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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As niss correctly pointed out, we are likened to engineers. The stereotypical engineer is terrible at public relations, or the socializing skills of a business man.

To make the ultimate powerhouse of industry, the Engineer could learn through brute force and experience (the same way he learned mathematics, physics and chemistry) the rules of social interactions. He would be unstoppable.

Fellow ISTJ's, and other types willing to be useful in their criticism, what other flaws do we have in general, and how can we work to improve them?

niss said:
Wake--now you're talkin'. We sit on those feelings, squashing them down, packin' 'em tight until one it explodes. And then we start reciting that Humpty Dumpty poem, 'cuz there ain't no puttin' it back together now.

And that is where ISTJs are wrong and need to learn to embrace their Ne.

As an older, more mature ISTJ, you will be wound less tight and will likely turn into the doting grandparent. Oh, you'll still be an ISTJ and want order and schedules, and things done right, but you will see things so differently.

If you want to get off of the emotional yo-yo feeling, which leaves those around you scratching their heads and wondering what's going on between your ears, embrace your emotions. Explore them. Learn about them, what caused them, and how they make you feel.

Why? I'm gonna explain it this way: You are an ISTJ. You understand your outer world by comparing it to a catalog of experiences stored in your memory bank. Things that don't make sense to you are quickly examined and then disregarded as irrelevant. However, your emotions keep coming back. Over and over. Until you finally take the time to understand them.

This is the most important point:

As an ISTJ you MUST understand something in order for it to be meaningful. As your fellow ISTJ, I am here to tell you that emotions are some of the most important things in life you will ever seek to understand. For in them lies the passion of the person.

We talk of skills. Hard skills. Getting things done skills. But we don't understand people skills. If you will learn people skills, you are unstoppable.

The engineer (civil, electrical, chemical, mechanical, I don't care) gets paid well for what he knows and does with hard skills. The MBA over the department that the engineer works for gets paid well for what he knows and does with people skills. The person that commands the most respect and the highest marketability is the engineer with the MBA's people skills. They understand the technical and understand how to get others to buy in to the project.

This topic we've touched on is so big and is so much at the core of what limits ISTJs from achieving their potential. I'll quit for fear of derailing the thread.
This thread was started from the Cheating topic, to be continued here.
 

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Another issue is that ISTJs can be unwilling to see things from other people's perspectives. They tend to be rather one-sided and uncomrpomising in conflict. They may need to learn to acknowledge that people's feelings are also very important criterion in making decisions.

Being guardians, sometimes they focus on all of what is wrong and rather than what is right.. This can be both a strength--as ISTJs will almost always be prepared, but it can make them very pessimistic as well. And many people do not want to hear about people's complaints--they would refer you to be positive.

Just poking fun, but do ISTJs really make good engineers? I would normally see most NTs being better than we are at engineering (in general, not on a case-by-case basis).
 

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Fear.

Fear is our biggest de-motivator.

Apathy.

We are plagued with apathy when it comes to social topics, change, and self-improvement.

Emotions.

We are scared to death to reveal our emotions. We fear that they may denote weakness, or worse yet, that someone will know us and be able to use that knowledge against us.

These are the big picture items.

By coupling these three items together, you end up with the "stuck in a rut", "unemotional", and "lack of creativity/unable to think outside of the box" complaints we ISTJs so often hear from other types. To succeed we will have to overcome this.

I don't want to do all of the thinking and posting on this topic. I have a lot of thoughts churning in my head, but I want to hear from the other ISTJ guys and gals. Right now, 26 of you have viewed this post, but have stepped back.

You have something to share. Personally, I'd like to hear it.:happy:
 

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On the topic of emotions--as an ISTJ, I don't really fear showing people emotions. I understand that they do not denote weakness and am not afraid that people will use their knowledge of our emotions against us.

My problems with expressing emotions have usually been along the lines of dismissing the importance of them. I focus on what I "should" feel or how I "should" act. Strong emotions don't really help you make good decisions, and it is better to be objective--at least that's what I tell myself. After all, we can only control how we are acting. Another issue is that I do not think all the problems with emotions can effectively be resolved (especially since most of the things I get angry about are when my values are violated. . . compromising on values will never work), so I feel like I have to sweep emotions related to those feelings under the carpet.

