[Obscure]

Hello everyone,
Quick question,
Can someone understand or explain how is it possible to have literally "hubris" yet no self confidence

Thank you,
Obscure

 

[Scytherer]

I read somewhere else another INTJ saying "I have poor self-esteem, yet I think I'm better than the rest"

I think this is very common to INTJs, as in, if you were to rate people on a 1-10 scale, you would rate yourself between 3 and 10, but would consider people around 1 or 2.

But then again it could be very stereotypical. I know it applies to some of us, not to every one of us.​

 

[Maximus Deus]

"I'm a shitty person, but I'm still better than those around me."

As mentioned above, this seems to be a common theme among many types, and especially INTJs. I don't know if there's a logical explanation for it, but I do admit that it's a mentality that I (occasionally) live with.

 

[Frenetic Tranquility]

This is easy to explain. Ni hyper focuses on areas for improvement, so it's keyed into recognizing perceived flaws. Of course everyone is flawed, including the self. So it turns into "I suck, but you suck more."

 

[Pinkachu]

Pride is an easy mechanism for concealing painful insecurities. It acts as a mask to hide those most vulnerable parts that we fear would shrivel up and disappear.
Children of a Lesser God discusses this idea when Sarah Norman, a deaf custodian, talks about refusing to feel pain after years of abuse and isolation because of her deafness. If you enjoy art as a means of insight, I'd really recommend watching that movie. Deaf/HOH or not, its messages about hubris, pain, and vulnerability ring strong today.

Look at this clip to know more:

 

[Obscure]

@Pinkachu

That's actually quite logical.
So basically pride is a mask which means someone without real self confidence or self esteem...woah seriously this is too depressing to admit XD

 

[ScarlettHayden]

Unhealthy pride is is actually the same as low self-esteem but it manifests in an inverse way. It's like trying to make up for what you feel you don't have. You have a lack.. so you try to fill it in with 'more', which results with a largely blown up ego.

 

[Pinkachu]

@Pinkachu

That's actually quite logical.
So basically pride is a mask which means someone without real self confidence or self esteem...woah seriously this is too depressing to admit XD

It's painfully hard, but you can come back up from it once you let yourself hit bottom. Been there, done that, so many times before. Pride often protects us from truths so painful that we fear we would die if we admitted them. I've been in this position before, but I came out alive shortly after. Having a lot of support from friends and family helped. Anybody who can admit to this painful truth can make it out alive, if they have the right support system.

 

[lmrx]

As pinkachu pointed put, it's a mask. it starts when as a child's needs (his needs to belong and to be accepted, and to be unconditionally loved) are conditioned. when he starts to form the belief that he gets love and is accepted into the family only if he behaves in a specific manner and be someone specific. if he does this or be that he is unworthy of love and belonging, and he will be punished.

When the child grows up, the authoritative figures of his caretakers will rule his subconscious. he believes that being himself is bad and punishable, that his true, authentic self is of no value and unworthy, and he has to hide it (so low self-esteem). he also believes that in order to be accepted into society he has to do that something or be that someone. for example he tries to be more than human. he looks at his peers and can't rest until he assures himself (or subconscious figures of his caretakers) that he is playing the game right, that he is quieter/smarter/more hardworking than every other child.

this is the foundation of what John Bradshaw has called "Toxic Shame". I strongly recommend reading the book "Healing the Shame that binds you" or at least googling its name. it's a must read.

And I think it should not be mistaken with personality profiles. it's like mistaking ADHDs for INTPs, or jerks for ENTJs

 

[Scytherer]

Also, as a competitor (in video games), I noticed something else that might answer @Obscure 's question.

When I was a beginner, I couldn't really see what a world champion did better than me, because I had limited knowledge therefore limited analysis of others.

Since I couldn't know what this world champ did better than me, I could think that I actually would be as good as him.

Since I got better at the game I do competitions in, I realised some advanced things that I use, but it usually comes like "for 1 thing that you learn, you understand that you have yet to master 9 things", and the more you progress in, the more you understand that you're actually bad compared to a theorical "perfect" performer.

I am not sure this is really easy to get... What I mean is like, when you first start psychology, you can be like "oh I know everything about mental illnesses, I know psychology perfectly", and then you learn that other things exist, such as social psychology, experimental psychology, cognitive psychology and so on. And as you advance in one specialized topic, you realise you passed on the rest of all subjects, which explains why more knowledge means feeling flawed.

But INTJs could be rational and know that even if they lack a looooot of knowledge, they still know better than most, which explains that behaviour.

