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Hello. I'm an 8w7, and frankly, I feel it's been a flash-point for conflict among me and my friends, primarily with one of my friends who is an ENFP 4w3. Whenever I have an outburst of anger, or respond in a way that others see as vindictive or overly aggressive, I'm often mocked as a result. Why don't they take me seriously? It's common for them to tell me to "lighten up", but I don't feel that they realize how difficult that is. As an eight, I want to be in control. It's almost cyclical, because them mocking me causes me to get angry again, and so I lose even more control. How do I control the situation? I'm not sure of most of their Enneagram types, but I'm referring to people who are INFPs and ENFPs in Myers-Briggs. I'm sorry that I don't know their Enneagram types. Is there any way for me to let, or to even resolve this problem?
 

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They don't seem like friends to me. Presumably you've tried communicating in other non-angry ways with them to try to see from your side. They are willingly ignoring your needs.

I'd drop them. 8w7s are "the least other-related" subtype. You shouldn't find this too difficult.
 

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shit happens. people move along.

the ultimate form of control is withdrawing.

i can get along with enfp's. i'm attracted to INFP's, but they get whiny when i lose patience.
 
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I have this problem, or rather I did as a kid. "Make fun of the angry person". My so-called friends would just sort of get this look on their face and start sniggering...my parents would be like, "get over yourself". It's like, how is that acceptable? Clearly there's something wrong and you're just gonna treat me like an idiot? I got the "over-serious", "lighten-up" card played against me a lot. God, I start simmering just remembering it. It's very devalidating, for one thing.

Well basically, as an adult, I've found that it's strategic just to sit on your anger and use it against them later. Or at least plan to. I don't claim to be a core 8 (though it's a candidate for my gut-fix if you want to play tritypes). So, this might be harder for you to do, I don't know.

Something else you can do, and which a friend told me to do, and which I wish someone had told me as a kid, is just to laugh back. Make sure you're sufficiently angry and abrasive about it: AHAHA HA HAA! LOOK AT THESE CHATTERING MONKEYS WHO MOCK THEIR OWN FRIENDS!! -kind of thing. Turn their mockery against them. That way you vent your anger, point out their stupidity, and get a good laugh all at the same time.

I can't help you regarding Myers-Briggs, but I think the issue is with their attitudes. MBTI probably doesn't make that much of a difference here.
 

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Whenever I have an outburst of anger, or respond in a way that others see as vindictive or overly aggressive, I'm often mocked as a result. Why don't they take me seriously? It's common for them to tell me to "lighten up", but I don't feel that they realize how difficult that is. As an eight, I want to be in control. It's almost cyclical, because them mocking me causes me to get angry again, and so I lose even more control. How do I control the situation?
I'm pretty good at laughing at my own anger and I oftentimes view my quick temper as something of a "quirk" of my personality. This is how I "lighten up" and I end up feeling like I'm more in control of myself and the situation. I still express my anger (to a certain extent) but then I realize it's just a flash of intense emotion that will fade, might as well make it a joke. I would recommend not taking yourself so seriously - but that's utterly pointless to say to an 8. I would like to add that maybe the reason you don't feel "in control" is because you don't feel in control of your own emotions (anger). What's more important? Getting angry or feeling in control?

I'm able to control my quick temper for the most part, but there are still times when I get angry, like FOR REAL. When this happens I tend to get mocked as well (mostly by family members) and I can relate to the feeling of not being in control. This causes me to get ten times more angry. At some point I just shut down, feeling utterly hopeless.

What's worked for me, on the most part, is controlling my quick temper by realizing that giving into anger is the main cause towards feeling out of control. You can't control how your friends respond to you - that's a given. The only thing you can really control is yourself.
 

