I'd also suggest you google Reynierse's revision of MBTI. I find it far better, and even more Jung-friendly.
Laying Out Carl Jung's Work; A Genius VS Horoscopes
Jung is considered one of the greatest names in psychology and for good reason. An undeniable genius, he left a footprint so deep on the field, the experts perpetually keep circling back to him when stuck. What he wrote on cognitive functions, he wrote based on career-long studying of his patients. To say his observations were massacred by MBTI is an understatement... 
Jung described:
Consciousness (subjugates the functions to itself):
• extraverted (objective reality oriented, objective relations determined, aligning with outside „objective truths“)
• introverted (self-oriented, subjective values, derives primary drive from inward information, aligns with self 1st, outside world secondary)
If most essential decisions are made extravertly/introvertly, Jung called it ATTITUDE.
When this is done habitually, he calls it extraverted/introverted TYPE.
When the person's entire life is one way oriented (for better or worse), he called it extraversion and introversion.
According to Jung, in one person, one function can be both extraverted and introverted, but the following divisions are NOT indicating that. They don't describe „introverted version“ and „extroverted version“ of the 4 functions. THERE ARE ONLY 4.
Thinking (uses its own laws to bring representations into connection - concept construct; linking up of representations by means of a concept) a type of judging, requires one to reflect
• Active (directed) thinking (done on purpose, directed; called „intellect“ by Jung) MBTI: Ti
• Passive (intuitive) thinking (not done consciously/on purpose, connections thought about establish themselves without deliberate process; called „intellectual intuition“ by Jung) MBTI: Ti + Ne
Feeling (NOT emotions/affect, but can induce them only as much as thinking can. It is an interaction between any input and ego - ego is what balances between higher moral values and lower instictive desires, in order to set up subjective set of values to determine acceptance or rejection, without concern for the intellectual connection: worth gradient) a type of judging, requires one to reflect
MBTI: Fi (sort of)
Sensation (psychological function which transmits a physical stimulus to perception; stimulus both inner - of body, and outer - of surroundings) a type of perception, just takes in without judging input
• Concrete (percieves object + details: flower,stem, color, petals; AND IMMEDIATELLY induces more processing in consciousness -> feeling toneleasure/dislike, OR additional sensation: smell, OR thoughts of info about it) MBTI: Se + Si
• Abstract (picks out the most noticeable characteristic/attribute of thing: bright RED flower; making it the sole content/principle content of consciousness, abstraction/representation compressed) chracteristic of artists MBTI: Ni introvert
Intuition (ANY input filtered trough the unconscious, doesn't need concrete reality; hunches, visions, always comes as complete/given - not to be assembled, posseses certainty) a type of perception, just takes without judging input
MBTI: Ni, Ne= fast Ni
Intuition is ONE, but may be perception of unconscious psychic data originating in the subject (while intuiting/percieving what is already within), or (also) induced by subliminal perceptions of the object and additional feelings and thoughts they evoke...doesn't involve any consciously understood path/origin to be assembled, even when induced externally.
RESULT:
8 cognitive categories: TSIF, TISF, FSIT, FIST, STFI, SFTI, ITFS, IFTS
2 consciousness versions: extraverted & introverted (trough which the 4 functions „flow“); flow indicated by 3 levels of consciousness: level 1: attitude, level2: type, level3: extravert/introvert (prolly mentally ill)
2 divisions: rational (judges the most in order to know) & irrational (percieves the most in order to know)
Judgers:
e-TSIF (Extraverted consciousness with thinking, aided by sensing, most differentiated in it... Their intuition and feeling not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-TSIF (Introverted consciousness with thinking aided by sensing, most differentiated in it... Their intuition and feeling not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-TISF (Extraverted consciousness with thinking, aided by intuition, most differentiated in it... Their sensing and feeling not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-TISF (Introverted consciousness with thinking aided by intuition, most differentiated in it... Their sensing and feeling not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-FSIT (Extraverted consciousness with feeling, aided by sensing, most differentiated in it... Their intuition and thinking not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-FSIT (Introverted consciousness with feeling aided by sensing, most differentiated in it... Their intuition and thinking not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-FIST (Extraverted consciousness with feeling, aided by intuition, most differentiated in it... Their sensing and thinking not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-FIST (Introverted consciousness with feeling aided by intuition, most differentiated in it... Their sensing and thinking not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