Sorry if the message wasn't that clear, let me know if you need me to reword :/​

 

[Obscure]

It's painfully hard, but you can come back up from it once you let yourself hit bottom. Been there, done that, so many times before. Pride often protects us from truths so painful that we fear we would die if we admitted them. I've been in this position before, but I came out alive shortly after. Having a lot of support from friends and family helped. Anybody who can admit to this painful truth can make it out alive, if they have the right support system.

What if I've let myself hit the darkest pits of rock bottom before... and it wasn't a long time ago. Meanwhile I've lost myself completely and the only support system I had was me and PerC blessing.
You can get out alive but you can never get out into a totally different person. Like transform from INTJ into ENFP. It.is.impossible.

 

[Obscure]

As pinkachu pointed put, it's a mask. it starts when as a child's needs (his needs to belong and to be accepted, and to be unconditionally loved) are conditioned. when he starts to form the belief that he gets love and is accepted into the family only if he behaves in a specific manner and be someone specific. if he does this or be that he is unworthy of love and belonging, and he will be punished.

When the child grows up, the authoritative figures of his caretakers will rule his subconscious. he believes that being himself is bad and punishable, that his true, authentic self is of no value and unworthy, and he has to hide it (so low self-esteem). he also believes that in order to be accepted into society he has to do that something or be that someone. for example he tries to be more than human. he looks at his peers and can't rest until he assures himself (or subconscious figures of his caretakers) that he is playing the game right, that he is quieter/smarter/more hardworking than every other child.

this is the foundation of what John Bradshaw has called "Toxic Shame". I strongly recommend reading the book "Healing the Shame that binds you" or at least googling its name. it's a must read.

And I think it should not be mistaken with personality profiles. it's like mistaking ADHDs for INTPs, or jerks for ENTJs

Hello lmrx,
Your first two paragraphs sank me in further introspection for an entire day. It actually makes perfect sense; if only I was illuminated by this simple fact before. MOST of The torturing voices in my head are then manifestations of my parents. Therefore even if I leave them, their manifestations will eternally inhabit my psych. AWESOME!!

Uhmm I'm not really bound with "shame" I mean if I had it, at least I would have had the decency to... not do certain things.
Overall thank you for your helpful post.

 

[Obscure]

Also, as a competitor (in video games), I noticed something else that might answer @Obscure 's question.

When I was a beginner, I couldn't really see what a world champion did better than me, because I had limited knowledge therefore limited analysis of others.

Since I couldn't know what this world champ did better than me, I could think that I actually would be as good as him.

Since I got better at the game I do competitions in, I realised some advanced things that I use, but it usually comes like "for 1 thing that you learn, you understand that you have yet to master 9 things", and the more you progress in, the more you understand that you're actually bad compared to a theorical "perfect" performer.

I am not sure this is really easy to get... What I mean is like, when you first start psychology, you can be like "oh I know everything about mental illnesses, I know psychology perfectly", and then you learn that other things exist, such as social psychology, experimental psychology, cognitive psychology and so on. And as you advance in one specialized topic, you realise you passed on the rest of all subjects, which explains why more knowledge means feeling flawed.

But INTJs could be rational and know that even if they lack a looooot of knowledge, they still know better than most, which explains that behaviour.

Sorry if the message wasn't that clear, let me know if you need me to reword :/​

Knowledge is ignorance of what we don't know.

 

[L'Enfant Terrible]

Hello everyone,
Quick question,
Can someone understand or explain how is it possible to have literally "hubris" yet no self confidence

Thank you,
Obscure

This phenomenon happens when one has very high standards both for oneself and others. You try to raise to your expectations but fail miserably therefore increasing self-doubt and decreasing self-esteem. At the same time, your miserable failure is still better than most people's success, so you feel somewhat superior to others.

 

[Pinkachu]

What if I've let myself hit the darkest pits of rock bottom before... and it wasn't a long time ago. Meanwhile I've lost myself completely and the only support system I had was me and PerC blessing.
You can get out alive but you can never get out into a totally different person. Like transform from INTJ into ENFP. It.is.impossible.

