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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As an observation, i notice some INTJs, including myself, have jobs that don't fit into the idea of an INTJ.

For my short list, i was a baker, secretary, furniture delivery boy, and teacher. One of my INTJ friends was a bouncer/manager at a strip club. I don't mean manager in the sense that he pimped out the girls but rather dealt with their internal disputes and general moodiness about performing.

So, if in general we are attracted to research and organizational jobs, what causes INTJs to not seek more appealing jobs?
 
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Agreed. Life..... and being told in a repetitive manner by your parents (and everyone else) that because they can't understand you that you simply must buckle under and conform. A model in my teens because my father thought I was pretty. A bar manager because I was good at it (my organisational skills). There was a huge pressure for me to be anything but myself.

I don't believe I am lost however. A job is simply something you do, not who you are.
 

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As an observation, i notice some INTJs, including myself, have jobs that don't fit into the idea of an INTJ.

For my short list, i was a baker, secretary, furniture delivery boy, and teacher. One of my INTJ friends was a bouncer/manager at a strip club. I don't mean manager in the sense that he pimped out the girls but rather dealt with their internal disputes and general moodiness about performing.

So, if in general we are attracted to research and organizational jobs, what causes INTJs to not seek more appealing jobs?
May I bring in the point that a job is just a job, no more no less? It's not job that makes the person but rather the person makes of the job. Throughout history, I believe that any profession has had the potential to satisfy whatever that person's dream was. Of course different jobs have different methods to succeed. Even those who other people consider less human have come into positions of power, namely servants and eunuchs.

While research has a much more positive validation and approval than say prostitution, a prostitute acquiring money and power could easily open up a laboratory and conduct research to their liking. Also knowledge acquired is within that person, something that cannot be quantified by what job you're working at. So if the prostitute's dream was to open up a lab and do their research, they have the same potential, if not greater, than the researcher aiming for that Nobel prize.

It's called life. Aparently we have eat and pay rent and other banal crap.

Hence why I'm a conductor on metropolitan rail network.
While this is true that we have to survive, I must also point out that it doesn't take much to survive on this planet. All you need is air, food, water.

The conductor job was a job I actually pursued but as I learned that to get into the rail network was through connections, I dropped the thought because I didn't know anybody and was attending a university. Sometimes, I do admire those that have jobs I have pursued before and dislike seeing people who already have had the job and look down on their profession as menial.

___

As an additional note, I've always wanted to do research in a lab. I find that I can stay in a laboratory swirling chemicals for a full day and not whine like other people. But I know I will have to give up that dream temporarily because I cannot catch up with the strict schedules at school, filling in papers and do things at the instructor's pace. I like to take my time to learn everything at my own pace. My dream is to conduct my research however, I know I will never get that Ph. D. because getting accepted and devoting another 4+ years seems like jail just to validate myself that I can conduct research. In other words, its not worth the effort to show myself that I can be successful as any other certified Ph. D. Meanwhile, I would have to take jobs that others consider "menial, low, dirty, or even outta my type," but I know that with the vision, I will accomplish what my mind has set on before. I hope that anyone can see that too.

To answer the OP's last question, "what causes INTJs to not seek more appealing jobs?"

It is an internal problem, not external because it's not job that makes the person but rather the person makes of the job.
 

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Sometimes real life is just so interesting that investing the time and money that would be required to (possibly but not for sure) land a dream job is not worth it. Also, consider that many of the so-called intellectual jobs are in academia. And there's nothing free about academia.
quote that some may know:
“Academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small"...who wants to deal with that petty backstabbing junk.

You are not a number, you are a free man, etc., there's all of that too. You want to be free to come to the conclusions your thinking leads you to make, not those that are expedient. The higher you ascend in the Establishment, the more carefully you have to craft your words and behavior. Society is created by the Norm.

INTJs are not The Norm.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
A prostitute acquiring money and power could easily open up a laboratory and conduct research, if the prostitute's dream was to open up a lab and do research.
This is on the point of the question.If after starting this path, this person finds out that opening a lab becomes impossible or impractical, why wouldn't they switch jobs to continue to follow their goal? How can they wake up one morning and accept that they have lost their goal for their present reality and just give up?