I have not always had confidence in my ability to express my emotions in an effective manner so that I do not end up alienating people (especially when I think there can be no compromise--then it is a win-lose argument). It is difficult for me to show calmness when I am angry and discussing emotions, so I can get pretty condescending. Since offending someone with whom I need to continue having a relationship would be the consequence of talking about something emotional, and I would not wish to ruin the relationship, I think that I would have to continue bottling up my emotions. And besides, I do not want to burden anyone with the things I am feeling or take up their time. As such,this can go on until I explode.

That said, most of the time, emotion for me consists of happiness (my ideal, at least it's most of the time that I feel this way), anger, or hurt. I don't think I feel much sadness (unless something bad happens).
 

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Another issue is that ISTJs can be unwilling to see things from other people's perspectives. They tend to be rather one-sided and uncomrpomising in conflict. They may need to learn to acknowledge that people's feelings are also very important criterion in making decisions.

Being guardians, sometimes they focus on all of what is wrong and rather than what is right.. This can be both a strength--as ISTJs will almost always be prepared, but it can make them very pessimistic as well. And many people do not want to hear about people's complaints--they would refer you to be positive.

Just poking fun, but do ISTJs really make good engineers? I would normally see most NTs being better than we are at engineering (in general, not on a case-by-case basis).
Ah kitty, ya beat me. And I love you for it.

You are exactly right. We assume that we are right until proven otherwise. And we get this "rightness" from comparing the incoming stimuli to our rich storehouse of cataloged data. If it measures up to what we know and have experienced, then we agree with it and file it away. But if it does not coincide with what we have previously experienced, it is suspect and must be researched and a proper course of action for that data determined.

The problem with this is that we are quick to reject what we see as irrelevant. That is why teachers must establish relevance of a topic if they wish to keep our interest in the subject. This is particularly true about abstract topics--including emotions. And what could be worse than an abstract topic that you can feel, but you can't describe or catalog. I mean, you feel it, so you know it is there, but how do you quantify it, qualify it, and most importantly, deal with it?

So, as you have pointed out, we tend to ignore people's feelings, focus on the details of the issue, become entrenched in the conflict, and too often lose out in the bigger picture. To combat this tendency, we must enter into a discussion with the idea of seeking first to understand the other person's perspective so that we can better know it's merits and weaknesses. Once we have understood the other person's perspective, now we can seek to show them our perspective. Doing this one thing will eliminate most of your conflicts with other people.

You have mentioned pessimism. And you are correct. We do come across very pessimistic. Sometimes I can seem to only see the pitfalls and potential failings in an endeavor. No, it is not true that we are truly pessimistic, but in our desire to not make a mistake and to be prepared for contingencies, we can appear pessimistic to other people. This we must work to over come. Since the reality is that we are not actually pessimistic, but we seem that way to others, what we must do is to change our language so that it more accurately reflects what we are really feeling. Couch your thoughts in a more positive frame. IOW, say the same thing but say it in a positive manner.

Remember the scene in Dead Poets Society where Neil decides he is going to try out for the play? He comes in and tells Tod what he is going to do and Tod (classic ISTJ, BTW) begins to shoot holes in Neil's plan. Finally Neil, in exasperation, asks Tod, "Whose side are you on, anyway?" Watching this, I would suspect that most ISTJs would not even realize how negative Tod is being until Neil gets upset. Watch yourself--you can be negative without realizing it. You can watch it beginning at 7:29 in the video:

YouTube - Dead Poets Society Part 5

And yes, ISTJs make excellent engineers. :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
That clip certainly rings a bell with me. I really need to work on expressing myself in a positive manner.

For me, it's most certainly apathy and fear. Fear of saying "Hi." was always something that bothered me. I have worked very hard on forcing myself to be more social, and I have no regretted it at all. But, I still feel the rush of emotions, and the mental barrage of "What if...?" 's when I go to talk to a new person. But, it is getting easier to take the plunge.

As for apathy, it generally comes in my relationships with young ladies. I am happy, excited, thrilled, etc when the chase is on. But, if it ends before I am emotionally attached (ISTJ takes forever... lol) I lose all attraction, including my sexual feelings. Then I stop caring. It's really brutal for both of us. The young lady is left there thinking (evidence is in her facial expressions....) , "What just happened? I poured my heart out, and offered myself... and he's gone."
 