Percievers:
e-STFI (Extraverted consciousness with sensing, aided by thinking, most differentiated in it... Their feeling and intuition not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-STFI (Introverted consciousness with sensing aided by thinking, most differentiated in it... Their feeling and intuition not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-SFTI (Extraverted consciousness with sensing, aided by feeling, most differentiated in it... Their thinking and intuition not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-SFTI (Introverted consciousness with sensing aided by feeling, most differentiated in it... Their thinking and intuition not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-ITFS(Extraverted consciousness with intuition, aided by thinking, most differentiated in it... Their feeling and sensing not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-ITFS (Introverted consciousness with intuition, aided by thinking, most differentiated in it... Their feeling and sensing not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-IFTS (Extraverted consciousness with intuition, aided by feeling, most differentiated in it... Their thinking and sensing not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-IFTS (Introverted consciousness with intuition, aided by feeling, most differentiated in it... Their thinking and sensing not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
If only what is certain is listed, the „types“ are mere suggestions of congnition and are displayed as following:
Thinking-Sensing Extravert TSe
Thinking-Sensing Introvert TSi
Thinking-Intuiting Extravert TIe
Thinking-Intuiting Introvert TIi
Feeling-Sensing Extravert FSe
Feeling-Sensing Introvert FSi
Feeling-Intuiting Extravert FIe
Feeling-Intuiting Introvert FIi
Sensing-Thinking Extravert STe
Sensing-Thinking Introvert STi
Sensing-Feeling Extravert SFe
Sensing-Feeling Introvert SFi
Intuiting-Thinking Extravert ITe
Intuiting-Thinking Introvert ITi
Intuiting-Feeling Extravert IFe
Intuiting-Feeling Introvert Ifi
(next to each type 3 levels of consciousness introversion/extroversion can be noted, example: SFi2, TIe1, IFe3...)
Conclusion: MBTI is like a little kid drawing a bunny on daddy's tax return.
Jung described:
Consciousness (subjugates the functions to itself):
• extraverted (objective reality oriented, objective relations determined, aligning with outside „objective truths“)
• introverted (self-oriented, subjective values, derives primary drive from inward information, aligns with self 1st, outside world secondary)
If most essential decisions are made extravertly/introvertly, Jung called it ATTITUDE.
When this is done habitually, he calls it extraverted/introverted TYPE.
When the person's entire life is one way oriented (for better or worse), he called it extraversion and introversion.
According to Jung, in one person, one function can be both extraverted and introverted, but the following divisions are NOT indicating that. They don't describe „introverted version“ and „extroverted version“ of the 4 functions. THERE ARE ONLY 4.
Thinking (uses its own laws to bring representations into connection - concept construct; linking up of representations by means of a concept) a type of judging, requires one to reflect
• Active (directed) thinking (done on purpose, directed; called „intellect“ by Jung) MBTI: Ti
• Passive (intuitive) thinking (not done consciously/on purpose, connections thought about establish themselves without deliberate process; called „intellectual intuition“ by Jung) MBTI: Ti + Ne
Feeling (NOT emotions/affect, but can induce them only as much as thinking can. It is an interaction between any input and ego - ego is what balances between higher moral values and lower instictive desires, in order to set up subjective set of values to determine acceptance or rejection, without concern for the intellectual connection: worth gradient) a type of judging, requires one to reflect
MBTI: Fi (sort of)
Sensation (psychological function which transmits a physical stimulus to perception; stimulus both inner - of body, and outer - of surroundings) a type of perception, just takes in without judging input
• Concrete (percieves object + details: flower,stem, color, petals; AND IMMEDIATELLY induces more processing in consciousness -> feeling tone
leasure/dislike, OR additional sensation: smell, OR thoughts of info about it) MBTI: Se + Si• Abstract (picks out the most noticeable characteristic/attribute of thing: bright RED flower; making it the sole content/principle content of consciousness, abstraction/representation compressed) chracteristic of artists MBTI: Ni introvert
Intuition (ANY input filtered trough the unconscious, doesn't need concrete reality; hunches, visions, always comes as complete/given - not to be assembled, posseses certainty) a type of perception, just takes without judging input
MBTI: Ni, Ne= fast Ni
Intuition is ONE, but may be perception of unconscious psychic data originating in the subject (while intuiting/percieving what is already within), or (also) induced by subliminal perceptions of the object and additional feelings and thoughts they evoke...doesn't involve any consciously understood path/origin to be assembled, even when induced externally.