Been there, done that--sometimes, right when you think you've hit bottom, you've still got a very long way to go. You're right that you can't get out a totally different person, but you also can't come out the same person either. I'd never expect you to go from an INTJ to an ENFP (that would almost be giving into your shadow side). Take a look at this quote from the official MBTI site on switching types: " consider how long ago you took the MBTI assessment and whether your life circumstances have changed dramatically since then. Generally, because the MBTI tool measures inherent preferences, there is no need to take it multiple times. However, if your life has changed significantly, you might find it helpful to take it again. In addition, the newer forms of the MBTI assessment are based on the latest research, so if it has been several years since you took the assessment, you might consider retaking it. "

I mention this quote because, while it's rare to switch types, it happens, and I'm living proof of it. The rock bottom that almost killed me actually caused me to switch types as things got better. I went from an INFJ to an ENFP after admitting to myself that 9 hearing restoration surgeries failed, and that I was going to be disabled for the rest of my life. That was rock bottom for me, but it took me about two years of falling to realize it. At first, I thought my rock bottom was when surgery #8 failed, and the doctor told me, "I've only see this happen in two other patients." Every single day between surgery #8 and surgery #9, when nobody knew whether or not my disability was going to be permanent, I contemplated suicide because I couldn't handle the thought of being "damaged", "broken", "retarded", "stupid" "handicapped", and all the other lovely names given to me because of my hearing problems. I thought that was rock bottom until surgery #9 happened, and it took me a year to figure out it had failed too. By then, my pride had been so destroyed that I didn't care about being disabled and needing a hearing aid.

Losing my pride opened up access to the world that I did initially understand, caused my grades to literally double, and give me a whole world of opportunities I never would have had otherwise. I thought the world was going to end if I lost my pride about "not being a retard", but honestly, it just began for me. Shortly after, my I and my J changed from an E to a P. I don't know what your rock bottom is, nor am I saying change your type. I quite like INTJs, and I wouldn't want you to lose the good parts of being an INTJ. That said, I wouldn't consider change while climbing out of rock bottom an impossibility either. Whether or not your type changes, something about your life must change radically to get out of rock bottom. Some things will never change, hence my staying a strong NF even after getting a hearing aid. Some things have to, or you'll (figuratively or literally, depending on the circumstance) lose your life. It's only in working to get out of rock bottom that you figure out what needs to change and what's good to keep.

Maybe, this time around, you need a different support system than you think, or maybe you're underestimating what you're capable of doing. At the bare minimum, you've got a lot of support on this thread, hence all of us stepping up and being here for you. Perhaps this is me being a bit overly optimistic as well, but I believe you can do this. I believe you can get yourself out of rock bottom and make things better. Sure, it will hurt along the way, but once it's over, you'll be so much stronger for having survived it. Never forget that the people of PerC are here for you if you want us, and that the INTJ members are some of the most supportive people you'll ever come across--hence my constantly visiting the INTJ forum.

P.S., if you ever want to talk outside of PerC, PM me for my Skype. I love adding new PerC members.

 

[Obscure]

This phenomenon happens when one has very high standards both for oneself and others. You try to raise to your expectations but fail miserably therefore increasing self-doubt and decreasing self-esteem. At the same time, your miserable failure is still better than most people's success, so you feel somewhat superior to others.

Interesting... Seriously, makes perfect sense.
Though I don't perfectly get the last sentence... Why would someone find him/herself's miserable failure better than other person's success

 

[L'Enfant Terrible]

Interesting... Seriously, makes perfect sense.
Though I don't perfectly get the last sentence... Why would someone find him/herself's miserable failure better than other person's success

let me give you a quick example : person A thinks winning third place is failure while for person B the mere thought of even being nominated is success. Person A wins third place while person B wins nothing. Person B is content with his failure while person A feels like he's failed miserably, but at the same time feels superior to person B.

maybe not the best example ever but will do.

 

[Obscure]

let me give you a quick example : person A thinks winning third place is failure while for person B the mere thought of even being nominated is success. Person A wins third place while person B wins nothing. Person B is content with his failure while person A feels like he's failed miserably, but at the same time feels superior to person B.

maybe not the best example ever but will do.

Indeed. Thank you for re-explaining

 

[L'Enfant Terrible]

Indeed. Thank you for re-explaining

You're welcome. Although I'm not sure if you're making fun of me or just being a decent human being.

 

[lmrx]

Therefore even if I leave them, their manifestations will eternally inhabit my psych.

exactly. and for me that's the most terrifying part. the harder we try to push this manifestations out, the quicker we fail.

Uhmm I'm not really bound with "shame" I mean if I had it, at least I would have had the decency to... not do certain things.

yep. as a general term we define shame as a painful emotion that forces us to conform and be MORAL. but Bradshaw defines it as a state of being:

Shame is the fear of disconnection—it’s the fear that something we’ve done or failed to do, an ideal that we’ve not lived up to, or a goal that we’ve not accomplished makes us unworthy of connection. …I’m unlovable. I don’t belong. Here’s the definition of shame that emerged from my research.