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Hello. I'm an 8w7, and frankly, I feel it's been a flash-point for conflict among me and my friends, primarily with one of my friends who is an ENFP 4w3. Whenever I have an outburst of anger, or respond in a way that others see as vindictive or overly aggressive, I'm often mocked as a result. Why don't they take me seriously? It's common for them to tell me to "lighten up", but I don't feel that they realize how difficult that is. As an eight, I want to be in control. It's almost cyclical, because them mocking me causes me to get angry again, and so I lose even more control. How do I control the situation? I'm not sure of most of their Enneagram types, but I'm referring to people who are INFPs and ENFPs in Myers-Briggs. I'm sorry that I don't know their Enneagram types. Is there any way for me to let, or to even resolve this problem?
I have had that reaction from other people myself before but when I get that reaction I just get more angry and of course take things even more seriously and it's of course directly taken out on these people so they just stop doing the mocking. They don't usually try it again in future. Problem solved. (This is usually not with friends of mine, just other random people)

Anyway I understand your issue totally, it's a very unfair reaction from them if they are supposedly your friends. They clearly aren't trying to understand your viewpoint of the situation at all, that is, why you are angry in the first place etc.

Also think of it like this; Why would you need to try and fit yourself to their expectations? Why don't they do that instead huh? No, the solution is, if they are friends of yours, both of you need to do something.

I suggest that - at some moment when there isn't any conflict going on - you explain to them that you work differently. You take stuff seriously because you need the control. They need to understand and accept that that's the way you are.

You can also try to understand their viewpoint of course. That would be part of cooperation with them too. I don't know why they have a problem with your way of seeing things so I can't offer any specific advice on that one as it depends.

If they can't/won't make steps and cooperate with you on this then bad luck. (I would then either write them off as friends or I would just do as above, simply stop them from doing the mocking at all.)
 
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I'm pretty good at laughing at my own anger and I oftentimes view my quick temper as something of a "quirk" of my personality. This is how I "lighten up" and I end up feeling like I'm more in control of myself and the situation. I still express my anger (to a certain extent) but then I realize it's just a flash of intense emotion that will fade, might as well make it a joke. I would recommend not taking yourself so seriously - but that's utterly pointless to say to an 8. I would like to add that maybe the reason you don't feel "in control" is because you don't feel in control of your own emotions (anger). What's more important? Getting angry or feeling in control?
I don't see why you can't feel in control while angry. I certainly can. The exception is some relatively long lasting rages, well I still have control then, just less.. but I don't think we are talking about that kind of anger anyway. So anyway you just need to keep a certain logical thinking and you are still in control then.

OK well I'm actually curious about whether you learnt this method of telling yourself it's "just a flash of intense emotion that will fade"? Or was this always natural for you to recognize that? If not, was it hard to learn? Did you not mind letting go of your anger? I have that problem when imagining your solution. I would mind letting go of it lol


I'm able to control my quick temper for the most part, but there are still times when I get angry, like FOR REAL. When this happens I tend to get mocked as well (mostly by family members) and I can relate to the feeling of not being in control. This causes me to get ten times more angry. At some point I just shut down, feeling utterly hopeless.
Uhh... fuck them. When they see you just get more angry, don't they understand it's doing no good? I would have already hit them if this reaction kept repeating.. if I were you :p I'm not recommending you actually do that, though. No, but have you tried talking with them about this issue? ? ? I think you really should, just like I recommended it to OP.


What's worked for me, on the most part, is controlling my quick temper by realizing that giving into anger is the main cause towards feeling out of control. You can't control how your friends respond to you - that's a given. The only thing you can really control is yourself.
I don't agree. You can definitely have a say in how your friends respond. By talking things over, at the minimum. (When there is no ongoing conflict or even then, if they are the type that can discuss things even while in open conflict.) Intimidating them into not doing it, is another way of achieving it but with friends that would be less fitting obviously. Yeah, I'm obviously not recommending that for your friends and family. All I'm saying is that it's not true that you cannot control or have a say in anything.
 

