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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I don't know much about enneagram, but today I became curious about the instictual variants because I never understood what they are. I took a test and learned that I'm supposedly 5w4 sx/sp. I'm still not sure what's the idea behind those letters, but I came across brief descriptions and they sound interestingly accurate (while the descriptions of other variants do not). Especially these:

Intimate Fives trust only a few people but then do so totally. Friendship is based on the sharing of confidences. Intimacy is equivalent to exchanging secrets. Can go from enigmatic, deliberate distance to intense, unguarded openness.
Relationships can be difficult, because individuals of this subtype will still want their own space and alone time, while at other times will want intense connection. Because the social instinct is least developed, this subtype is not very concerned with how others perceive them (except their intimates). This subtype is deceptive in that they may not seem to be especially intense - until they are engaged in a conversation they find interesting. Then the intensity and emotion become apparent.
As long as I can remember, I've had this weirdly intense longing for someone with whom I can abandon all my boundaries. It feels very conflicting in terms of my other personality traits, so I've often wondered where it comes from. I can't explain it and yet it's always there. On those rare occasions when I find someone I can connect with I can get quickly too intense, then realize it's one-sided and distance myself. I've only had one person in my life who went along with it and enjoyed it as much as I, but unfortunately our friendship suffered from his family life. I think that it was more of an experiment to him than an actual need. I really do seem to desperately need this, even though my introverted rational non-romantic mind tells me it's nonsense. Please tell me I'm not alone with my silly desire. (I already feel a bit shamed about this post...)
 

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You are not alone. I feel this need also, but have not yet found anybody who I can be completely honest with. Sometimes I doubt I will ever find somebody like that.
 

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Dunno if it's quite the same thing but the idea of an intense, almost all consuming, push-pull romance is definitely my bag.
 

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Nope, you are not alone. I should think that someone whom I've bonded with years and years ago and then stopped completely in all forms of contact should stop the longing, but it doesn't happen. It could be because it is hard for us to find someone that we can connect to on a deep level - and then to lose that person just like that and be left alone again, it shocks us really (regardless of how illogical or unproductive to think that way).

Maybe we just really want someone to really understand us.
 

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I have found very few people in my life which allowed me to be open or safe or 100% myself. I still want them though.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Dunno if it's quite the same thing but the idea of an intense, almost all consuming, push-pull romance is definitely my bag.
That sounds too complicated. Ideally, I would want to find a partner who enables the level of openness I need, but at the moment I would be happy with a platonic friend too.
 

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What can any one of us ever really fuckin' hope for, huh? Except for a moment here and there with a person who doesn't want to rob, steal or murder us? At night, it may happen. Sun-up, one person against the fuckin' wall, the other may hop on the fuckin' bed, trusting each other enough to tell half the fucking truth. Everybody needs that. Becomes precious to 'em. They don't want to see it fucked with. --Al Swearengen, Deadwood.
 

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The thing is, at this point I don't know if I would even know how to react if I were in such a situation. All of my instincts have been modified to assume this is impossible. It would probably require the other person to reach into that part of me themselves. Maybe that's why on some level I try to do that with others.
 

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This isn't the desire of every INTP, as they can be 5w6's and have an so/sp stacking. But I am a 5w4 sx/sp and yeah... I know exactly how you feel. You'll just need to find someone with the same stacking, which can be a little hard to find, but those passionate "all or nothing" people are out there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
The thing is, at this point I don't know if I would even know how to react if I were in such a situation. All of my instincts have been modified to assume this is impossible. It would probably require the other person to reach into that part of me themselves. Maybe that's why on some level I try to do that with others.
It probably is a bit impossible at least most of the time, and the moments of true openness are very brief even with closest friends. I've been both in situations where I was the one who was being overly open and where it was the other person while I felt uncomfortable; people's needs meet rarely.
 

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and where it was the other person while I felt uncomfortable.
That's interesting, because for some weird reason I don't get to that point with people at all. Unless it was their involvement with me. But I've found people do tend to open up around me because I'm genuinely trying to understand them and they can sense this. I don't make a lot of emotional assumptions of right or wrong about their psyche. I think feelers will accept someone on the surface, and even understand them further but they will readily decide whether they are good or bad. But that's ok because if they have those feelings they matter... I don't know I'm still trying to wrap my head around feelers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
That's interesting, because for some weird reason I don't get to that point with people at all. Unless it was their involvement with me.
I prefer both parties discuss things with the same level of openness, if that makes sense. The situation feels out of balance if the other person opens up and the other would rather talk about something else. I have a friend who tells me openly about her miserable sex life, and I really would not want to hear about her anal sex experiences. But it's definitely more uncomfortable to be the one who shares too much - I hate the moment when I realize I'm making the other person feel awkward with whatever it is I'm saying.