RESULT:
8 cognitive categories: TSIF, TISF, FSIT, FIST, STFI, SFTI, ITFS, IFTS
2 consciousness versions: extraverted & introverted (trough which the 4 functions „flow“); flow indicated by 3 levels of consciousness: level 1: attitude, level2: type, level3: extravert/introvert (prolly mentally ill)
2 divisions: rational (judges the most in order to know) & irrational (percieves the most in order to know)
Judgers:
e-TSIF (Extraverted consciousness with thinking, aided by sensing, most differentiated in it... Their intuition and feeling not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-TSIF (Introverted consciousness with thinking aided by sensing, most differentiated in it... Their intuition and feeling not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-TISF (Extraverted consciousness with thinking, aided by intuition, most differentiated in it... Their sensing and feeling not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-TISF (Introverted consciousness with thinking aided by intuition, most differentiated in it... Their sensing and feeling not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-FSIT (Extraverted consciousness with feeling, aided by sensing, most differentiated in it... Their intuition and thinking not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-FSIT (Introverted consciousness with feeling aided by sensing, most differentiated in it... Their intuition and thinking not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-FIST (Extraverted consciousness with feeling, aided by intuition, most differentiated in it... Their sensing and thinking not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-FIST (Introverted consciousness with feeling aided by intuition, most differentiated in it... Their sensing and thinking not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
Percievers:
e-STFI (Extraverted consciousness with sensing, aided by thinking, most differentiated in it... Their feeling and intuition not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-STFI (Introverted consciousness with sensing aided by thinking, most differentiated in it... Their feeling and intuition not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-SFTI (Extraverted consciousness with sensing, aided by feeling, most differentiated in it... Their thinking and intuition not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-SFTI (Introverted consciousness with sensing aided by feeling, most differentiated in it... Their thinking and intuition not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-ITFS(Extraverted consciousness with intuition, aided by thinking, most differentiated in it... Their feeling and sensing not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-ITFS (Introverted consciousness with intuition, aided by thinking, most differentiated in it... Their feeling and sensing not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
e-IFTS (Extraverted consciousness with intuition, aided by feeling, most differentiated in it... Their thinking and sensing not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the introverted unconscious)
i-IFTS (Introverted consciousness with intuition, aided by feeling, most differentiated in it... Their thinking and sensing not clearly laid out, more likely to be playing out in the extraverted unconscious)
If only what is certain is listed, the „types“ are mere suggestions of congnition and are displayed as following:
Thinking-Sensing Extravert TSe
Thinking-Sensing Introvert TSi
Thinking-Intuiting Extravert TIe
Thinking-Intuiting Introvert TIi
Feeling-Sensing Extravert FSe
Feeling-Sensing Introvert FSi
Feeling-Intuiting Extravert FIe
Feeling-Intuiting Introvert FIi
Sensing-Thinking Extravert STe
Sensing-Thinking Introvert STi
Sensing-Feeling Extravert SFe
Sensing-Feeling Introvert SFi
Intuiting-Thinking Extravert ITe
Intuiting-Thinking Introvert ITi
Intuiting-Feeling Extravert IFe
Intuiting-Feeling Introvert Ifi
(next to each type 3 levels of consciousness introversion/extroversion can be noted, example: SFi2, TIe1, IFe3...)
Conclusion: MBTI is like a little kid drawing a bunny on daddy's tax return.
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Young describes an extroverted consciousness. That means an extrovert more stimulated and defined by what is around them, than what is inside them. So an extrovert who is most prominently defined by intuition, isn't a "Ne using person" as understood by MBTI. He is an extroverted person (outside inclined) with intuition most prominently shaping their personality.
They use the SAME intuition an introvert uses, but will pick up on more outside intuition stimulus, than inside. Doesn't mean they are "Ne like" as MBTI describes them, since an introvert using intuition could generate ideas faster if more steeped in themselves, or simply a person close to an ambivert, getting intuitive hunches almost equally from both sides... Idea ridden, "hyper mind" MBTI Ne describes, is nothing more than quick/plentiful intuition use any introvert could manifest.
Thinking according to young is Active and single type of thinking (logical/reasoned binding of objects into concepts). MBTI divides it into Ti- predominantly inductive and Te- predominantly deductive and data based.
