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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I learned awhile back that my mom used to be an INTJ or something along those lines, and now she's an ESTJ. Let's mourn for our lost INTJ comrade. :crying:
 

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I learned awhile back that my mom used to be an INTJ or something along those lines, and now she's an ESTJ. Let's mourn for our lost INTJ comrade. :crying:
You should be sad about your lack of understanding of the MBTI. That change is not possible unless she has a mental illness.
 

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INTJ and ESTJ share Te in common as part of their dominant-auxiliary. Perhaps you're emphasizing particular traits with a certain personality? I imagine an ESTJ with an inadequate understanding of the theory may think themselves introverted in the past if they were shy. You don't really unlearn your functions naturally, so you should look into the differences between Ni and Si. Different orders lead to different expressions. (Ex: the difference of emphasis on the ENTP and INTP)
 

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I don't think the Myers-Briggs test is exactly scientific, either. I base this on my own experience. About 12 years ago I took it in a career counseling setting and came up INTP. I retook it about a year ago and came up INFP. The other night I got drunk and took the MBTI again and came up INTJ.

What results should I believe? I am inclined to think the drunk one might be most accurate :)
 

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Wow. I just learned today that I have the same birthday as Isabel Briggs Myers.

I am not so good at mourning, but I will try :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Heehee. I was just kidding about mourning. But my mom was really shy and then she joined the cheerleading squad. She became very outgoing after that...:shocked:
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You should be sad about your lack of understanding of the MBTI. That change is not possible unless she has a mental illness.
Good thing I got a book to read about the MBTI. It's very informative. :wink: I'm still new to the MBTI, so there's obviously a few things I need to know. Would you be willing to inform me about it?
 

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Good thing I got a book to read about the MBTI. It's very informative. :wink: I'm still new to the MBTI, so there's obviously a few things I need to know. Would you be willing to inform me about it?
It won't fit in a post. You´re going to have to do it on your own. Specific questions you can ask in this forum so people can give you specific answers. Then you have to decide for yourself which answers you find most correct.
 

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You should be sad about your lack of understanding of the MBTI. That change is not possible unless she has a mental illness.
Gee, thanks to this thread, now I believe myself to be mentally ill:(

Might it not be possible that your mom didn't take a complete version of the test? I suspect that's why I am testing differently now than when I took the test a dozen years ago, when I took the test for a career counselor. Online versions of the test might not be as complete or as reliable. Nowadays I just take the whole thing with a grain of salt.

Also, sometimes I find myself changing my answers. I just can't decide which one is better, mercy or justice. They're both important! I get stuck on that one every time...
 

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Gee, thanks to this thread, now I believe myself to be mentally ill:(

Might it not be possible that your mom didn't take a complete version of the test? I suspect that's why I am testing differently now than when I took the test a dozen years ago, when I took the test for a career counselor. Online versions of the test might not be as complete or as reliable. Nowadays I just take the whole thing with a grain of salt.

Also, sometimes I find myself changing my answers. I just can't decide which one is better, mercy or justice. They're both important! I get stuck on that one every time...
Don't worry. You´re probably just fine. People do tend to change answers to some questions over time because of frame of reference or simply understanding the question better.

Frame of reference:
When people answer the questions thinking they´re doing it for a job interview, they tend to answer different than when when they use their private life as the frame of reference. For example, a question like: "You´re almost never late for meetings." That might be true when you´re at work, while in your private life your friends may be like: "But he's always the last one to show up at a party."

Does that mean you have a different personality at work than at home? No. But you do bahave different at work than at home (most people do.) The correct answer is the one where your behavior is most natural.


The more basic frame of reference people use is the most recent past, like the last 4 weeks or so. So when people showed up in time for things the last couple of weeks, they will say they usually are never late, but that could simply be because they are married and their partner made them hurry up. While if they'd be on their own, they'd be late every time.

