Personality Cafe banner

Lying by Omission .....Honestly...Truley

2655 Views 32 Replies 15 Participants Last post by  shoot4thestars
I was getting all into it in another forum about the merits
of lying via omission.

First: Is lying by omission indeed a lie?

Second: Do you apply this to your day to day.

Third: What are your thoughts on this in emotional relationships
meaning; significant others, kids, family....etc etc ...


The point was brought up by @briebo1 that we as ENTP will
traverse every option to a problem or question to ascertain the
best results and move forward. Furthermore it was mentioned
that lies by omission are not necessary and indeed frowned upon
to forum a healthy emotional relationship by said @briebo1.

My argument was that if we as ENTP are in a position that
we must have an answer for someone we care about and we
know a course of action may lead to a better outcome for them we
will pass on false information on occasion to skew the outcome in
our own favor. And/or to save them some sort of trauma by
misdirection through a lie via omission. Even if the truth hurts
as they say, we will dodge that for whatever reason.

This makes us lie.

I disagree that omission is not a lie.

If we know better and we do not represent that then we are
lying.

This is not to say that it is a bad thing. I have never thought of lies
as good or bad but necessary.

I will get into more specifics and instances as the thread continues.
See less See more
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
INFJ here. I twist the meaning of sentences or lie by omission often. Legalistic twisted logic makes me feel safe and "fair".
"I didn't say that. That's something you came up on your own. Don't assume things."
  • Like
Reactions: 1
lying by omission is similar to obstruction of justice/withholding information when it comes to courts of law....except when it comes to an individual they are both the judge and jury so there's less of a chance of sliding on some technical legality and it's also different because what's in question is not so much whether or not you get punished for withholding that info as it is a matter of whether or not that person is still going to trust you. Omission is easier than direct lying and you could argue isn't the same thing, but either one is deceit and risks losing another's trust and damaging a relationship.


Personally I think when it comes to lying and questioning the morality of actions motivation is significant...are you lying out of weakness (because of anxiety of confronting a situation) or because strategically its the best thing to do (example white lies, or waiting til a less precarious situation to disclose info)... when there's a reasonable/strategic explanation why you withheld info then it's also easier to gain forgiveness for doing so...whereas if you just did it out of weakness then it's harder to continue to trust you won't pussy out of confronting a situation and cause harm in the future.
See less See more
Well since I was mentioned here I will respond.

1) Not technically. Is it a deception yes. And as to deception it is defined by intent and situational factors IMO. Like I said in the other thread I think it is a form of withholding intimacy, you are not letting someone into your real thoughts, actions etc. so they can't know the real you if you are lying by omission in some sort of regular fashion.

2) Well yeah. I don't make attempts to lie or deceive usually as to actual relationships, but with people not close to me like in work for example well yeah there are plenty of things I choose not to share with them and they may assume things I don't try to correct. It is really nobody's business to know every detail of my thoughts and my life. Though I am largely an open book on some levels compared to most people, well there are parts of me and my past that others may not look too kindly on and you don't get to know certain things about me and how I think in every aspect until I want to be closer to you and until I consider your knowledge of certain things would not be a threat. And yeah in my past when young when you had authority over you in a way I certainly did my fair share of lying by omission, but as an adult well I just don't feel other people have some sort of control of my fate in many ways so the need to do that pretty much largely dissipated with age, or could have been maturity, I just have not felt that up against the wall sort of need to squirm myself out of a quandary as an adult, but if I found myself there I probably would employ a lie of omission if it was beneficial, but again these would be in situations where intimacy wasn't at all desired.

3) This one is harder. I think for many people there are a lot of lies of omission in relationships especially in the beginning of a relationship for example, people try to put their best face forward, and may withhold stuff about themselves that they know may be relevant to the other person. Is this outright deception? In a way it could be looked at that way, I mean I am the opposite I usually like to put every negative thing about me out there first lol so I don't waste my time, but I can see why people would have fears and maybe withhold certain details for whatever reason.