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Wow. I just watched the clip. I know I would have said the exact same thing or at least said something along those lines if I was in that sort of situation.

What I was going to contribute has already been said in this topic, so I'll just go and give an example of what I personally have experienced with one of these areas, and how I'm overcoming them (or at least dealing with them). I guess I'll go with emotions.

For the longest time, I would deal with my emotions either by not dealing with them at all or by replacing them with anger (which at the times I thought it was a more "suitable" way to deal with what I was going through). So if I felt happy, I didn't show it. Maybe I'd smile, but I usually didn't. I always thought to myself, "Meh, I don't feel particularly inclined to show this, even though I am."

Sadness? Never show tears in front of everyone and if I did, get angry at myself for doing so (this ties a bit into the way I was raised since unfortunately, my parents were abusive.)

Seeing something funny? Even now, I still have a rather...actually I have no idea how to describe my laughter, since it's not necessarily a large guffaw-like laughter nor a slight giggle. It sounds more along the lines of just expelling air out of my lungs multiple times.

But anger? Hoo boy. Though I would try not to show it, my issues with anger were such that I'd gladly embrace it and let it cloud my judgment on events and people. If I felt bad, such as whenever I was criticized, I'd first feel sad, taking it personally, then I'd switch it to anger. Whether it was toward myself (which it usually was) or toward the other person, I'd turn it to anger rather than deal with it as it is.

As a result of pushing them away and/or turning it to anger, I didn't have much experience truly feeling my emotions. This has caused all sorts of problems in my life. For example, trying to suppress them ended up making me dwell on them further. I'd have to say it was similar to trying not to think of elephants. I'd end up doing so anyway.

Now that I've been trying to feel them properly...the bad feelings feel less intense, and the good ones feel more intense.

It's funny how sometimes the things you do to keep other things from happening end up causing your problems in the first place.
 

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Fear of saying "Hi." was always something that bothered me.
For me, this is it. Fear of reaching out to people. I always wait to be approached.

Having given this a few minutes' thought, I've just realized that all of my closest friends have something in common: 1) they all approached me first (despite the fact that they found me silent, aloof and not at all approachable), and 2) they stayed around long enough to discover that I'm different from their initial expectations, whether due to circumstances or (oddly enough) their own volition.

In the past I've attributed my less than ideal "first encounter" attitude to my shyness. While it's partially true, I now think it's also a mixture of fearing the new, laziness on my part and even some arrogance. Laziness in that I refuse to put in the effort to make conversation, or socialize; arrogance in thinking I have my handful of friends that I already know well, and that I don't need to get to know new people.

Writing this post, I'm realizing I may have lost myself a number of potential friends. Heck *I* probably wouldn't have the heart to approach and say hi to someone who looked like me. I'm starting to think that it may be time to let more of myself show through to people, even when I'm seeing them for the first time.
 

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My experience

I generally understand my emotions. That is to say I know what I am feeling and why I am feeling. However, I take a logical approach to them. So, if I am sad (for something unseemly might have happenned) I might think that I am not justified in feeling sad as it was my fault. And so I deal with emotions in a logical manner (except I don't think that logic and feelings go together very well :unsure:).

As much Introverted I am, despite this I can be very outgoing initially to the point of being extrovert. So, I don't have troubles/ hesitation in approaching someone for friendship and to say hi (if I want to befriend them due to shared interests).

Though, One event that occurred with me was this:
Years ago when I initially found out that I was an INTJ and was amazed at the way the description described me, I immediately set out to explore MBTI. I read through strengths and weaknesses of my type. I was happy about my strengths but obviously not about weakness (which was generally about how INTJ's appear cold and unfriendly). So, in my quest to perfect myself- I immediately thought that if I could get rid of my weaknesses, I would only be left with strengths which was perfect. So, I set out to appear more friendly, being socially nice, always taking into consideration others feelings, etc.

Initially, it was weird but after a while as I got used to it and I realized I was succeeding. However, I also realized that my strengths were getting reduced as well. I was chaging into an INFJ. At that point it struck me. I was, by trying to remove my weakness, changing my personality. It was nothing short of changing my identity on purpose which I didn't want. I ceased all efforts and soon transformed back into a typical INTJ.