It's not that easy to answer those questions 100% the way you really are because many people don't really know them selves that well. However, what usually happens is that the percentages vary a bit if you regularly take the same test (like once every 2 months or so.) If you have a low percentage on one or more of the 4 letters, then it can happen that the letter changes, but that doesn't mean your personality changed completey. In this case you need to read the 2 descriptions and decide which one fits you better. And if then you still can't figure it out, you´re an INFP.
 

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(sigh) After explaining this a million times before, I will try again to clarify this -- yes it is possible for your type to change.

You say, "what? MBTI says no, you can't." You would be right to say that. The problem is simply with MBTI. As few seem to understand, MBTI was developed under an unscientific principle. This principle was not that it couldn't be accurately tested, or was perhaps superstitious, or anything, no -- it was because when MBTI was developed, scientists such as the developers of MBTI and the whole of the scientific community believed that everything was fixed. Your mind could not change due to circumstances or learning, your brain was the same basic thing from beginning to end.

In the past 20 years, the scientific community has been forced to do a 180 on this position -- neural plasticity, the fundamental changing of the brain due to circumstances & learning, which was discounted for centuries, has been proven beyond reasonable shadow of a doubt to be true. I quote Wikipedia: "Decades of research have now shown that substantial changes occur in the lowest neocortical processing areas, and that these changes can profoundly alter the pattern of neuronal activation in response to experience."

MBTI was developed in an outdated scientific age. It is a relic of the past -- a useful, interesting relic, nonethless. But a relic. To believe that brains do not change, personalities do not change, neural plasticity does not occur -- is akin to believing Newton and denying Einstein's relativity.
 
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(sigh) After explaining this a million times before, I will try again to clarify this -- yes it is possible for your type to change.

You say, "what? MBTI says no, you can't." You would be right to say that. The problem is simply with MBTI. As few seem to understand, MBTI was developed under an unscientific principle. This principle was not that it couldn't be accurately tested, or was perhaps superstitious, or anything, no -- it was because when MBTI was developed, scientists such as the developers of MBTI and the whole of the scientific community believed that everything was fixed. Your mind could not change due to circumstances or learning, your brain was the same basic thing from beginning to end.

In the past 20 years, the scientific community has been forced to do a 180 on this position -- neural plasticity, the fundamental changing of the brain due to circumstances & learning, which was discounted for centuries, has been proven beyond reasonable shadow of a doubt to be true. I quote Wikipedia: "Decades of research have now shown that substantial changes occur in the lowest neocortical processing areas, and that these changes can profoundly alter the pattern of neuronal activation in response to experience."

MBTI was developed in an outdated scientific age. It is a relic of the past -- a useful, interesting relic, nonethless. But a relic. To believe that brains do not change, personalities do not change, neural plasticity does not occur -- is akin to believing Newton and denying Einstein's relativity.
All your points are interesting, but I have a question. Some questions are confusing to me, and here's why. I don't know if they want an answer based on my own self perception or on what others perceive about me. I recall questions asking whether I express emotions freely. I believe I do, but others tell me that they have no idea that I am depressed or under a lot of stress, when I believe it's entirely obvious. And yes, I do express my feelings freely...in writing, or to close friends. So how do I answer such questions? I guess I'm either too dumb or too smart to "get" the MBTI...and perhaps that is why I have been testing differently.

Nonetheless, I like the MBTI type descriptions because it gives me a new way to understand human behavior. Until I began reading about the types, I never fully appreciated how differently people perceive the world and interact with each other. It's been good for me because I think I missed out on learning much about other people because of my introversion.
 

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All your points are interesting, but I have a question. Some questions are confusing to me, and here's why. I don't know if they want an answer based on my own self perception or on what others perceive about me. I recall questions asking whether I express emotions freely. I believe I do, but others tell me that they have no idea that I am depressed or under a lot of stress, when I believe it's entirely obvious. And yes, I do express my feelings freely...in writing, or to close friends. So how do I answer such questions? I guess I'm either too dumb or too smart to "get" the MBTI...and perhaps that is why I have been testing differently.