So today I have a first date in essence. It is with a massage therapist I have been seeing for a year and a half. I usually don't talk much during massages, but me and him started talking and really hit it off and have been having this great continuing conversation. REALLY getting to know each other, in ways some of our conversation was like a confession booth where you don't mind spilling your guts to an extent on something because you don't actually know this person IRL sort of thing. Well I have seen that romance might be in the cards here for awhile. And being very future oriented I thought through all of the possibilities here - and there are some very good ones with this guy that I can see right off the bat I think, which isn't often that way with me, and makes me think I should pursue this. Now, I am technically single, when early on he asked if I was seeing anyone I said no, though that isn't quite the full story. Am I single in the normal sense of the word where my heart is not somewhat involved with another man. No. I have failed to mention details about my current romantic mind, not out of deception just somehow it never came up and he never asked directly, it was kind of about the past and the future in theory but not much of the actual present in our conversations. So I have an ex that I am still involved with to an extent, though I don't ever see getting back together, I have imagined a "single" future where he is part of it though that seems intriguing. I also met a guy a year and a half ago traveling for work, he blew my socks off, the connection was insane. We live clear across the country in demanding jobs though we are working together in a remote fashion. He plans to move out where I live for work in about a year when this job is done, and then maybe we can see if there is something there to pursue. Though we have had some intimate contact via the phone and texting here and there, we are trying for the most part to keep this professional for now. My feelings for this guy that something may never even happen with had me deciding before my MT asked me out to say no when our relationship veered into this territory, it didn't seem fair to him since my heart is kind of split up in different directions right now. But after a great session when he asked I just really wanted to spend time with him more, and I am attracted to him and I really like him as a person, saying an enthusiastic yes to an outing was just autonomic and being authentic because I do want to spend some time with him.

Now at some point I will have to open up about where my heart has kind of been over the past year. Is that information I want to get into right away. Not really. That is kind of lying by omission because the fact that I am currently not 100% emotionally available might make him decide he doesn't want to pursue things with me. But at the same time often to really get over something is to find something new, so it is possible this guy could blow these other men out of my thoughts with some time, in keeping this to myself for awhile this may not even prove to be an issue so why bring it up. And if I am not feeling this guy enough to let go of others, well I will break it off and tell him the reason why. He may feel he was lied to by omission at that point by wasting his time, but thinking you are being deceived really depends on the outcome where he probably wouldn't feel deceived if I was all in for him and worked through this instead of breaking things off if it got that far. I mean the whole line in Titanic that a woman's heart is an ocean of secrets lol, well right now at this stage of my life I feel like that is me, but in the movie I don't know that line wasn't really all bad just presented as a truth.

I have really been debating this for the past couple of months knowing a date was coming eventually - give full honesty (which is usually what I would do and let the chips fall where they may) or withhold my emotional messiness for a little while to see if it is really an issue and don't jump the gun in going there. I mean it is not like there is any real physical presence right now in my life that I am really involved with. Though I do feel a certain amount of deception in that he may not have ever asked me out if he knew more about my current romantic mind, but hey that may not even be true and he could be fine with it and just taking things easy see where things go no problems. I mean how can you often even know if some piece of info you may be withholding would be vital for someone else to know in their decision making or not sometimes? And the truth is I plan to withhold this for awhile for my own selfish reasons, I want to see if there is anything here, even if I am torn right now in my feelings and in some ways don't even feel emotionally available. I don't want to unnecessarily blow things up with something that could blow over in time if things progress pretty well. So there is motive to this withholding on my end, I do want in the meantime for a guy to think I am 100% emotionally available like a normal single person. And if this is good, bad, necessary well that all depends on the outcome really. If things don't work out it will be like I withheld important information about me, if they do I may have not scared off a guy who there was a future with unnecessarily and he may appreciate that I withheld certain details in the beginning that would have steered him away from pursuing me.

So yeah in intimate relationships, well sometimes it is hard to define a lie of omission as good bad or necessary IMO. It really depends on the situation, and though withholding can be deception well sometimes it is understandable and it is something everyone does to one degree or another in more intimate relationships, ENTPs do not have this area cornered, and the further along you get the more you open up and there can certainly be surprises with folks sometimes. And I think lies of omission get worse in degree directly based on how intimate two people are with each other as a deciding factor, how high are the expectations on each other for intimacy, and I think two people can be on different pages as to what level of intimacy and honesty is owed creating some problems sometimes where someone feels lied to and another doesn't feel that their withholding of something was a crime. The "wrongness" of a lie of omission often from the receiver is related to the entitlement of what they think they are owed. The "wrongness" of a lie of omission by the giver is often related to how important in the current scheme of things is something to be divulged and how much intimacy is judged to be there.