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Hello. I'm an 8w7, and frankly, I feel it's been a flash-point for conflict among me and my friends, primarily with one of my friends who is an ENFP 4w3. Whenever I have an outburst of anger, or respond in a way that others see as vindictive or overly aggressive, I'm often mocked as a result. Why don't they take me seriously? It's common for them to tell me to "lighten up", but I don't feel that they realize how difficult that is. As an eight, I want to be in control. It's almost cyclical, because them mocking me causes me to get angry again, and so I lose even more control. How do I control the situation? I'm not sure of most of their Enneagram types, but I'm referring to people who are INFPs and ENFPs in Myers-Briggs. I'm sorry that I don't know their Enneagram types. Is there any way for me to let, or to even resolve this problem?
By your description you sound very snivelly. If you have 8 anger, it is usually focused and legitimate. If it isn't then you should be mocked assuming you can't control yourself. If I feel irrational anger, most of the time I realize what it is and try to remove myself from the situation. if I feel my anger is valid then whoever I am directing my rage at, had better watch out. I won't stop just because they try to make light of it, in fact I might punch them depending on how far in to the rage I am.

It has nothing to do with losing control of the situation, in fact if I realized I lost control of my emotions for something silly I would get mad at myself and might even openly "mock" myself.
 
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Beer Guardian
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Hello. I'm an 8w7, and frankly, I feel it's been a flash-point for conflict among me and my friends, primarily with one of my friends who is an ENFP 4w3. Whenever I have an outburst of anger, or respond in a way that others see as vindictive or overly aggressive, I'm often mocked as a result. Why don't they take me seriously? It's common for them to tell me to "lighten up", but I don't feel that they realize how difficult that is. As an eight, I want to be in control. It's almost cyclical, because them mocking me causes me to get angry again, and so I lose even more control. How do I control the situation? I'm not sure of most of their Enneagram types, but I'm referring to people who are INFPs and ENFPs in Myers-Briggs. I'm sorry that I don't know their Enneagram types. Is there any way for me to let, or to even resolve this problem?
For someone who wants to be in control, you sure do seem to give it away easy. Why would you want to be someone whose so easily manipulated by others? I say you grit your teeth and don't give the pricks the satisfaction of seeing you lose control not once, but twice! Practice this technique and eventually, you won't have to grit your teeth anymore.
 
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OK well I'm actually curious about whether you learnt this method of telling yourself it's "just a flash of intense emotion that will fade"? Or was this always natural for you to recognize that? If not, was it hard to learn? Did you not mind letting go of your anger? I have that problem when imagining your solution. I would mind letting go of it lol
I'm about the same way. My anger-in-the-moment anger goes away quickly if the problem is solved quickly. I learned this from other people's observations of me. Once I learned that it could be the case, I tried to consciously connect to it a bit more to get less upset in the future/become more patient.

When people first told me that I get over things quickly, I actually couldn't believe it. In my mind, other people are either on my shit list, or they're not. If (general) you were on my shit list for whatever reason, I would never associate with you again, if I could help it. This is a binary evaluation. The people on my shit list remark that I "really know how to hold a grudge", while my friends say I get over things quickly. I think those two types of anger are different measurements.

I can tell the difference between my quickly dissapating anger eights are known for and the long-term simmering anger that ones are known for. I absolutely would rather that eight-style anger to go away quickly. It gets in the way of my goals and healthy relationships. Being consumed by anger means less energy and attention devoted to your other goals that aren't driven by anger. I also have orders of magnitude more of those than I have of the other anger.

On the other hand, I don't want to let go of my one-style anger, because until I get myself to a better place where it is no longer needed, hate keeps me going. (Let the hate flow through you~~!) But if you do choose to do this, do realize that you are making a metaphorical pact with the devil. Giving into an eight's anger is the analogy typically given for how an eight brings about the conditions he/she most fears, where he/she loses control. Which, clearly, based on the opening post, is exactly what happens.

I don't agree. You can definitely have a say in how your friends respond. By talking things over, at the minimum. (When there is no ongoing conflict or even then, if they are the type that can discuss things even while in open conflict.) Intimidating them into not doing it, is another way of achieving it but with friends that would be less fitting obviously. Yeah, I'm obviously not recommending that for your friends and family. All I'm saying is that it's not true that you cannot control or have a say in anything.
You can influence how your friends perceive and respond to you, but ultimately, it is their decision. It is precisely that ultimate decision that no one else other than that own individual can control. I don't want other people thinking they have a say in how I respond, and therefore, I find it hypocritical for an eight to violate the boundaries that separate you from other people. The boundaries that separate your decisions from other people's decisions. Even if you can control it does not mean you should. Because that is exploitation of the weak, something that we (as eights) are fundamentally against.