Now as I see it, trying to remove our limits/ weakness might very well change your type. If it does then a) your identity and behaiour will completely change and b) the new type will come with its own sets of strengths and weaknesses so in the end you have achieved nothing. So, my take since then has been not to try to change my weakness but accept it. If I think my weaknesses are pulling me down then realize it as you weakness rather than defending your actions. Soon with time, we would grow and develop as a person and those weakness should become lesser and lesser once we begin to admit it.
 

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I generally understand my emotions. That is to say I know what I am feeling and why I am feeling. However, I take a logical approach to them. So, if I am sad (for something unseemly might have happenned) I might think that I am not justified in feeling sad as it was my fault. And so I deal with emotions in a logical manner (except I don't think that logic and feelings go together very well :unsure:).

As much Introverted I am, despite this I can be very outgoing initially to the point of being extrovert. So, I don't have troubles/ hesitation in approaching someone for friendship and to say hi (if I want to befriend them due to shared interests).

Though, One event that occurred with me was this:
Years ago when I initially found out that I was an INTJ and was amazed at the way the description described me, I immediately set out to explore MBTI. I read through strengths and weaknesses of my type. I was happy about my strengths but obviously not about weakness (which was generally about how INTJ's appear cold and unfriendly). So, in my quest to perfect myself- I immediately thought that if I could get rid of my weaknesses, I would only be left with strengths which was perfect. So, I set out to appear more friendly, being socially nice, always taking into consideration others feelings, etc.

Initially, it was weird but after a while as I got used to it and I realized I was succeeding. However, I also realized that my strengths were getting reduced as well. I was chaging into an INFJ. At that point it struck me. I was, by trying to remove my weakness, changing my personality. It was nothing short of changing my identity on purpose which I didn't want. I ceased all efforts and soon transformed back into a typical INTJ.

Now as I see it, trying to remove our limits/ weakness might very well change your type. If it does then a) your identity and behaiour will completely change and b) the new type will come with its own sets of strengths and weaknesses so in the end you have achieved nothing. So, my take since then has been not to try to change my weakness but accept it. If I think my weaknesses are pulling me down then realize it as you weakness rather than defending your actions. Soon with time, we would grow and develop as a person and those weakness should become lesser and lesser once we begin to admit it.
I half agree with you and half don't. I think there's a key difference in trying to improve upon one's weaknesses and getting rid of trying to get rid of them completely. It goes back to a thread I made a while back:

http://personalitycafe.com/general-chat/28193-being-yourself-vs-changing-improvement.html

While it can be hard to distinguish when you should just "be yourself" and when you should work to change things about yourself in order to improve, I think a good balance can be achieved.

So I agree with you that you shouldn't try to get rid of your weaknesses, since like you said, that inherently is going to diminish your strengths as well...I agree that the only way to totally eliminate your weaknesses is to take away your strengths in some way as well.

However, I still think one can improve upon their weaknesses, which can be done without taking away from one's strengths. The key thing I've found out is that when you improve, it has to be something that you truly want to do, not something you want to do for someone else. This way, the improvement actually is being yourself.

I like to think of it more as not removing a weakness, but developing parts of yourself that you're not as strong in as you are other parts. To me this is best seen in preferences, since everyone experience both preferences for each group. I'm an introvert, but that doesn't mean that I never want to be around people. I'm a sensor, but that doesn't mean that I can't brainstorm and think about "big picture" issues. I can strengthen my other preferences without diminishing my natural ones...the key thing is understanding that my natural ones are important to me and are wonderful for me, and by working on the others, I'm not devaluing my natural ones in any way.



Anyway...I read this thread since ISTJ's are so similar to ISFJ's, and I thought I might be able to add some input. But I can't really think of a good way to word everything, so instead I'll offer the "Advice for ISTJ's" that I read in one of my MBTI books: :happy:

Advice for ISTJ's:

-Learn to negotiate and try to see things from other perspectives.

-Make it a rule to say "I love you" at least once a week.

-Avoid being overly cautious and rigid in your thinking. Be open to seeing that there is not just one right way of doing things.

-Do something impulsive now and then. Be lazy and goof off once in a while.

-Share your humorous thoughts more often.

-Avoid having conversations that can only end in win-lose propositions.

-Pay attention to your own and others' emotions; develop the habit of putting words to the feelings you have.

-Listen for data about the needs and feelings of others.

