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Ataru vs Juyo: Which wins?

  • Juyo

    Votes: 4 57.1%
  • Ataru

    Votes: 3 42.9%
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Say two equally skilled duelists challenge each other. One uses Ataru and the other uses Juyo. Which form do you believe would prove superior?
Ataru: Form IV - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki
Juyo: Form VII - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki
a bit of an unfair question, because you have to be a masterful swordsman to even be considered for Juyo training. however, imo, if we assume the combatants were of relatively skilled: Ataru. the stamina of jedi is greatly exaggerated, and the Juyo wielding jedi would either tire or be picked off by an opening due to very broad, dramatic attacks. however, the true bane of Juyo is Makashi imo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
a bit of an unfair question, because you have to be a masterful swordsman to even be considered for Juyo training. however, imo, if we assume the combatants were of relatively skilled: Ataru. the stamina of jedi is greatly exaggerated, and the Juyo wielding jedi would either tire or be picked off by an opening due to very broad, dramatic attacks. however, the true bane of Juyo is Makashi imo.
Its essentially a question of Speed and Accuracy (Ataru) vs Power and Speed (Juyo). Both are heavily offense focused. However, Makashi is also likely to crumble under Juyo's power. Just like Djem So powered through Makashi with Anakin vs Dooku. Makashi could cut down Juyo but they have to be able to work around a powerhouse.
 

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Its essentially a question of Speed and Accuracy (Ataru) vs Power and Speed (Juyo). Both are heavily offense focused. However, Makashi is also likely to crumble under Juyo's power. Just like Djem So powered through Makashi with Anakin vs Dooku. Makashi could cut down Juyo but they have to be able to work around a powerhouse.
fuuuuck, I got Forms IV and III mixed up. my vote changes to Juyo. Makashi and Soresu beat Juyo, but Juyo beats everything else (save for possibly a clever Niman user). Ataru has too much useless, acrobatic bullshit to be effective as a fighting style
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
fuuuuck, I got Forms IV and III mixed up. my vote changes to Juyo. Makashi and Soresu beat Juyo, but Juyo beats everything else (save for possibly a clever Niman user). Ataru has too much useless, acrobatic bullshit to be effective as a fighting style
A Juyo specialist has been reported to break the defense of a Soresu master. Rare to occur but Juyo can do it. Juyo would most likely be weak to the counters of Djem So and the Force abilities that are chained in with Niman.
 

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Yeah, I think Ataru looks more elegant and exciting, but in the end I think blunter and more powerful attacks win the day. After all, it's not about who looks better in a saber fight -- typically you win or you die, and the quicker you win, the better. I also see a use for not completely isolating parts of yourself from a conflict; channeled emotion would seem to make one more powerful.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yeah, I think Ataru looks more elegant and exciting, but in the end I think blunter and more powerful attacks win the day. After all, it's not about who looks better in a saber fight -- typically you win or you die, and the quicker you win, the better. I also see a use for not completely isolating parts of yourself from a conflict; channeled emotion would seem to make one more powerful.
Well, not every Ataru user incorporates the acrobatics all the time. Qui-Gon wasn't hopping around. He was more focused on the quick blade work. And if you bring up Maul's Juyo killing Qui-Gon, you have to remember that Qui-Gon was ordered to discover Maul's identity. So, Qui-Gon was trying to wear down and disarm Maul. Not kill him.
 

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A Juyo specialist has been reported to break the defense of a Soresu master. Rare to occur but Juyo can do it.
the question is: can do they do so before their own guard slips and/or they get tired (thus slower, more predictable and sloppier)?

Juyo would most likely be weak to the counters of Djem So and the Force abilities that are chained in with Niman.
Djem So is overrated. too predictable and slow. you don't need power when you have a beam of pure energy which can cut through virtually anything.

PS: in general, I feel like the lightsaber forms were developed by people who didn't have a whole lot of experience with live martial arts (it's mostly contributed to via video game geeks who view swordfighting as if it can be reduced to pokemon stats)

PPS: come to think of it

overrated:
- Form V: brutish, predictable, lacks caution, approaches swordplay as if it's a hand to hand brawl or sports game
- Form IV: explained previously
- Form VII: powerful, and lethal in the right hands, but not all it's cracked up to be, and definitely not a good choice for any but the most intense, competitive and disciplined of temperaments
- double lightsabers in general: a ridiculously cumbersome and easy to read weapon.

underrated:
- Form II: weak to blaster fire, but that can be compensated for (blaster fire deflection has little to do with swordplay. a few classes could be taken on that separately). Makashi is unsurpassed as a dueling style with it's efficiency, precision, counter-attacks and defense
- Form III: good overall defense, quick like II and VII, efficient use of energy and movement
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
the question is: can do they do so before their own guard slips and/or they get tired (thus slower, more predictable and sloppier)?