In my personal experience, almost nobody else other than eights can lucidly describe their problem in conflict. So therefore, just about everybody else will do whatever they can to make the atmosphere be more immediately pleasant. That doesn't mean that you've won, that just means they're dragging the battle into their own territory, getting friends/society to reject you, act passive aggressively against you, or sabotage you in other ways. For example, try talking to a stereotypical nine about a personal conflict between you and the nine over and over again, as calmly as you think you can, and see where that gets you (in my experience, ignored. Now my voice really has no influence, good job!).
 

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@cir I don't think you can say an 8 is fundamentally against controlling the weak. We are not magnanomous and altruistic. I would say many 8 may even exploit their power over the weak
 

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@cir I don't think you can say an 8 is fundamentally against controlling the weak. We are not magnanomous and altruistic. I would say many 8 may even exploit their power over the weak
A healthy 8 will do things to help the weak without obvious reward. an example is this site.

The owner of the site wants people to be civil, and wants to provide a place for those trying to figure it out, and maybe get help, to find it.

On this site I could be pretty direct and on the edge of rude to another shark. Two sharks chewing on each other in a quiet corner is fair play. A shark eating a guppy is not tolerated on this site.

The owner of this site is not getting rich here.

I think it is very fair to say 8's can be real dicks to people as they grow up. Some 8's eventually do grow up. Some remain immature, or unhealthy and continue to fuck with people for their own entertainment.
 
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The Doer King
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A healthy 8 will do things to help the weak without obvious reward. an example is this site.

The owner of the site wants people to be civil, and wants to provide a place for those trying to figure it out, and maybe get help, to find it.

On this site I could be pretty direct and on the edge of rude to another shark. Two sharks chewing on each other in a quiet corner is fair play. A shark eating a guppy is not tolerated on this site.

The owner of this site is not getting rich here.

I think it is very fair to say 8's can be real dicks to people as they grow up. Some 8's eventually do grow up. Some remain immature, or unhealthy and continue to fuck with people for their own entertainment.
I can't tell if you are talking to me or not, lol. Technically this forum is owned by a private company, and they have no influence on the rules or day to day activity. Strictly speaking I am the one who runs the forum and sets the rules. The "owner" of sorts.
 

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I can't tell if you are talking to me or not, lol. Technically this forum is owned by a private company, and they have no influence on the rules or day to day activity. Strictly speaking I am the one who runs the forum and sets the rules. The "owner" of sorts.

All this IMO.

You are obviously an 8. I see you as the owner. You run it, you control it, you make shit happen, you set the standards, you enforce the standards.

You obviously invest a LOT of time and energy into this place. Obviously you don't make tons of money here.

This place helps a shit ton of people. And it helps them in really good ways. The system of how it all works is amazing. Some of it ended up being successful accidentally, but most of it is successful because of your vision, ethics, and desires. Further it works because you don't need, want or desire to control everyone or everything. You set the system up, and you let it run, and you let your volunteers do their thing.

You wrote: "I don't think you can say an 8 is fundamentally against controlling the weak. We are not magnanomous and altruistic. I would say many 8 may even exploit their power over the weak"

I'm calling bullshit on your statement, and I'm using you as an example to prove my point. I'm not buying the idea you can't be magnanimous and altruistic. The cost benefit analysis does not work unless we include the intangibles of the people helped.

Maybe you meant some 8's can do the negative shit you say, and I'd agree with that. But some 8's also have a huge drive to help the weak and innocent and will quietly DO shit to help others.

Most people do not DO.

The Doer King. I respect what you've DONE.
 

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@cir I don't think you can say an 8 is fundamentally against controlling the weak. We are not magnanomous and altruistic. I would say many 8 may even exploit their power over the weak
IF an eight subconsciously feel themselves being weak AND his basic fear is being controlled, THEN that means the eight is fundamentally against other forces controlling him, because that would mean the outside forces are strong, and the eight is weak. Therefore, on a visceral and bodily level, an eight is fundamentally against the strong controlling the weak. If the eight just applies that rule to himself, then yes, he's unhealthy and not magnanimous.