I know I will never get that Ph. D. because getting accepted and devoting another 4+ years seems like jail just to validate myself that I can conduct research.
If you were INTJ i would ask you if the PhD represented something you wanted or if it was in itself the goal? If you want food you eat. If you want money you strive for better paying jobs. If you want a PhD then 4 years is what you have to do. So, is it relly the PhD that you want or something else?

To answer the OP's last question, "what causes INTJs to not seek more appealing jobs?"
It is an internal problem, not external because it's not job that makes the person but rather the person makes of the job.
I would generally agree with this. So what internal mechanism would do this?

In some respects a job is just a job. It pays the bills. But after the bills are paid you have an interest in something. Wouldn't it be more advantageous to find a job in a field that has an interest beyond paying the bills? It benefits you because you are more likely to excel at what you do rather than just do the job. Excelling at the job should benefit society (thus everyone) as well. I would generally expect people who just do a job because they have to are not as productive as people who do a job because it is something they want to do.

I was thinking behaviorism might play a role here. You take a job because you need to pay the bills but you intend to move to something you are more interested in down the road because of whatever mechanism that will allow you to do that. While at this job being INTJ you end up being one of the best. You boss praises you, you are indispensable, get heavier work loads because even though you don't care or don't like the job you are going to be good at it. INTJism. This doesn't mean you are the best you could be at the job. Why waste more energy than you have to?
I think the praise meets a twisted social need. At this job you are valuable. You don't know what you will be at the next job. So you stay. But, you can't shake a feeling of being lost. Something that just isn't right.

Hopefully that clarifies the nature of my question even though it is verbose.
 
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I've done the stereotypical INTJ thing -I got my PhD in physics in breakneck pace (I was 26). Then I joined a trading firm as a researcher, which is also quite INTJ. I'm sure INTJ is one of the most common types here - maybe there are more ENTJs, but I for instance am sure that all my team except for 1 are INTJs, and the other guy is I think an ISTJ.

As for lost, once I've filled my pockets to last me the rest of my life, I'll likely do something very different, maybe raise rheas.
 

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This is on the point of the question.If after starting this path, this person finds out that opening a lab becomes impossible or impractical, why wouldn't they switch jobs to continue to follow their goal? How can they wake up one morning and accept that they have lost their goal for their present reality and just give up?
I guess if the person has a individual mind, I am sure that it has all been tentatively planned or thought out and I suppose INTJs definitely have an individual mind. That being said, it may just be all part of a greater plan. Stability and a steady income could be a possible reason why they're not switching jobs. If this stability and steady income can be projected for a few years, then the research plans can happen in two or three years. Switching jobs means you deal with a new supervisor, colleagues, working environment, work politics, work material, and but not limited to living arrangements. This consideration would be too unstable although it seems to have more potential.

Also, it also has to do with the internal state of mind of that individual, namely, the perspective. The reason why I emphasize the individual mind is that the mind can do great things. As cliche as it sounds, think of this job you're working at as a painful region of your body. We all have experience on how our mind deals with pain. Either you focus on your pain or you focus on something else which diminishes the pain. If you're adept, you can forget about the pain. Of course, pains are much easier to deal with than jobs but the theory is there. If you're at a "bad job" and you want to jump shoot, plan for success, minimize pain, and jump when your potential has been reached to switch jobs.


If you were INTJ i would ask you if the PhD represented something you wanted or if it was in itself the goal? If you want food you eat. If you want money you strive for better paying jobs. If you want a PhD then 4 years is what you have to do. So, is it relly the PhD that you want or something else?
Before, I thought of it as a vessel that can bring me closer to my dreams. As I kept studying the material, I realize that I absolutely hate school, not the material. I find a lot of incompetence at school within the student and faculty body so I set forth to learn on my own. Unfortunately, I have problem of constantly focusing so I must learn things at my own pace. Once I learn them, they become mastered shortly.

A Ph. D. isn't prestigious as I thought it would be. In a sense, maybe I was caught up with the idea that Ph.D. are incredibly smart and talented but in truth it is the individual that has potential, not the degree.
To answer your question, I want something else but I was confused whether a Ph. D. would be a requirement which is why I dwelled and lost time there.