But that's pointless since ANY thinking using extrovert according to Jung, could easily outperform a supposed introvert in "use of MBTI's Ti", even if the two are of equal intelligence, simply because there is NO such thing as Te. Ti is nothing more than Jung's ONE thinking filtered trough how an introvert would be more likely to use it (not looking at too much outside data, but philosophize on the longest possible structure will go, before they need data), and Te is that SAME Ti within an extrovert who is just using more data.
Feeling is just person's values. Partly shown in MBTI Fi, or in socionics decribed as "gamma/delta aristocracy" when pertaining to people and highly discriminatory.
Values built can be ANY and related to ANYthing. This isn't Jung discussing feelings, but "feeling" function that CAN evoke feelings. To think up Fe is silly, since it implies formation of a particular set of human values (written into MBTI Fe-Fi descr.) is ALWAYS determined by how much a person emotes, feels others and reaches out, while Jung never went into people's individual value content.
Sensing is reactiveness and focus on physical stimuli. MBTI got this one closest to the mark I think, but again made it into a dichotomy, when there was absolutely NO need for that.
And the MOST IMPORTANT PART, what Jung said on the orientation of consciousness and how it can be prominently manifesting a functions, but it itself can be more "middle of the road" preference in addition of the degree the leading function defines the person in their preference to it... Naaah! Let's ignore that, who cares about the thing the old fart emphasized?
Jung quotes: "From these combinations well-known pictures arise, the practical intellect for instance paired with sensation, the speculative intellect breaking through with intuition, the artistic intuition which selects. and presents its images by means of feeling judgement, the philosophical intuition which, in league with a vigorous intellect, translates its vision into the sphere of comprehensible thought, and so forth."
"I differentiate these functions from one another, because they are neither mutually relatable nor mutually reducible. The principle of thinking, for instance, is absolutely different from the principle of feeling, and so forth."
Also thanks for welcoming me. I was here before long ago. It's good to be back. Very pretty forum. :kitteh:
They use the SAME intuition an introvert uses, but will pick up on more outside intuition stimulus, than inside. Doesn't mean they are "Ne like" as MBTI describes them, since an introvert using intuition could generate ideas faster if more steeped in themselves, or simply a person close to an ambivert, getting intuitive hunches almost equally from both sides... Idea ridden, "hyper mind" MBTI Ne describes, is nothing more than quick/plentiful intuition use any introvert could manifest.
Thinking according to young is Active and single type of thinking (logical/reasoned binding of objects into concepts). MBTI divides it into Ti- predominantly inductive and Te- predominantly deductive and data based.
But that's pointless since ANY thinking using extrovert according to Jung, could easily outperform a supposed introvert in "use of MBTI's Ti", even if the two are of equal intelligence, simply because there is NO such thing as Te. Ti is nothing more than Jung's ONE thinking filtered trough how an introvert would be more likely to use it (not looking at too much outside data, but philosophize on the longest possible structure will go, before they need data), and Te is that SAME Ti within an extrovert who is just using more data.
Feeling is just person's values. Partly shown in MBTI Fi, or in socionics decribed as "gamma/delta aristocracy" when pertaining to people and highly discriminatory.
Values built can be ANY and related to ANYthing. This isn't Jung discussing feelings, but "feeling" function that CAN evoke feelings. To think up Fe is silly, since it implies formation of a particular set of human values (written into MBTI Fe-Fi descr.) is ALWAYS determined by how much a person emotes, feels others and reaches out, while Jung never went into people's individual value content.
Sensing is reactiveness and focus on physical stimuli. MBTI got this one closest to the mark I think, but again made it into a dichotomy, when there was absolutely NO need for that.
And the MOST IMPORTANT PART, what Jung said on the orientation of consciousness and how it can be prominently manifesting a functions, but it itself can be more "middle of the road" preference in addition of the degree the leading function defines the person in their preference to it... Naaah! Let's ignore that, who cares about the thing the old fart emphasized?
Jung quotes: "From these combinations well-known pictures arise, the practical intellect for instance paired with sensation, the speculative intellect breaking through with intuition, the artistic intuition which selects. and presents its images by means of feeling judgement, the philosophical intuition which, in league with a vigorous intellect, translates its vision into the sphere of comprehensible thought, and so forth."
"I differentiate these functions from one another, because they are neither mutually relatable nor mutually reducible. The principle of thinking, for instance, is absolutely different from the principle of feeling, and so forth."
Also thanks for welcoming me. I was here before long ago. It's good to be back. Very pretty forum. :kitteh:
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