They often with the lie of omission use the car salesman who fails to divulge an important piece of info about the car. He knows 100% that that piece of info would be of the utmost importance to the buyer. In intimate relationships it just isn't that simple often IMO. And though I have usually been a person that is all for this 100% full honesty all of the time, well I have had instances in my life where I have gone against that for whatever good reason and it usually wasn't just thought to be good for me but for both parties in the end. I have never purposefully deceived in some sort major way. I mean anyone pulling the equivalent of the car salesman omission in an intimate relationship I would consider a major deception on par with the outright deception an actual lie is, but in most healthy intimate relationship lies of omission are usually not on that sort of scale IME.

I think telling an actual lie is usually always a bad thing (unless it is the white lie of course you don't look fat in those jeans territory lol).
That is because you are painting a picture of reality with concrete facts that are not real. But a lie of omission creates a grey area IMO, and plus if you trust the used car salesman without doing any due diligence you are an idiot. If you asked the right questions he wouldn't have lied. So as an ENTP I love gray areas lol, something isn't defined as a certainty completely yet, there is possibility to explore new info, there is reason to look into something further. Someone isn't closing the door on a path of inquiry completely with a lie of omission, which is why not just technically but even in theory they are not on the same level as a an actual lie to me. And I think intimacy is kind of a two way street, if you want it you have to ask in some respect you can't just put it on another person to give you every piece of information about themselves all of the time so you never feel left out of the loop. Kind of like buying the lemon car from the used car salesman, it takes two to make that transaction go down and one made a lot of assumptions and did no due diligence. Where if someone believes an actual lie from a person they expect to be honest with their response, well then I really don't see much fault on their part as I do place in negative consequences for a person as to a lie of omission in some instances. To a certain degree even in intimate relationships it is partly on us sometimes to ask direct questions and not live in the field of assumptions, and for any lie of omission to work well they need a person to make an assumption without direct evidence. And you know what they say about assumptions . . .
See less See more
@briebo1

So... in reading your post which by the way is thorough
to the point of semantic confusion I can pull
out that yes you do indeed use lies of omission in your
current quasi relationships.
I am a simple man.

Which brings me back to what I would really
like to kinda clear up.

Masters of intuition have far more insight into
how realities are going to develop. Point of
fact ..no?

If we skew that reality (and we do..its human)
for individual gain over emotionally charged relationships
as you did with the MT then we are changing the forward
reality of said relationship for our own betterment.
Not theirs.
Period.
We can assume they didnt need to know the truth of it.
We can assume they may come out of it okay.
We can assume all day and all of the night.
At the end of the day we deceived/lied/omitted
pertinent information that would help that individual
make a more sound decision moving forward for
their own reality.

Lets say for example that the MT knew you had an
quasi relationship at distance. Would this not
give him the rightful option to decide to fight or flight?
You in essence have taken that from him.
How do you think that benefits?

I agree with lies by omission so I am totally agreeing with
how you approached it but we justify it as something it is not.

Wordplay, semantics, debating skills.. none of your business.
ENTP are great at this I would argue that we can make
a trade out of it and quite often do.

It is almost the definition of ENTP.

Yes I am open and honest about things I very rarely out right lie.
But omission and wordplay and all the rest are some of
the sharpest knives in my drawer.

I do want to have a few to go over your post
a little more but alas ..my poutine is done and
I guess I have to get atleast some work done today :/
See less See more
Well I don't think a connection made over a year and a half ago, some flirtatious phone convos or texts here and there, and a possibility that maybe just maybe I could actually live physically near this person and possibly take them seriously to be a quasi-relationship. That just comes down to what I would consider pertinent. And no I don't think I need to explain every detail of where my emotions are at with distant possibilities in my life prior to a first date so he can make an informed decision to take me out. I wouldn't even think that he would need that info after maybe three dates, I mean I could after one date decide we are just friends territory and that is fine, but I at least should give it a shot IMO, there are a lot of good things here. I mean everyone is carrying around some type of emotional baggage, if we all revealed every little thing that could make us undatable in a person's eyes there wouldn't be very many first dates IMO. And considering he is well acquainted about so many negative things about me as a romantic partner (well maybe in some people's eyes) he still wants to take me out? So there is a chance it wouldn't make a bit of difference to him, it is not like he is under any illusions about a lot of things in my life that some other person might try to whitewash at first.