Djem So is overrated. too predictable and slow. you don't need power when you have a beam of pure energy which can cut through virtually anything.

PS: in general, I feel like the lightsaber forms were developed by people who didn't have a whole lot of experience with live martial arts (it's mostly contributed to via video game geeks who view swordfighting as if it can be reduced to pokemon stats)

PPS: come to think of it

overrated:
- Form V: brutish, predictable, lacks caution, approaches swordplay as if it's a hand to hand brawl or sports game
- Form IV: explained previously
- Form VII: powerful, and lethal in the right hands, but not all it's cracked up to be, and definitely not a good choice for any but the most intense, competitive and disciplined of temperaments
- double lightsabers in general: a ridiculously cumbersome and easy to read weapon.

underrated:
- Form II: weak to blaster fire, but that can be compensated for (blaster fire deflection has little to do with swordplay. a few classes could be taken on that separately). Makashi is unsurpassed as a dueling style with it's efficiency, precision, counter-attacks and defense
- Form III: good overall defense, quick like II and VII, efficient use of energy and movement
Makashi's weakness is its defense when dealing with kinetic strikes. If the Makashi user is forced onto defense to a fast and strong duelist, it's only a matter of time. Again, Anakin vs Dooku is an example. Another is Revan vs Malak. Malak once attempted to overthrow Revan, but Malak lost his jaw. Malak used Makashi and Ataru. Revan used Juyo as a Sith in single enemy combat. Revan defeated Malak. The power and speed of Juyo kept the Makashi user on defense with no chance to work around Revan's offense. Makashi may be the form most geared towards dueling but it isn't infallible.
 

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Makashi's weakness is its defense when dealing with kinetic strikes. If the Makashi user is forced onto defense to a fast and strong duelist, it's only a matter of time. Again, Anakin vs Dooku is an example. Another is Revan vs Malak. Malak once attempted to overthrow Revan, but Malak lost his jaw. Malak used Makashi and Ataru. Revan used Juyo as a Sith in single enemy combat. Revan defeated Malak. The power and speed of Juyo kept the Makashi user on defense with no chance to work around Revan's offense. Makashi may be the form most geared towards dueling but it isn't infallible.
again, you are coming from this from the standpoint of someone who is not a swordsman. "powerful kinetic strikes" do not have a lot of relevance in actual combat, particularly when you have a laser weapon which can cut through anything
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
again, you are coming from this from the standpoint of someone who is not a swordsman. "powerful kinetic strikes" do not have a lot of relevance in actual combat, particularly when you have a laser weapon which can cut through anything
It's practicality over the label of a "Swordsman". It doesn't change the fact that a swordsman was beaten by a brute. And these strikes do have application. If I attack you with a fast and powerful strike, you'd have to block with at least the same force, to avoid your own lightsaber cutting through you and it wears on your strength reserves to defend the attacks. If I have more strength than you, sooner or later, your defense will crumble.
 

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It's practicality over the label of a "Swordsman". It doesn't change the fact that a swordsman was beaten by a brute.
it also wasn't a terribly realistic battle (not to mention Anakin was in his early 20s while Dooku was pushing 80)

And these strikes do have application. If I attack you with a fast and powerful strike, you'd have to block with at least the same force, to avoid your own lightsaber cutting through you and it wears on your strength reserves to defend the attacks. If I have more strength than you, sooner or later, your defense will crumble.
assuming there was an infinite amount of friction, yes, but two beams of energy pushing up against each other are going to slight a lot.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
it also wasn't a terribly realistic battle (not to mention Anakin was in his early 20s while Dooku was pushing 80)


assuming there was an infinite amount of friction, yes, but two beams of energy pushing up against each other are going to slight a lot.
Do you honestly think a person is gonna try stabbing when a saber is coming right at them? No. They're gonna defend against it. It's unrealistic to get the enemy to fight your kind of duel rather than fight his? That's what Anakin did. You think he'd try using precise fencing against a Makashi master? That's how you get beaten.
 

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Do you honestly think a person is gonna try stabbing when a saber is coming right at them? No. They're gonna defend against it. It's unrealistic to get the enemy to fight your kind of duel rather than fight his? That's what Anakin did. You think he'd try using precise fencing against a Makashi master? That's how you get beaten.
....that's not what I meant
 

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Do you honestly think a person is gonna try stabbing when a saber is coming right at them? No. They're gonna defend against it. It's unrealistic to get the enemy to fight your kind of duel rather than fight his? That's what Anakin did. You think he'd try using precise fencing against a Makashi master? That's how you get beaten.
Not that you can block light with light in real life. :p
 
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