, don't judge me.
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I don't think this is a general, across the board difference, but I wonder at least once or twice a month if I'm actually a 5 not a 4. And every time, post substantial reflection and research, I come to the conclusion that I am a four with a very heavy 5 wing.
I read somewhere once (don't remember where) that people can present their wing side to the world more than their core type. I think that's what I do. And sometimes I even delude myself.
I've noticed a sort of continuum with fours. On one end they can seem very three, then in the middle you have the uber four, then on the other end you have the people who seem very five. I would say this probably rings true for all enneatypes.
I read somewhere once (don't remember where) that people can present their wing side to the world more than their core type. I think that's what I do. And sometimes I even delude myself.
I've noticed a sort of continuum with fours. On one end they can seem very three, then in the middle you have the uber four, then on the other end you have the people who seem very five. I would say this probably rings true for all enneatypes.
Very Fiveish observations ^_^ I quite agree with you. And when I first read about Enneagram, I was about 13 years old then, I immediately recognized myself as a Five. I could relate to it strongly. But the book I read was Wagele's and I don't think she goes very deep. Anyway, I also wonder at times whether I'm a Five after all but always end up thinking that it is not as much me as type Four.
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Type Four shares wings with Type Three (4w3) and Type Five (4w5). Both like to feel unique and creative, but they go about it in different ways.
Type Four with a Three Wing:
Type Three is associated with the desire to appear successful, and the Three Wing means that a 4w3 has a very vibrant and flashy personality. They are unique and they want everyone else to know it. They may exude this uniqueness in ways they don’t even consciously perceive; there seems to be an element of it in everything they do. They tend to be outgoing and many 4w3s are extroverts.
4w3s strongly desire to live up to their idealized image.
Type Four with a Five Wing:
Type Five is associated with detached observation, so the 4w5 is a more sedate and contemplative version of the 4w3. 4w5s find it easier to get lost within their own heads, and may identify themselves as dreamers or idealists. They are less likely to flaunt their individuality to others, and in fact, may often be oblivious to other people because they spend so much time in their heads.
4w5s possess a sense of emptiness due to their detached Five wing.
Type 4 Wings:
Type 4 with a 3 Wing (Ego-Id): A 4w3 is more in touch with their id desires, giving them a greater outward intensity than the 4w5. 4w3s are often very passionate and active.
Type 4 with a 5 Wing (Ego-Ego): The withdrawn traits of 4 and 5 combine here to create a more cerebral 4. 4w5 is usually more esoteric and mystical, and is more likely to withdraw from the world to explore their inner selves. 4w5 may be one of the most contemplative types in the enneagram.
4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.
4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.
Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".
4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.
4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.
Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.
Type Four with a Three Wing:
Type Three is associated with the desire to appear successful, and the Three Wing means that a 4w3 has a very vibrant and flashy personality. They are unique and they want everyone else to know it. They may exude this uniqueness in ways they don’t even consciously perceive; there seems to be an element of it in everything they do. They tend to be outgoing and many 4w3s are extroverts.
4w3s strongly desire to live up to their idealized image.
Type Four with a Five Wing:
Type Five is associated with detached observation, so the 4w5 is a more sedate and contemplative version of the 4w3. 4w5s find it easier to get lost within their own heads, and may identify themselves as dreamers or idealists. They are less likely to flaunt their individuality to others, and in fact, may often be oblivious to other people because they spend so much time in their heads.
4w5s possess a sense of emptiness due to their detached Five wing.
Type 4 Wings:
Type 4 with a 3 Wing (Ego-Id): A 4w3 is more in touch with their id desires, giving them a greater outward intensity than the 4w5. 4w3s are often very passionate and active.
Type 4 with a 5 Wing (Ego-Ego): The withdrawn traits of 4 and 5 combine here to create a more cerebral 4. 4w5 is usually more esoteric and mystical, and is more likely to withdraw from the world to explore their inner selves. 4w5 may be one of the most contemplative types in the enneagram.
4w3s are theatrical, dramatic, and effete. Compared to 4w5s they are generally more ambitious and competitive, and place a greater emphasis on appearing beautiful, desireable, and elite. They tend to feel entitled and exempt. They are said to be divas and aristocrats as their three wing transforms their sources of shame and defectiveness into art and expression, an aloof presentation that incorporates conventionally desireable elements into their style. They have a more glorious self-image and are more inspiration-seeking. They feel a connection with the magical as if they're part of a special class of people with secret powers. They are the outsiders who dream of magically returning to show others what they missed. The magical overtones in their persona are reminders of that to themselves. Compared to 4w5s they have more energy to keep up the act to get by in the world, but are also more likely to feel fake about it afterwards. They balance a greater ability to wear different masks with greater shame over losing their internal substance. They have an amorphous self-image that adapts to others but is in conflict with the core 4 fixation which sees it as "inauthentic". They are less likely than 4w5s to call out others for not being authentic for fear of pointing the finger back at themselves and their many contradictions.
4w3s are marked by multiple dichotomies due to types 3 and 4 being opposites in so many ways: inferior/superior, being/becoming, self-conscious/confident, putting themselves down/glorifying themselves, withdrawn/assertive, emotional/flatlined, reactive/cool-headed, mired in the past/focused on moving forward, awkward/poised, fragile/resilient, easily discouraged/do whatever it takes, rejecting the game/conquering the game. While they will put up countershame smokescreens to get your attention and see if you are perceptive enough to see and accept the real them underneath, they may seem distant to even close ones to keep up appearances. Ideally they'd have a rich emotional life without having the ugliest parts of themselves exposed.
Underneath a 4w3's more fluid identity their 4ness gives them an awareness of something truer and deeper within themselves that roots everything. Their 3 wing precludes people from seeing fully what is inside them including even themselves. However they know their personal awareness anchor is there no matter where their changeability takes them. They know on a deeper level their fluctuations stem back to a single consistent essence. Still, they wonder if they are fooling themselves. Despite their consistent underlying essence they lead an inconsistent life and wonder if they are being true to themselves. They try to balance selling themselves out in the real world with hanging out amongst the "keeping it real" crowd. They are more likely to go the distance in their career due to their three wing before their fourness causes them to sabotage themselves. In extreme cases 4w3s totally give up on life after finally "making it".
4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.
4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.
Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.
Yep, I can (sadly) relate to this. That's why I'm wondering if the subwing theory may actually be true. What do you guys think? Or maybe we have balanced wings that we use in different places and in different times.
I don't know much about the subwing theory, but it seems overcomplicating for me... Maybe I will change my mind later, though.
@SilverMoon, thank you for those descriptions! These are the kind of descriptions where I really relate much more to 4w3 than 4w5.
@SilverMoon, thank you for those descriptions! These are the kind of descriptions where I really relate much more to 4w3 than 4w5.
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