Nonetheless, I like the MBTI type descriptions because it gives me a new way to understand human behavior. Until I began reading about the types, I never fully appreciated how differently people perceive the world and interact with each other. It's been good for me because I think I missed out on learning much about other people because of my introversion.
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. That is one of the very grey areas of the who MBTI -- the ambiguity of the questions and answers can dramatically change results freely. This is another reason why lots of people take MBTI with a grain of salt, which isn't really a bad idea.

And oh yeah, no doubt about it, MBTI is helpful to loads of people. It was helpful to me too. I related almost perfectly with the INFP description, and I've always tested as that. The main point that I was saying was on the ability of people to change. Way back when till the late 70s, it was almost universally accepted people could never change. Who you were was who you were forever. But now they are finding differently, and that would mean that it is possible (and likely, in some cases) that people's types could change as their views and experiences of the world impact them.

Like you said, the tough part also of MBTI is that it is given by the user, and so it is very, very hard to objectively stand back and say if that person got the correct type or not. I guess it is just a combination of what your first instinct is on the test and what you relate to most. MBTI is just a simple system and a simple test in an increasingly more complex world.
 

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(sigh) After explaining this a million times before, I will try again to clarify this -- yes it is possible for your type to change.

You say, "what? MBTI says no, you can't." You would be right to say that. The problem is simply with MBTI. As few seem to understand, MBTI was developed under an unscientific principle. This principle was not that it couldn't be accurately tested, or was perhaps superstitious, or anything, no -- it was because when MBTI was developed, scientists such as the developers of MBTI and the whole of the scientific community believed that everything was fixed. Your mind could not change due to circumstances or learning, your brain was the same basic thing from beginning to end.

In the past 20 years, the scientific community has been forced to do a 180 on this position -- neural plasticity, the fundamental changing of the brain due to circumstances & learning, which was discounted for centuries, has been proven beyond reasonable shadow of a doubt to be true. I quote Wikipedia: "Decades of research have now shown that substantial changes occur in the lowest neocortical processing areas, and that these changes can profoundly alter the pattern of neuronal activation in response to experience."

MBTI was developed in an outdated scientific age. It is a relic of the past -- a useful, interesting relic, nonethless. But a relic. To believe that brains do not change, personalities do not change, neural plasticity does not occur -- is akin to believing Newton and denying Einstein's relativity.
I know this. When I talk about the wiring, I'm not suggesting that the connections between neurons never change. They do!

A quote from that link you gave:
Decades of research have now shown that substantial changes occur in the lowest neocortical processing areas, and that these changes can profoundly alter the pattern of neuronal activation in response to experience.
This makes sense because the brain is a prediction machine, meaning that it makes constant predictions about the patterns that come in next. Over a whole life time, the incoming patterns change. To give an example, what you see as a child is not the same thing as what you see as a young adult, and when you´re very old, you will look at different things.

The brain makes predictions and makes what it sees most, more likely and what it sees less, less likely. Since your experiences change over your life, your brain needs to addapt and that is more than just changing the strength of existing connections. For this it actually needs to physically change connections between neurons.

To say this in a simpler way. As a child you experience adults as something way much taller than you. One of the properties your brain considers to judge if somebody is an adult, is having to look 3 feet up and kids are more or less at your level. When you´re an adult however, these properties have reversed. Adults are at you level, and for kids you have to look 3 or 4 feet down. Same things, different experiences.

The way your brain experiences the world changes profoundly with age. This is on all levels.

But does this mean that your personality type would change? Basically the question is: "Does this mean that the order of the brain's cognitive functions changes?"

No, it doesn't.

A strong indicator of this is the following.
IQ is a property of the brain. It's based on the hardware. Some brains are smarter than others, that's just the way it is. Does neuroplasticity has the effect that people get a higher IQ? Not as far as I know. At least I never heard of somebody who had an IQ of 90 when he was a kid and died with an IQ of 130. (not counting those examples of people who do so many IQ tests that they became experts in taking IQ tests.)
 
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