If someone crosses an eight's boundaries, then that is seen as an invitation for the eight to cross boundaries and finish the fight. However, if an eight violates those boundaries, then other people have no reason to respect the eight's boundaries. If people are not respecting your boundaries, and you are intensely feeling it, then how much control would you really have?
 

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Hello. I'm an 8w7, and frankly, I feel it's been a flash-point for conflict among me and my friends, primarily with one of my friends who is an ENFP 4w3. Whenever I have an outburst of anger, or respond in a way that others see as vindictive or overly aggressive, I'm often mocked as a result. Why don't they take me seriously? It's common for them to tell me to "lighten up", but I don't feel that they realize how difficult that is. As an eight, I want to be in control. It's almost cyclical, because them mocking me causes me to get angry again, and so I lose even more control. How do I control the situation? I'm not sure of most of their Enneagram types, but I'm referring to people who are INFPs and ENFPs in Myers-Briggs. I'm sorry that I don't know their Enneagram types. Is there any way for me to let, or to even resolve this problem?
Take a look at what triggered the anger. Is your anger response rational or irrational?

Irrational anger is usually an inappropriately aggressive response to something. Others probably laugh because they see you as you would a two year-old throwing a temper tantrum over something insignificant. When I become aware I'm doing this, I take a look at exactly what the anger is rooted in. If it isn't valid, I walk away from it, or sometimes end up laughing at myself.

If you take a look at what is making you angry, and you have a legitimate reason for anger, ... bring it. If someone mocked me in this situation, I'd probably get even more angry. You verbalize this as "losing even more control". I don't think so. To me, more like focusing the anger.
 
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I'm about the same way. My anger-in-the-moment anger goes away quickly if the problem is solved quickly. I learned this from other people's observations of me. Once I learned that it could be the case, I tried to consciously connect to it a bit more to get less upset in the future/become more patient.
Oh do I get you right here, do you mean that because your anger goes away quickly anyway you might as well not bother having the anger in the first place? Let me know if I misunderstood. Anyway, that kind of reasoning doesn't work for me. Trust me I tried to "get less upset" over small things. But every time I tried I just had the anger come back within a minute and stronger. I don't mind however, I do cool down pretty fast, like, instantly as soon as the problem is gone. I've always been aware that my anger goes away quickly, I didn't need to be told :). I just wanted to have the ultimate control when I tried to control my anger like that lol. I could see my method for that wasn't working and then I decided it was fine as it is anyway exactly because 1) the anger goes away fast 2) I stay in control during it anyway. I think logically, I can still easily calculate stuff and I decide what consequences I'm willing to take even if I do become more impulsive.

Anyway, how did you "connect" to your anger and how did that work to be less angry? I'm curious.


When people first told me that I get over things quickly, I actually couldn't believe it. In my mind, other people are either on my shit list, or they're not. If (general) you were on my shit list for whatever reason, I would never associate with you again, if I could help it. This is a binary evaluation. The people on my shit list remark that I "really know how to hold a grudge", while my friends say I get over things quickly. I think those two types of anger are different measurements.
Interesting, I don't relate to the grudge part. I do have a sort of shit list but it's based on principle and not in feeling. So I don't actually feel a grudge, it's only for logical reasons that I have a shit list at all. :p


I can tell the difference between my quickly dissapating anger eights are known for and the long-term simmering anger that ones are known for. I absolutely would rather that eight-style anger to go away quickly. It gets in the way of my goals and healthy relationships. Being consumed by anger means less energy and attention devoted to your other goals that aren't driven by anger. I also have orders of magnitude more of those than I have of the other anger.
I agree the 8-style anger can get in the way of relationships. But hey, I view it as a way to sort between people. Lol. I agree that you shouldn't feel angry all day though, sure. Being angry a lot does take energy even if it feels good on a level. But as I said, mine only lasts as long as the problem lasts so it doesn't truly get in the way for me. The only times I felt it was taking too much energy away from other things was when at times I felt angry literally all day but then I always realised what was causing me to be like that and that then helped sort it out. There is a complex relationship between this kind of anger and certain other things.