-Make an extra effort to express appreciation for others, even for the small things they do.

-Take time for relaxation and play. Don't forget to use you allotted vacation time.

-Appreciate your strengths of being diligent, practical, precise, logical, dependable, dutiful, sensible, orderly, steady, thorough, hardworking and persevering.



I definitely like the ones about not overworking yourself. My mom is an ISTJ, and over these last five years or so she's been taking off more time from work than she ever has in her life, and its' really helped her enjoy her life and make the most of it. I know that most people don't have the option of working less, but I think ISTJ's can try to not take their work quite so seriously, especially if it's giving them tons of stress. This is something that as an ISFJ I've tried to work on as well, and I find I'm much happier when I try to relax about everything more.


I hope some of my fellow Si-dominant brethren get something out of this post. :wink:
 

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Where to start. I've read all the posts and everything I was going to say, as been said. This is very difficult for me to express.....dealing with emotions/feelings.

Fear the " What if's" that have paralyzed me in some facets of my life.

Apathy.

We are plagued with apathy when it comes to social topics, change, and self-improvement.

I've attempted the self-improvement, I have a small library of books, cd's and dvd's on self-improvement and I'm back to square 1. Laziness to put what I learn into action....maybe. Fear of losing the me I know... could be.

Emotions - fear of letting someone know me and possibly use that against me.

These 3 items have me in that "rut", "unemotional" box. The inter-battle of changing or just be happy with who I am, at times, is mentally tiring.



thanks to everyone for all your posts. They have started me thinking.
 
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I love it when ISTJs get honest with themselves. Why? Because they are ISTJs and if they see a need to improve, they are sure to be restless within themselves until they change what it is that they see needs improved. That's how we are wired.

It doesn't mean that we'll be successful the first time, but that we will eventually overcome.

Have any of you talked to a nutritionist in the last 5 years or so? Do you know how they approach achieving good nutrition and exercise? By choosing one thing and changing it for a long term improvement.

Used to, the nutritionist approached you with the "if you eat any fried foods, you are gonna die and go to hell" type of attitude. But by seeking to make smaller lifestyle changes, they are now pointing us into a general direction of eating better and doing a little more exercise without making us into pro-athletes. IOW, you can still have twinkies, but you just can't have them every day.

Similarly, tackle your self-improvement problems in this manner. I think it was in the "so lonely" thread by mercer that I first tackled this problem. Read that thread to get a more detailed view.

Start small. Make it a point to greet people that come within 10 feet of you with a smile and a nod. It doesn't matter if they notice or not--we're doing this for us. After you get comfortable with that, then try something new, like speaking to all of the cashiers when you are buying something. Say something nice and outside of the normal transaction chatter. Be open and smile and you'll go far.

Start with these and add other things as you feel comfortable. And prepare to be amazed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
In my own life, I have begun to tackle many of these problems, because I noticed them AS problems. I believe that the tendency to change what is wrong is very beneficial when applied to oneself.

As I continue on into my 20s, I find myself (as niss has pointed out in a few posts) that I am using my F functions more and more. I find this to be very thrilling, because it has been a huge de-motivator, and fear in my life. As a result of showing my emotions, and opening up more as a whole, I find that my relationships move along more quickly, and my social standing moves forward as well. It's very liberating to know that people won't nail you to a cross for being less-than perfect at everything, and for showing some emotion. I find myself saying "I feel..." more often than "I think..." lately, and people have commented on it in a shocked (with a smile on their face) way.

Aside from being more in-tune with my emotions, I've worked on being more social. This, more than anything has enhanced my life. It's getting to the point where I have a new friend that knows about these personality tests, and was shocked to hear I was not an ESTJ. Clearly she doesn't know about the distinction between an ISTJ and an ESTJ is not merely the Extroversion vs Introversion factor. Oh well, something more to talk about.

However, I am still struggling to understand Intuitive types. It's so very confusing to me. I am starting to be able to empathize with F types, but intuitives are so very foreign to me. I have a very hard time relating to them. I would like to understand them, but they refuse to be broken into small, bite-sized pieces that can be analyzed under the microscope.

Perhaps any of you older, and wiser ISTJ's have some advice for us younger ones. I would love to hear it. Any topic is fine, but I would prefer the topics of relationships (sexual and non), and the topic of intuitive types.
 