So yeah different strokes for different folks as to what we would view as pertinent at a certain stage of intimacy. I have a little more to say on what you said, but no time now, maybe I will finish my thoughts tomorrow :)
See less See more
So yeah different strokes for different folks as to what we would view as pertinent at a certain stage of intimacy. I have a little more to say on what you said, but no time now, maybe I will finish my thoughts tomorrow :)
Great minds think alike ;)

enjoy the afternoon.

Anytime you want me to argue the opposite to my point of
view as it is today just let me know!
i believe the only necessary point of discussion here is the moral status of deception. what lies behind a lie (ayy lmao) is the intent to deceive. whether you are deceptive by omitting information or by deliberately giving misinformation is secondary to whether or not deception is a morally reprehensible action.

i believe the argument that deception is an amoral concept that can be used for good and evil alike has already been made, so I will leave it at that.
Lying by omission isn't lying...
Its just not telling what they didn't ask for *shrugs*
@nujabes
@unoriginal ....well your handle says it all ...no? Although in your defense you where the first one liner.
Haaazaaa
@GIA Diamonds


Yes very open ended topic to be sure.
Which is why I did not omit the 3 tier question(s).

K back to @briebo1

Sup?

I will elaborate on said "Sup?" post narcotics.
See less See more
Lying by omission isn't lying...
a lie is any statement made with the intention of being deceptive, misleading, inaccurate, or false. if one omits information with the intention of being deceptive, misleading, inaccurate, or false, then that statement is a lie.

where do you disagree?
But if nothing is said out loud is that still a statement? Maybe it's an internal statement ha

I was wrong here is dictionary.com's 7th definition of a statement: the communication of an idea, position, mood, or the like through something other than words:
The furniture in the room makes a statement about the occupant's love of color. Walking out of the meeting will be a statement of our refusal to submit. (their example sentence for your convenience)
  • Like
Reactions: 2
a lie is any statement made with the intention of being deceptive, misleading, inaccurate, or false. if one omits information with the intention of being deceptive, misleading, inaccurate, or false, then that statement is a lie.

where do you disagree?
You cant front on the tribe ;)

Interesting tidbit off topic but
not to often do I see Brooklyn Zoo fans.

Atleast up my way.


Anyhow, I was going to a beastie boys / tribe
concert around 99 I think. Could have been 98.

It was the concert they cancelled right before they broke up.
Molson Park in Barrie Ontario.

I found out the day of the concert that they cancelled :(
I always regret never getting a chance to see tribe live.

Admittedly Rap leaves a bit to be desired live
but given the jazz flow to tribe it would have been
great. Biz Markie took there spot and spun some records.
Beastie Boys where mahhh OK I guess.


Anyhow I took all that from your signature line I may have
misunderstood as I cant see the whole thing.
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: 1
First: Is lying by omission indeed a lie?
@nujabes convinced me that at least in matters of its definition it is.

Second: Do you apply this to your day to day.
Yeah I do. Sometimes it's because I don't want to hurt other's feelings, sometimes it's for personal gain/makes my life easier.. I don't find it the most moral thing to do but I do it unconsciously almost. :/ It's usually petty everyday things which doesn't lead to guilt for me. A few times I've thought things out and those make me feel a little guilt.

Third: What are your thoughts on this in emotional relationships meaning; significant others, kids, family....etc etc ...
I value trust in a relationship a lot. I can usually tell when someone is lying to me on the spot. Occasionally, I catch myself realizing the lie later almost intuitively. I'm guessing something must bother me subconsciously and I end up thinking about it.. then, all of a sudden, POOF! Wow that was a lie. A lot of times I rationalize it out later when this happens. I'm not sure if I would care too much if they left out unimportant things, but anything worth saying I would feel the need to hear.
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: 1
I value trust in a relationship a lot.
OK so at what point is a breech of trust a problem?