On the other hand, I don't want to let go of my one-style anger, because until I get myself to a better place where it is no longer needed, hate keeps me going. (Let the hate flow through you~~!) But if you do choose to do this, do realize that you are making a metaphorical pact with the devil. Giving into an eight's anger is the analogy typically given for how an eight brings about the conditions he/she most fears, where he/she loses control. Which, clearly, based on the opening post, is exactly what happens.
I can't comment on the hate part. I don't bother with feeling outright hate for long. What keeps me going is just anger. As for losing control, I see you are elaborating on that below, right?


You can influence how your friends perceive and respond to you, but ultimately, it is their decision. It is precisely that ultimate decision that no one else other than that own individual can control. I don't want other people thinking they have a say in how I respond, and therefore, I find it hypocritical for an eight to violate the boundaries that separate you from other people. The boundaries that separate your decisions from other people's decisions. Even if you can control it does not mean you should. Because that is exploitation of the weak, something that we (as eights) are fundamentally against.
Alright that's a better wording, you have control to the extent that you can influence others. That's good enough. We don't have outright mind control so what? Though when I say "influencing others", I do mean use of force at times. And no I haven't killed anyone yet :p. And right I don't like others trying to force me into whatever but I can and will fight back so that's all good. By default I assume everyone has their own will and can do this for themselves if they see it fit. So unless you mean I need to change my ways just because maybe not everyone is like me in terms of willing to withstand opposition, I don't see a problem or disagreement here.

As for violating boundaries, well, I'm sorry but some people just seem hypersensitive. They complain and call certain things violation of boundaries that I wouldn't call that. I can't learn the individual levels of sensitivity for each person out there so I expect people to be able to stand up for themselves. Tell me when you have a problem and we will deal with it. I don't see another solution here. This is again about me expecting others to have their own will and capabilities to deal with shit, yes.

I do agree that it would be hypocritical to preach that you are always great, fair, magnanimous while you actually will quite readily hurt other people's interests even when you are aware that you are actually doing that. But no, only the healthy enough eights are all that magnanimous and against all kinds of exploitation even for strangers beyond their own people and blahblah. Don't try to idolize this type, it is no better than any other Enneagram type. Enneagram is about the negative shit in yourself (and sure, some self-growth maybe).


In my personal experience, almost nobody else other than eights can lucidly describe their problem in conflict. So therefore, just about everybody else will do whatever they can to make the atmosphere be more immediately pleasant. That doesn't mean that you've won, that just means they're dragging the battle into their own territory, getting friends/society to reject you, act passive aggressively against you, or sabotage you in other ways. For example, try talking to a stereotypical nine about a personal conflict between you and the nine over and over again, as calmly as you think you can, and see where that gets you (in my experience, ignored. Now my voice really has no influence, good job!).
This part of your post is very interesting. You might be right that many people can't discuss problems in too aggressively oriented conflict. That's why I do have another style of problem solving, which is just directly and frankly communicating my thoughts without actually putting in much anger. I stay rather detached in a logical fashion though not fully detached (maybe a little bit of anger lurking beneath the surface?). The focusing on the explaining in that fashion for this specific goal of communication is what actually reduces some of the angry intensity, though as I said, it doesn't fully erase it. Some people still find that style of mine too blunt but generally even those people understand what I'm talking about and it does help communicate with them, yes.

But yeah, what you say about the battle being dragged into another territory, I have seen that and I sure don't like that. I have never tried to sum it up this nicely though.