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As niss correctly pointed out, we are likened to engineers. The stereotypical engineer is terrible at public relations, or the socializing skills of a business man.

To make the ultimate powerhouse of industry, the Engineer could learn through brute force and experience (the same way he learned mathematics, physics and chemistry) the rules of social interactions. He would be unstoppable.

Fellow ISTJ's, and other types willing to be useful in their criticism, what other flaws do we have in general, and how can we work to improve them?



This thread was started from the Cheating topic, to be continued here.
Singlemindedness, and their need for security.
 

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In my own life, I have begun to tackle many of these problems, because I noticed them AS problems. I believe that the tendency to change what is wrong is very beneficial when applied to oneself.

As I continue on into my 20s, I find myself (as niss has pointed out in a few posts) that I am using my F functions more and more. I find this to be very thrilling, because it has been a huge de-motivator, and fear in my life. As a result of showing my emotions, and opening up more as a whole, I find that my relationships move along more quickly, and my social standing moves forward as well. It's very liberating to know that people won't nail you to a cross for being less-than perfect at everything, and for showing some emotion. I find myself saying "I feel..." more often than "I think..." lately, and people have commented on it in a shocked (with a smile on their face) way.

Aside from being more in-tune with my emotions, I've worked on being more social. This, more than anything has enhanced my life. It's getting to the point where I have a new friend that knows about these personality tests, and was shocked to hear I was not an ESTJ. Clearly she doesn't know about the distinction between an ISTJ and an ESTJ is not merely the Extroversion vs Introversion factor. Oh well, something more to talk about.

However, I am still struggling to understand Intuitive types. It's so very confusing to me. I am starting to be able to empathize with F types, but intuitives are so very foreign to me. I have a very hard time relating to them. I would like to understand them, but they refuse to be broken into small, bite-sized pieces that can be analyzed under the microscope.

Perhaps any of you older, and wiser ISTJ's have some advice for us younger ones. I would love to hear it. Any topic is fine, but I would prefer the topics of relationships (sexual and non), and the topic of intuitive types.
I have been changing in a similar way. By spending time with 'feeling' oriented people especially an ENFP I have realised the value of taking other people's feelings into account when making decisions and before speaking or suggesting something. So if I can catch myself I attempt to be considerate rather than just going off my hard logic. Although this can fall away if I spend time around EST's which is annoying!

I've also learned to put on an 'extroverted' face due to my job and constant dealing with people. Although if I spend alot of time around people I do beome very drained/overwhelmed and have a strong desire to pull back to the quiet. It has just become natural to go upto people and say hi; I do struggle with this sometimes, more with people I already know... I don't want to say hi cause I feel like I might disrupt them or to seem pushy or intrusive and I don't want to seem rude.

I don't like it if people bother me when I'm busy or having my own time, and I think this is something that prevents me from taking the initiative in spending time with friends. That, and I really value time to myself. One of the reasons for this is I tend to be able to feel my emotions better when I'm alone. If I'm around other people I usually just feel blank, or there is so much going on I don't know how to feel cause I'm trying to look like I'm feeling like I should or just to take everything in and be acting in an appropriate way. Another is I'm in control when I'm alone, I don't have to fit in with what someone else wants to do - I think I need to be more assertive about my own needs when I'm in the company of others, its really tough for me.

I too have a lot of difficulty understanding those intuitive types, they're just on a different planet! Constantly surprise me. However, I value my sister's input and how she understands me (she is an ENFJ). She knows how I think, and luckily most of the time when I'm struggling has the patience to explain things and break them down 'bit-by-bit'.

Regarding the 'J', my mum is a strong J and as a result I am trying to rebel against my J tendencies! I jump into situations that I'm surprised by: swallowing my initial instinct to want to plan and using my courage to leap in. I'm also trying to be more relaxed and let go in social settings rather than being more uptight. Just getting into it and faking having a good time, and I actually end up having a good time.

Also an interesting point for me, I'm not sure if those who know me as 'friends' would see me as an ISTJ - they think I have excellent empathy, good communication skills, and am outgoing and confident. It's really only my family members and those really close to me who can see the true ISTJ come out. My Dad thinks I'm like 7 of 9 from Star Trek! lol.

Thanks guys, interesting discussion. Hope you can relate to some of these things.
 
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