I agree with you as well. I have trust issues but I believe it is more inline
with my control issues. Almost as if I cant trust items/people I cant control.
As if to say, if they do not make the decisions that I would have it may be
an issue. -Sounds extreme but I do not take it to that level.

So where I am going with this is; If by omission a partner conveniently
forgets to tell you they cant lets say ... cross borders due to a
past charge or something like that and you love them been with them
for awhile and you bring up the fact that you want to go to France.
They then bust out that gem about being charged.

Would you consider yourself lied to?

... would this create trust issues?

I mean this is their past..you like/love them for who they are now.
If you never asked should they have offered that up before it became
necessary?
See less See more
Yes it is equal to straight-up lying, in the same way as any knowing inaction that leads to harm is just as bad as any knowing action that leads to harm is equal.

Not handing out information isn't lying. But deceiving others by holding back information comes down to the same thing. If we were in a cabin in the middle of the woods, and I ask you 'Is there something dangerous at the back door?' and you say 'No' because there isn't just one thing, but several dangerous things, you are still as responsible for my mauling if I go outside as if you'd said 'No, nothing.'. If I hadn't asked, you would be free of responsibility.
  • Like
Reactions: 1
Yes it is equal to straight-up lying, in the same way as any knowing inaction that leads to harm is just as bad as any knowing action that leads to harm is equal.

Not handing out information isn't lying. But deceiving others by holding back information comes down to the same thing. If we were in a cabin in the middle of the woods, and I ask you 'Is there something dangerous at the back door?' and you say 'No' because there isn't just one thing, but several dangerous things, you are still as responsible for my mauling if I go outside as if you'd said 'No, nothing.'. If I hadn't asked, you would be free of responsibility.
Seems to be the going constant that
most of us do indeed believe omission is a lie.

I would like to hear back from the one liners about how
they can justify it not being a lie.
@GIA Diamonds @unoriginal
@briebo1 is forming up some good counter points for the other side...thanks for that.


This will most likely turn into: at what point omission comes in to play
as appose to if it is or is not a lie.
See less See more
OK so at what point is a breech of trust a problem?

I agree with you as well. I have trust issues but I believe it is more inline
with my control issues. Almost as if I cant trust items/people I cant control.
As if to say, if they do not make the decisions that I would have it may be
an issue. -Sounds extreme but I do not take it to that level.

So where I am going with this is; If by omission a partner conveniently
forgets to tell you they cant lets say ... cross borders due to a
past charge or something like that and you love them been with them
for awhile and you bring up the fact that you want to go to France.
They then bust out that gem about being charged.

Would you consider yourself lied to?

... would this create trust issues?

I mean this is their past..you like/love them for who they are now.
If you never asked should they have offered that up before it became
necessary?
I think it depends on the intent of the lie which I think was mentioned already. I'll use the France example. If this was something that was ashamed of, or they are past it and wanted to leave it out of memory, and it is no longer a CURRENT ISSUE then I don't think it would effect much of anything. I would take my new knowledge into considerations for my decisions but I doubt it would effect my love for my partner.

Now, if I was not told of this for reasons to manipulate or deceive me I would have issues with it. Then it would depend on the severity of what this lie of omission was for how I reacted. It would really depend subjectively on each individual circumstance at this point. A lot of times I feel like certain things should bother me that don't, because it would bother others a great deal. I can usually see why people did what they did / said what they said and then I get it, so to speak.

If its a first offensive I'm more forgiving, but I eventually cut people out of my life if they are not good for me.

If i didn't answer your thought let me know and I'll have another go! I feel like I'm figuring myself out as I type so I am not sure how clear my thoughts are flowing.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
See less See more
Seems to be the going constant that
most of us do indeed believe omission is a lie.

I would like to hear back from the one liners about how
they can justify it not being a lie.
@GIA Diamonds @unoriginal
@briebo1 is forming up some good counter points for the other side...thanks for that.


This will most likely turn into: at what point omission comes in to play
as appose to if it is or is not a lie.
Like said earlier, from picking about the common English definition it seems to be a lie. What do people think about lying by omission on a good/bad level. Is it ok to do? Is it wrong/immoral?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top