What do you do to avoid such consequences? What do you do with the stubborn nine for example? Lol I'm genuinely curious. I do have my own ideas on solving such issues with nines heh but curious about your ways too

I have another thought to add; you did paint that picture pretty dark and yes it can get dark like that. But I see and use some solutions that work against it going truly that dark. I only mentioned one of them above, though. And none of them really work to reduce my anger fully to zero. I don't know if that can be done or if I even want that to happen, lol again
 

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@cir I don't think you can say an 8 is fundamentally against controlling the weak. We are not magnanomous and altruistic. I would say many 8 may even exploit their power over the weak
OK that's now the other side of it, you're painting a really dark picture over the overly idealistic one of @cir's. :p

8's can be pretty magnanimous, I like that concept btw. It's a word that's really well chosen for 8's. But yes they can be just the opposite too.

It depends on level of health, supposedly. For me it more depends on mood. Which results from certain causes. Complex relationship there really. And yeah you can fluctuate between some levels of health.

I guess it really needs the highest level of health though to be truly for supporting all the weak, not just your own people but every stranger out there, even ones that you've never seen in person and never exploit them even a tiny little bit. Where "exploitation" has a quite wide meaning, meaning anything where you directly or even indirectly take advantage of your better position over someone else, including you buying some clothes that were made in China by some poor kids. Though you could argue that those kids are better off than the ones that actually starve to death because they have no job at all. It's not all that black and white lol


IF an eight subconsciously feel themselves being weak AND his basic fear is being controlled, THEN that means the eight is fundamentally against other forces controlling him, because that would mean the outside forces are strong, and the eight is weak. Therefore, on a visceral and bodily level, an eight is fundamentally against the strong controlling the weak. If the eight just applies that rule to himself, then yes, he's unhealthy and not magnanimous.
No on a visceral/bodily level, as a result of what you are explaining above, the not so healthy eight is fundamentally against others (not necessarily all people). Well ok maybe that's a strong expression there but I can't think of a better one. Healthy one would be able to care for more people, I guess. Because they no longer see the world in such a dark light with -almost- all people in it being err, corrupt, for lack of a better word again. On a basic level when the not perfectly healthy eight goes and defends others it's because of his/her own old issues being triggered. Better health level goes beyond that, yes.

But anyway the Enneagram books explain this in a lot more detail.

If someone crosses an eight's boundaries, then that is seen as an invitation for the eight to cross boundaries and finish the fight. However, if an eight violates those boundaries, then other people have no reason to respect the eight's boundaries. If people are not respecting your boundaries, and you are intensely feeling it, then how much control would you really have?
Simple, you push back. You don't just stop and cry and lose the fight. And, you do need to have a good overview of more complex situations so then you can find whatever ways to gain/keep control. Still, no sitting down to just cry lol.


You verbalize this as "losing even more control". I don't think so. To me, more like focusing the anger.
What's the difference in your opinion between focused anger and not-focused not-in-control anger? Describe the latter?
 

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The Doer King
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OK that's now the other side of it, you're painting a really dark picture over the overly idealistic one of @cir's. :p

8's can be pretty magnanimous, I like that concept btw. It's a word that's really well chosen for 8's. But yes they can be just the opposite too.

It depends on level of health, supposedly. For me it more depends on mood. Which results from certain causes. Complex relationship there really. And yeah you can fluctuate between some levels of health.

I guess it really needs the highest level of health though to be truly for supporting all the weak, not just your own people but every stranger out there, even ones that you've never seen in person and never exploit them even a tiny little bit. Where "exploitation" has a quite wide meaning, meaning anything where you directly or even indirectly take advantage of your better position over someone else, including you buying some clothes that were made in China by some poor kids. Though you could argue that those kids are better off than the ones that actually starve to death because they have no job at all. It's not all that black and white lol
I was pushing the unhealthy level on purpose. It is my belief that any 8 who is magnanimous is of superior health. If any 8 claims they are at such a state I immediately know they are not an 8. Very few are at the top levels of health at a consistent basis and I would say if an 8 was really up there they wouldn't flaunt what they were. Most people are average health as far as I am concerned.
 

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Grumpy old bastard
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If any 8 claims they are at such a state I immediately know they are not an 8. Very few are at the top levels of health at a consistent basis and I would say if an 8 was really up there they wouldn't flaunt what they were. Most people are average health as far as I am concerned.
Why wouldn't a healthy person flaunt their health? Why is that a bad thing?
 
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