I sometimes think relationships have different levels depending on what kind of things can be discussed:
1. chit chat level
2. sharing some personal information, such as issues regarding taste
3. sharing more personal information, such as matters that involve personality
4. sharing fears, bad memories and other more sensitive things
5. commenting the other person's personality
6. acknowledging what can and cannot be discussed (discussion about discussion)
7. thorough discussion about the relationship itself
8. this is where I'm usually ready to be truly open

Hardly any relationships reach level 5, but it's the things from that onward that make relationships interesting for me. Opportunity to self-reflect.

But I've found people do tend to open up around me because I'm genuinely trying to understand them and they can sense this. I don't make a lot of emotional assumptions of right or wrong about their psyche. I think feelers will accept someone on the surface, and even understand them further but they will readily decide whether they are good or bad. But that's ok because if they have those feelings they matter... I don't know I'm still trying to wrap my head around feelers.
I too have noted that some people like me as a listener and believe it's mainly because I don't normally judge.
 

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I think I got that sp/sx duo (I'm not sure if the order matters? don't remember). In theory, the possibility of such a connection sounds pretty amazing, but then, the idea of a permament connection to that deep, total openness level makes me feel tired, drained. Maybe I'd like to be in that situation only if it allows me to engage/disengage, like two objects whose orbits sometimes synchronize and go close and parallel and then move away, and go back, and so on. I think of this 'communion' as something potentially enlightening but at the same time, there's always that fear of losing my freedom (of mind). Doesn't have to be romantic in nature, just human, though. I've come to think that the connection between two people is possible, but I'm not really sure it's possible for me. Unless I had the luck to find a kindred mind who understands/wants that such a level of openness can only allow more freedom, not the opposite...

I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, lol, I'm getting too abstract here...Gotta give it more thought, although I kind of get what you say.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I think I got that sp/sx duo (I'm not sure if the order matters? don't remember). In theory, the possibility of such a connection sounds pretty amazing, but then, the idea of a permament connection to that deep, total openness level makes me feel tired, drained. Maybe I'd like to be in that situation only if it allows me to engage/disengage, like two objects whose orbits sometimes synchronize and go close and parallel and then move away, and go back, and so on. I think of this 'communion' as something potentially enlightening but at the same time, there's always that fear of losing my freedom (of mind). Doesn't have to be romantic in nature, just human, though. I've come to think that the connection between two people is possible, but I'm not really sure it's possible for me. Unless I had the luck to find a kindred mind who understands/wants that such a level of openness can only allow more freedom, not the opposite...
I understand it could end up being draining in the long run. There would need to be a common understanding on that while everything can be shared it doesn't mean it will always happen.
 

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I prefer both parties discuss things with the same level of openness, if that makes sense. The situation feels out of balance if the other person opens up and the other would rather talk about something else. I have a friend who tells me openly about her miserable sex life, and I really would not want to hear about her anal sex experiences. But it's definitely more uncomfortable to be the one who shares too much - I hate the moment when I realize I'm making the other person feel awkward with whatever it is I'm saying.

I sometimes think relationships have different levels depending on what kind of things can be discussed:
1. chit chat level
2. sharing some personal information, such as issues regarding taste
3. sharing more personal information, such as matters that involve personality
4. sharing fears, bad memories and other more sensitive things
5. commenting the other person's personality
6. acknowledging what can and cannot be discussed (discussion about discussion)
7. thorough discussion about the relationship itself
8. this is where I'm usually ready to be truly open

Hardly any relationships reach level 5, but it's the things from that onward that make relationships interesting for me. Opportunity to self-reflect.
TOTALLY know what you mean right there. But to me that's not really getting close to number 5 at all, that's just telling the other person you had anal sex. If perhaps they began by describing number 4, or number six, and or one of the more important levels in general and then gave the example of how anal sex would exemplify this... well ok I guess. But it seems unnecessary, so many other examples can be used. But even with that example I wouldn't overreact and treat it as another datum that may or may not carry weight in the long run. I'm not going to make someone feel guilty for saying it. Maybe have them confront their motivation for saying it instead. Steering the conversation in directions that are ultimately more meaningful to them anyway.

And I like that point system, I think you're on to something there. It would be nice to self-reflect through some external medium.
 
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don't most people?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
But to me that's not really getting close to number 5 at all, that's just telling the other person you had anal sex.
Yeah, that's the problem.

don't most people?
Many say that, but do they really mean it? Or maybe it's just that what I mean by total openness is different to what most people mean by it. Brutal honesty is not something many want.
 
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