I was thinking behaviorism might play a role here. You take a job because you need to pay the bills but you intend to move to something you are more interested in down the road because of whatever mechanism that will allow you to do that. While at this job being INTJ you end up being one of the best. You boss praises you, you are indispensable, get heavier work loads because even though you don't care or don't like the job you are going to be good at it. INTJism. This doesn't mean you are the best you could be at the job. Why waste more energy than you have to?
I think the praise meets a twisted social need. At this job you are valuable. You don't know what you will be at the next job. So you stay. But, you can't shake a feeling of being lost. Something that just isn't right.

Hopefully that clarifies the nature of my question even though it is verbose.
I think you've got yourself a reliable answer!

Also, if you're at a bad job and you hate it, you need to change your perspective and fake liking it (find better methods for productivity, promotions, and anywhere that can speed up the process). Once that is done, you plan ahead so you can screw this job once you reached your potential to do something you always wanted.

________

I've done the stereotypical INTJ thing -I got my PhD in physics in breakneck pace (I was 26). Then I joined a trading firm as a researcher, which is also quite INTJ. I'm sure INTJ is one of the most common types here - maybe there are more ENTJs, but I for instance am sure that all my team except for 1 are INTJs, and the other guy is I think an ISTJ.

As for lost, once I've filled my pockets to last me the rest of my life, I'll likely do something very different, maybe raise rheas.
You reminded me of my boss at a asset mgmt company when I was an Intern. He was a holder of Ph. D. in Physics and went into Finance. I never quite understood why he did that. If I were take a guess, he was lured in by the money. Granted he is making a lot of money, I knew it is not something he seemed fond and interested of. I'm sure he was a INTJ. When I looked at the company team, I saw that most of them had physics degrees (2 Ph. D., 1 candidate, rest B.S. physics equivalent).

So what was it that drew you away from physics? Are you truly interested in science (physics) or you did it for other reasons? I never had to courage to ask my boss (back then I didn't know about the straight forwardness of INTJs and MBTI) why he did what he did.
 

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You reminded me of my boss at a asset mgmt company when I was an Intern. He was a holder of Ph. D. in Physics and went into Finance. I never quite understood why he did that. If I were take a guess, he was lured in by the money. Granted he is making a lot of money, I knew it is not something he seemed fond and interested of. I'm sure he was a INTJ. When I looked at the company team, I saw that most of them had physics degrees (2 Ph. D., 1 candidate, rest B.S. physics equivalent).
For me, the fact that no one seemed to truly understand options was the thing that put me in that market. Unlike physics, where it seems most cool stuff has been found, especially if you consider the practically important things, math finance is new, vibrant, exiting, and generally cool.

Also, the fact you easily make 5 times more than in physics helps. Each of those reasons would have been enough really.
 

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Agreed. Life..... and being told in a repetitive manner by your parents (and everyone else) that because they can't understand you that you simply must buckle under and conform.
I want to fucking kill all those ignorant idiots who think they know what's normal and what you're supposed to do. It's my goddamn life and I will do with it whatever the hell I want.. you don't see me walking around telling people to behave more like me because that's what I do.:angry:

Sorry I got a little enraged there...

And off topic...

I apologize...
 

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When I was about 11 years old, I had a school counselor ask me what I wanted to be when I grew up.

This is how the conversation went:

Counselor: "You can be whatever you want to be when you grow up."

Me: "No I can't. And whomever told you that is delusional and full of shit."

I had after school detention the next day for that one...

I remember thinking what a fool she was for actually believing that. She had a very faulty calculation for how life works in my opinion. She did not account for 1) the actions of others affecting your life choices, 2) free will, 3) chance, 4) the possibility of death.

In a perfect world where everyone leads a perfect life and never makes any mistakes, then sure, all little kids can and would grow up to be whatever they wanted to be. But get real right?

Sorry to be a party pooper and throw a wrench into it, but I'm just keeping it real, and calling it how I've always seen it at the very base, the core, of what it is. Now if you'll excuse me I need to get back to the imaginary life inside of my head where I don't work for Walmart, where I instead have won the lottery and I'm on vacation in Fiji while they are building my 5th mansion... :happy:
 

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Agreed. Life... and a bankruptcy in a country where it's for life... unless you go through a two year legal process, have wife and children (to get an acceptable settlement) and an additional five years of income after deduction equivalent to living on social welfare.
I didn't make friends at work as I wasn't interested in soccer and as a teetotal had no interest in getting drunk in the weekends. I've been able to distance myself from this by being on the road somewhere in the world more than 15 of the last 20 years. The last two years haven't worked too well.
 
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